*DreamHack Spoilers* I am so mad
Blogs > boesthius |
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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relyt
United States1073 Posts
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I agree completely with you boes | ||
Pandain
United States12862 Posts
Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. ' Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win". Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win. Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question... What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win? Is it skill? Micro? Macro? Meta game knowledge? On April 13 2011 06:37 Roffles wrote: No one deserves to win a game. If you don't win, you don't deserve to win. Doesn't matter how you lose, how great you may be, or whatever. If you lose, you lost. Doesn't matter if you're Flash playing Hyuk and Hyuk does some gay 6 pool shit while you 14 CC'd. You didn't deserve to win that game. That's a good point, and I agree (somewhat) with the sentiment. But let's lay out an example. Jinro is playing a zerg bronzie. Jinro has 5 bases(orbitals ofc for mass mules!). The zerg is obviously bronze, going gas first, than 7 pool. Jinro stops every chance for expo, macros up, and moves in his marine army for the win and then.... banelings burrowed destroy everything. And the zerg counter attacks and wins. So I guess the better question would be, is "playing better" mean you deserve it? I'm personally unsure. On one hand I agree with you, if you lost you lost. On the other hand, if you are the "better player" and the other person only won through sheer luck, how can you say that the bronzie actually deserves it? | ||
nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote: I think that's why so many people are upset. Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. No one deserves to win a game. If you don't win, you don't deserve to win. Doesn't matter how you lose, how great you may be, or whatever. If you lose, you lost. Doesn't matter if you're Flash playing Hyuk and Hyuk does some gay 6 pool shit while you 14 CC'd. You didn't deserve to win that game. | ||
RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
Yet they have valid points. E-sports is an entertainment industry. And that stuff isn't entertaining. Sometimes I think, that even though I wouldn't have found this community if not for GSL classic so1, this entire thing would go back to being a cool kid's club. I don't like how MC is an image or a celebrity of sorts. He is just a player who is known for some things. I don't like how sponsors/KeSPA treated progamers in bw. I don't like how Esports is becoming an industry. I am probably the only one with this perspective. Effective wins by MC, but yeah, to restate, the complaints are legitimate because they are not entertaining games. Spectators feel cheated for wasting their time. But as a player, I can respect MC's decisions. There is a huge difference between spectators/audience and players. And it is getting too large. Hence "I don't like how esports is becoming an industry." | ||
SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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GenoZStriker
United States2914 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Cheese is only annoying on ladder because ladder is for practicing and cheese is usually not what you're trying to practice against. The only thing that sucks is the mis-scout which is annoying because I'm sure it was a mistake from having played the map so much on ladder. I blame Blizzard's crappy maps for it though. | ||
fusefuse
Estonia4644 Posts
I was rooting for Ra, but OTOH i respect and know what a great player MC is, and the last game was a demonstration of it in a nutshell. He clearly outplayed White-Ra. Trying to devalue this by any means is stupid. fair n clear victory. And just to be a rebel and ridicule the first half of my post im now going to go with the posts that are going to flow in and say YEAH BOESTHIUS, TOTALLY!!! | ||
Pibacc
Canada545 Posts
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
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Belano
Sweden657 Posts
Next time White-ra. Next time. | ||
Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
Edit: AND it was a comeback. How can people be so angry over this? It's ridiculous that he can be so hated over this, I don't get it. Boxer got famous for winning tournaments with cheesy builds and MC gets hated. It's like people don't remember BW. | ||
Incursus
United States415 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:27 boesthius wrote: I'm mad. I'm fucking really mad. Who the fuck are you? Who the fuck are you to say what "strategy", what special tactics, what level of mechanics a player should or should not use to win. Let me bold that last part for you. Win. Wait, hold on, let me make it a little bit more noticeable if you still haven't gotten the point. Win Ok - let's take a step back, breathe, and chill out for a bit and analyze what happened this series. Game 1: Tal'darim Altar. Both open nearly identical builds at first, standard gate/gas/core. However, white-ra skips his initial zealot and gas and goes 4gate. MC gets a zealot out and then goes 3gate robo. White-ra sneaks a probe in to MC's main somehow, builds 4 pylons and then bulldogs his way through ff's and obliterates MC's army. Game 2: Metalopolis. Once again, they open the same way as before - white-ra skipping zealot, MC getting the zealot before stalker - both transition into 3gate robo at identical timings. However, this is the key difference here, MC builds an immortal after obs while White-Ra goes nexus and then robo bay for cols. MC goes for blink as well, putting him even further behind as he's getting tech while ra is getting an expansion. After a few tussles of trying to snipe each other's obs, MC finally engages, blinks up the base and snipes the robo, but since white-ra had that expansion up for so long he has more than enough units and a colossi to defend and MC gg's. Game 3: Crevasse. 4gate vs 4gate, however MC cuts probes at 20 to get the gates quicker and white-ra pumps probes continuously. MC wins, clear, cut, simple. Game 4: Xel'naga Caverns. This was a weird game, tbh. White-ra opened 100% the same we he did every game, 1gate gas core skipping zealot. They both go 3gate but ra goes robo while MC goes very fast blink. MC gets a very nicely timed blink up the ramp, focuses the immortals and focuses white-ra to gg. 2:2 Game 5: MLG Shakuras Plateau. This game. This game is the one that has caused me to go on tilt and ban so many nerds from this website today. White-ra opens standard while MC proxy 2gates inside white-ra's base. There are a few big things I want to point out before we talk about integrity and that all that jazz.
2.) It was MLG Shakuras Plateau. Well originally it was going to be TSL Shakuras Plateau but the map wasn't loading or something so they used the MLG version. This is extremely pivotal because they SHOULD know where each other are going to spawn - directly diagonal from each other. MC knew this, MC knew white-ra's game plan, MC used his knowledge that he had gained from playing White-Ra previously before Dreamhack and during dreamhack to out-strategize his opponent. White-Ra was either unaware that it was MLG shakuras or he forgot as he scouted both opposite mains, although he has played in both GSL and TSL so he should have known it was fixed positions even more-so than before. Both of these, plus white-ra not even scouting inside his base or his natural for any type of proxies in the first place, caused white-ra the game and MC to grab the win in both the mindgames and build order. Now let's actually talk about what people were getting so fucking worked up about - and that is MC inbase 2gate proxy against white-ra in the final game. I understand that cheese is "looked down upon" and I personally fucking HATE getting cheesed myself on ladder, however what the FUCK? Have you all forgotten what the point of these tournaments, these games, this entire entity of e-sports is about in the first place as a player? They are there to win. They're not flying across the world, playing in hundreds of tournaments, practicing for 10 hours a day to pander to your every whim of how they should play. If they were doing that, Starcraft 2 as an e-sport would be incredibly boring, lifeless, and would not exist today. Have you forgotten about boxer's bunker rushes vs yellow? Jaedong's 6pool vs Flash? Julyzerg's 5pool game 1 and then 9pool drone drill game 2 vs best in the OSL finals? MC's proxy 2 gates in game 5 were smart. SMART. I had already stated this earlier in this post but what MC did was incredibly smart, ESPECIALLY considering the maps. White-Ra had been doing the same exact build order every single game, so inherently MC knew that Ra was going to 1gatecore skip zealot and then scout. Every single game this series White-Ra did this. Every. Single. Game. Taking this knowledge, compounding it with the knowledge of playing him in the GSL and TSL, and then finally adding in that it's fixed-positions Shakuras Plateau - why SHOULDN'T he 2gate proxy? Incredible read and execution by MC. Let me quote what Nazgul and Hot_Bid in the thread, they sum up perfectly what my rage-induced mind is trying to say: Starcraft is a e-sport, they play to win. I'm sorry that MC didn't pander to your every desire of him following your every build order whim. Maybe you should go watch WWE, or play more games like Mass Effect. God I'm so mad. Fully agreed. Why is everyone being so harsh on MC, I mean anyone who was in that situation who knew a way they could win, that was perfectly fair and within the rules of the game would have done the same thing. MC figured White Ra out and figured that this proxy would be effective at bringing him down. His analysis was correct and as a result he was victorious. By being so harsh on MC you're also dissing White Ra, if MC's play was skill less and crappy what does that make White Ra? The games were great to watch for me as a Protoss player, learning new things about PvP and how to play it is always a fantastic thing. And seeing these two players who obviously have world class PvP duke it out was awesome. I do understand why people are upset over this victory, deep down inside most of us wanted White Ra to win. He is an awesome player and a foreigner who almost took out the best Korean player. You all should be thrilled for White Ra doing this well against MC, I mean MC is the best in the world at the moment. This of course is subject to change at any moment, but MC has been showing the most consistent results as of now. White Ra and MC played extremely well, MC won fairly and legitimately. We all know he can play the game however he needs to, to score the victory. I know he can play a macro game scarily well, as he did against Byun. And have you all forgotten that game on Lost Temple between MC and Rain? I mean fucking hell guys, watch that again for the love of god, saying MC has to be a "Faggot" to win? Are you fucking SERIOUS? Watch that game and tell me he has no skill? Go ahead, diss on Rain all you like. But let me tell you something about Rain, he started out a cheeser, and yeah he did it a lot. He did what it took to make the money, which is after all why someone becomes a pro gamer. It's a profession and making money sorta provides food to eat. But back to Rain, Rain got knocked out of Code S first season, and everyone was dissing him and playing down MC's win over him the previous season, surprise Rain made it back into Code S. Proving a point, that he really does have skill. And MC was able to take this guy down in an incredible way. MC should have lost that game, there's no way around it, but he played perfectly, he played beyond perfectly. It's so funny that you all have forgotten the caliber of playing here. By being this disrespectful to MC you are being disrespectful to White Ra as well, think of what White Ra would do in this situation, he would be completely mannered and you know it. MC out played White Ra in this series, White Ra made a few mistakes which ultimately cost him the games. I think White Ra has the skill to bring down MC, I don't doubt it for a minute. I think White Ra will continue to get better and we will probably see him obliterate some Koreans sometime soon. What kind of people are you that you feel you have the right to flame MC for doing what it takes to win. Leave me alone and let me watch the games and play them. | ||
-orb-
United States5770 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. | ||
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote: I think that's why so many people are upset. Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. ' Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win". Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win. Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question... What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win? Is it skill? Micro? Macro? Meta game knowledge? WTF? There is no "deserving" in Starcraft. You can quantify it subjectively however the hell you want, but a win is a win and a loss is a loss. There is no objective standard that will tell you who is the most "deserving" of a win in a series between two Starcraft players. This isn't poker, where you can quantify decisions statistically and determine whether they were "right" or "wrong" based on what you know about the hands. For example, pushing all-in holding 33 against someone who reraised aggressively preflop with KK is a terrible decision. If the guy holding 33 wins the pot and knocks the guy with KK out, he got lucky on his 20% chance to win. Did he "deserve" to win? Maybe not. But, this is not poker. You can't say that a 2 gate proxy has an x% chance to win and MC got lucky and therefore he won but didn't deserve to win. The fact is, everything about MC's play in, I would argue, every set, showed that he is the better player. Whitera didn't adapt well, seeing as he went for the same build every game. I would argue that Whitera was an idiot to not have cheesed after being up 2-0 or even 1-0. PvP is a volatile matchup and you can't pigeonhole yourself with the same build every game, because no build in PvP is safe against everything. Whitera didn't adapt, and he didn't play well in the fifth set. He lost. MC won. end of story. 5/5 on the blog btw. | ||
zeru
8156 Posts
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Warrice
United States565 Posts
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Belano
Sweden657 Posts
Just had to be said^^ | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote: So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No. MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. Exactly. I could not have said it better. | ||
Belano
Sweden657 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote: heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds. Well the whole point of SC2 is to win. Wouldn't that mean that the most skilled player is the player that wins the most? | ||
broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
"OMFG an ALL-IN?! You are depriving me of watching an awesome full-scale macro game.. YOU HAVE NO HONOR!!" c'mon guys.. | ||
Warrice
United States565 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:58 Belano wrote: Well the whole point of SC2 is to win. Wouldn't that mean that the most skilled player is the player that wins the most? that depends on the definition of skill, and how id like to define skill is how good you are at all areas of the game. | ||
thehitman
1105 Posts
The 5th game he did a cheese and won. You can't deny that it was a cheese, so you might as well accept why people are pissed at him. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:00 broz0rs wrote: I just feel a lot of the ragers think SC2 is some kind of martial art where you need to follow a bunch of manners and gentleman rules apart from game mechanics and strategy. In their minds: "OMFG an ALL-IN?! You are depriving me of watching an awesome full-scale macro game.. YOU HAVE NO HONOR!!" c'mon guys.. Those non official rules around honnor and such exist in almost EVERY damn game played at a good enough level. In football, you put the ball out of the field when a guy is down and the opposing team give the ball back after. In rugby, you help your opponent to get up and touch his ass in the most gayest fashion, etc. | ||
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:01 Warrice wrote: that depends on the definition of skill, and how id like to define skill is how good you are at all areas of the game. MC is good at all areas of the game. He played the better mind game. He had the better micro. He had excellent macro and late game play vs Idra. He's amazing at defense or setting the pace of the game with aggression. He wins, a lot, against every race. MC is skilled. | ||
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:03 thehitman wrote: stop whining boesthius, because while a win is a win, it doesn't give you the right to ban people who think MC cheesed his way to winning, which is absolutely true. The 5th game he did a cheese and won. You can't deny that it was a cheese, so you might as well accept why people are pissed at him. He didn't ban people for calling cheese. He banned people for personal insults against MC because they wanted White-Ra to win. | ||
mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote: I think that's why so many people are upset. Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. ' Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win". Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win. Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question... What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win? Is it skill? Micro? Macro? Meta game knowledge? That's a good point, and I agree (somewhat) with the sentiment. But let's lay out an example. Jinro is playing a zerg bronzie. Jinro has 5 bases(orbitals ofc for mass mules!). The zerg is obviously bronze, going gas first, than 7 pool. Jinro stops every chance for expo, macros up, and moves in his marine army for the win and then.... banelings burrowed destroy everything. And the zerg counter attacks and wins. So I guess the better question would be, is "playing better" mean you deserve it? I'm personally unsure. On one hand I agree with you, if you lost you lost. On the other hand, if you are the "better player" and the other person only won through sheer luck, how can you say that the bronzie actually deserves it? You are wrong, sure the 2 gate proxy was super risky. But it wasn't a blind risk. I wouldn't call this win luck-based, here's why. -MC analyzed White-Ra's play, from this finals, and from previous encounters, and concluded that white-ra was DEFINITELY going to scout late. He probably didn't doubt a second. Thus, in the context of THIS finals, with THESE players involved, MC's play is strategically brilliant. It's different if I go to ladder and proxy gate every time. There, I'll be playing entirely luck-based, since I have no idea if my opponent scouts or not. In this game, MC had a great degree of certainty that white-ra wasn't going to scout, making cheese extremely effective. If this weren't the case, MC wouldn't have used cheese. | ||
Wolf
Korea (South)3289 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote: I think that's why so many people are upset. Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. ' Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win". Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win. Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question... What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win? Is it skill? Micro? Macro? Meta game knowledge? That's a good point, and I agree (somewhat) with the sentiment. But let's lay out an example. Jinro is playing a zerg bronzie. Jinro has 5 bases(orbitals ofc for mass mules!). The zerg is obviously bronze, going gas first, than 7 pool. Jinro stops every chance for expo, macros up, and moves in his marine army for the win and then.... banelings burrowed destroy everything. And the zerg counter attacks and wins. So I guess the better question would be, is "playing better" mean you deserve it? I'm personally unsure. On one hand I agree with you, if you lost you lost. On the other hand, if you are the "better player" and the other person only won through sheer luck, how can you say that the bronzie actually deserves it? This isn't a good example cause its like your looking at it as if its a ladder match or a 1 and done tournament. What if it was game 1 of a Bo3 like dream hack and Jinro loses that first game to the Bronze player so what. There will be outrage at first but everyone will probably call the bronze player ballsy for trying it knowing he was outmatch. The next 2 games Jinro being a superior player shows and he probably wins the Bo3 easily 2-1. No one remembers it and mostly forgets the cheese of the first game. If the proxy 2 gate was game 1 and a epic game of Colossus wars was the final deciding game no one would really be upset about the cheese. Its like everyone wants a Last second Fade away jumper at the buzzer for every final match. Or a Daigo vs Jwong "Comeback" its live and real not scripted like Botheius said in his blog. I understand being disappointed at the final match cause it didnt present drama and excitement. Stooping to level of calling MC a "Faggot" "Cheater" just shows people can't express their opinions in a civilized manner with out resorting to immature name calling. Alot of people go offensive at the first sign of displeasure because they know on TL you will get challenged. Most people here will have a friendly debate of your points as long as you don't go full "immature". Im not directing this at you that you where calling him a Fag and such cause you said your reasoning why you dislike the way it went down in the series in a reasonable way. | ||
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote: heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds. He got to 4 base vs Idra in a super long 200/200 macro game and won without losing a building. MC has a ton of skill. Perhaps even more than Nestea and MVP. MVP is also successful because he's aggressive with timing attacks and can play a variety of styles like MC, and has excellent control like MC. | ||
Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
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Gnax
Sweden490 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote: heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds. Winning = being best. Skill = have the potential to be the best. | ||
red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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Warrice
United States565 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:03 Zzoram wrote: MC is good at all areas of the game. He played the better mind game. He had the better micro. He had excellent macro and late game play vs Idra. He's amazing at defense or setting the pace of the game with aggression. He wins, a lot, against every race. MC is skilled. he didnt beat idra in a macro game, idra beat idra in a macro game, and like i said 75% of his wins are on one and two base and they are all timing attacks. Yes he also has good micro, ill give him that, but who cares if he wins vs every race is he does the same thing vs every race, 4 gate 6 gate void rays. all timing attacks. | ||
adeezy
United States1428 Posts
White-Ra vs MC series was exciting though. I've realized, after watching HuK's stream, that a lot of PvP is 4gate vs 4 gate, blink stalkers vs blink stalkers, and it goes down to micro. MC played it right by throwing White-Ra off, it was an amazing decision that shows just how smart MC is. However to the more childish spectators, they just see it as a cheese. | ||
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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Kazzabiss
1006 Posts
oh...my...god That's perfect | ||
Longshank
1648 Posts
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Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
The fact that their was actual discussion in the Liveperson thread about whether MC 'cheated' is insanity, nothing short of insanity. | ||
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:07 Warrice wrote: he didnt beat idra in a macro game, idra beat idra in a macro game, and like i said 75% of his wins are on one and two base and they are all timing attacks. Yes he also has good micro, ill give him that, but who cares if he wins vs every race is he does the same thing vs every race, 4 gate 6 gate void rays. all timing attacks. So if someone is playing greedy or bad and leaves an opening where they are weak to attack, MC should not attack and wait for 200/200? That's what you call skill? Attacking when you know you can win, due to scouting and superior control, that takes skill. Waiting around until 200/200 is the macro robot way, and certainly doesn't indicate more skill. | ||
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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seupac
Canada148 Posts
mc went straight for the jugular and exploited a huge weakness in his opponents play. if you watched that last game and thought whitera deserved to win, you have no concept of starcraft whatsoever. if a player goes for a strong lategame at the cost of a very VERY weak earlygame (not even scouting your base in pvp??) you would be a subpar player to not take advantage of it | ||
adeezy
United States1428 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:07 Warrice wrote: he didnt beat idra in a macro game, idra beat idra in a macro game, and like i said 75% of his wins are on one and two base and they are all timing attacks. Yes he also has good micro, ill give him that, but who cares if he wins vs every race is he does the same thing vs every race, 4 gate 6 gate void rays. all timing attacks. You must not watch oGs MC play. There's a reason he does timing attacks, it's to take command of the flow of the game. He makes the opponent respond to what he does and not the other way around. | ||
KaveX
Germany59 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:37 RoieTRS wrote: I don't like how esports is becoming an industry. Dude, e-sports is an industry since 10 years. The first Western player contracts were signed in 2003. I agree with the OP – MC did nothing wrong, it would be stupid to limit the game to macro-oriented strategies –, just with one key difference: I don't mind people bashing on MC. That's basically what he gets for playing such a risky, not long-term oriented strategy that might have been anti-climatic for most spectators. Anyone who doesn't like MC now, may feel free to do so. Actually you may even feel free to dislike MC just because he's Korean and White-Ra is a cooler guy – you're entitled to do that as a spectator. Nothing wrong about being mad at MC for using proxygates in the final match, noone should force you to think that the winner deserves it. Emotions are okay, even important for e-sports to work. I'd only disagree with people not respecting MC because he did that – because it's clearly his right to do so, and it worked out perfectly, thus it was the right decision without a doubt. Just because someone isn't extraordinarily entertaining, it doesn't mean his playstyle should be discouraged or anything. He won another title, he won it in a fair manner, he is by no means a noob because of this. If you don't like him because of it – fine. Just don't pretend that what he did was wrong. | ||
ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
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~_~
Canada239 Posts
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ohGr
Sweden42 Posts
Did I get sad, seeing WR lose? Yeah, of course I did (see statement above:should be pretty obvious). Did I enjoy the finals? I definitely did, I've never had as short finger nails as I have now. Do I rage at MC for winning? Hell no, why should I. He won, plain and simple. Unfortunately there will always be whiners and ragers, they're in every sport amongst supporters. | ||
SKtheAnathema
United States885 Posts
"wahhh timing attacks, wahhh cheese" aka if only your favorite players were smart enough to defend or scout these simple attacks, they'd beat this dishonorable korean cheeser easily, but they aren't. | ||
Battleaxe
United States843 Posts
And as far as respect goes, if you don't have respect for a player, how about you show some self-respect and stop looking like a child whining on a forum about it. People are so quick to attack others, when the reality is if you knew as confidently as MC did you could walk away with $15,000 USD (I think that's how much they said 1st was) by proxy 2 gating, there'd be a lot less people throwing stones | ||
tdt
United States3179 Posts
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
But please, ban as many people as you possibly can. The more, the better. | ||
Chill
Calgary25938 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote: So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No. MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Edit: If players artificially created epic games, they wouldn't be epic. The thing that makes them epic is that they got to such a stalemated, drawn out situation, while trying to fucking murder each other every second of the match. | ||
Essentia
1150 Posts
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KaveX
Germany59 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:15 ~_~ wrote: Anyone else think that if White-Ra had proxy gated and won that there would be no whining ? Even if that was true: So what? Spectators don't have to be impartial – actually it's better if they aren't. | ||
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:13 KaveX wrote: Dude, e-sports is an industry since 10 years. The first Western player contracts were signed in 2003. Other than that, I agree –MC did nothing wrong, it would be stupid to limit the game to macro-oriented strategies–, just with one key difference: I don't mind people bashing on MC. That's basically what he gets for playing such a risky, not long-term oriented strategy that might have been anti-climatic for most spectators. Anyone who doesn't like MC now, may feel free to do so. Actually you may also feel free to dislike MC just because he's Korean and White-Ra is a cooler guy – you're entitled to do that as a spectator. Nothing wrong about being mad at MC for using proxygates in the final match, noone should force you to think that the winner deserves to be the winner. Emotions are okay. Even important for e-sports to work. I'd only disagree with people not respecting MC because he did that – because it's clearly his right to do so, it worked out perfectly, thus it was the right decision without a doubt. Just because someone isn't extraordinarily entertaining, it doesn't mean his playstyle should be discouraged or anything. He won another title, he won it in a fair manner, he is by no means a noob because of this. If you don't like him because of it – fine. Just don't pretend that what he did was wrong. Nothing wrong with saying you don't like MC, his playstyle, or his personality. There IS something wrong with calling him a noob, a skill-less cheeser, and a f@g (which you will find plenty of in pages 500+ of the LR thread). I'm pretty sure boes limited his banhammer for the latter and not the former. I for one like the fact that TL tries to rise above the muckery that is battle.net (or any other | ||
Alver
United States177 Posts
let me start by saying im a huge fan of whitera but he didint play safely at all. he tried to do a counterbuild to the 4gate stalker build that was based around cutting corners in many ways. it was honestly an incredible read by mc to figure out his gameplay alone between games and do a cheese that was almost zero risk because he completely read his opponent. if white-ra opened the way mc does (and is the most standard pvp opening in the gsl) that rush might have failed without even scouting it, it would have 100% failed if it was scouted. despite mc's HUUUGGGEEE confidence in his micro skills, he was willing to put 15k$ on a proxy because he knew how much white ra cut corners and turned an incredibly risky build that doesnt rely on micro (so completely not his style) into an incredibly safe one....for one game. | ||
Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:15 ~_~ wrote: Anyone else think that if White-Ra had proxy gated and won that there would be no whining ? Would've been more like "SPECIAL TACKTICKS BEAST FROM THE EAST SO GOOD!". I understand why people can get so excited about a foreigner winning, but cmon now. | ||
CaptainFwiffo
United States576 Posts
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KaveX
Germany59 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:22 red4ce wrote: Nothing wrong with saying you don't like MC, his playstyle, or his personality. There IS something wrong with calling him a noob, a skill-less cheeser, and a f@g (which you will find plenty of in pages 500+ of the LR thread). I'm pretty sure boes limited his banhammer for the latter and not the former. I for one like the fact that TL tries to rise above the muckery that is battle.net (or any other Exactly! (Of course, one might argue that people call him a skill-less cheeser because of emotions and not because they actually think so, but the point still stands.) | ||
youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:10 Piski wrote: I don't really understand this huge ass argument. I'm a Whitera fanboy and I'm hugely disappointed he lost and crying inside how badly I wanted MC to lose. I haven't posted any QQ posts here but I can understand people who did. Even Hotbid and Nazgul posted here asking why the hell people are reacting like they are but isn't them just supporting players? I mean lets take footballs world cup as a example. Lets say I'm supporting my favorite team to win it, I don't really care if there is better teams or some other team could/is providing me better games. I still want MY team to win. When my team isn't playing I totally just want to enjoy the game and I apperciete when teams play awesome skilled football, but when my team plays I just want them to win. I accept that MC outplayed Whitera in that last game, mindgames wise at least but that doesn't mean I will be "Oh MC so great, you're such a good player" :f No. I wanted him to lose. Even in other sports people go crazy and bm the other team. I'm not saying it's acceptable but it just shows they are super passioned about their favorite players. Why is it so bad that people cheer for their player to win even if the other player is playing better (sorta) Of course bm is not really tolerated here so I can understand the few bans but people shouldn't be surprised that people are biased towards their favorite player. I can and do appreciate good games/series but I still want my fav player to win. Why E-sports should only be us appreciating good games, we do but we want our favorite players to win ^^ I pulled this out of the live report thread, I can't say it any better than this. | ||
Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
Posting this because it's sort of relevant, and hilarious I don't see why people get so worked up when someone cheeses. It's fucking hilarious and awesome when it works in a pro-level match. | ||
419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:19 Chill wrote: Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Its not also bad, the premise is also wrong. Chang vs Lendl, French Open Ro16, 5th set -- on Chang's serve, 15-30 while a break up. Lose the point and be down 2 break points, win the point and take back the momentum. If not match point, it was pretty damn close to one. The choice to serve underhand was brilliant, and its probably one of the more remarkable sets in tennis history for this very reason. Anyways, Boes fighting ~ | ||
Parametric
Canada1261 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote: So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No. MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. It was intense up until I realized white-ra wasn't going to scout inside his main on a map with effectively 2 spawn positions. MC read WR like a book (same build 5 times in a row) and wrecked him in the last game. The reason it was boring was because WR wasn't going to have a chance to fight back because HE didn't scout HIS own main. I can't believe people are blaming MC for taken advantage of mistakes and tendencies of his opponent in a strategy game. Even if you're rooting for WR you have to admit he lost that last game by not knowing the map, being predictable, and that MC won because he took advantage of those faults. Edit: And I don't even like MC, | ||
Nomadic
United Kingdom312 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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Tuneful
United States327 Posts
Your blog reminds me of this Herm Edwards speech: | ||
tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:33 Zzoram wrote: Saying bm is good because it's in football is also not really a good reason for bm. Football bm is awful and out of control. People riot when their team loses, destroying cars and property. Modelling the Starcraft community on the football community isn't something to aspire to. Yup nerds are supposed to be smarter than that. Use logic not emotion and stuff. I often wish you could rate manner on the ladder to exclude these dicks, they wise up real quick like with an F rating and not get games. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote: heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds. The thing is that MC has the ability to have a strong macro game after transitioning out of his famous timing attacks. Jinro himself once posted here that MC has strong macro play, except most people don't even see it because the opponent usually dies to his timing attacks. In fact, MC has usually wins when he takes a 3rd base. MC vs Marineking from GSL3 on Blistering Sands. MC vs Rain from GSL3 on Lost Temple. MC vs Byun from GSL5 on Terminus Re. In fact, the ability to transition out of all-ins and timing attacks is what sets most Koreans apart from non-Koreans, including MC himself. Leenock easily transitioned out of a 6pool against Guinea Pig back in GSL3 and won in an intense macro game. MC's timing attacks are strong openers but are not always all-in, especially stuff like his 6gate PvZ push or his MC-style PvT pushes. Unlike Idra, who would GG at the first sign of his build failing, MC doesn't auto-lose when his timing attacks fail, and most of his losses come from him being counter-attacked during the transitional phase if the he didn't deal enough damage. Plus, the best players in the world aren't necessarily going to please the audience with 100% macro games all the time. Jaedong wasn't afraid to 4pool or do zergling run-bys, even against Flash in an OSL finals. Stork wasn't afraid to 4 gate against Flash with 2 of the gates being proxied. Flash bunker rushes against greedy FEs all the time. On the other end of the spectrum is Canata, who is almost too much of a macro player and is often criticized for being boring, predictable, and thus a weaker player than the top BW players who aren't afraid to mix in cheese into their builds for wins. As others have said before me, MC is a great player for actually having the balls to use cheese in a BoX situation. MKP isn't only feared for his tempo-based, aggressive Bio play. He is also feared for his unpredictability in throwing in cheese or extremely risky decisions into his play, any of which can easily take out anyone when not scouted. Like it or not, cheese is an essential part of being a top, well-rounded player in addition to being able to play normal games. | ||
Sermokala
United States13542 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:37 sermokala wrote: didn't boxer have bad macro in the old days and became so famous for chese and winning in onebaseish wins? Technically, all players back in Boxer's day had bad macro, so one-base wins and cheese were commonplace back then and not as hated as nowadays where we are so accustomed to epic macro games. Boxer cheese was quite appreciated since it was so well thought-out sometimes and so ludicrously risky at other times that it would actually be entertaining to watch him cheese since it would be so action-packed and tense and not necessarily an auto-win. Of course, he also could easily win in straight-up games, especially since it's kinda hard to cheese with Dropships, which he was most famous for using. | ||
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:37 sermokala wrote: didn't boxer have bad macro in the old days and became so famous for chese and winning in onebaseish wins? The difference is that MC is excellent at macro games but his games usually don't make it that long because people die to him too early. Once people start surviving his push, he can then be a dominating macro player and people will still hate him. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32244 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42213 Posts
I hope you guys might go so far as to bring down warnings/ the banhammer on some of the people who QQed with ad hominem attacks and curse words, because it really just spoils the entire atmosphere as a whole. In the Dreamhack thread, I had to post this because I got so frustrated: + Show Spoiler + After such an amazing tournament, I really can't believe how much whining we're getting about MC winning, especially since he was the huge favorite anyway. I love White-Ra, and he played incredibly well overall, but the fact that he was unable to scout his own base made him lose the game, and MC was just plain ballsy with that last move. Cheesing isn't cheating, and you play to win. Period. If you don't like the fact that a player's top priority is to win instead of entertain you, then you probably shouldn't be watching any tournament with a prize pool. When money is on the line, players use strategies that they're comfortable with. You're not always going to see amazing games or crazy builds. If you don't like the fact that MC tricked White-Ra in the last game, then just talk about something not related to MC. Or don't post at all. The QQ regarding MC's strategy doesn't need to be included. Post about how awesome White-Ra played overall, or how Dreamhack was an amazing tournament. Don't post bullshit about how MC needs to cheese to win, or how he doesn't have real skill, because his achievements have already proven that he's one of the best SC2 players in the world. | ||
Longshank
1648 Posts
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deafhobbit
United States828 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:27 boesthius wrote: Have you forgotten about boxer's bunker rushes vs yellow? Jaedong's 6pool vs Flash? Julyzerg's 5pool game 1 and then 9pool drone drill game 2 vs best in the OSL finals? MC's proxy 2 gates in game 5 were smart. SMART. For some reason, i think 95% of the people bitching in the LR thread don't even know about these games. Anyway, i didn't watch the games, since i really don't follow Sc2, but based on what you described white-ra deserved to lose. Opening the same build five games in a row is stupid, and something that should be punished. | ||
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:34 Tuneful wrote: Well said all around, Boes. Your blog reminds me of this Herm Edwards speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I HELLO? YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!! And... in the words of Mike Ditka to the haters: "You see that? That's your iq, buddy, zero." | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42213 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:47 Longshank wrote: Seriously, the day people WOULDN'T be upset about seeing their favorite player knocked out by silly cheese is the day I'd be worried about e-sport as a concept. Stop whining about whining already, it's healthy and crucial to the scene that people actually do care. Except there's a difference between people merely being upset/ disappointed that their favorite player lost, and people accusing the winner of being a skill-less noob who only cheeses (or cheats) and is some sort of low-life idiot who should be throwing games because it's occasionally more entertaining to lose than it is to win. The difference, of course, is that there is a level of tact, intelligence, and thought that goes into the posts of someone who may be disappointed but understands the situation, whereas there isn't for the latter group of people. | ||
Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:37 sermokala wrote: didn't boxer have bad macro in the old days and became so famous for chese and winning in onebaseish wins? Nobody had good macro when Boxer made a name for himself really. Go check out some really old school BW VODs for some fun. It's like watching a totally different game. The things people do make your head hurt, and they have half of the units/tech that they should at any given time, but they work. Because the other guy is doing the same thing. | ||
Longshank
1648 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:51 boesthius wrote: There's a difference between getting upset about your favorite player losing and expressing it, and then calling someone a faggot who doesn't deserve to win on top of making remarks towards the game that are just simply untrue. I'm all for people being upset about stuff like their favorite player being knocked out - I was livid and then verrrrry sad when stork got 3-0'd by Fantasy in the latest OSL finals. I'm upset whenever nony loses a match/tourney/etc. I, however, understand why they lost and the reasons being are the player's fault for losing. So that was 2 or 3 out of thousands browsing the LR thread. Way to make a hen of a feather. | ||
Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. | ||
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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reprise
Canada316 Posts
I never thought I could get angry reading something on the internet. | ||
dapanman
United States316 Posts
I couldn't care less about the outcome of that match because WhiteRa showed he can post some good results over MC. I can say I think it was a little anticlimactic for game 5 to be over before WhiteRa's pylon started (queued his probe back rather than scouting main). I understand people's frustration at seeing the white hope get knocked out like that but I don't think the majority of people believe MC was undeserving. I find it hard to believe you take the Internet this seriously; just ban the idiots and move on. PS: I do find it funny that the only person who got redtexted in your OP (others could have been banned since your quoting, I concede that) was by far the most tame, he just had the bad sense to reply to Nazgul. If I had my way I'd drop the hammer on the "faggot" posters first. Alas... **edit: Oh god, I said stupid minority, ahahaha. Clearly I should mean stupid majority. | ||
Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
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Clamev
Germany498 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42213 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote: boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job. In a tournament format, where there's a prize pool, the money goes to the winner... not the most creative player. I do think it would be interesting if there were contests and showmatches that showed off innovation, but tournaments are all about who's the best. And players will therefore do whatever it takes to win, even it means playing standard or repeating builds. Personally, I pay to see the best play possible. For me, innovation is fun but I understand that they need to make a living. | ||
red4ce
United States7313 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:01 Longshank wrote: So that was 2 or 3 out of thousands browsing the LR thread. Way to make a hen of a feather. Way, way more than 2 or 3 dude. More like 2 or 3 per page. | ||
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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dapanman
United States316 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:14 boesthius wrote: Nah I'm not really that angry to be honest, just disappointed that I have to spend the time to ban such drivel. The posts that I quoted were all from people I had banned from the LR thread, the last one had the red text because I just straight direct quoted it instead of c/p it. It's just really disheartening to see this community that I love begin to turn towards this mindless posting; albeit it's not the entire community of course. Well that's good to hear, your OP just kinda seemed like preaching to the choir to me is all. Alternatively as: "Stupid people still stupid, more at eleven." | ||
RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote: They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are. | ||
Clamev
Germany498 Posts
No they are not. They are primarily Athletes. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42213 Posts
Haha the players are entertainers to the extent that they may do an in-game celebration after they're 100% certain they've won... the same way a basketball team plays to win and a player will only entertain on a breakaway and do a cool looking dunk if he's 100% certain he won't be stopped. Note that the Harlem Globetrotters don't actually play in the NBA, and for good reason. | ||
zeru
8156 Posts
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deafhobbit
United States828 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote: boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job. Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. Yes, it is that simple. You put the money out there for the players to win, and if you don't like how they go about doing it, stop watching. | ||
Longshank
1648 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:04 boesthius wrote: Did you not read the LR thread? For a good 30 pages or so it was post after post after post after post of garbage. Report after report flooded in for this, and it's a nightmare trying to moderate it; let alone incredibly disappointing to see after being ingrained into a community so much - specifically Teamliquid. Way to be overly condescending about an issue I feel strongly about. Yes I read it and very few resorted to name calling. But if you object to people using the LR thread to vent their immediate frustration then you should consider not allowing LR threads on TL. People were upset and angry but that's 100% a good thing. | ||
Longshank
1648 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:20 zeru wrote: Do you see football players as entertainers, what about poker, or chess? What makes you think they are entertainers. They play as their job, for the money, getting fans is just a side effect of being good at their job. It has nothing to do with being an entertainer. Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player? | ||
tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
I didn't watch the games so I wouldn't know. Still, I'd guess that people wanted White-Ra to fulfil the Cinderella story and represent the non-Korean players to take MC out. MC was always the villain in their mindset then, and this belief must have seemed to be vindicated with MC's blatant cheese and White-Ra's tragic mis-scouting. | ||
f0rk
England172 Posts
Fuck it then, lets base the whole thing on wrestling. | ||
zeru
8156 Posts
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channery
United States15 Posts
In football, coaches freeze kickers. In basketball, the opposing teams foul each other intentionally to stop the clock. In soccer, people can handball deflect an incoming goal (although illegal sort of). In baseball pitchers walk batters who have a great reputation. Whatever the sport, there are moments of subtlety; it's up to the viewer to be responsible, not a sport losing it's integrity to be "more entertaining." Whatever that means right? | ||
Clamev
Germany498 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:23 Longshank wrote: Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player? Do you think he got this fanbase because he was doing different stuff from other people or because he did stuff that other people did not think if and WON with them? Nobody would care for TLO if he would be a diamond leaguer doing "creative" stuff. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
After Idra/MC, it was balance bitching, and after MC/White-Ra it was everyone bashing on MC. It's possible to dislike a player and still respect his capabilities as a player. Really annoying to read about. ESPECIALLY since this seems to be turning into a trend. Badmouthing something you don't like, such as a match-up, or a player, instead of cheering or ;~; 'ing after a game. People need to enjoy watching SC2 more, instead of hating life every time they do. | ||
Longshank
1648 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:27 zeru wrote: I think you would enjoy WWE, maybe starcraft isn't your thing if you don't understand that the players play the game they play to win money. Uhm, no, what gave you that idea? I hate WWE, I also hate the fact that ¨fan base and popularity is such an obstacle for many top players to get invited to events like these. Popularity seems just as important as skill and that sucks. A player like Kas should have been here, unfortunately the invites were sent out before his splash in TSL3 when he became known to the masses. That he's been dominating the EU for months already doesn't matter. It's still the reality. | ||
Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
Even if you got outplayed on every single decision in the game and still won it teams you did make the right decision on the best moment possible. A win is a win a loss is loss. It doesn't matter at all how although longer games are obv a bit nicer to watch. Specifically about game 5 of white-ra vs MC: It was mainly white-ra's fault, a 15k game and you don't scout at 9 pylon in a PvP? come on. He also went to to the horizontal position first which isn't even a possible spawning location if I remember correctly, also lost time. He didn't scout his base (Naniwa would have stopped this /facerollmode) just saying. Off course MC took a big risk but White-ra played EXACTLY into his cards with every move he made. So GG deserved win for MC | ||
holy_war
United States3590 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:23 Longshank wrote: Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player? TLO was invited for both reasons. First of all, he is a top player (5th at recent MLG) and second of all he is entertaining and popular. | ||
Grantiere
United States129 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:19 Chill wrote: Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Edit: If players artificially created epic games, they wouldn't be epic. The thing that makes them epic is that they got to such a stalemated, drawn out situation, while trying to fucking murder each other every second of the match. Chill, you're awesome, but I disagree - I don't think it's that bad of analogy, I just have a different reaction. In 1989, a 17-year-old Michael Chang was in the quarterfinals of the French Open against world #1 Ivan Lendl. Dropping the first two sets in a best of five, he clawed his way back into a deciding fifth set. At a pivotal point late in the set, having watched Lendl play his serves deep and hammer them, Chang tried something different: "Still cramping, still barely able to stand, the shot was a simple underhanded serve, a quick flick that took Lendl completely off-guard. Lendl lost the point, then started screaming at the umpire and the French crowd. He found himself down 15-40 in the next game, with a second serve, when Chang stepped inside the baseline, up nearly to the service box, to take the serve. Lendl was clearly steaming. His serve bounced off the tape, went long and Chang sunk to his knees with the win. "I was trying to break his concentration," he told Sports Illustrated after the 4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 6-3 drainer. "I would do anything to stay out there." Many saw the underhanded serve and the bold move to take Lendl's serve so close as sheer underhanded sportsmanship. It's a common move nowadays, stepping inside the baseline to try to take serves on the rise. But few ever have stepped that close. And underhand serves are still a novelty, a trick shot. No one has ever used one in a more important point in a bigger match." 34 career titles and a peak #2 world ranking later, that serve is still what Chang is remembered for, and is one of the most memorable shots in French Open history. The contextual similarities - it was a great read on how the opponent was playing him, it took massive balls, it was in the 5th set of a match he started down 0-2 late in a major tournament, and was the sign of someone who would fight and scrap and do anything to win. He got shit for it at the time, and some people like hugman and White Dog might still, but the vast majority recognized it as something pretty damn awesome. The match became a signature of Chang's tenacious style, much like I suspect the White-ra match will be a signature of MC's pure balls-to-the-wallness. The irrelevant similarites - Lendl was the old-school European home-continent favorite, Chang was the Asian (American) foreigner. Oh, and Michael Chang. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/1999/french_open/news/1999/05/22/tenyears_changfrench/index.html Edit: Oh, and on hugman's comment that boring deciding games are bad for e-sports - a boring game wouldn't have generated this level of attention or passion. This was exciting, even if only contextually, and I'd argue the drama only benefits e-sports. I'd also argue that having someone like MC at the top is beneficial, because he has what so few other athletes, nevermind progamers have - a personality, and a willingness to show it. | ||
mucker
United States1120 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:30 Sated wrote: I agree that we shouldn't insult someone for doing the best they can to win because that's what they're there to do. It's ridiculous to personally insult MC for using prior knowledge to do something pretty clever. At the same time, we also have to recognise that this doesn't mean the game itself was entertaining. It was a terrible way to end a tournament and that is always going to leave a bitter taste in the mouths of the "purists" of any given sport, it isn't something that applies to just Starcraft II. Lay off MC, though. He won the tournament, hence he probably deserved it... even if I think IdrA could've beaten him if he wasn't so prone to raging. Starcraft purists stand up and applaud when someone that slips as badly in their fundamentals as White-Ra did gets exposed and crushed by a cheese. He didn't vary his strats in a series, he didn't know the map and he didn't scout the inside of his base when going against a protoss. Don't like how the tournament ended? Blame White-Ra. | ||
Chill
Calgary25938 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote: boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job. Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. I think it's worthwhile to break down exactly what everyone's bottom line is from an SC2 tournament: Players: Win money. They get invited to the tournament for a variety of reasons, and they may jeopardize that if their playstyle doesn't sit well with fans. A combination of entertainment, appreciable skill, and past results will allow them to get invited to future events. Casters: Earn money. They get invited to the tournament for a variety of reasons, and not performing up to the expected level may jeopardize that. A combination of entertainment, appreciable skill and past results will allow them to get invited to future events. Tournament Hosts: Earn money. They get sponsors rewarding the tournament for viewership. Not performing up to the expect level may jeopardize future sponsorship. Viewers: Spend money for entertainment. I think you can see it's not really in the players' scope to be entertainers. It would be nice for everyone if they were good and entertaining, but it's way moreso in the hosts' interest than their own. It is almost entirely in the tournament hosts' scope to allow the tournament to be competitive while forcing it to still being entertaining. They can do this by modifying the format to reduce the effectiveness of cheese and uninteresting builds / styles, modifying the maps to reduce the effectiveness of cheese and uninteresting builds / styles, or by simply not inviting players with uninteresting styles. | ||
xVoiid
Canada199 Posts
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
like chill said, you can't force or expect "epic" games. all you can expect is for the top players to play their best -- because when they don't play their best, they'll lose. the only games that are "epic" are those back-and-forth, hard-fought matches -- they don't even have to be long -- where both player is absolutely doing everything he can to win. | ||
smashedpotato
Australia9 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote: So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No. MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. I beg to differ..sure cheese is a cheese, but MC's absurdity in attempting that at the highest level of the game is mind boggling and decidedly calculative. He wasn't farming for quick results on ladder, he chose to use that particular strat on that particular map in that particular situation (the decider). People are saying it was a coin toss, sure it was extremely risky move but I think it was more of a well-thought out punt at what would best give him the win in the situation. gg no re | ||
Backpack
United States1776 Posts
I also think that the gossip (that's what it is) that infests many threads on TL and other places just breeds negative attitudes. All it takes is one troll post in a LR thread and then 50 pages of rage come afterward. I've just about lost all faith in internet forums : / Tasteless once said "Teamliquid is like the Bank of America, it's too big to fail and I stopped using my account there 5 years ago." I can see why. edit: i got a little off-topic, but the quantity of angry posters wanting to share their anger with other angry posters just degrades most topics here into pointless arguments | ||
CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
Though calling MC a faggot is out of line; nice venting blog though ~_^ | ||
loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:37 Roffles wrote: No one deserves to win a game. If you don't win, you don't deserve to win. Doesn't matter how you lose, how great you may be, or whatever. If you lose, you lost. Doesn't matter if you're Flash playing Hyuk and Hyuk does some gay 6 pool shit while you 14 CC'd. You didn't deserve to win that game. Nonsense i deserve to win every ZvP I play Edit: I put my opinion on this in the DH thread and im lazy so il just copy paste that here There's a difference between being disappointed in the games and being disappointed in the player. I was disappointed by the last game, and in general I dislike watching MC because I dislike the abusive, all in style he employs in the vast majority of his games. That being said, I have nothing against MC himself. He tries to win and he picks strategies that play to his strengths (his micro) and cloud his *relative* weaknesses (his management). There's nothing wrong with that so theres really no reason to blame MC or hate on him but it still doesn't mean I don't find his games boring, stupid, and anti climatic, | ||
PanN
United States2828 Posts
Sorry chumps, but it's apart of the game and if it worked, it was intelligent. | ||
Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On April 13 2011 09:08 Backpack wrote: I think people have just been spoiled by BW and they havn't transitioned well. This whole idea that a game isn't entertaining unless each player has 5+ bases doesn't apply to SC2. I thought people would be used to lower base count and faster games by now but apparently a year wasn't enough. No way. Cheesing in up to 2(3 if you're REALLY crazy) games in a bo5 is actually a staple of BW. The complaining from people who miss BW is from people who hate it when EVERY game is a 1 base all-in, which is not nearly as true of SC2 anymore. All this complaining is about the cheese in one game of a series. Calm 4pooled Fantasy twice in the OSL semifinals | ||
PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 13 2011 09:33 Turgid wrote: No way. Cheesing in up to 2(3 if you're REALLY crazy) games in a bo5 is actually a staple of BW. The complaining from people who miss BW is from people who hate it when EVERY game is a 1 base all-in, which is not nearly as true of SC2 anymore. All this complaining is about the cheese in one game of a series. Calm 4pooled Fantasy twice in the OSL semifinals Don't forget boxers bunker rush, I think thats the definition example of what we're currently discussing. | ||
Liquid`Nazgul
22426 Posts
They entertain, but are not entertainers. Do you see the difference? They are athletes, and athletes entertain, but they are not entertainers in the sense that they need to go out of their way to amuse you. They amuse you with their skills and desire to win. | ||
tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 09:08 Backpack wrote: I think people have just been spoiled by BW and they havn't transitioned well. This whole idea that a game isn't entertaining unless each player has 5+ bases doesn't apply to SC2. I thought people would be used to lower base count and faster games by now but apparently a year wasn't enough. I also think that the gossip (that's what it is) that infests many threads on TL and other places just breeds negative attitudes. All it takes is one troll post in a LR thread and then 50 pages of rage come afterward. I've just about lost all faith in internet forums : / Tasteless once said "Teamliquid is like the Bank of America, it's too big to fail and I stopped using my account there 5 years ago." I can see why. edit: i got a little off-topic, but the quantity of angry posters wanting to share their anger with other angry posters just degrades most topics here into pointless arguments I think they never were in the BW scene. Posts hover below 300 for people we are talking about. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Because thats what it was - a clutch as hell play, where he says fuck it, I could lose doing this but I think I will win more times than I lose, and more times than playing normally as well. To do that in the final game of a tournament where second place doesnt get shit, is clutch. If you cant respect that type of play, I dont think you get what makes a great player. | ||
RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On April 13 2011 09:56 RoieTRS wrote: There is exactly as much hiveminding going on in this thread as there are in live report threads. thats the only explanation | ||
svi
405 Posts
he knew that he had a high probability of winning, since white-bot never changes his early build. there was no luck involved in exploiting a player that plays like a computer. | ||
aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
Instead, what I got was a great, intelligent post that I completely agree with. The sheer amount of MC bashing was just painfully annoying to read through. Fortunately, we also had plenty of actually intelligent posters refuting the whiners/haters, thus cementing my good faith in the general TL community. | ||
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
Jinro said it best On April 13 2011 09:47 Liquid`Jinro wrote: To do that in the final game of a tournament where second place doesnt get shit, is clutch. If you cant respect that type of play, I dont think you get what makes a great player. | ||
HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:37 RoieTRS wrote: boesthius I agree. Yet they have valid points. E-sports is an entertainment industry. And that stuff isn't entertaining. Sometimes I think, that even though I wouldn't have found this community if not for GSL classic so1, this entire thing would go back to being a cool kid's club. I don't like how MC is an image or a celebrity of sorts. He is just a player who is known for some things. I don't like how sponsors/KeSPA treated progamers in bw. I don't like how Esports is becoming an industry. I am probably the only one with this perspective. Effective wins by MC, but yeah, to restate, the complaints are legitimate because they are not entertaining games. Spectators feel cheated for wasting their time. But as a player, I can respect MC's decisions. There is a huge difference between spectators/audience and players. And it is getting too large. Hence "I don't like how esports is becoming an industry." I don't think it's a fact that cheese isn't entertaining, but you seem to be treating it like such. Different people find different things entertaining. Personally, when cheese occurs, my heartrate goes up and I go on the edge of my seat watching it all unfold. People need to stop speaking for everyone when they talk about what is and what isn't entertaining. I'm pretty sure that people with enough foresight and with good observational abilities will be entertained by realizing the mindgames and calculated strategy behind what MC does, rather than just seeing cheese, taking it only on surface value, and whining about it. | ||
Joementum
787 Posts
On April 13 2011 10:17 aimaimaim wrote: Give him a break .. He just wants to be the 'Emperor' on SC2 :D No. No. And. No. There can only be one Emperor and no more. He may be a Prime Minister if he wishes, but no Emperor. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
On April 13 2011 10:31 Joementum wrote: No. No. And. No. There can only be one Emperor and no more. He may be a Prime Minister if he wishes, but no Emperor. He's already the President Protoss. I don't think he will run for reelection to be Prime Minister, unless he is a Putin. | ||
ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:48 Incursus wrote: Fully agreed. Why is everyone being so harsh on MC, I mean anyone who was in that situation who knew a way they could win, that was perfectly fair and within the rules of the game would have done the same thing. MC figured White Ra out and figured that this proxy would be effective at bringing him down. His analysis was correct and as a result he was victorious. By being so harsh on MC you're also dissing White Ra, if MC's play was skill less and crappy what does that make White Ra? The games were great to watch for me as a Protoss player, learning new things about PvP and how to play it is always a fantastic thing. And seeing these two players who obviously have world class PvP duke it out was awesome. I do understand why people are upset over this victory, deep down inside most of us wanted White Ra to win. He is an awesome player and a foreigner who almost took out the best Korean player. You all should be thrilled for White Ra doing this well against MC, I mean MC is the best in the world at the moment. This of course is subject to change at any moment, but MC has been showing the most consistent results as of now. White Ra and MC played extremely well, MC won fairly and legitimately. We all know he can play the game however he needs to, to score the victory. I know he can play a macro game scarily well, as he did against Byun. And have you all forgotten that game on Lost Temple between MC and Rain? I mean fucking hell guys, watch that again for the love of god, saying MC has to be a "Faggot" to win? Are you fucking SERIOUS? Watch that game and tell me he has no skill? Go ahead, diss on Rain all you like. But let me tell you something about Rain, he started out a cheeser, and yeah he did it a lot. He did what it took to make the money, which is after all why someone becomes a pro gamer. It's a profession and making money sorta provides food to eat. But back to Rain, Rain got knocked out of Code S first season, and everyone was dissing him and playing down MC's win over him the previous season, surprise Rain made it back into Code S. Proving a point, that he really does have skill. And MC was able to take this guy down in an incredible way. MC should have lost that game, there's no way around it, but he played perfectly, he played beyond perfectly. It's so funny that you all have forgotten the caliber of playing here. By being this disrespectful to MC you are being disrespectful to White Ra as well, think of what White Ra would do in this situation, he would be completely mannered and you know it. MC out played White Ra in this series, White Ra made a few mistakes which ultimately cost him the games. I think White Ra has the skill to bring down MC, I don't doubt it for a minute. I think White Ra will continue to get better and we will probably see him obliterate some Koreans sometime soon. What kind of people are you that you feel you have the right to flame MC for doing what it takes to win. Leave me alone and let me watch the games and play them. Excellent point about how degrading MC degrades White-Ra as well! Also, to further your point about MC vs. Rain... go watch MC vs. Nada GSL January, or MC vs. July Group A GSL March. July got a four-kill in the WC Showmatch, NaDa is a two in a row Ro8'er, 3 Ro8's overall, and is the tornado terran, feared for his BW macro, which has carried over at least some. Watch his games vs. ZeNexByun, Ro16 GSL March, a player known for his strong defensive macro. Rain won in solid macro games vs. a Ro4 and consistent ro8'er HongUn He rolled them. In macro games. They stood no chance. Jinro has told us that MC's strength is not timing attacks, just noone is good enough to get past that stage. You (MC dissers) are fighting against 6 games of results, the sentiments of the best and most beloved foreign player out there. Edit: Also: On April 13 2011 09:47 Liquid`Jinro wrote: "Is he a sick or what?" - Naniwa while watching the last game. Because thats what it was - a clutch as hell play, where he says fuck it, I could lose doing this but I think I will win more times than I lose, and more times than playing normally as well. To do that in the final game of a tournament where second place doesnt get shit, is clutch. If you cant respect that type of play, I dont think you get what makes a great player. QFT, Another Jinro backing, and not a debatable one either. On April 13 2011 10:17 aimaimaim wrote: Give him a break .. He just wants to be the 'Emperor' on SC2 :D Oh, and this jewel XD | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
He did what he thought gave him the optimal chance of winning. If you were in his spot with however many thousands of $$ on the line and in-base two-gate proxying gave you that best chance, you'd take it. MC is there to win the $$ not to entertain. The funny thing is, if Ra were the one who cheesed in the fifth game, I bet the outrage would not be nearly as big (I dare say people would praise his boldness). | ||
Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote: So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No. MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. You're assuming anyone, including MC or White Ra, cares about who you 'respect.' We don't. So don't wave it around as if it's an asset that anyone has to earn. ALL of these players are way better than you. You should learn to respect that. If people like you had their way, every game would be NR15 played on novice maps with rocks preventing any rushes. Though this isn't even entirely true, because you actually love it when a foreigner beats a Korean with cheese. So how about you just cut the crap and admit the player you wanted to win didn't win, and you and people like you are throwing a hissy fit? | ||
-_-
United States7081 Posts
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FakePlasticLove
United States357 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
Long macro games are interesting when they occur naturally, not when every player feels they have to do it just to appease the crowd. Start a NR15 tourney and see how successful that is. | ||
Kibibit
United States1551 Posts
On April 13 2011 12:04 -_- wrote: I'm fine with fans hating MC for not playing how they want. They're not taking any of MC's money back. Players shouldn't be indignant when fans don't react exactly how they want. If you want to reap the benefits of being a fan favorite, you may have to play in a less than optimal way. There's a pretty clear line between "I dislike MC" and "Fuck that guy, he's a fag" though. Especially considering the situation. | ||
oZii
United States1198 Posts
On April 13 2011 12:15 Kibibit wrote: There's a pretty clear line between "I dislike MC" and "Fuck that guy, he's a fag" though. Especially considering the situation. Agree ^^ i think the main point of the OP is you can dislike the path to victory, but keep in perspective of how victory was obtained and that is in the line of war. The prize is 15,000 anyone would be cut-throat in the finals to achieve victory for that kind of money. Its any means necessary. If you take the perspective that its not ladder and 15,000 big ones are on the line. You have never won any major tournament ever and your broke need to pay bills. In the end your not thinking about fans or admiration your thinking about the cash on the line the money. If fans hate they will hate oh well. Im paying this car note off, and Im paying this credit card off I'm out of debt with money to spare. I can help my parents out cause there in trouble. Thats the mindset these players have in these tournaments. I need to WIN cause there is big money on the line. If people love me thats second to my profession. I need to, I must win!! This is how I survive every month. | ||
Turgid
United States1623 Posts
edit: though obviously I think it's enough to want to be a champion. | ||
Sarang
Australia2363 Posts
IMO, people who bitch and whine like this in the LR threads should get week long bans at least. The two day bans don't really seem to be that much of a deterrance. And people saying "He should have played a better strategy for the fans!"? Really? So if you were in that situation, you would potentially throw away $15,000 just to not piss off a bunch of morons? MC won. He beat White-Ra. Deal with it. | ||
Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
MC has been put in 2 extremely difficult position in the tourney and as what we expect from a champion he rose above and fully deserve the title. For noobs that surprise of game 5 you guys need to learn a bit history of SC. Cheese in a Bo5 is EVERYWHERE in SC event semi-final or final or OSL, MSL(2 most prestige Starleague in the world). | ||
Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
People are starting to sound like Korean Netizens, Starcraft is finally becoming a more international Esport!! | ||
Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
Context is all it comes down to. | ||
Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
can u relax? But yea, some people just confound me. Nerds will be nerds, though, and they just gooootta' hate. | ||
Harrad
1003 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Now that I know differently, it's totally White-Ra's fault for not checking his base on a 2 player map and scouting late and incorrectly. It's also his fault - as stated above - for doing the same opening in every single game. MC did what it took to win, and he deserved it. Definitely love the MC vs White-Ra motif floating around in the SC2 world, they make PvP actually interesting to watch. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Remember the World Cup?My country played absolutely disgusting in terms of football, GUESS WHAT?It worked, and we got to the finals(although we lost ofcourse). A win is a win. Aside from this there is a quite a large amount of people who only want to see 1 thing, to see Koreans lose and ''foreigners') win. Therfore if a foreigner does something wrong and a korean stomps him people will complain about the Korean......but with vice versa, I don't see it happening so fast. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:19 Chill wrote: Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Edit: If players artificially created epic games, they wouldn't be epic. The thing that makes them epic is that they got to such a stalemated, drawn out situation, while trying to fucking murder each other every second of the match. Epicness comes in off the chart situation that goes with tension and stress, everybody agrees with that. MC's cheese is not off chart, he is a cheesy player, he is basically using timing attack and cheese 90% of the time, and the 10% rest is when his opponents force him to go for a third and more or kill him. I don't understand all the whine about the whine, it feels like all the MC's fan just cannot accept we critisize this kind of play. It is our right as viewers to think what we want about this type of play, even if MC is the uncontested best protoss at the moment. It is our right to think that SC2 should be deeper than just a bunch of quick 5 to 15 min games with one expand at best and low tier tech units. I will just say one thing, the most epic game on SC1 in my opinion, and one of the most reviewed game, was the 1v1 between BoXer and Iloveoov for i don't remember what purpose where, at some point, BoXer locked down a fleet of battle cruiser with a bunch of ghost. Those games were like 1 hour long. Its not also bad, the premise is also wrong. Chang vs Lendl, French Open Ro16, 5th set -- on Chang's serve, 15-30 while a break up. Lose the point and be down 2 break points, win the point and take back the momentum. If not match point, it was pretty damn close to one. The choice to serve underhand was brilliant, and its probably one of the more remarkable sets in tennis history for this very reason. Anyways, Boes fighting ~ It's Roland Gaross and it was, at the time, saw as one of the most disrespectful move made by a young player (Chang) against an old legend (Lendl). Not to mention, that's THE ONLY EXEMPLE YOU CAN GIVE US. There are no other exemple of famous point with that kind of serve. Act become epic because we are not seeing them every damn day. Doing this was more risky: that kind of serve is weaker than normal serve in term of speed. MC is all about cheese, stop calling epic something that is not. I hate people making the comparaison between Michael Chang and MC the cheeser, have some respect ? | ||
Harrad
1003 Posts
On April 13 2011 21:34 WhiteDog wrote: Epicness comes in off the chart situation that goes with tension and stress, everybody agrees with that. MC's cheese is not off chart, he is a cheesy player, he is basically using timing attack and cheese 90% of the time, and the 10% rest is when his opponents force him to go for a third and more or kill him. I don't understand all the whine about the whine, it feels like all the MC's fan just cannot accept we critisize this kind of play. It is our right as viewers to think what we want about this type of play, even if MC is the uncontested best protoss at the moment. It is our right to think that SC2 should be deeper than just a bunch of quick 5 to 15 min games with one expand at best and low tier tech units. I will just say one thing, the most epic game on SC1 in my opinion, and one of the most reviewed game, was the 1v1 between BoXer and Iloveoov for i don't remember what purpose where, at some point, BoXer locked down a fleet of battle cruiser with a bunch of ghost. Those games were like 1 hour long. The above would be true if there was some DreamHack Grand Finals Honor Code that stated you can't use strategy x, you can't attack before x min etc. There wasn't, which means only wins and losses matter (just like on ladder). MC wanted to win so he chose the strategy he thought he could win with. Of course you can criticize MC for doing that, but I don't think trash talk is necessary. | ||
Trolle
Sweden227 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On April 13 2011 21:34 WhiteDog wrote: Epicness comes in off the chart situation that goes with tension and stress, everybody agrees with that. MC's cheese is not off chart, he is a cheesy player, he is basically using timing attack and cheese 90% of the time, and the 10% rest is when his opponents force him to go for a third and more or kill him. I don't understand all the whine about the whine, it feels like all the MC's fan just cannot accept we critisize this kind of play. It is our right as viewers to think what we want about this type of play, even if MC is the uncontested best protoss at the moment. It is our right to think that SC2 should be deeper than just a bunch of quick 5 to 15 min games with one expand at best and low tier tech units. I will just say one thing, the most epic game on SC1 in my opinion, and one of the most reviewed game, was the 1v1 between BoXer and Iloveoov for i don't remember what purpose where, at some point, BoXer locked down a fleet of battle cruiser with a bunch of ghost. Those games were like 1 hour long. It's Roland Gaross and it was, at the time, saw as one of the most disrespectful move made by a young player (Chang) against an old legend (Lendl). Not to mention, that's THE ONLY EXEMPLE YOU CAN GIVE US. There are no other exemple of famous point with that kind of serve. Act become epic because we are not seeing them every damn day. Doing this was more risky: that kind of serve is weaker than normal serve in term of speed. MC is all about cheese, stop calling epic something that is not. I hate people making the comparaison between Michael Chang and MC the cheeser, have some respect ? First of all, calling MC a cheesy player is pretty hilarious. Name another game where he proxy gated. Just one other game. Yeah thought so. Second, your dribble did not address the points of the person you quoted. In fact, you basically proved him right that epic-ness should come naturally. Third, why does whiner use the term 'whine about the whine,' as if somehow the fault has been reversed now? We're pointing out holes in the reason you whine. You can't refute them, so no we are not gonna stand by idly while you bad mouth players while clearly not having an idea of anything you are talking about. If you can't understand what's wrong with what you're doing, let's just paint it in reverse: If someone talked shit about White Ra and called him names like faggot and that he must suck because he didn't scout his base, you think it's okay to let that go? Lastly, you say SC2 should be more than 5-10 minute games, well that's not how the game currently is. Get over it. Forcing some arbitrary 'samurai code' rules onto players as spectators will not make the game better. If the game should evolve into a more macro-based game, it will either be the players discovering new strategies that change the strategy component of the game, or changes from Blizzard. It should NOT come from whiny spectators. That is all. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
On April 13 2011 23:25 Ocedic wrote: First of all, calling MC a cheesy player is pretty hilarious. Name another game where he proxy gated. Just one other game. Yeah thought so. Second, your dribble did not address the points of the person you quoted. In fact, you basically proved him right that epic-ness should come naturally. Third, why does whiner use the term 'whine about the whine,' as if somehow the fault has been reversed now? We're pointing out holes in the reason you whine. You can't refute them, so no we are not gonna stand by idly while you bad mouth players while clearly not having an idea of anything you are talking about. If you can't understand what's wrong with what you're doing, let's just paint it in reverse: If someone talked shit about White Ra and called him names like faggot and that he must suck because he didn't scout his base, you think it's okay to let that go? Lastly, you say SC2 should be more than 5-10 minute games, well that's not how the game currently is. Get over it. Forcing some arbitrary 'samurai code' rules onto players as spectators will not make the game better. If the game should evolve into a more macro-based game, it will either be the players discovering new strategies that change the strategy component of the game, or changes from Blizzard. It should NOT come from whiny spectators. That is all. Well said, though the first part about MC's proxy gates is a bit inaccurate. MC also famously proxy-gated in game 3 of the GSL3 finals against TSL_Rain on Steppes of War. Granted, it was good old Steppes, so I didn't expect anything other than cheese. | ||
CokaOath
Hong Kong75 Posts
"July got a four-kill in the WC Showmatch, NaDa is a two in a row Ro8'er, 3 Ro8's overall, and is the tornado terran, feared for his BW macro, which has carried over at least some. Watch his games vs. ZeNexByun, Ro16 GSL March, a player known for his strong defensive macro. Rain won in solid macro games vs. a Ro4 and consistent ro8'er HongUn He rolled them. In macro games. They stood no chance. Jinro has told us that MC's strength is not timing attacks, just noone is good enough to get past that stage." Com'on. you really need to watch more MC's game before judging. MC rolls everyone in macro game. | ||
trancey
United States430 Posts
SC2 Fans need to understand this, | ||
shaman6ix
Greece212 Posts
getting in the top is not nearly as difficult as STAYING there and being consistent with continuous results (just watch all the other gsl winners, especially MVP). On top of that he has developed for himself that baller attitude which makes it even harder to be consisted and always motivated because it adds so much pressure on you - if and when you lose EVERYONE will be standing in the corner waiting to badmouth you unlike other more likeable personalities like Boxer or TLO (while TLO cheeses all the time in the past few tournaments no one has anything bad to say because he's the ''fan favorite''). YET, he manages to stay focused, highly motivated, go through all that and continue to dominate almost everything he participates in. That, my friends, takes B A L L S. BALLS OF STEEL. Haters gonna hate. | ||
cocoa_sg
Singapore296 Posts
It is sad, but naturally, the "foreigner never cheeses" mentality is still here in TL at times. TLO gets glorified for his 5-rax rush, while OGS_MC, having 'cheesed' only TWICE in the entire Dreamhack tournament, gets bashed left and right. I want both foreigners and Koreans to be able to do their best in tournaments, and to play to WIN, regardless of the spectator value. That being said, Idra's BM second game against MC was very martyring. Why give up so easily by 6-pooling out of rage? Did you hope that by sacrificing yourself (and further disappointing your sponsors in the meantime), you would get the Zerg race buffed and the Protoss race nerfed? Why not learn from JulyZerg? He is a zerg himself, yet he never complains much and just all-kills his opponents (i.e. in the GSL World Championships). Learn from him please, or switch races. =3 | ||
bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
I watch boxing over MMA for the fact that two guys rolling around on the ground grappling each other instead of throwing punches standing up doesn't entertain me, but I don't fault MMA fighters for doing what will give them victory. | ||
a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Sethronu
United Kingdom450 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
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TheloniousMonk
Australia41 Posts
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On April 14 2011 06:05 Bippzy wrote: Everyone must now proxy 2 gate in PvP to honor god toss and to piss everyone off! You will honestly win most of your PvPs like this in my experience on ladder. I'm not a good player at all so I don't know if I can say this for sure but I actually think it's less map dependent than cannon rushing. I also find it a lot more fun than 4gating. Proxy 2gate is actually kind of a blast haha | ||
PlaGuE_R
France1151 Posts
hell, i got banned for defending MC not long ago lol, although it was wrong to derail the thread, it aggravates me that there are so many of these idiots around :[ | ||
Strike_
Netherlands704 Posts
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
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sleigh bells
United States358 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote: So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No. MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. chang v. edberg french open widely considered one of the ballsiest performances of all time. bad analogy anyway (as chill said). don't talk random shit about sports you actually don't even follow. also, arthur ashe v. jimmy connors where ashe hit everything soft and low bc connors actually couldn't handle that. considered one of the most brilliant matches of all time. if you have actually played tennis, you're obviously one of the guys who just tapped everything back to you and couldn't beat them and then raged about how you were "better." | ||
Enki
United States2548 Posts
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tehplank
977 Posts
On April 14 2011 08:50 Enki wrote: Well, it was a disappointing ending to an amazing tournament, that was my mine gripe. People need to put themselves in MC's shoes though, he had an idea of how White-Ra was building, he used a build made to exploit that. 15k was on the line guys, 15 thosand dollars. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have done the same in his position if you were almost guaranteed a win? I agree. People need to put themselves in MC's shoes. There's 15 grand on the line. If there's a build that has the best chance of me securing that cash, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm a big White-Ra fan but what MC did was understandable considering that he spends all his time refining his play in order to win tournaments. They play to win cash, guys. They are not there to play 4-base 200/200 games every game just to cater to the viewers. If you want to see those long-ass macro games, then stop typing rants in TL, start up SC2 and get better. Once you do that, go sign up for tournaments and voila. You can play all the macro games that you want in tournaments. Until you can do that, I suggest that you step aside, shut the hell up, and let these progamers do their jobs. | ||
deerpark87
760 Posts
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/gpkoz/ogsmc_responds_to_criticism/ From oGsMC's twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/oGsMC 누가 영어로 해석해서 나를 욕하는 외국인에게 보여줬으면 좋겠다 화이트라는 5판연속같은빌드를 했고 난 그 빌드의 카운터빌드를 했을뿐인데 그걸 가지고 치즈라니 질럿 안뽑고 시작하니까 전진게이트를 하지... 천칠백만원짜리 게임인데 확신이있으니깐 한거고 "I hope this is translated and shown to foreigners who are criticizing me. White-ra did the same build 5 times in a row, and I merely did the counter-build. How can people say that is cheese? Since he doesn't start by producing a zealot, I proxy gate... It was a 17 million won game, I did it because I was certain I would win." | ||
shaman6ix
Greece212 Posts
no skill hahahahaha what a sore loser... he was funny some time ago, but he has become the disgrace of the sc2 community. someone must take this 13yo from the hand and show him the real world already, | ||
zZygote
Canada898 Posts
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
On April 14 2011 17:29 shaman6ix wrote: [–]EGIdrA 17 points 4 hours ago no skill hahahahaha what a sore loser... he was funny some time ago, but he has become the disgrace of the sc2 community. someone must take this 13yo from the hand and show him the real world already, pretty sure that isn't him | ||
Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
Same thing applies here. | ||
Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On April 14 2011 17:37 zZygote wrote: Hey you guys, it's another PvP MATCH. Battle of the build order, and MC seemed to get the upper-hand in this rock-paper-scissors match-up. It's hardly rock paper scissors to scout on 12 and not check your base and not make a zealot. It's just greedy. You can play relatively safely in PvP by just 4gating with the plain ol make a zealot build, and you should always scout your base for proxies. | ||
Flare23
United States27 Posts
Playing to Win as found on http://www.sirlin.net/ptw , this is a online series of articles in regards to the design and psychologies associated with competitive gaming. The section "Introducing...the Scrub" (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html) may be of particular relevance to this current discussion. The below is taken from the article... "Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win. The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter. In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start. You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all." I recommend anyone who is serious about gaming to read these articles, as they are both quite enlightening and entertaining. | ||
War Horse
United States247 Posts
On April 14 2011 08:50 Enki wrote: Well, it was a disappointing ending to an amazing tournament, that was my mine gripe. People need to put themselves in MC's shoes though, he had an idea of how White-Ra was building, he used a build made to exploit that. 15k was on the line guys, 15 thosand dollars. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have done the same in his position if you were almost guaranteed a win? It was exciting as hell, I don't know where you get it was disappointing. White-Ra should not be so predictable. | ||
Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
It was a great strat to use after seeing white-ra go stalker rush to slow any 4gate play in every game. Decision on Xel to go quick blink was great also. White-ra had some good wins himself. Great series all around. | ||
DNB
Finland995 Posts
On April 14 2011 23:28 Flare23 wrote: I recommend anyone who is serious about gaming to read these articles, as they are both quite enlightening and entertaining. Thanks for linking me to the site. It's truly interesting... | ||
Schenkee
Scotland322 Posts
On another random note, if anyway here is a Formula 1 fan then you might remember this: Rubens was leading and slowed down at the line to let his team mate past so his team mate could get the win and more points in the Championship, even in one of the worlds biggest sports people 'Cheese' to win. Competative sports are all about 1st place and only 1st and players should do w/e it takes(within the rules) to be 1st as its what they train for even if it might not be a fun watch for some. | ||
xlat
176 Posts
the game is about winning. the game is about taking calculated risks to do the above. in order to do that you read your opponent and act if that calls for an all-in you do it the game is about winning, not fucking please some backseat player on a forum i really have never understood why people get so upset when people win by punishing the other player for doing greedy builds or slacking on scouting or whatever. when my favourite player gets punished by a 4pool or proxy or something i get mad at that player, not the opponent. | ||
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On April 14 2011 17:29 shaman6ix wrote: [–]EGIdrA 17 points 4 hours ago no skill hahahahaha what a sore loser... he was funny some time ago, but he has become the disgrace of the sc2 community. someone must take this 13yo from the hand and show him the real world already, Why don't you calm down and ask around if thats the real idra first? | ||
Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
On April 14 2011 17:29 shaman6ix wrote: [–]EGIdrA 17 points 4 hours ago no skill hahahahaha what a sore loser... he was funny some time ago, but he has become the disgrace of the sc2 community. someone must take this 13yo from the hand and show him the real world already, If you got that from reddit thats not the real IdrA | ||
jspark703
39 Posts
Translation: I hope someone can translate this and show it to non-koreans that are trolling about me. Whitera did the same build 5 times and I just countered it and what is cheese about that? he doesnt get the first zealot and I of course do proxy gate.. it was a 15000$ game and I did it because I was certain of it. | ||
fishjie
United States1519 Posts
Since Sirlin's Playing to Win has been linked a billion times already, here's an article by another super turbo OG player, s-kill, that's also relevant: http://shoryuken.com/f176/cheapness-221148/ | ||
kvn4444
1510 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
The bigger they are the harder they fall. Thorzain? | ||
Ramadanov
Bulgaria26 Posts
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
Sure most of us would want White-Ra to win, but he got outplayed badly in the last game by a "cheesy" strat that was a brilliant move by MC. I really feel sorry for MC. Sure he puts up his cocky act and a lot of people don't like that, but he is the most succesful SC2 player and probably the most skilled one as of now. Poor MC, he did not deserve such an reaction.. | ||
RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whether he's "playing to win." What matters is whether the competition is entertaining and engaging enough to warrant watching. Personally, I can't even be bothered to watch MC's games. I just click on the results and see whether he won or lost - his games are so boring, predictable and limited in scope that they completely suck all the fun out of watching them. So yes, they may not be "entertainers" by nature, but if they're consistently boring then nobody is going to want to watch them play. | ||
Southlight
United States11743 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:29 PanzerKing wrote: This is such a moot argument. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whether he's "playing to win." What matters is whether the competition is entertaining and engaging enough to warrant watching. Personally, I can't even be bothered to watch MC's games. I just click on the results and see whether he won or lost - his games are so boring, predictable and limited in scope that they completely suck all the fun out of watching them. So yes, they may not be "entertainers" by nature, but if they're consistently boring then nobody is going to want to watch them play. Yeah man it's such a shame he doesn't use the same build 5 games in a row and mass Colossus. So boring. | ||
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:42 Southlight wrote: Yeah man it's such a shame he doesn't use the same build 5 games in a row and mass Colossus. So boring. See, there's your problem right there. You don't even understand the nature of the criticism that I'm making. It's not JUST that he does the same builds over and over. It's not just that he masses a ton of gateway units every game. It's that he's shrunk the space of the game by essentially choosing to do a one-base or a two-base all-in every single game. That goes beyond army composition and opening build orders - MC has essentially cut out late-game macro, army control and late-game strategy completely out any Starcraft 2 game that he plays. All of those things are irrelevant when he plays. He doesn't have to practice them himself, and it doesn't matter how capable his opponent is at those things. The game will be won or lost when he makes his all-in attack, every single game. That's why he's so boring. You're not watching the full breadth of Starcraft gameplay and player skill, and you never will in an ogsMC game. You're watching a truncated, dumbed-down version of the game where most of the units don't exist, most of the higher strategic concepts are irrelevant or nonexistant, and half the skillset in the game is irrelevant. That's just boring to watch. I'd watch a Protoss like Incontrol over MC any day, any time. | ||
koreasilver
9109 Posts
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:14 PanzerKing wrote: See, there's your problem right there. You don't even understand the nature of the criticism that I'm making. It's not JUST that he does the same builds over and over. It's not just that he masses a ton of gateway units every game. It's that he's shrunk the space of the game by essentially choosing to do a one-base or a two-base all-in every single game. That goes beyond army composition and opening build orders - MC has essentially cut out late-game macro, army control and late-game strategy completely out any Starcraft 2 game that he plays. All of those things are irrelevant when he plays. He doesn't have to practice them himself, and it doesn't matter how capable his opponent is at those things. The game will be won or lost when he makes his all-in attack, every single game. That's why he's so boring. You're not watching the full breadth of Starcraft gameplay and player skill, and you never will in an ogsMC game. You're watching a truncated, dumbed-down version of the game where most of the units don't exist, most of the higher strategic concepts are irrelevant or nonexistant, and half the skillset in the game is irrelevant. That's just boring to watch. I'd watch a Protoss like Incontrol over MC any day, any time. I'm really, really bothered by this mentality. It's pretty much bullshit. Clearly, MC shouldn't take advantage of the difference between his and his opponent's micro and early game management, and instead play to the strengths of his opponent. Also, your statements are completely wrong, anyway. MC has proven himself capable of playing extended games, but only, only, only when his opponents don't succumb to his aggression early game. It's all-in in the sense that, yeah, sure, if it doesn't do damage, he'll lose. So is just about anything else in SC2. If he does only a decent amount of damage, the game continues. MC is not cutting probes so hard that he'll be put incredibly far behind. Yeah, it's kind of annoying when a game ends at 7 or 8 minutes in, sure. But the entire point of "safe" builds or even builds at all is to respond to every option. There's nothing wrong with preferring to watch Incontrol to MC, sure. But if you think MC is boring, I think you don't understand why his play is so spectacular. If his play was really as one-dimensional as you thought, he would've been "figured out" a long time ago. A good example is BitByBitPrime or Rain. But MC has incredible game sense, INCLUDING strategy for a BoX series. It's been said before, I think a lot by Chill, but to reiterate: macro games can't just exist, they come into existence because both players are inches away from completely destroying the other player, and stay that way for an extended period of time. On April 15 2011 05:27 koreasilver wrote: This thread is like the SC2 version of "Flash is a boring turtle I have no idea what I'm talking about". It's so true. | ||
boesthius
United States11637 Posts
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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ChrisXIV
Austria3553 Posts
On April 15 2011 06:03 Turgid wrote: MC loves warpgate-centric builds but he also helped re-popularize Void Ray and Phoenix openers against Terran and has definitely done 2base colossus in several games, not that that's particularly commendable. He also does blink and dts and always incorporates HTs late game, where they belong. No idea what he should be doing differently. Stop playing the game, duh (jk). As long as he keeps playing, people will hate on him. The one thing I will never understand about this whole cheese-debate is the fact that fanboys ignore that their favorite players employ the same strategies as the players they hate on. <sarcasm> White-Ra's 4-Gate variations were sooooooooooo great. His amazing micro with those...and the beautiful warp-in on the high-ground...soooo good. MC is such a noob. And MC strikes back. Noooooooo, don't 4-gate you skillless faggot, how dare you defeat White-Ra!!! Nooooo, Blink-Stalkers are so unfair, it's cheese, fucking korean, you think you're so smart. And how dare you exploit the glaring weakness of your opponent? That's sooooooo BM. You should tell him in the chat that he's vulnerable right now and that he should check his base. ... </sarcasm> >_< MC won. Because he made the right decision. Because he had the perfect plan. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
On April 15 2011 02:00 Kennigit wrote: Why don't you calm down and ask around if thats the real idra first? By the looks of the format of the "quote," it seems to be pulled off of Reddit, and I do know for a fact that there are no known real Idra accounts on Reddit. That EGIdra is just a fake novelty account. | ||
tehplank
977 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:14 PanzerKing wrote: See, there's your problem right there. You don't even understand the nature of the criticism that I'm making. It's not JUST that he does the same builds over and over. It's not just that he masses a ton of gateway units every game. It's that he's shrunk the space of the game by essentially choosing to do a one-base or a two-base all-in every single game. That goes beyond army composition and opening build orders - MC has essentially cut out late-game macro, army control and late-game strategy completely out any Starcraft 2 game that he plays. All of those things are irrelevant when he plays. He doesn't have to practice them himself, and it doesn't matter how capable his opponent is at those things. The game will be won or lost when he makes his all-in attack, every single game. That's why he's so boring. You're not watching the full breadth of Starcraft gameplay and player skill, and you never will in an ogsMC game. You're watching a truncated, dumbed-down version of the game where most of the units don't exist, most of the higher strategic concepts are irrelevant or nonexistant, and half the skillset in the game is irrelevant. That's just boring to watch. I'd watch a Protoss like Incontrol over MC any day, any time. MC is perfectly capable of playing macro games. It's not his fault if his opponent immediately succumbs to his initial harassment. | ||
jpak
United States5045 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:14 PanzerKing wrote: See, there's your problem right there. You don't even understand the nature of the criticism that I'm making. It's not JUST that he does the same builds over and over. It's not just that he masses a ton of gateway units every game. It's that he's shrunk the space of the game by essentially choosing to do a one-base or a two-base all-in every single game. That goes beyond army composition and opening build orders - MC has essentially cut out late-game macro, army control and late-game strategy completely out any Starcraft 2 game that he plays. All of those things are irrelevant when he plays. He doesn't have to practice them himself, and it doesn't matter how capable his opponent is at those things. The game will be won or lost when he makes his all-in attack, every single game. That's why he's so boring. You're not watching the full breadth of Starcraft gameplay and player skill, and you never will in an ogsMC game. You're watching a truncated, dumbed-down version of the game where most of the units don't exist, most of the higher strategic concepts are irrelevant or nonexistant, and half the skillset in the game is irrelevant. That's just boring to watch. I'd watch a Protoss like Incontrol over MC any day, any time. Let me say this Herman Edwards quote again: YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME! If one/two base all ins are so powerful that MC has to use them to win most consistently, then it's the game's fault, not his. Either players will adapt to that style and force a late game, or, if they can't for months, it will be patches in some way. | ||
AyeH
United States534 Posts
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SirJolt
the Dagon Knight3990 Posts
Maybe just me, but I'm an edge-of-my-seat cheese viewer. | ||
Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
Also us dudes that have been here for a few years understand why boes is mad, it's because of the name calling. If people were only civilized with their criticism then they shouldn't have been banned. You nerds should watch WWE (like what he said) for mindless fun of epic proportions if you think MC isn't a thinking man. | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Considering that fact plus the fact that he wins a tournament every other week now, I don't think he really cares how people judge his playstyle. | ||
AyeH
United States534 Posts
On April 15 2011 10:23 Rekrul wrote: I drank with MC a few days before he went to DH and I must say, his new GF is really fkin hot. Considering that fact plus the fact that he wins a tournament every other week now, I don't think he really cares how people judge his playstyle. pics?! i like players who win (without cheating) and don't care about what the audience thinks. god, i wish i had his forcefield skills.. | ||
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:50 boesthius wrote: You do realize that he went a different build in every single game of his in the finals, right? Did you even watch the finals? Probably not, since you already have this assuming disposition. Again, you're talking about builds, which completely misses my point. The fact is, he does a one-base or two-base all-in, every single game. He might make one gateway 10 seconds faster in one game, or build a robo and 3 gates instead of a 4-gate in another, but the end result is always the same - it's like watching Goundhog Day. His entire playstyle truncates the game and shrinks it down to a handful of specific decisions and micro contests. It reduces the scope of the game to something fundamentally less complex, less interesting and ultimately, less exciting to watch for many people. People who care about large army control, late-game macro and late-game composition and strategic decision-making have absolutely no reason to watch any game MC plays, ever, because he'll either win or lose long before any of those skills become relevant. PvP is already pretty fucked to begin with, but you notice it most in his PvZ and PvT. And no, I didn't watch the finals, but I don't really have to, because I guessed how they went, looked up the results thread, and I was exactly right, just like I've been right about every series MC has played for as long as I can remember. | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On April 15 2011 10:50 PanzerKing wrote: Again, you're talking about builds, which completely misses my point. The fact is, he does a one-base or two-base all-in, every single game. He might make one gateway 10 seconds faster in one game, or build a robo and 3 gates instead of a 4-gate in another, but the end result is always the same - it's like watching Goundhog Day. His entire playstyle truncates the game and shrinks it down to a handful of specific decisions and micro contests. It reduces the scope of the game to something fundamentally less complex, less interesting and ultimately, less exciting to watch for many people. People who care about large army control, late-game macro and late-game composition and strategic decision-making have absolutely no reason to watch any game MC plays, ever, because he'll either win or lose long before any of those skills become relevant. PvP is already pretty fucked to begin with, but you notice it most in his PvZ and PvT. And no, I didn't watch the finals, but I don't really have to, because I guessed how they went, looked up the results thread, and I was exactly right, just like I've been right about every series MC has played for as long as I can remember. In that case blame Blizzard not MC. | ||
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
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rei
United States3593 Posts
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Trakz
Canada178 Posts
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rei
United States3593 Posts
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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Southlight
United States11743 Posts
On April 15 2011 10:58 PanzerKing wrote: You're probably right, and it is Blizzard's fault if MC's style is simply the most effective. That said, I don't particularly care about fault - I just don't want to watch him play because it's boring. It's more of a factual statement than blaming him for being a "cheesy faggot", or whatever people are accusing MC of being. 2009-2010: Everyone hates Flash because he plays boring despite revolutionizing basically every TvX matchup and performing incredible feats of Starcraft, all the while setting records and separating himself from the holy triumvirate. 2011: Everyone hates MC because he plays boring despite trying new shit all the time, rarely performing the same build order twice (in a row), creating a "love it or hate it I generate excitement" persona and stomping everyone. The torch has been passed. | ||
sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
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Dknight
United States5223 Posts
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On April 15 2011 23:11 Southlight wrote: 2009-2010: Everyone hates Flash because he plays boring despite revolutionizing basically every TvX matchup and performing incredible feats of Starcraft, all the while setting records and separating himself from the holy triumvirate. 2011: Everyone hates MC because he plays boring despite trying new shit all the time, rarely performing the same build order twice (in a row), creating a "love it or hate it I generate excitement" persona and stomping everyone. The torch has been passed. Guess SC2 indeed turned out to be beneficial to BW after all! ... + Show Spoiler + I always wanted to say this after whole MC debacle broke out. Thanks for providing the opportunity. | ||
docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:45 Turgid wrote: I dunno if this is how anyone else feels, but I think that White-ra is a very greedy player in PVP on average, even ignoring the 13 gate and skipped zealot. All the things that are used to punish greedy strategies inevitably look like risky bullshit or cheese :/ I kinda feel this way too, where everything that punishes greedy play is seen as bullshit somehow. I think the community needs to accept pressure builds the way they are and not make value judgements on them. | ||
KiddoKanin
11 Posts
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On April 23 2012 23:59 docvoc wrote: I kinda feel this way too, where everything that punishes greedy play is seen as bullshit somehow. I think the community needs to accept pressure builds the way they are and not make value judgements on them. I read this thread. Then I got to the end and saw it was a year old. Then I got to you and didn't know if you realized this is a year old thread. Then I reread the OP and thought about it's current relevance still and decided I don't care if it's a year old. Hm. | ||
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