********Can a Mod Put [D/G] and TvP in the Title. My Mistake***********
NOTE: PLEASE watch my 2 Factory style replays(3 fact styles are optional-was my old style-2 Fact is better) and Jinro's vods before throwing random comments that have nothing to do with the Thread. Were not here to discuss marauders or how collosi kill marines. If you want to talk about that crap go to the B.net Forums.
THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE VIABILITY OF THIS UNIT COMP. NOT BUILD ORDER/ OPENER/ STYLE
Me like many other Terrans are sick of going mass bio. So i've set on a quest to find a solution. Although i have concluded that pure Mech it self does not work i did discover something.Marine Tank Viking.The weakness of mech is the fact that you need EMP for immortals, Anti air, and a way to kill zealots. Well Marines do all three. I've talked with some higher level players who simply rejected me and my replays of me dominating my opponents stating that it was only viable because im High plat low diamond.Until today i saw Jinro VODs of him doing the same unit composition in the LiquidWeekly. Though the play style and opener are different the composition is more or less the same. __________________________________ My Replays- I prefer a 1 rax FE throwing down 2 more raxes and then 2 Factories(used to get 3 but cut it out for faster upgrades) and getting fast upgrades. Then adding a 4th rax and Reactors. Later adding Vikings
Currently I'm working on adding Harass and looking for timing windows. Hope these inspire someone. __________________________________
Jinro Vods-
http://sc2rep.com/replays/show?id=4470 http://sc2rep.com/replays/GSL2011JanCodeSRo16GroupD/4472 ___________________________________ Though his play is on Lost Temple i find this style to be viable with long rush distances. My best success surprisingly is on Xelnaga despite the open natural.Bad maps include Steppes of War and Blistering Sands. Haven't Tried JB but im pretty sure thats bad because of the Backdoor.And with the new GSL maps(Hopefully they will be added to ladder soon) i think this composition will be more viable http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182734 __________________________________
I will be adding more replays every once in a while if people want. And might add a guide to my playstyle and build. And a break down of how to use the build. Strengths and weaknesses. If people are interested.
Note: This Thread is to discuss the viability of the composition versus Protoss. Not PlayStyle and openers as play styles can vary, but composition may not.
Personally my opener works great, but some may want to go 1/1/1 like Jinro did.
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TLDR-Marines Tanks Vikings with Hellion Harass. If you have any doubts watch Replays and Jinro VODs. This is about the viability of the composition not a build order discussion.
This seems to be standard in TVT while in TVP marauders work so well that people tend to prefer them over marines and have more emphasis on vikings to take on air.
On January 15 2011 06:28 SCdinner wrote: This seems to be standard in TVT while in TVP marauders work so well that people tend to prefer them over marines and have more emphasis on vikings to take on air.
The only issue with Marauders is The Collosi late game and the Storm. With Marine Tank Viking Storms and Collosi aren't that Scary.
To respond Protoss needs to go air. Carriers with some Gateway back up or Templar Archons for Tanking damage.
Im not saying this is going to do away with Bio as both compositions have their up and downs. And this can be a style variation of the Matchup.
In TvP and TvT i go marauder/tank/viking. Colossus rape marines sadly. In TvZ i go marine/tank/viking. Banelings still cause me problems but with vikings i can save my tanks from mutas if i lose a battle so my losses are more forgiving than if my whole push got destroyed because i siege late.
On January 15 2011 06:52 heyyouyesyou wrote: In TvP and TvT i go marauder/tank/viking. Colossus rape marines sadly. In TvZ i go marine/tank/viking. Banelings still cause me problems but with vikings i can save my tanks from mutas if i lose a battle so my losses are more forgiving than if my whole push got destroyed because i siege late.
Marines are needed for killing immortals and Zealots. In most of my Replays Protoss go Collosi since thats all they know how to do . And i pretty much own them. Vikings kill Collosi and tanks kill collosi.
Hey, thanks for bringing this up. I used to hate MMM until I started using it out of perceived necessity and it suddenly became viable and responsive to commands. Until I started losing. I had an epic loss streak last night, much of it in Terran mirrors vs tanks. Myself, I don't like the stable feature of Terran mirrors, which is the positional warfare. Move an inch, lay down the bunkers, siege the tanks. Unsiege half, move, siege, unsiege the previous half, move, siege, salvage and lay again the bunkers... Eeek! But MTV feels somewhat better than MMM, MMT, MMMT etc. Incidentally, from what I've heard, there was a lot of tanks and vikings in beta days, though I certainly wasn't there. I only got my SC2 in November or something and started playing league just before Christmas. By the way, it would be nice if you could write out a working build that lets you have a nice cluster of tanks without dying to cheese or fourgate or mass bio in the process.
Speaking of which, how does your strat feel vs DT?
On January 15 2011 07:19 NewbieOne wrote: Hey, thanks for bringing this up. I used to hate MMM until I started using it out of perceived necessity and it suddenly became viable and responsive to commands. Until I started losing. I had an epic loss streak last night, much of it in Terran mirrors vs tanks. Myself, I don't like the stable feature of Terran mirrors, which is the positional warfare. Move an inch, lay down the bunkers, siege the tanks. Unsiege half, move, siege, unsiege the previous half, move, siege, salvage and lay again the bunkers... Eeek! But MTV feels somewhat better than MMM, MMT, MMMT etc. Incidentally, from what I've heard, there was a lot of tanks and vikings in beta days, though I certainly wasn't there. I only got my SC2 in November or something and started playing league just before Christmas. By the way, it would be nice if you could write out a working build that lets you have a nice cluster of tanks without dying to cheese or fourgate or mass bio in the process.
Speaking of which, how does your strat feel vs DT?
Watch my replays-
The old style was FE 3 fact The New style are Labled FE 2 Fact.
2 Fact is better imo because they allow for double Atk ups. The Third Factory can be added later in game.
As for 1 base attacks their easy to stop. Scout it. Build some Bunkers, you should have a nice clump of marines and siege mode with 2 tanks usually. The turtle powers of terran makes 1 base attacks easy to defend. The trick is Bunkers, Repair, and Tanks. That pretty much will hold everything they can toss at you. As for DTs notice how early i get the ebay, not to mention you can pretty much scout the DT or fast tech, by scanning and seeing how many gates they have. I have a game or 2 with DTs.
Rough Build
Open 1 Rax FE- Orbital before CC -Follow CC with 2 more Raxes -Drop 2 Refineries-Fill -Never stop Making Marines ever!!!-People who don't make marines die to 1 base crap. -Build 2 Facts ASAP-If you sence Void Crap or DT Crap get Starport rather then second Fact-I have a replay of me doing this-" Starport Safety" -Siege Tanks + Siegemode -2 More Gases -Engineer+Armory ASAP-Double atk ups
The Starport timings/Reactors/ Third base-These are thing your gonna have to figure out yourself. Basically when you can or need. Watch replays for help.
As for Starports i like to build 2 just in case even though im not using them at the moment. 1 Reactor 1 Tech.
-Note don't be scared to stop Tank production for vikings if you need them.
-I also have 1 game where im experimented with a mid/l8 game Hellion Marauder transition t catch to opponent off guard. Though it failed, i killed all his workers, because he wasn't expecting Hellions. This is done by switching you Tech facts and Reactor raxes. This transition still needs work.
On January 15 2011 06:52 heyyouyesyou wrote: In TvP and TvT i go marauder/tank/viking. Colossus rape marines sadly. In TvZ i go marine/tank/viking. Banelings still cause me problems but with vikings i can save my tanks from mutas if i lose a battle so my losses are more forgiving than if my whole push got destroyed because i siege late.
Marines are needed for killing immortals and Zealots. In most of my Replays Protoss go Collosi since thats all they know how to do . And i pretty much own them. Vikings kill Collosi and tanks kill collosi.
Watch my replays.
What if the Protoss just gets Zealot sentry with fast +1 and then templar tech? Marines are helpless against a protoss with good sentry micro, not to mention doing the build you showed requires serious damage to be dealt... how does it deal with a 1gate expand protoss?
On January 15 2011 06:52 heyyouyesyou wrote: In TvP and TvT i go marauder/tank/viking. Colossus rape marines sadly. In TvZ i go marine/tank/viking. Banelings still cause me problems but with vikings i can save my tanks from mutas if i lose a battle so my losses are more forgiving than if my whole push got destroyed because i siege late.
Marines are needed for killing immortals and Zealots. In most of my Replays Protoss go Collosi since thats all they know how to do . And i pretty much own them. Vikings kill Collosi and tanks kill collosi.
Watch my replays.
What if the Protoss just gets Zealot sentry with fast +1 and then templar tech? Marines are helpless against a protoss with good sentry micro, not to mention doing the build you showed requires serious damage to be dealt... how does it deal with a 1gate expand protoss?
On January 15 2011 06:28 SCdinner wrote: This seems to be standard in TVT while in TVP marauders work so well that people tend to prefer them over marines and have more emphasis on vikings to take on air.
The only issue with Marauders is The Collosi late game and the Storm. With Marine Tank Viking Storms and Collosi aren't that Scary.
To respond Protoss needs to go air. Carriers with some Gateway back up or Templar Archons for Tanking damage.
Im not saying this is going to do away with Bio as both compositions have their up and downs. And this can be a style variation of the Matchup.
But marines fall even faster to storm and collusi than maurders. You can argue that they're more expendable because they do not require gas but they're SO frail.
On January 15 2011 06:28 SCdinner wrote: This seems to be standard in TVT while in TVP marauders work so well that people tend to prefer them over marines and have more emphasis on vikings to take on air.
The only issue with Marauders is The Collosi late game and the Storm. With Marine Tank Viking Storms and Collosi aren't that Scary.
To respond Protoss needs to go air. Carriers with some Gateway back up or Templar Archons for Tanking damage.
Im not saying this is going to do away with Bio as both compositions have their up and downs. And this can be a style variation of the Matchup.
But marines fall even faster to storm and collusi than maurders. You can argue that they're more expendable because they do not require gas but they're SO frail.
Watch my replays and watch how i deal with storm.
Also watch the vods. . You don;t ealize all the answers are in the OP. Just have to stop being Lazy
The main problem with this style of play is that it gets much weaker the larger the map is. Tanks just take too much supply :-\
However, it is really nice to see expand behind harass play. Jinro's great at that. Also great demonstration of a real slow push. Still mass tank off 1/1/1 is really map dependent.
The old style was FE 3 fact The New style are Labled FE 2 Fact.
2 Fact is better imo because they allow for double Atk ups. The Third Factory can be added later in game.
As for 1 base attacks their easy to stop. Scout it. Build some Bunkers, you should have a nice clump of marines and siege mode with 2 tanks usually. The turtle powers of terran makes 1 base attacks easy to defend. The trick is Bunkers, Repair, and Tanks. That pretty much will hold everything they can toss at you. As for DTs notice how early i get the ebay, not to mention you can pretty much scout the DT or fast tech, by scanning and seeing how many gates they have. I have a game or 2 with DTs.
Rough Build
Open 1 Rax FE- Orbital before CC -Follow CC with 2 more Raxes -Drop 2 Refineries-Fill -Never stop Making Marines ever!!!-People who don't make marines die to 1 base crap. -Build 2 Facts ASAP-If you sence Void Crap or DT Crap get Starport rather then second Fact-I have a replay of me doing this-" Starport Safety" -Siege Tanks + Siegemode -2 More Gases -Engineer+Armory ASAP-Double atk ups
The Starport timings/Reactors/ Third base-These are thing your gonna have to figure out yourself. Basically when you can or need. Watch replays for help.
As for Starports i like to build 2 just in case even though im not using them at the moment. 1 Reactor 1 Tech.
-Note don't be scared to stop Tank production for vikings if you need them.
-I also have 1 game where im experimented with a mid/l8 game Hellion Marauder transition t catch to opponent off guard. Though it failed, i killed all his workers, because he wasn't expecting Hellions. This is done by switching you Tech facts and Reactor raxes. This transition still needs work.
Thanks, GinDo, I really appreciate your taking time to write up all that. I have your replays downloaded and I'm gonna watch them the first thing in the morning.
On January 15 2011 09:18 Mataza wrote: I think what he tries to get at is that he uses marines Only as backup and to guard his tanks.
Viking vs. Air and Colossi and Tanks outrange(esp. w/ Viking sight) everything and Kill pretty much anything thats not an immortal or zealot.
That´s what I read out of it at least.
Thank you. Thats exactly what I was aiming for. . Hopefully people will appreciate. My build or playstyle may not agree with some people. But the Strength of the Composition is undeniable. Add in some Hellions for Harass and you got your self a pretty sick army.
The key are the fast upgrades. I've noticed the difference from 2 fact with fast upgrades and straight up 3 fact l8 upgrades and believe me 2 attack bio+Mech feels so good, and +3 is ridiculous.
match 1 & 2 are such bad examples for promoting marine siege viking vs protoss: you dont go colossus stalkers vs vikings sieges, thats the most absurd thing ever. Like a zerg going zerling baneling vs zealot sentry colossus.
any good protoss would just research charge, sprinkle some more immortals and roll you so bad it wont even be funny.
you need a solid contain and even so youre vulnerable to some warp prism play into a flanked attack.
i like going bunker contain marine siege hellions, its a hard one to pull of but every victory is rewarding.
Marines don't fare too well against Zealots supported by Guardian Shield with fast armor ups. If Protoss is at +1 armor over your attack (which is possible for some builds), then marines only do 2 damage per shot to Zealot health with GS active.
If you'll look at Jinro's games, he seemed to be going for a lot of banshee harass and hellion drops. Those attacks A) steer the protoss towards stalkers since those can deal with hellions and banshees, and B) tend to pin the protoss army back when they aren't making a major offensive so your tanks can advance a lot farther before needing to siege.
Without these forcing elements, protoss can really slow you down since you'll have to fight to break out of your natural instead of starting the slow push near theirs, and protoss is more free to just build stuff that counters you - like mass upgraded chargelots, which can deal pretty well with marines and tanks (and Vikings on the ground, since basically everything is cost effective against Vikings in walker mode).
On January 15 2011 14:45 danielsan wrote: match 1 & 2 are such bad examples for promoting marine siege viking vs protoss: you dont go colossus stalkers vs vikings sieges, thats the most absurd thing ever. Like a zerg going zerling baneling vs zealot sentry colossus.
any good protoss would just research charge, sprinkle some more immortals and roll you so bad it wont even be funny.
you need a solid contain and even so youre vulnerable to some warp prism play into a flanked attack.
i like going bunker contain marine siege hellions, its a hard one to pull of but every victory is rewarding.
Watch the GSL vods as They are against Starport Tech. Also i have replays against Immortal Chargelot with me wiping the floor.