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I have been considering trying to create a timeline that shows the various timing attacks on it for each race.
In doing research for that, I came across sc2gears and sc2builds.com. sc2gears is a replay analyzer, and it seems to be the most useful tool I've seen yet for presenting this information. In particular, I really think this picture is helpfulhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/61/Timing_window.png for visualizing how the timing attacks compare to one another.
Another resource that looks useful for compiling this data is sc2builds.com, which lists a lot of stock build orders.
Ultimately, I really think this project coudl be incredibly useful if someone can figure out a way to present the data in a meaningful way.
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Jimb0v let me know if you can think of a better way of presenting all this data.
Thanks!
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Can you make the timings for a regular B.Bust?
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On November 17 2010 22:19 Incarnite wrote:
As I'm in Medical School right now, I'll be primarily updating this thread with builds during weekday mornings, as I get extremely bored during lectures
What's this? Who cares about this other than your growing epeen right now? lol
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timing pushs arent a matter of a number of time. just a good time to push, like after +1 weps or something...
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I like this thread alot, even though there has been some like this in the past i hope we can keep this going and done well to include all the timing pushes, ill look up my replays and post about protoss ones i have.
Well done.
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So for the terran pushes do you think they would all work well against every race or not? I know I should probably know which pushes to use against which race but sadly I don't. If someone could fill me in on that it'd be appreciated.
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I was actually hoping someone would put this stuff up. I struggle with learning my opponents timings all the time, so this is extremely helpful! Thank you!!!
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I feel like this is done by someone who follows a build order out to 200/200 food and thinks this is a predictable game. Please go play the game and test what your saying before making a post like this, Ill play protoss so Ill make a constructive comment about the timings posted under the protoss tab, reguardless of how illogical I feel this thread already is.
A) who says that they push with the number of units you say would be there, taking into no account cronoboost. A push with 8 stalkers 6 zealots and 2 sentries implies that they got their gas at a standard time, with no variation on when they got their warp gates or if an attack happened before this that killed some units. B) Against terran I hear that a lot of protoss players are sitting in their base waiting for the terran timing attack to occur, feeling that they will have a greater chance of holding it off if they are able to warp directly into their base and effectively use forcefeilds.
Overall I honestly dont see why this thread is still up, the fact is SC2 is a game of variables, not of an attack of x units will come at x time so I should have x counter. If you think this way Im not sure how to tell you how incorrect it is while still maintaining my sanity.
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@ OriginalBeast:
I think it's pretty deconstructive for you to assume that I just follow build orders blindly not knowing various intricacies of different variables such as gas timings, harass, scouting, map factors etc... I am far from a professional player but I do play this game at a pretty reasonable level (I take place in show matches, place well in tournaments, and consistently practice against players who are on professional teams). Im not looking to teach you how to play the game. That's not the scope of this thread, however, I feel certain pushes are more commonplace than others and they deserve to be recognized and understood so people know how to deal with 80% of what they're going to see on ladder, because lets be honest, many people just copy builds that they see "pros" doing. Remember when Trump got every Terran to 3 Rax Stim Push all the way to the top of diamond league? This post is meant for people who are having trouble against cookie cutter builds that most people utilize.
As far as predictability goes, this game is pretty predictable, thats why there are builds that are considered "standard" because that's what generally works best and generally what people do most.
This thread isn't meant for you to memorize and then go win GSL, it's for some lower level players to get a better understanding of timings and scouting, so when they see a certain set of buildings, or scout some tech they can be like "oh! i can expect so and so many units and scale accordingly to how early or late the push is going to be, based on what I know about the timing".
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I'm going to say that I still disagree, obviously you want people to memorize buildings then when to expect the push; what are you going to do if someone comes back and says, hey I saw this stuff and the push came later, or even worse earlier. However the weight of responsibility is not what is in question. Its the fact that telling someone that generally this will happen will influence a person to beleive it will happen, to a zerg player espicially I can see how they would say, "oh shit x amount of minutes I better get some zerglings so that I can defend that attack that will be comming in 30 seconds" then some kind if hidden dark shrine happens and they end up w/o a lair and DTs kill all their workers. I find there to be a HUGE gap in logic on this thread by telling someone that these are strategies to expect espically this early in the game. There is no way that the really juicy great strategies can even be conceived after a couple months of the game being out. A second place that I find a gap in logic is influencing people to make counter builds, as opposed to responsive or adaptable builds. I mean think about early game scouting, what do you end up usually seeing that tells you about tech, gas definately, what kind of add ons are being used, cronoboost timing, ect. The things you find, may be put into a correlation to something someone sees on this thread and steer them wrong. Plus what about drops, telling someone that harass will happen at a certain time isnt right either, there is no 9:26 a warp prism will be in your base. Drops can also carry units throwing off the times. THINGS IN THE GAME CANT BE TIMED! That is so critically important to understand for everyone regardless of skill, or in game race, you say that the game can be predictiable and I say you may be able to predict what someone has, however thats not what your doing; and when I said the game isnt predictable thats what you understood it as. Yes, If you see something like a dark shrine, you as safe to bet that you need detection, but what your doing is saying, if you see a dark shrine DTs will be in your base at whatever time. There is nothing that you can calculate that can say when a person decides to send their dark templar to someones base.
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Plus your putting the impression in newer players head that a timing push is a number, and Im sure as you know with your experience that a timing push is something that you do after something is finnished. In my experience the 4 warpgate timing push is a comfort level thing not based off of anything nessecarily, so calculating a timing is impossible
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On November 18 2010 16:02 OriginalBeast wrote: I'm going to say that I still disagree, obviously you want people to memorize buildings then when to expect the push; what are you going to do if someone comes back and says, hey I saw this stuff and the push came later, or even worse earlier.
You are totally missing the point of this thread. This is not a roadmap of how to play or how to "counter" a build. It is true that if people are just playing and pushing out willy nilly, then you will never predict their times because they are not doing timing attacks.
Timing attacks are defined by the times at which they are achievable. Of course every timing attack has a range depending on how much economy a player wants to give up.
A perfect example is the 5 Stalker build that has been going around. One version has 12 probes and 5 stalkers at the oppents base at 5 minutes. Another version has 17 probes and 5 stalkers at the opponents base at 5:20. Being able to identify, or at least know what to look for is a useful tool.
On November 18 2010 16:02 OriginalBeast wrote: However the weight of responsibility is not what is in question. Its the fact that telling someone that generally this will happen will influence a person to beleive it will happen, to a zerg player espicially I can see how they would say, "oh shit x amount of minutes I better get some zerglings so that I can defend that attack that will be comming in 30 seconds" then some kind if hidden dark shrine happens and they end up w/o a lair and DTs kill all their workers.
Here's the thing. Timing pushes are about min/maxing. If I poke the front of a protoss base and see a particular sized army, I KNOW something about his ability to get DTs. If I poke up and see a particular set of things, being able to categorize the possiblities, is an incredibly useful tool.
On November 18 2010 16:02 OriginalBeast wrote: I find there to be a HUGE gap in logic on this thread by telling someone that these are strategies to expect espically this early in the game. There is no way that the really juicy great strategies can even be conceived after a couple months of the game being out. A second place that I find a gap in logic is influencing people to make counter builds, as opposed to responsive or adaptable builds. I mean think about early game scouting, what do you end up usually seeing that tells you about t1ech, gas definately, what kind of add ons are being used, cronoboost timing, ect. The things you find, may be put into a correlation to something someone sees on this thread and steer them wrong.
This thread really hasn't even gone into making those correlations yet. I actually believe that might be useful some day, but right now the information here is nto nearly that useful. The initial scout is pretty simple to utilize and make some really broad generalizations about what your opponnent is doing. 2 gates, 1 gate core, 0, 1, 2 gas these all let us make broad categorizations about what the protoss intentions are. The tougher scouting is actually that second scout, sometimes it can be difficult to discern what your scouting information tells you. A repository such as the one started here, could some day be helpful in figuring that out.
On November 18 2010 16:02 OriginalBeast wrote: Plus what about drops, telling someone that harass will happen at a certain time isnt right either, there is no 9:26 a warp prism will be in your base. Drops can also carry units throwing off the times. THINGS IN THE GAME CANT BE TIMED!
This is very wrong imo. Defending drops right now is done mostly by intuition. And really all this database of builds ultimately can do is to help you reinforce that intuitiion. The timings about when drops could come, not about when they will come for sure. Even if a drop never comes, it may be correct to leave a stalker or 2 back at your base starting after time X. A lot of these types of actions are done by intuition by high level players, a lot of it is done by high level players because they have experienced it so much. To say drops can't be timed is just silly. There is a time in the game where you need to start thinking about it and actively doing something about it. Whether that means getting an obs out to spot for you, or leaving a few units back, or just makinkg sure to focus some extra attention on the minimap.
On November 18 2010 16:02 OriginalBeast wrote: That is so critically important to understand for everyone regardless of skill, or in game race, you say that the game can be predictiable and I say you may be able to predict what someone has, however thats not what your doing; and when I said the game isnt predictable thats what you understood it as. Yes, If you see something like a dark shrine, you as safe to bet that you need detection, but what your doing is saying, if you see a dark shrine DTs will be in your base at whatever time. There is nothing that you can calculate that can say when a person decides to send their dark templar to someones base. You are almost never going to actually see the dark shrine. If you do see the dark shrine going up, the smart thing for that player to do is to cancel it after destroying your scout, because it will never be effective when they see it coming. The key is being able to proactively get yourself in a position to defend that DT rush if the actionso f the player this far make that possiblity. For example, if your opponent made 7 sentries. He just does not have the ability to go DTs in any reasonable time frame. If you see him just building zealots and a few stalker. Well then you need to be ready for that tech switch.
This database, could be the beginning of how to present the data in a meaningful way for a myriad of different purposes.
Seeing timing pushes and their window of opportunity is just one example. For example, the blink stalker builds vs. 3 gate robo. What tweaks and adjustments can be done with each build to make it more effective or robust vs the other? Who has the advantage and when?
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can we get something like this up on liquipedia? more organized and easier to find/edit stuff would be nice. been working on a dt build since before that became semi popular and really need to see how it times up against other pushes without being scouted.
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On November 17 2010 22:19 Incarnite wrote: Updating As I'm in Medical School right now, I'll be primarily updating this thread with builds during weekday mornings, as I get extremely bored during lectures =]
Wouldn't it be to your future patients' sake if you'd update this thread in the afternoon and pay more attention in lectures?
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On November 19 2010 03:26 BoondockVeritas wrote: can we get something like this up on liquipedia? more organized and easier to find/edit stuff would be nice. been working on a dt build since before that became semi popular and really need to see how it times up against other pushes without being scouted.
I second that
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I love the idea behind this thread and I hope to see it grow. I look forward to a sort of database with the various timing attacks (which i hope will be added to liquipedia ^_^) which will hopefully let people use the amazingly useful build order optimizers to come up with some new and exciting builds.
Rest put in spoiler because it's pretty long and i'm gonna ramble uncontrollably about stuff : + Show Spoiler +This thread came out right when i was looking into roughly the same thing. I have been working with the protoss build optimizer to look into different responses/openings to some of the timing attacks. I was interested in heavy immortal + sentry play seeing how builds like blink stalkers, roach pushes, and marauder FE's / mech play are becoming more common. I was having a decent amount of trouble with the optimizer because the game clock is so new and I'm not used to specifying what i want to have or prepare for at a specific time. It is weird doing it in seconds and not by my own in-game perspective. However, I was able to sit in and obs some high level games (thanks to minigun, looky, and masq of Inflow) and set some better benchmarks in terms of timing ( timing attack windows, vulnerability windows, + what is "normal" for the amount of probes, supply, tech at X time). I'm really hoping this thread continues to expand and we get a lot more specific data about various timing attacks/ openings and information extensive enough so that everyone can start to look at their own timing attacks that can hold of certain builds and punish weaknesses. Liquipedia does a great job of explaining builds but still has lot that needs to be added. It also doesn't have a lot of specific timings available. The timing attacks posted are great in that they have a good estimate for when certain timing attacks hit but that is mostly useful for holding off that specific attack instead of punishing it. For example, a marine tank push can hit around 9 or 13 minutes depending on variations but knowing that doesn't give you the info to construct a proper build to counter it early. Punishing that opening before the expansion comes into full force and allows the terran to really macro out an army would be more efficient that looking to counter the specifically timed push.
For example, I was obsing inflowmini vs inflowmasq (TvP) where masq was doing a marauder based fast expand into mech play and expanding with bunkers. They played 2 games on LT where minigun lost both after not being able to stop masq when he bunker expanded to the gold base as his 3rd and pushed in with heavy marine tank + vikings. Both players expanded around 6 minutes (relatively early like 35-40 supply expand) did some minor pokes with early units and teched up. Masq's bunker push to the gold base on LT (which in 1 game was also a contain) was around 13 minutes and his subsequent push was just too much for mini's 2 base colossi play (even though on the game where the push wasn't a contain he go this own gold after scouting the masq's go up) . As I rewatched the replay to evaluate one of the builds i had been messing with on the optimizer I saw that the unrefined build was a great response to masq's type of opening. I tweaked it a bit with the data and got a build that looked like a standard opening (9 pylon, 13 gate, 14 gas) and gave the player time to scout and continue with the build and got an excellent one. At 8 minutes it gave me 5 immortals, 5 sentries, and 3 zealots, with 27 probes and minerals for an expansion. At this point in the replay masq had 5 marauders in 2 bunkers after just getting his expansion up. The force we would get using the optimized build would destroy that force and only left us with 1 less probe than masq had at that moment.
Using that data gave me a much better option than trying to construct a build to hold off the terran timing attack. Now I am well aware that subsequent scouting (especially with scan) allows the terran to react and prepare but having options and being able to force them out of their desired opening and dictate the progression of the game is huge. Optimizing builds like this could act like the reaper rushes pre patch did and make certain economic builds too dangerous, thus giving the player an advantage even if they don't try to end the game with the push they were building towards.
Frankly this build that I am going to continue to try to tweak and refine when I get time to analyze some more replays and test things out looks more like a legitimate PvP build. If scouted it looks like a colossi rush (which will probably be countered with blink stalkers) and completely destroys stalker openings and relatively quick expansions. It is probably also decent vs zerg roach openings although possibly from a more defensive standpoint. Tweaked for PvZ it should allow for a relatively fast expansion that is 100% safe vs a roach response and gives a timing attack with +1 zealots and immortals to take down a double expand response.
I look forward to seeing how the builds people develop with this compilation of data changes 'standard' builds and the way matchups are played.
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