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On June 13 2011 13:09 bovineblitz wrote:I'm not trying to argue what micro is, that's derailing my point. I was saying that his answer to the question is disconcerting, his examples of micro are very poor choices. Show nested quote +Apart from balance, the situation where one unit counters another unit is quite serious. This makes it very hard to stage a comeback in games. In Starcraft 1, players could make comebacks through the use of various strategies or through some other means. However, it is very difficult to do make combacks in Starcraft 2. What do you think about this issue?
Dustin : That is actually not the case. This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.
I've watched quite a number of tournaments. We have lots of situations where player A wins the first game, and player B comes back to win the second game. Within the games themselves, we also see the advantage keep swinging from one player to another. This shows that the state of Starcraft 2 is not that one sided. Perhaps, the situation in these tournaments are not completely accurate, but from what I see now in the top tournaments, unit counters are actually quite relative. (T/N : I have a feeling this paragraph was translated pretty badly, but I translated it to the best of my abilities. If anyone can do a better job with this question, please don't be shy to contribute.)
For example, let's look at a situation where we have banelings fighting against marines. If they were to just clash against each other without any micro, the banelings will definitely kill off a lot of marines. However, if the marines have stim, I believe you can use micro to come out ahead in the engagement. Let's look at another situation, where we have banshees against marines. In a straight up fight, the marines will definitely win the fight. Yet, if the banshee has cloak, the situation would be different. Let's look at yet another situation, marauders against stalkers. If both sides a-move, clearly the marauder will win. However, if the stalker has blink, and uses blink well, the situation might turn out different as well. It makes you wonder if they even watched a replay or VOD and was high when he casted those Dayvie games before the game was released
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Cloak isn't micro, it's an ability.
Micro would be kiting marines.
Micro is unit control.
Using abilities is unit control.
But is it hard? No.
Anyways, you could further argue that the Terran will need to position (and therefore micro) his marines along with Scans to take out Cloak banshees or prevent harassment.
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On June 13 2011 13:09 bovineblitz wrote:I'm not trying to argue what micro is, that's derailing my point. I was saying that his answer to the question is disconcerting, his examples of micro are very poor choices. Show nested quote +Apart from balance, the situation where one unit counters another unit is quite serious. This makes it very hard to stage a comeback in games. In Starcraft 1, players could make comebacks through the use of various strategies or through some other means. However, it is very difficult to do make combacks in Starcraft 2. What do you think about this issue?
Dustin : That is actually not the case. This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.
I've watched quite a number of tournaments. We have lots of situations where player A wins the first game, and player B comes back to win the second game. Within the games themselves, we also see the advantage keep swinging from one player to another. This shows that the state of Starcraft 2 is not that one sided. Perhaps, the situation in these tournaments are not completely accurate, but from what I see now in the top tournaments, unit counters are actually quite relative. (T/N : I have a feeling this paragraph was translated pretty badly, but I translated it to the best of my abilities. If anyone can do a better job with this question, please don't be shy to contribute.)
For example, let's look at a situation where we have banelings fighting against marines. If they were to just clash against each other without any micro, the banelings will definitely kill off a lot of marines. However, if the marines have stim, I believe you can use micro to come out ahead in the engagement. Let's look at another situation, where we have banshees against marines. In a straight up fight, the marines will definitely win the fight. Yet, if the banshee has cloak, the situation would be different. Let's look at yet another situation, marauders against stalkers. If both sides a-move, clearly the marauder will win. However, if the stalker has blink, and uses blink well, the situation might turn out different as well. Sorry for the derailing. I agree with your outlines, those examples were poor.
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I was watching ProLeague last night and the game was Bisu vs. Action. Protoss felt more inspired to play than it is today. Bisu would make shuttle with speed, corsairs, reavers, dark templars. Protoss in SC2 feels stagnant and linear. I love White-ra trying to integrate Void Prisms, but overall I don't feel inspired when I see Protoss. Perhaps I am biased.
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Blizzard designers are too much in love with their rushes and the excuse of doing it for the Bronze leaguers so they learn to play witht that is just as fake as it gets, because Bronze league players will probably downvote these maps. Steppes of War was just such an example. The reason why rushes dont work well for SC2 is that the game is too volatile and the extremes between "macro build" and "rush build" are too great when it comes to the number of units. Thus rushes are too powerful on maps designed for them, but have an acceptable risk on maps which are large.
Lets just wait and see what is coming with the next change in maps for the ladder ... being a pessimist I dont think it will be free of close spawns.
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On June 13 2011 07:06 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 06:58 Ubes wrote: Too many people want SC1 part 2. This is SC2 a different game. If SC2 wants to ride on Starcraft's competitive success, it can't fling 'different game' at every critique. Most of the points brought up are not critiquing SC2, they're trying to make it like SC1.
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On June 13 2011 13:53 Ubes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:06 Severedevil wrote:On June 13 2011 06:58 Ubes wrote: Too many people want SC1 part 2. This is SC2 a different game. If SC2 wants to ride on Starcraft's competitive success, it can't fling 'different game' at every critique. Most of the points brought up are not critiquing SC2, they're trying to make it like SC1. And this is bad?
There are a very few "structural improvements" which kinda break SC2 compared to SC1: 1. The macro mechanics speed up the game by giving more resources faster. This makes rushes more (too?) powerful and the whole game more volatile. 2. The perfect movement AI (plus unlimited unit selection) of SC2 gives attacking armies a maximum density and thus a maximum dps per attacking square. This requires perfect balancing of units, while the imperfect movement AI of SC1 made this attacking dps density much less and thus it wasnt as important if a siege Tank or Psi Storm or Reaver shot was totally IMBA, because they didnt kill the whole enemy army in one shot.
Using the most convenient and best programming for the game doesnt actually help making it easier to balance / play. Thus the comparisons to SC1 - as being the great game it is - are totally valid. Sadly some people at Blizzard dont think that way and they are still in their "lets have more explosions and units and stuff, because that will make the game better"-mode of too many action movies. Well, more explosions and stuff dont automatically make the game better ...
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This thread has a lot of content, but not much substance.
Most of the OP's points are moot or, highly debatable or plain wrong.
Blizzard are not "out of touch". They aren't perfect, but they need to keep their interference in the game to a minimum far more critically than making changes based off community trends.
Stop asking Blizzard to fix the game and learn to play it as it is!
I'd be happy if they didn't patch anything until the expansion - the game hasn't been explored 10%. Every month the "OP" race changes without balance or maps changes; just metagame shifts.
Maps don't make a the determining difference till the race's strategies have been fully explored - this is what we learned from BW. So maps are fundamentally irrelevant until there have been no balance changes for at least 12 months.
As for the units - their suggested changes are excellent. The overseer and immortal are uninteresting units. They don't do anything dynamic to the game. The units people are choosing as 'uninteresting' are simply balance whining in a different form. Colossus UNINTERESTING?? BS. They are fascinating units. Aoe, massive, cliff-walking. ranged, vulnerable to air...so many mechanics in one unit. Amazing. Balanced? Who knows. They may make the GAME uninteresting because they're strong, but that's a different issue to being a boring UNIT.
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No, the colossus is boring. It has vulnerabilities no doubt, but the general way to use this unit is to a-move and then move it back when enemy units come forward to attack it. There is no point doing anything else with the colossus. Even if you tried to do it differently, nothing will come out of it.
Blizzard is out of touch with BW and how it became an e-sport. SC2 has the most of what I like to call "generic ranged units" that are just meant to be massed and attack.
Terran: Marines, marauders, thors Zerg: Roach, hydra Protoss: Stalker, immortal, colossus
These units dominate every matchup for the most part. It gives very little racial identity.
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On June 13 2011 14:28 shadymmj wrote: No, the colossus is boring. It has vulnerabilities no doubt, but the general way to use this unit is to a-move and then move it back when enemy units come forward to attack it. There is no point doing anything else with the colossus. Even if you tried to do it differently, nothing will come out of it.
Blizzard is out of touch with BW and how it became an e-sport. SC2 has the most of what I like to call "generic ranged units" that are just meant to be massed and attack.
Terran: Marines, marauders, thors Zerg: Roach, hydra Protoss: Stalker, immortal, colossus
These units dominate every matchup for the most part. It gives very little racial identity. These boring units exist but Zerg has banelings with burrow, roach burrow, infestors with burrow. Terran has marines, tanks, medivacs to micro. Protoss has blink stalkers, forcefield, phoenixes, chargelots, HT/DT
All these things are highly microable and make for very, very interesting games.
If you think Protoss is boring watch HuK play, I dont even play toss but I have the biggest man-boner for HuKs play.
If you think Zerg is boring watch Sen Baneling bomb the shit out of everything.
If you think Terran is boring, were not playing the same game.
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complexity kills a game... i love the supply cap...too much to do with too many units really scares potential players from testing out and being able to participate.
smart AI pathing would help a lot of newer players out
proposal: 1) have the option for continuous production out of a building 2) have options to scale priority for continuous production either by which building was built first or for the player to choose (50 minerals to a worker, next 50 minerals to marine) no queue 3) have smarter AI micro (i like the baneling unburrow autocast) i would also love to see spell-casters shoot spells on auto-cast (i would also love queens to inject larvae or be given the option to keep her energy low by spreading creep and for creep tumors to spread automatically after being given a general direction.)
EDIT: I think I like the way the game is right now. It works - best not screw it up.
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On June 13 2011 14:43 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 14:28 shadymmj wrote: No, the colossus is boring. It has vulnerabilities no doubt, but the general way to use this unit is to a-move and then move it back when enemy units come forward to attack it. There is no point doing anything else with the colossus. Even if you tried to do it differently, nothing will come out of it.
Blizzard is out of touch with BW and how it became an e-sport. SC2 has the most of what I like to call "generic ranged units" that are just meant to be massed and attack.
Terran: Marines, marauders, thors Zerg: Roach, hydra Protoss: Stalker, immortal, colossus
These units dominate every matchup for the most part. It gives very little racial identity. These boring units exist but Zerg has banelings with burrow, roach burrow, infestors with burrow. Terran has marines, tanks, medivacs to micro. Protoss has blink stalkers, forcefield, phoenixes, chargelots, HT/DT All these things are highly microable and make for very, very interesting games. If you think Protoss is boring watch HuK play, I dont even play toss but I have the biggest man-boner for HuKs play. If you think Zerg is boring watch Sen Baneling bomb the shit out of everything. If you think Terran is boring, were not playing the same game.
The problem with said units aren't that they are generic a-click units. The problem is that you can't make a bigger use of said units by microing. (most of them at least)
You can't do anything with roaches besides A-Click. There aren't any ability for zergs to make the roaches more useful than A-Click. There isn't a sinergy to make the unit better. The same goes for the hydra for instance.
What Sc2 is lacking is units that support each other and make them more powerful in the right hands, OR give units a unique ability that gives the better played a tool to make the unit more efficient.
For instance a stalker. A-clicking them is shit. If you have blink and blink back the wounded ones, they get more efficient. It's something for the eye and gives the player a chance to outplay the opponent with micro.
The other choice is by supplementing an unit to make it more efficient. For instance Marine Tank. The marine on itself is a great unit and deals great damage on its own. But it gets even more deadlier and better with the right support unit that improve their efficiency through right usage.
Sadly, Sc2 lacks such combination. Broodwar for example had many of them, either by positioning and unit micro, or with spells. Vultures / Tanks, lurker / defiler, shuttle / reaver and there are many more.
Sc2 should aim for more of those. They need to creature dynamics between units. The roach doesn't have any synergy with any zerg unit, the same goes for the hydra. There is no way to make the roach more efficient. And that's why people think they are bad units. Maybe they are overall bad, but maybe if something right was added, they could become interesting.
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On June 13 2011 15:02 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 14:43 Techno wrote:On June 13 2011 14:28 shadymmj wrote: No, the colossus is boring. It has vulnerabilities no doubt, but the general way to use this unit is to a-move and then move it back when enemy units come forward to attack it. There is no point doing anything else with the colossus. Even if you tried to do it differently, nothing will come out of it.
Blizzard is out of touch with BW and how it became an e-sport. SC2 has the most of what I like to call "generic ranged units" that are just meant to be massed and attack.
Terran: Marines, marauders, thors Zerg: Roach, hydra Protoss: Stalker, immortal, colossus
These units dominate every matchup for the most part. It gives very little racial identity. These boring units exist but Zerg has banelings with burrow, roach burrow, infestors with burrow. Terran has marines, tanks, medivacs to micro. Protoss has blink stalkers, forcefield, phoenixes, chargelots, HT/DT All these things are highly microable and make for very, very interesting games. If you think Protoss is boring watch HuK play, I dont even play toss but I have the biggest man-boner for HuKs play. If you think Zerg is boring watch Sen Baneling bomb the shit out of everything. If you think Terran is boring, were not playing the same game. The problem with said units aren't that they are generic a-click units. The problem is that you can't make a bigger use of said units by microing. (most of them at least) You can't do anything with roaches besides A-Click. There aren't any ability for zergs to make the roaches more useful than A-Click. There isn't a sinergy to make the unit better. The same goes for the hydra for instance. What Sc2 is lacking is units that support each other and make them more powerful in the right hands, OR give units a unique ability that gives the better played a tool to make the unit more efficient. For instance a stalker. A-clicking them is shit. If you have blink and blink back the wounded ones, they get more efficient. It's something for the eye and gives the player a chance to outplay the opponent with micro. The other choice is by supplementing an unit to make it more efficient. For instance Marine Tank. The marine on itself is a great unit and deals great damage on its own. But it gets even more deadlier and better with the right support unit that improve their efficiency through right usage. Sadly, Sc2 lacks such combination. Broodwar for example had many of them, either by positioning and unit micro, or with spells. Vultures / Tanks, lurker / defiler, shuttle / reaver and there are many more. Sc2 should aim for more of those. They need to creature dynamics between units. The roach doesn't have any synergy with any zerg unit, the same goes for the hydra. There is no way to make the roach more efficient. And that's why people think they are bad units. Maybe they are overall bad, but maybe if something right was added, they could become interesting.
roach infestor synergy not as good as lurker/defiler, but synergy none-the-less
actually i agree with you... sc2 is a bit like macro vs macro...who can get more units and A-move with the best concave...however, what could you propose?
i see some synergy such as zealot/sentry collosus/stalker infestor really synergizes well with anything i love marine/medivac/scv...honestly funny to be building mass bunkers with a good spread of stimmed marines (great for 3v3 games...don't try in 1v1s lol)
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SC2 is a great game and all that, but the skill level required to compete at the top in BW compared to SC2 doesn't even... it's not.. it just.. it isn't the same.
When I played BW I was always so incredibly amazed by all the little things players were doing in the game, it didn't matter that the engine was outdated or anything like that, just the sheer amount of things going on at once was incredible, compared to how I played at the time and what I could do compared to them.
I remember seeing a game just a while ago on Grubby's stream where he hadn't gone for some cheesy deathball, and the zerg he was playing against was counterattacking with lings at all four of his bases at once, and it was amazing and great to watch, which is what made BW so great as an esport (and still does).
I wish Blizzard would move away from the 200/200 clustered armies, and the 6 gate all-ins and aim for a happy medium like in BW whilst having a huge emphasis on unit control.
Zerg at the moment is almost completely 1a2a3a in SC2, and it's kinda disappointing, I would love to see units that require more micro, especially for Zerg. Terran already have stutter-step and Protoss already have blink and forcefield - which isn't really micro, but at least you're participating in the fight and not just watching after a-moving.
I dunno, seeing players that are painfully average (getting supply blocked LITERALLY every 20 supply) who are in grandmasters is just heartbreaking because they can 1a2a and win with cheese and poorly built all-ins, knowing that they would be in D+ on iccup.
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On June 13 2011 07:39 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:24 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: People overidealise BW while completely failing to realise starcraft 1 had terrible balance when it was first released; think the beginning of starcraft 2 and multiply it by a 1000. The reason it turned into what BW is now is because of blizzards hard work and dedication over more than 10 years, yet the same people are so quick to dismiss the balance in starcraft 2 after less than a year and before any expansion has been released. Seriously, people, rome wasn't build in a day; SC:BW sure as hell wasn't balanced/super awesome at the start and neither is SC2, but if you think blizzard will suddenly give up on SC2 (like they've never done on any of their games, there is no reason at all to think that) you're just wrong. The main thing that sucks from the transition from SC1 to SC2 is the people; everyone has turned into whiny, demanding and over-entitled people. You are what's wrong with SC2. Sorry? Blizzard didn't make ANY balance patch on SC1 for 10 years. 1.08 being the very last balance patch. They indeed neglected BW completely afterwards, letting hackers run rampant so the community had to find a solution by creating its own ladders and maps. BW was balanced and carried on through the community, NOT blizzard.
So true, and I think the same needs to happen for SC2. I think the community needs to take over at some point, and implement changes for the good of the sport. We have pros and great modders in the community, and everything to make something like this happen. However the obvious downside is splitting the community, and lack of decent ladder. Not to mention that a good time would have to pass before people even accept it. There would be no money in it for a while and it would have to compete with the mainstream SC2........... so yeah.... no go :/ lol
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I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already... but those are just horrible polls. Nevermind the bias inherent with the fact that internet polls are only answered by a certain cross section of people that play the game, but the way it's set up is just horrible. Have three different polls that between all the polls contain every unit in the game, and just ask for us to pick for the most uninteresting/boring unit in the mix. Then at a later date create a new poll made up of only those units, and nevermind this "first most / second most / third most" stuff. (btw, what's the medivac doing on this list???)
Anyway... cool thread.
I've always personally felt that SC2 could use more opportunities for micro in its units, and probably less hard countering (as was mentioned), so I'm hoping Heart of Swarm will bring that.
Of course, if Heart of Swarm returns lurkers (which I suspect it will, just because there's such a large fan demand), the game will change a TON to make room for them (unless they're implemented to be largely useless, e.g. tier 3)... so it will be interesting to see where HoS leads us. If Blizzard still can't bring the game up to BW levels, then I think that will be enough proof to show that Blizzard /should/ listen to the community more, and do so for Legacy of the Void (as is, I'd say it's still hard to tell... but it's hard to deny that Blizzard does seem to know very little about their own game at times).
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I banned myself after reading that load of hooey. You seem only interested in self promotion and making a long post and a long thread. Not very interesting....next. See you in a week TL and I hope they delete this thread by then or its gone.
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On June 13 2011 06:58 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids... What crawled up your ass?
Stupid people posting worthless content that only incites drama.
On June 13 2011 06:25 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids... You know, the fact that you actually went to the trouble of searching his blog for personal attack ammo is kind of pathetic. :/
I usually check blogs or previous posts from people who post trash. Saw that this guy is in high school and it fit perfectly with his lack of insight and worthless addition to this thread.
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On June 13 2011 16:02 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 06:58 arb wrote:On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids... What crawled up your ass? Stupid people posting worthless content that only incites drama. Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 06:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids... You know, the fact that you actually went to the trouble of searching his blog for personal attack ammo is kind of pathetic. :/ I usually check blogs or previous posts from people who post trash. Saw that this guy is in high school and it fit perfectly with his lack of insight and worthless addition to this thread. lol I'm sure my posts are all trash to you and maybe I should've just kept my mouth shut. I don't really understand though why what I said disturbs you so much. I wasn't trying to be mean, just express that SC2 is in a situation right now in which there is a lot of concerns over balance and enjoyability and such and I feel relieved that when I play and watch BW I don't have to worry about those said concerns. Also, wtf is wrong with me being in highschool? I didn't know that TL had an age cut off. ALSO! I did a bit of research of my own into your posting history, and its not too clean either. If you search just the term "BW" through your posts, you will see that almost everyone of your posts regarding "BW" are in a negative or demeaning reference.
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On June 13 2011 16:13 IamBach wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 16:02 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 06:58 arb wrote:On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids... What crawled up your ass? Stupid people posting worthless content that only incites drama. On June 13 2011 06:25 Toadvine wrote:On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids... You know, the fact that you actually went to the trouble of searching his blog for personal attack ammo is kind of pathetic. :/ I usually check blogs or previous posts from people who post trash. Saw that this guy is in high school and it fit perfectly with his lack of insight and worthless addition to this thread. lol I'm sure my posts are all trash to you and maybe I should've just kept my mouth shut. I don't really understand though why what I said disturbs you so much. I wasn't trying to be mean, just express that SC2 is in a situation right now in which there is a lot of concerns over balance and enjoyability and such and I feel relieved that when I play and watch BW I don't have to worry about those said concerns. Also, wtf is wrong with me being in highschool? I didn't know that TL had an age cut off. ALSO! I did a bit of research of my own into your posting history, and its not too clean either. If you search just the term "BW" through your posts, you will see that almost everyone of your posts regarding "BW" are in a negative or demeaning reference.
Posting a 2 sentence text that has no content or worth is trash to me. Replace SC2 and BW in your post and it could be about anything. If you feel like it's more worthwhile to watch BW due to it being less affected by balance changes and "lack" of playability then write it down. Don't just post a meningless two sentence reply.
I might have crossed the line with the whole "kid" thing and i apologize. As for my posts, i feel like i provide a thought out argument if i criticise stuff in BW.
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