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I think i am starting to really hate StarCraft II with this bully eSports force-feeding that is going on down. It is obvious that Blizzard is bluffing because if they aren't... well... douchebag crown of the universe is theirs for the taking.
P.S. Nice response from KeSPA and the Proteams. With such an attitude, we can all forget seeing current great SC:BW progamers in SCII because they will identify the game as "the enemy" of their current existential situation.
P.P.S. Blizzard, use your brains - not your economics/marketing team.
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On September 07 2010 15:51 T0fuuu wrote:
[...] PL, despite being a league that players and viewers dont really care abt. [...]
I cant believe someone wrote this.. You, sir, are either insane, or blatantly lying to yourself, or were born with an intelligence that make earthworms look like Einsteins in comparison. Thousands of fans came to watch Proleague finals live, hundreds of thousands of them watch them through TV or Livestream. Players practiced for MONTHS for it, giving it priority over both MSL n OSL.. And here you are saying that players and viewers dont care about it.. I am hoping that you can provide a single shed of proof in the form of anyone (outside of insane ones like yourself) saying that they do not care of Proleague.
GSL, being the new shiny thing needs to make a sound to be heard. its not gonna be heard if its put on at 10am or midnight. anyone can see this is a huge sign of disrespect to gsl and gom by the established scene. Considering gsl is also the current flagship of the sc2 scene it also is under huge pressure to succeed.
I think you got it wrong.. GSL in fact can broadcast during prime time.. They just know that they dont stand a fighting chance as their ball-vs-ball-after-20-minute gameplay cant even begin to compare to Brood War in all of its glory. Thats why they are trying to kill off competition through this underhanded means rather than competing openly. As a viewer, i would have thought that you would prefer the freedom to choose, rather than being forced to watch SC2 just cos there is no PL to be watched.
Lastly, i would like to mention the fact that GOM said they would like to do away with the current team format for e-Sports, and keep it to a everyman-for-himself tournament format. Other than some SC2 fans who are blinded by their shiny new toys, any other blind guy and his grandma can see that this is reverting e-Sport back to its infantile stage. Face it, even for top players, if one slump means no food and no shelter for the coming months (until you unslump), nobody is willing to devote all their time n effort to make a living out of this. And for lesser players who would nvr reach the top (read A-team standard but not S-class), theres no hope to make a living at all.. And if nobody makes a living out of it, its not a "sport".
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Kespa dont give a rat ass about sc2. Progamers dont give a rat ass about sc2. I dont give a rat ass about sc2 (i play sc2, and i still dont give a rat ass about it, its not as illogical as you think). gretech and blizzard can do w.e the fuck they want on their own tv network with sc2. nobody gives a rat ass. But to even suggest compromising broodwar on kespa's own tv networks just so sc2 can thrive can kiss my ass. And kiss my ass too to people who supports this idea or think this isn't ridiculous. I dont care who owns what or who's whose bitch this is just how i feel about this whole situation.
/end rage
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On September 07 2010 16:35 ffreakk wrote: I think you got it wrong.. GSL in fact can broadcast during prime time.. They just know that they dont stand a fighting chance as their ball-vs-ball-after-20-minute gameplay cant even begin to compare to Brood War in all of its glory. Thats why they are trying to kill off competition through this underhanded means rather than competing openly. As a viewer, i would have thought that you would prefer the freedom to choose, rather than being forced to watch SC2 just cos there is no PL to be watched.
Brood War's main appeal is definitely the fan base formed around the players. It's not hard to find someone to claim that Brood War is just flat out a better game, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one of them for every two in the bush watching high level SC2.
On September 07 2010 16:39 DatTheMighty wrote: Progamers dont give a rat ass about sc2.
You might want to explain that to JulyZerg and Nada, they didn't get the memo.
On September 07 2010 16:33 Usurper wrote: P.S. Nice response from KeSPA and the Proteams. With such an attitude, we can all forget seeing current great SC:BW progamers in SCII because they will identify the game as "the enemy" of their current existential situation. We should remember here that the people supporting this unified boycott are businessmen, the players are just the victims no matter which side you're watching from. There are plenty of players who would like to be able to play SC2, not to mention switch to it if it didn't jeopardize their livelihood.
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I just hope that Gretech/Blizzard will see what they are really doing and fix these wrong doings...
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It's not the fans or actually the game. ITS THE PLAYERS. KESPA HOLDS the players SO THEY hold my heart and my allegiance. Broodwar or Sc2 is pretty fuckign boring after watching like hundreds of games and actually playing. All sports are like this. And i dont give a fuck about other fans to be honest and i doubt other fans Give a fuck about me. I care about the players! And if other fans aren't fucking retards like some posters they care about the player much more than the games itself. I heard nada was playing sc2 i tune in right away, after the match was over i tuned off. Hell i'll even watch backho play sc2. I dont give a rat ass about idra to be honest or any other sc2 pros not because they aren't talented or w.e but i haven't connected with them like i do with KOREAN PROGAMERS. They can switch over to broodwar ( or should i say back) and i still wouldnt watch. Bottom line is ITS THE PLAYERS Not the game. KOREAN PROGAMERS 4 LIFE.
/tilt
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On September 07 2010 14:33 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 14:21 JayDee_ wrote:On September 07 2010 14:15 Milkis wrote:On September 07 2010 14:10 Tachion wrote:On September 07 2010 13:57 Milkis wrote:On September 07 2010 13:55 JayDee_ wrote: This is all Kespas fault for not negotiating with Blizzard in the first place. They tried to get something for nothing and now they have to take what they are given. Seems fair to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. Could you explain? I have pretty limited knowledge about this, but from what I heard, a long time ago Blizzard wanted compensation from Kespa for using Starcraft to rake in $, and Kespa told them to fuck off. I have little pity for Kespa if that is indeed the case, my pity would go out to all the BW pros who got fucked as collateral damage for Kespa's greediness. They don't give a damn who owns proleague, they don't give a damn who owns Starcraft, because no matter what they're gonna use it anyway with or without their permission, and it's finally going to bite them in the ass. That's my understanding of it anyway. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123275Money was never the problem, but the conditions/rights being demanded. I never said money was the issue. The issue has always been property rights which Kespa have ignored for years. You directly implied money was the issue.
Hrm after reading the first post... No, no I didn't.
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On September 07 2010 16:39 urashimakt wrote:
Brood War's main appeal is definitely the fan base formed around the players. It's not hard to find someone to claim that Brood War is just flat out a better game, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one of them for every two in the bush watching high level SC2.
I believe i have read many people claiming "i watch SC2 because im a new player and needed to learn the strategy, but i watch SC:BW because its just awesome to watch from a spectator PoV". So yes, even among SC2 viewers, there are in fact many that believe SC:BW is a better game.
There are plenty of players who would like to be able to play SC2
Until you can quote someone saying that they want to switch to pro-SC2, i ll have to treat it as a baseless claim that u cook up. And no, NADA were allowed to train for SC2 for 10 days before the show match.. So up until Blizz/Gretech elevate the situation to this level, players werent "strictly forbidden" to play SC2 in their spare time/holidays.
Regarding your response to sAAvior's post, i believe you are mistaking his point. What he is trying to say, is not whether changes are good, or bad, but whether companies should be allowed to force those changes on us viewers. If the new sport is better, it WILL get viewers, and more of them as time to come, since it is just better. You are arguing that GSL should be shown in the prime time slot since you are an SC2 fan, but you can always watch it im the Prime slot anyway, nobody stops you, and if there are many like you SC2 can grow. But forcing everyone else to follow suit even if they dont like it?
I would like to recycle my analogy in another post of mine:
If Blizz now make World of Starcraft and saying " We need all the current WoW servers for our new WoS, so WoW is no more.. So basically fk you and ur lvl 80 characters, and your hard-earned gears (accumulated after many months, even years), and honors, and achievements, and everything".. Will people still be saying these things like "the old must make space for the new", "its Blizzard's intellectual property, so they have rights"? I wonder..
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On September 07 2010 16:32 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 16:29 Novac wrote: I respect that Blizzard should get some sort of compensation for their game, although the increase in sales from it being on TV I would think would be enough. However, it seems obvious to me that eSports will never really thrive if a game company can claim Intellectual Property rights without limitation. This means that any game company will be able to just not sell the broadcasting rights whenever they feel like it. Like for instance if they had a sequel to the game coming out and wanted people to switch to the new game by killing the old. I'm not saying that this is exactly the motivation behind what Activision/Blizzard is doing here, but it very well could be. I like both SC:BW and SC2 but to be fair, SC:BW is an established eSports and if SC2 has potential to become an eSport as well, then it should be able to do so on it's own and not by forcing the best TV time slots. KeSPA might have done some pretty lame things in the past, but they really need to win the coming lawsuit for the good of all eSports. We're talking about the company that takes 10 years to release sequels, I don't think we need to worry about them pushing product faster than we can take it.
That is exactly what is happening. The eSports community surrounding SC:BW is clearly not dead but Activision/Blizzard is already very well engaged in "pushing product faster than we can take it". When talking eSports, SC:BW and SC2 are two very different things. It's like comparing soccer and handball. No one should be able to decide how their game is used. If they wanted full control over it, they should not have sold it to consumers. Instead of claiming IP rights, Activision/Blizzard should just have asked for compensation for continued support and patching of the game. If this was not about it being considered an eSport but rather someone had found a way to use the game to achieve world peace, then I bet you wouldn't want Activision/Blizzard to be able to pull the plug whenever they felt like it, simply because they wasn't happy with money they received for the 10 million copies they sold.
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Yes, change is a very scary thing. I can see here you're trying to sling anything you can to let us know how much you dislike SC2, but if there's one thing you shouldn't try to fault Blizzard on it is making a good game.
The players don't need to put on 250 pounds and slow down, they need to learn the new terms of engagement to the degree that only 10 years of practice can bring.
I am not afraid of new at all. I want normal free market competition though. In normal world it works like this: I promote my product, you promote yours and consumers decide which wins. If you try to promote your product by killing mine without asking consumers about their opinion it's not healthy situation.
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On September 07 2010 17:00 Novac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 16:32 urashimakt wrote:On September 07 2010 16:29 Novac wrote: I respect that Blizzard should get some sort of compensation for their game, although the increase in sales from it being on TV I would think would be enough. However, it seems obvious to me that eSports will never really thrive if a game company can claim Intellectual Property rights without limitation. This means that any game company will be able to just not sell the broadcasting rights whenever they feel like it. Like for instance if they had a sequel to the game coming out and wanted people to switch to the new game by killing the old. I'm not saying that this is exactly the motivation behind what Activision/Blizzard is doing here, but it very well could be. I like both SC:BW and SC2 but to be fair, SC:BW is an established eSports and if SC2 has potential to become an eSport as well, then it should be able to do so on it's own and not by forcing the best TV time slots. KeSPA might have done some pretty lame things in the past, but they really need to win the coming lawsuit for the good of all eSports. We're talking about the company that takes 10 years to release sequels, I don't think we need to worry about them pushing product faster than we can take it. That is exactly what is happening. The eSports community surrounding SC:BW is clearly not dead but Activision/Blizzard is already very well engaged in "pushing product faster than we can take it". When talking eSports, SC:BW and SC2 are two very different things. It's like comparing soccer and handball. No one should be able to decide how their game is used. If they wanted full control over it, they should not have sold it to consumers. Instead of claiming IP rights, Activision/Blizzard should just have asked for compensation for continued support and patching of the game. If this was not about it being considered an eSport but rather someone had found a way to use the game to achieve world peace, then I bet you wouldn't want Activision/Blizzard to be able to pull the plug whenever they felt like it, simply because they wasn't happy with money they received for the 10 million copies they sold. Yes, it would be awful if that were how Blizzard works. Yes, it's scary to think that a company could try to shut down something we like. That's not what I commented on, though. I only said that Blizzard has never operated like that and there's no reason to think they would in the future. I did not try to refute anything else.
On September 07 2010 17:06 sAAvior wrote:Show nested quote +Yes, change is a very scary thing. I can see here you're trying to sling anything you can to let us know how much you dislike SC2, but if there's one thing you shouldn't try to fault Blizzard on it is making a good game.
The players don't need to put on 250 pounds and slow down, they need to learn the new terms of engagement to the degree that only 10 years of practice can bring. I am not afraid of new at all. I want normal free market competition though. In normal world it works like this: I promote my product, you promote yours and consumers decide which wins. If you try to promote your product by killing mine without asking consumers about their opinion it's not healthy situation. Well, yes. Most people in the U.S. like that market. I think the point of contention there would be whether or not "you" (not really you) can sell footage of someone else's product and then get angry when the person who paid for that right tells "you" to stop. It's not really "your" product, it's someone else's.
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DIE GRETECH!!!!!
User was warned for this post
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Yeah, I am kind of getting sick of this shit. I honestly won't buy HotS if this keeps up. I don't care enough about sc2 to begin with but I would of done it just for the story mode. However at this rate I am just going to pirate the campaign at some point then just ignore the game entirely.
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DIE BLIZZARD!!!!
User was warned for this post
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On September 07 2010 16:55 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 16:39 urashimakt wrote:
Brood War's main appeal is definitely the fan base formed around the players. It's not hard to find someone to claim that Brood War is just flat out a better game, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one of them for every two in the bush watching high level SC2.
I believe i have read many people claiming "i watch SC2 because im a new player and needed to learn the strategy, but i watch SC:BW because its just awesome to watch from a spectator PoV". So yes, even among SC2 viewers, there are in fact many that believe SC:BW is a better game. Until you can quote someone saying that they want to switch to pro-SC2, i ll have to treat it as a baseless claim that u cook up. And no, NADA were allowed to train for SC2 for 10 days before the show match.. So up until Blizz/Gretech elevate the situation to this level, players werent "strictly forbidden" to play SC2 in their spare time/holidays. Regarding your response to sAAvior's post, i believe you are mistaking his point. What he is trying to say, is not whether changes are good, or bad, but whether companies should be allowed to force those changes on us viewers. If the new sport is better, it WILL get viewers, and more of them as time to come, since it is just better. You are arguing that GSL should be shown in the prime time slot since you are an SC2 fan, but you can always watch it im the Prime slot anyway, nobody stops you, and if there are many like you SC2 can grow. But forcing everyone else to follow suit even if they dont like it? I would like to recycle my analogy in another post of mine: If Blizz now make World of Starcraft and saying " We need all the current WoW servers for our new WoS, so WoW is no more.. So basically fk you and ur lvl 80 characters, and your hard-earned gears (accumulated after many months, even years), and honors, and achievements, and everything".. Will people still be saying these things like "the old must make space for the new", "its Blizzard's intellectual property, so they have rights"? I wonder.. I don't know how to respond to this. Basically, you start off responding to me saying "there are people who claim BW is better, and there are people who don't" by saying "many people who play SC2 feel BW is better". I was momentarily startled as though by an echo.
Then you continue by framing me as an SC2 fan boy even though I thoroughly enjoy watching both games and proceed to put words in my mouth that never fit to begin with. I didn't say Nada prefers SC2, I said he has played it and apparently enjoyed it by his words with TLO following their showmatch. JulyZerg is a very prominent convert that you just glossed over because I guess that's what you did with most of what I said.
I never "argued" that GSL should be in the prime time slot. I never wanted to force everyone else to follow suit.
I see that you then finished off with an analogy that is completely out of place. Where exactly did you want to converse here? I'm really at a loss.
To clarify: While it's very possible that players are blocked from playing SC2 now, I don't know where you got that they were blocked from playing previously. Seeing as how some of them already were playing SC2 in their spare time and Nada was requested to practice for the showmatch, not allowed.
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You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low?
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This is really sad for Sc2 actually. Not so much about BW. Sc2 failed launch in Korea is very bad too..
It could've been so huge. Blizzard shouldve given the game to OGN and MBC for free and within a matter of days, the whole country would've been sucked back in PC rooms playing the game with the same furious attitude they had when Starcraft was first released.
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On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low? These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways.
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On September 07 2010 17:31 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low? These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways. Blizzard decided it could take the rights to broadcast BW away from the people who broadcast BW, and give it to a company of noobs (Gretech) who don't want BW to be broadcast at all.
Yes, Blizzard fucked it up.
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On September 07 2010 17:38 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 17:31 urashimakt wrote:On September 07 2010 17:27 _awake_ wrote: You can think of it like Blizzard killing off BW (their child/parent) to claim their life insurance payout. Who would have thought they would have sunk so low? These threads seem to cause more misinformation than they clean up. Blizzard isn't even a part of this post. It's a clarification on what's going on between Gretech and KeSPA/the proteams. Saying that Blizzard is controlling Gretech's actions is pretty baseless, anyways. Blizzard decided it could take the rights to broadcast BW away from the people who broadcast BW, and give it to a company of noobs (Gretech) who don't want BW to be broadcast at all. Yes, Blizzard fucked it up. The post I replied to was insinuating Blizzard was intentionally trying to kill BW, but your view on this parallel subject is appreciated.
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