The Roach Regen could be nerfed slightly but there are other problems with T1 Burrow as well. Maybe it's best left be.
Opening up Zergs Early Game - Page 2
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nodestar
36 Posts
The Roach Regen could be nerfed slightly but there are other problems with T1 Burrow as well. Maybe it's best left be. | ||
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On September 11 2010 21:02 Meff wrote: Well, there is one difference. Burrowed banelings in a mineral line mean that you're effectively shutting down all mining until the victim has detection. Spider mines, on the other hand, couldn't be set off by workers (since they hovered). For that to work, you need to get Banelings in the mineral line, which should be pretty much game ending in most circumstances. If you manage to Baneling bust and leave some burrowed in the line, then your opponent deserves to lose (breaking to a bust that sank 6 banes of gas into Burrow). Maybe some weird as hell Overlord drop into the mineral line would work, but that's only gonna happen at T2 in any case. | ||
Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Think of a baneling bust, I knock down a pylon/depot with 5 banelings and have 3 sitting behind them with 20 zerglings. While I sac my zerglings to your fighter units, I work my banelings towards your minerals, I don't care if you run your workers away, I am just going to burrow right there and it's gg. This is a HUGE issue, especially in ZvZ, where ling/bling is already the standard and moving your drones off the line away from banelings typically happens in every game. My problem with burrow is, it just doesn't work as is right now. I am not going to spend 100/100 on burrow at lair tech, I have other more important things to get. But burrow is SUPPOSED to be a staple ability of Zerg. I think it is a little too powerful for roaches and blings at T1, but doesn't fit at all in T2. This seems to be the theme of Zerg though, having abilities and units that just don't fit anywhere. | ||
mutantmagnet
United States3783 Posts
Glial constitution constitution being available at the Hatch level wouldn't be an issue. Overlords shouldn't have Pneumatized Carapace that early. Using a drone to scout is viable enough. | ||
MoNoNauT
United States74 Posts
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wail
United States26 Posts
Maybe for Burrow - The research at tier 1 ought to require an evolution chamber? | ||
nodestar
36 Posts
On September 12 2010 08:50 mutantmagnet wrote: Overlords shouldn't have Pneumatized Carapace that early. Using a drone to scout is viable enough. The Overlord Speed would address a period of time where Zerg have complained about having limited ability to scout their opponents. The only option being an Over Lord sac that may or may not work. Drone scouting or ground scouting in general isn't possible once the wallin goes up. The best you could do is run lings up the ramp to gain limited vision is certain scenarios. All of these scouting tactics are well known but Zerg still has problems scouting during this time window. The Overlord Speed at Hatchery Tech may be a way of addressing that. | ||
XxEschatonxX
3 Posts
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Tommie
China658 Posts
First of all: you have to be VERY VERY careful with nerfs. They ahve the possibility of completely screwing up the balance. Each race has 3 matchups, 2 of which balance can be messed up, 1 of which variety can be messed up. There are 3 ways of changing balance: nerfing existing stuff, buffing existing stuff or chaging/adding stuff. I dont like the first two since they dont add variety and complexity to a game. This is how I feel about 1.1. By the way, I think people have to give the game more time, in order to let strategies evolve. Dont change too much at the same time. The problem with Zerg atm is that there is no need to be afraid of them in early/early mid. They have no initiative. Terran only needs to be afraid of 6pool ( lol ) and baneling bust. Same with Protoss. Zerg has to worry about proxy, rine/rauder timing attack, raper, LIFFURAUCDS ( lol i force field your ramp and you cant do sh*t ). Just a lot of things. Zerg needs to get some initiative and the early game needs to be opened up. Good point OP. I suggest splitting up Burrow. One hatchery research to burrow roaches, lings ( maybe not banelings i dont know the timing ). Another lair research to boost regen and burrow Infestor/Elefants. I dont know what they should cost but you can figure it out. This would make Terran more weary of attacking since they can walk right into a trap/need to use a scan instead of Mules. Protoss can be contained. It opens up the Zerg instead of nerfing P and T. | ||
ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
On September 11 2010 21:17 Antares777 wrote: Blizzard should at least move roach speed to tier 1. I'm not so sure about burrow, because then zerg can actually put a contain on other races at tier 1 with burrowed banelings. That might be a little OP. Oh no!!! Not a contain at Tier 1. /s I think a contain in early game is exactly what Zerg could use, because clearly, our early game sucks (and against Terran, even mid to late game sucks). If we could deny our opponent from leaving their base, that would allow us to get a fast third if we wanted it, and that would significantly open up our options, and actually put us on an even footing against T. | ||
atenthirtyone
United States88 Posts
With burrow as an option at hatchery tech, counterattacking with burrow zerglings and roaches in hatchery tech enough of a threat to Terran and Protoss where they either take a risk while moving out early, or commit more resources to defenses/detection which gives Zerg a little more breathing room in the early game. | ||
deadbutmoving
United States66 Posts
The only other change I would make is: Hatcheries that are morphing to lairs or upgrading should be able to train Queens at the same time. Because Queens are for defense only I don't see how this can hurt other races. And This would make ZvZ a much better match-up instead of constant all in banelings. | ||
kef
283 Posts
Slowing down 4gate and easing up reaper play will make it a little easier on Zerg. But it's up to the players to figure out strategies with what they have, not just say "If only this, then I could do this." The game is the way it will be for the most part until Heart of the Swarm. | ||
Drfluffy
United States96 Posts
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2v2AiSieesch
Germany98 Posts
On September 12 2010 03:39 TechDeft wrote: Burrow as T1 wouldn't be OP if burrow-move-heal was still a lair tech. 100% agree and burrow would be useful on t1 for banelings and counterattacks | ||
nodestar
36 Posts
On September 13 2010 07:57 kef wrote: The only changes i think should be to make it a little quicker or safer to get to tier 2, because as it is right now going to tier 2 is your only option besides going all in. Most (non-all in) tier 1 play against a walloff is a choice between getting to tier 2 faster or safer. In my opinion this is a problem. And the changes outlined in the OP attempt to address that problem. You can't do anything with T1. The only reason you build any T1 is to get to T2 alive. I don't think thats very good design. | ||
Gimpb
293 Posts
To some extent, I kinda wish banelings were a little more well-rounded in their damage output, even if that meant they didn't smash light units so hard. | ||
Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 12 2010 08:59 wail wrote: I like all of these ideas. Maybe for Burrow - The research at tier 1 ought to require an evolution chamber? I was busy thinking something slightly different ... Would it break the game if Zerg got burrow automatically with a lair (like the overlord creep spewing). This would make it much more used ... | ||
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