Social anxiety disorder, also called social phobia, is an anxiety disorder in which a person has an excessive and unreasonable fear of social situations. Anxiety (intense nervousness) and self-consciousness arise from a fear of being closely watched, judged, and criticized by others.
A person with social anxiety disorder is afraid that he or she will make mistakes, look bad, and be embarrassed or humiliated in front of others. The fear may be made worse by a lack of social skills or experience in social situations. The anxiety can build into a panic attack. As a result of the fear, the person endures certain social situations in extreme distress or may avoid them altogether. In addition, people with social anxiety disorder often suffer "anticipatory" anxiety -- the fear of a situation before it even happens -- for days or weeks before the event. In many cases, the person is aware that the fear is unreasonable, yet is unable to overcome it.
People with social anxiety disorder suffer from distorted thinking, including false beliefs about social situations and the negative opinions of others. Without treatment, social anxiety disorder can negatively interfere with the person's normal daily routine, including school, work, social activities, and relationships.
People with social anxiety disorder may be afraid of a specific situation, such as speaking in public. However, most people with social anxiety disorder fear more than one social situation. Other situations that commonly provoke anxiety include:
Eating or drinking in front of others. Writing or working in front of others. Being the center of attention. Interacting with people, including dating or going to parties. Asking questions or giving reports in groups. Using public toilets. Talking on the telephone. Social anxiety disorder may be linked to other mental illnesses, such as panic disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, and depression. In fact, many people with social anxiety disorder initially see the doctor with complaints related to these disorders, not because of social anxiety symptoms.
First I want to made clear that this isn't some made up mental disorder to sell pills to people who are shy. This a extremely problematic disease that usually takes over your life and prevents you from doing and experiencing some of the most basic aspects of life.
In some people it's caused by some traumatic experience, in my case I believe it's genetic in some way, since I seem to have suffered from it ever sincer I was very, very little.
I'm 22 years old and I've never had sex, not even kissed a girl (initially this was due to my extreme social awkardness, in recent years it's related more to my inhability to experience romantic feelings due to how fucked up my mind is), never really had friends, maybe some acquaintances when I was in high school. There where periods of my life where I barely left the house for weeks given how stressful doing so would be, I graduated from high school 7 years ago and I'm barely half way to finishing college due to dropping out several times due to my constant anxiety.
And while the social anxiety is a big problem by itself, the real life breaker comes with the associated disorders. When you live all your life in a constant state of anxiety and fear you mental health is bound to suffer... A lot. Over the years I developed a severe chronic depression (mostly overcomed by now), avoidant personality disorder (the bane of my existence), hypochondria (I hate this one so much) and some other more minor things.
The other big issue with SA is the fact that it robs you of any support system... When faced with any problem of life most people will be able to rely on their social circles, friends, their significant other, whether those circles are big, small, positive or not so positive, they provide the fundations for the human mind to persevere in times of adversity.
With SA you don't have any social circles nor significant other, this hurts your emotional and mental well being and stability far more than I can explain. It's like having some sort of mental AIDS, where you're left defenceless against any mental "infection" that may come and even the slightest challenges become huge and traumatic problems.
A couple of years ago I hit rock bottom, suffering 3 horrible panic attacks, the last one actually landed me in the ER give how what I felt was so horrible and unexplainable that I actually tought I was dying. I ended up looking for psychological help which actually helped me to improve, but there was a limit to what therapy can do... The only two paths left for where to take some anxiety drugs and risk becoming dependant or just try to overcome this awful thing by sheer will and hard work. I choose the second.
Now I'm living by myself and of course going to school, I have improved a lot in the past couple of years but I'm still very far from ever being "cured", I can act almost like a "normal" person in my daily life, but the anxiety just doesn't go away... I might choose to face it, to man up and deal with the many things that stress me out, but that doesn't mean I doesn't experience the constant anxiety, and a life of that has tired me both phisically and mentally far more than I can explain.
Thanks to anyone who bothered to read this wall of text, and remember the next time you meet someone who seems extremely awkward or shy... He or she may just be a very ill person.
starting at the gym / TLHeath&Fitness thread helped me a lot ... you slowly learn discipline and very slowly start to achieve something that is natural and that you respect in yourself, which automatically lends to self confidence.
you can forget about women , when their affinity for you in general is based on how self-confident you are then its a hopeless and unsympathetic cycle of disappointment for both parties
i hope you dont drink, because it will literally kill you , it fucks with your nervous system so bad after a while
try to get 11 hours of sleeping period , with all the electric plugs off (total darkness+silence) , it seems to make a big difference compared to sleeping with the computer on/tiny bit of light. waking up refreshed and forgetting the previous day of emotional upheaval is powerful
I suffer from this as well, to the point where as mentioned in the quote I also suffer from some symptoms of OCD the thing that really has helped me deal with it is the fact that when I got hired for my new job the forced my to be on the cash register...meaning I have had to talk to and deal with every customer...it was almost impossible for the first few weeks but slowly I am getting used to it. I still have issues almost everywhere else I go but at work I can act almost normal
Really interesting, i recognize alot of the situations from the quote :/ Last years I've been always told by doctors that it's autism, but your post really describes alot of things i recognize.
On March 23 2012 00:26 SpadeAce wrote: Really interesting, i recognize alot of the situations from the quote :/ Last years I've been always told by doctors that it's autism, but your post really describes alot of things i recognize.
Social phobia or anxiety is very common with people who have autism. You can have both ^^.
I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
Wow, that's really tough OP. I sympathize with your situation, since although I don't have social anxiety, I am quite introverted and I actually have one of the points listed above: the fear of talking with strangers on the telephone. I don't know what it is, and if anyone else has it, but I HATE dealing with people on the phone. I find it hard to understand people when they talk through the phone so I end up saying 'what?' a lot and I'm always afraid I'm making the guy on the other end angry and that I'm making a fool of myself.
In any case, I really enjoy spending time alone, more so than most of my friends that require constant peer support to stay sane. In fact, I sometimes enjoy being alone and just thinking more than being out with friends. The point of this, OP, is that don't let this anxiety be a crutch in your life. Strive to take advantage of it and make it help you somehow. For example, a job which requires you to work alone you would excel at, since you have a lot more experience on your own than most people, and so your work ethic on your own is probably a lot better than the average Joe.
Good luck, I hope you end up conquering your social anxiety and/or make it work for you in the end!
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
I don't think anyone is comparing them to actual diseases. Neither does anyone know for sure if it's a recent development of human beings or that we're only just discovering it.
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
It has nothing do with self imposement, I can tell you that. I feel serious fear for a shit ton of things, and there's nothing I can do about it even though I don't agree with any of my fears they're all very irrational. It's a bit like falling on the street when your knee aches for a couple of hours. But then it's like a fear aching feeling, you just have to live with it.
I've been through the same situation(panic attacks, suicide tendencies,etc), maybe not as much as you but still, im also from SA, however i can heavily rely on my closest family. Theres nothing you can do but believe in yourself, you've chosen the right path, keep it up man!
I tell myself all the time that everyone is just an imagination of my brain and they don't really exist, which means I can interact with people the way I want to.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
ruXxar : its disease-like because its something you get stuck in , it re-enforces itself , like the "bad chemicals" reproduce themselves and block the "good chemicals" in a constant effect . or you can just think of it as "trauma" . if you've ever been traumatised, like you're afraid of spiders or something, you know how innate that is. if you had a really bad relationship then you could say it traumatised you and now you're psychologically fucked up. disease in the dictionary is not a clearly defined word anyway, it just means "somethings wrong"
On March 23 2012 00:49 Sayle wrote: How do you distinguish between someone who is really shy and someone who has this disorder?
id say the difference is that a "shy" person isnt really bothered by their shyness as such. like a cute "shy" girl might not find any problem with her "shyness". social anxiety is defined by its anxiety, and anxiety is hard to describe - its easier to describe the symptoms eg inability to "be yourself" , relax , concentrate, butterflies in stomach, tenseness, stress, self doubt, doubt about everything, overthinking everything, being unsure of everything, lack of confidence, low ego, racing thoughts, fear without cause, self-loathing, whatever
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
Firstly, stop being an ignorant twat. I grew up with 5 siblings and my family had a lot of contact with farther relatives as well and I had a lot of friends as a child and I developed these problems anyway. It isn't about "training" or so.
Secondly, why do this matter? A disease can mean anything which significantly impairs functioning in some way. Also things like cancer are very dependent on how you live and I believe that you would accept it as a disease, just because there are lifestyle factors doesn't meant that it isn't a disease.
It is extremely hard to change yourself mentally. As an example imagine the thing in the world which you hate and loathe the most. Like a person, some cult, a movement, a game, some food or some music. Now try to go from loathing it to loving it, right now before you start reading the next sentence. Can you do it? Probably not. Why? You really gain nothing from loathing and hating things like that. Imagine now that you loathe and hate peoples attention that much. Every time you go out and every time you meet someone you feel it. Wouldn't that be a hell way worse than anything you ever have experienced?
Psychology isn't trivial, don't ever be ignorant about it again please.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
it can develop in any infinite number of ways. you can see it clearly in the animal kingdom. monkeys/whatever that are outcast from their tribe because other monkeys dont like them for whatever reason. then they get depressed, refuse to eat, blah blah, have to be moved to their own cage, its a sad story. you can call it a disorder if you want. like i said, the word "disease" doesnt actually mean anything specific anyway...... the brain is the brain, if there are fucked up wires then there will be problems, it doesnt matter how deep or shallow you care to look at it; the problems are there
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
Firstly, stop being an ignorant twat. I grew up with 5 siblings and my family had a lot of contact with farther relatives as well and I had a lot of friends as a child and I developed these problems anyway. It isn't about "training" or so.
Secondly, why do this matter? A disease can mean anything which significantly impairs functioning in some way. Also things like cancer are very dependent on how you live and I believe that you would accept it as a disease, just because there are lifestyle factors doesn't meant that it isn't a disease.
It is extremely hard to change yourself mentally. As an example imagine the thing in the world which you hate and loathe the most. Like a person, some cult, a movement, a game, some food or some music. Now try to go from loathing it to loving it, right now before you start reading the next sentence. Can you do it? Probably not. Why? You really gain nothing from loathing and hating things like that. Imagine now that you loathe and hate peoples attention that much. Every time you go out and every time you meet someone you feel it. Wouldn't that be a hell way worse than anything you ever have experienced?
Psychology isn't trivial, don't ever be ignorant about it again please.
I'm not trying to downplay the severity of it. I'm trying to understand how it makes sense.
The way I see it, most of these anxieties are related to thoughts and emotions. I believe that thoughts are something we humans can partially control. If you get conditioned into one of these anxieties, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to condition yourself out of them as well?
Or are you trying to tell me that you've had social anxieties as long as you can remember? If not, how did it develop in you?
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
Oh god! I remember being on Effexor Difficult enough to get it up (keep it up either), nearly impossible to get off. The idea of long-lasting sex is neat until you realize that it really is never-ending; shitsux
On March 23 2012 01:23 FFGenerations wrote: ruXxar : its disease-like because its something you get stuck in , it re-enforces itself , like the "bad chemicals" reproduce themselves and block the "good chemicals" in a constant effect . or you can just think of it as "trauma" . if you've ever been traumatised, like you're afraid of spiders or something, you know how innate that is. if you had a really bad relationship then you could say it traumatised you and now you're psychologically fucked up. disease in the dictionary is not a clearly defined word anyway, it just means "somethings wrong"
On March 23 2012 00:49 Sayle wrote: How do you distinguish between someone who is really shy and someone who has this disorder?
id say the difference is that a "shy" person isnt really bothered by their shyness as such. like a cute "shy" girl might not find any problem with her "shyness". social anxiety is defined by its anxiety, and anxiety is hard to describe - its easier to describe the symptoms eg inability to "be yourself" , relax , concentrate, butterflies in stomach, tenseness, stress, self doubt, doubt about everything, overthinking everything, being unsure of everything, lack of confidence, low ego, racing thoughts, fear without cause, self-loathing, whatever
On traumas : that exactly is my point. You had an experience which led to yourself being condition a certain way. The time span can differ for different incidents, but in the end it was an experience that led to a person developing that way.
I would say the same applies for anxieties. Some sort of experience, whether over a short or longer timespan led to the person developing that anxiety.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
it can develop in any infinite number of ways. you can see it clearly in the animal kingdom. monkeys/whatever that are outcast from their tribe because other monkeys dont like them for whatever reason. then they get depressed, refuse to eat, blah blah, have to be moved to their own cage, its a sad story. you can call it a disorder if you want. like i said, the word "disease" doesnt actually mean anything specific anyway...... the brain is the brain, if there are fucked up wires then there will be problems, it doesnt matter how deep or shallow you care to look at it; the problems are there
Right, but if your emotions can be "wired" to a "bad" way. Certainly they could be "wired" back to a "good" way?
And humans are not animals, if we get cast out from our friend circle it doesn't mean we have to live without friends for the rest of our lives. We have new opportunities, if we're willing to take them.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
it can develop in any infinite number of ways. you can see it clearly in the animal kingdom. monkeys/whatever that are outcast from their tribe because other monkeys dont like them for whatever reason. then they get depressed, refuse to eat, blah blah, have to be moved to their own cage, its a sad story. you can call it a disorder if you want. like i said, the word "disease" doesnt actually mean anything specific anyway...... the brain is the brain, if there are fucked up wires then there will be problems, it doesnt matter how deep or shallow you care to look at it; the problems are there
Right, but if your emotions can be "wired" to a "bad" way. Certainly they could be "wired" back to a "good" way?
That's generally the goal of therapy ;p However it's not so "certain," unfortunately, and you can't turn every stone back to its proper place in your brain either.
To target a specific point:
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
The difference between it happening in one instance (the former) and both instances is the presence of an actual cognitive issue: that is the difference between being a "shy" person and having "social anxiety." The environment definitely has a major role in whether or not/how a disorder is uncovered or how severe it will be, but it won't be the only cause of the problem.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
Firstly, stop being an ignorant twat. I grew up with 5 siblings and my family had a lot of contact with farther relatives as well and I had a lot of friends as a child and I developed these problems anyway. It isn't about "training" or so.
Secondly, why do this matter? A disease can mean anything which significantly impairs functioning in some way. Also things like cancer are very dependent on how you live and I believe that you would accept it as a disease, just because there are lifestyle factors doesn't meant that it isn't a disease.
It is extremely hard to change yourself mentally. As an example imagine the thing in the world which you hate and loathe the most. Like a person, some cult, a movement, a game, some food or some music. Now try to go from loathing it to loving it, right now before you start reading the next sentence. Can you do it? Probably not. Why? You really gain nothing from loathing and hating things like that. Imagine now that you loathe and hate peoples attention that much. Every time you go out and every time you meet someone you feel it. Wouldn't that be a hell way worse than anything you ever have experienced?
Psychology isn't trivial, don't ever be ignorant about it again please.
I'm not trying to downplay the severity of it. I'm trying to understand how it makes sense.
The way I see it, most of these anxieties are related to thoughts and emotions. I believe that thoughts are something we humans can partially control. If you get conditioned into one of these anxieties, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to condition yourself out of them as well?
Or are you trying to tell me that you've had social anxieties as long as you can remember? If not, how did it develop in you?
I know that you can control it, but it ain't that simple. Did you try my thought experiment? Think of something which you feel that you are justified to hate. Then try to love it. That is all but impossible. The point is that you actually believe that people actually are disgusted by and hates you, so feeling shame and guilt when you are near them is justified.
I am not exactly sure how it developed, I remember that I suddenly started thinking that everyone loathes being with me and that I am an evil person for wanting to be with them when all I do is spreading suffering and unhappiness. That was 14 years ago. My childhood wasn't unproblematic but looking back I don't really see what would have caused all of this, I didn't have any problems at all when I was 8. Anyway, I am much better now than what I have been before. But still I need extreme mental discipline or I fall back thinking that it is impossible to like me, that those who know me don't like me and that they will soon stop anyway. That it is better to not like others since it just hurts them being liked by someone they hate etc. That is my default way of thinking about everyone and that is where my mind naturally goes when I don't actively keeps it where it is rational to have it. Thus I am very unstable and every time I lose it I need to work it back, takes a few weeks or so.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
it can develop in any infinite number of ways. you can see it clearly in the animal kingdom. monkeys/whatever that are outcast from their tribe because other monkeys dont like them for whatever reason. then they get depressed, refuse to eat, blah blah, have to be moved to their own cage, its a sad story. you can call it a disorder if you want. like i said, the word "disease" doesnt actually mean anything specific anyway...... the brain is the brain, if there are fucked up wires then there will be problems, it doesnt matter how deep or shallow you care to look at it; the problems are there
Right, but if your emotions can be "wired" to a "bad" way. Certainly they could be "wired" back to a "good" way?
And humans are not animals, if we get cast out from our friend circle it doesn't mean we have to live without friends for the rest of our lives. We have new opportunities, if we're willing to take them.
The social isolation, anticipatory anxiety, panic attacks, depressions and manias even. They're like super annoying bees coming in overwhelming numbers at times and maybe we can't do anything about them but to challenge them and lose over and over again.
Luckily there's always something to keep you going. I guess this is something we all have in common. Whether we are pitiful or in a disadvantage compared to most of the population I dare not guess, and I don't find that important either. Focus on yourself and stay strong, keep fighting! When you feel like you're hitting the bottom and you can't hold onto your non-existing friends, think of all the people in the same situation you're in. That's all I've figured so far. GL HF
Hey OP, I'm in the same boat as you. I've lived alone while going through college also, and I just couldn't take that. Literally one of the most miserable periods of my life. So I decided to move back into the college housing and luckily I got some nerdy gamer roommates. I'm still nowhere on the girlfriend front, but at least I have some friends.
My point is that you shouldn't live by yourself because that leads to nothing but isolation. Though of course I don't know your full situation.
Anyways, nice blog. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the world with as much anxiety as I have so it's nice to know there are others with the same struggles
A lot of your questions should be easily answered if you bothered to read up on some basic psychology, like why all these disorders started popping up in the latest century. (The science itself is barely over a century old FYI) And if you are looking for 100% accurate answers you are in the wrong field. There are no exact answers in psychology, the brain is too complex for that, and there are usually several factors contributing to a disorder, and people will discuss and argue whatever is most important etc. And disregarding accepted science like you do can be viewed as disrespectful to people who are actually sick. You wouldn't go to a cancer patient and tell him you didn't believe in cancer would you?
Reading OP's post kinda feels like reading about myself, except not that bad(yet). I have few people that I talk to(from childhood, because can't make any new friends), and even that happens rarely. Only place where I can somewhat express myself is here on TL, and that's because no one know who I am and that reduces the pressure(a bit) of what being social causes(if writing on forums can be called socializing). Recently there was group worked assigned at school, I went to the appointed table and froze completely: I didn't say a word, started to sweat out of control and my mind raced with stupid, irrational thoughts... I'm not sure if I actually have an illness as self-diagnosis is not recommended(afaik). Maybe I should go see a doctor...
OP, you're doing better than the majority, good luck!
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
Firstly, stop being an ignorant twat. I grew up with 5 siblings and my family had a lot of contact with farther relatives as well and I had a lot of friends as a child and I developed these problems anyway. It isn't about "training" or so.
Secondly, why do this matter? A disease can mean anything which significantly impairs functioning in some way. Also things like cancer are very dependent on how you live and I believe that you would accept it as a disease, just because there are lifestyle factors doesn't meant that it isn't a disease.
It is extremely hard to change yourself mentally. As an example imagine the thing in the world which you hate and loathe the most. Like a person, some cult, a movement, a game, some food or some music. Now try to go from loathing it to loving it, right now before you start reading the next sentence. Can you do it? Probably not. Why? You really gain nothing from loathing and hating things like that. Imagine now that you loathe and hate peoples attention that much. Every time you go out and every time you meet someone you feel it. Wouldn't that be a hell way worse than anything you ever have experienced?
Psychology isn't trivial, don't ever be ignorant about it again please.
I'm not trying to downplay the severity of it. I'm trying to understand how it makes sense.
The way I see it, most of these anxieties are related to thoughts and emotions. I believe that thoughts are something we humans can partially control. If you get conditioned into one of these anxieties, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to condition yourself out of them as well?
Or are you trying to tell me that you've had social anxieties as long as you can remember? If not, how did it develop in you?
I know that you can control it, but it ain't that simple. Did you try my thought experiment? Think of something which you feel that you are justified to hate. Then try to love it. That is all but impossible. The point is that you actually believe that people actually are disgusted by and hates you, so feeling shame and guilt when you are near them is justified.
I am not exactly sure how it developed, I remember that I suddenly started thinking that everyone loathes being with me and that I am an evil person for wanting to be with them when all I do is spreading suffering and unhappiness. That was 14 years ago. My childhood wasn't unproblematic but looking back I don't really see what would have caused all of this, I didn't have any problems at all when I was 8. Anyway, I am much better now than what I have been before. But still I need extreme mental discipline or I fall back thinking that it is impossible to like me, that those who know me don't like me and that they will soon stop anyway. That it is better to not like others since it just hurts them being liked by someone they hate etc. That is my default way of thinking about everyone and that is where my mind naturally goes when I don't actively keeps it where it is rational to have it.
Pretty much exactly my situation too(I won't say this is me suffering from a mental disease for ME atleast, I just see it as EXTREMELY bad self confidence), although going to the gym and actively giving myself comments and re-assessing/confiriming that I'm good(inner dialogue type stuff), that I'm worth something to others etc has helped alot.
I'm a pretty logical person so in my inner dialogue(wtever you call it) I usually compare myself objectively to other stuff(which actually is ILLOGICAL if you think about doing something in an objective manner where subjectivity is a big factor(personality etc)).
Like if I'm going to the gym and I can actually look at myself in the mirror and see that I'm becoming more muscular as a result of it. Then I can accept that I am starting to look good.
This is of course in my mind only true, if the social norm(majority obviously != fact but when it comes to stuff such as "looking good" etc it pretty much is, unless you're a total baller with awesome self confidence that makes weird shit work) is that looking good is through being fit. And that gives me a reason to start liking my own body right, like sort of an objective way of measuring it. "Because of this, this and this, I can now see myself in a positive light, not just because I have some "belief" that I look good, I actually have it on paper that yes I look good because of this fact".
Alot of this shit just came through watching alot of PUA material and coming to a pretty cliché epiphany. I'm not following the PUA stuff by the book or even religiously following it but it gave me some perspective. And my inner dialogue basically went like this after awhile.
"Hey this is your fucking life, are you going to live it shittily or are you actually going to work on yourself and become awesome? Because you deserve to have a good life and do whatever you want and other people deserve to see that you are awesome. There's no reason for you to mope around, so fucking dig in. Do the hard work that is needed to develop yourself. So I'm going to start looking good, become an awesome person(I probably already am) but I need to develop my social skills enough to be able to show it to others."
This sounds alittle arrogant at some places but it really isn't, the worst thing you can do when working on self-improvement is NOT acknowledging your own shortcomings. It's when you really start doing that that you're starting to become arrogant.
So I'm just generally always thinking positively, and I genuinely am a really positive fucking super happy guy, but my severe lack of confidence stops me from showing that so I'm gonna work on it. And jesus christ, the whole stepping out of your comfort zone is fucking INTENSE. Like it's SERIOUSLY fucking hard to do it, but I know that that's what's necessary in order for me to progress. So my mindset changed to no matter what situation occurs that I usually would just avoid at all costs, I now try to embrace instead and just do that shit in an as confident way as possible and if I didn't succeed then I know that that helped me develop more than not having done it.
And like you said klockan3, it takes extreme mental discipline to be self confident(I'm paraphrasing abit to make it fit in with what I'm talking about lol, sorry).
It's so fucking EASY to rationalize things towards a negative conclusion when you're coming from a place of extremely bad self concidence. I like to shittily and uninformatively compare it to electricity and how it works, electricity is lazy and always takes the shortest possible route to get to where it's getting lead to.
And negativity is just that, it's fucking lazy thinking that OBVIOUSLY that hot chick on the train was looking at you for all the wrong reasons. NO, fuck that. She was looking at you because you are a handsome motherfucker and she's lucky to even be looking at you and even being in the vicinity of you.
I'm obviously exaggerating a bit but this is what you kind of gotta do, just take the positivity to an extreme(internally, and externally as much as possible without making it seem weird and out of place obviously:D) and it'll eventually manifest itself, and so will your confidence and social skills and ability to work in social settings as well.
I'm not sure what the point of this post is and why I typed it in such a lectural(even a word?) manner, I don't really feel like I have any merit in "teaching" anyone this. It wasn't even really on topic, but I'm just feeling generally awesome these days and I hope someone can find something useful in some of my insight on how I managed to become more positive.(I have like three laps around the globe left in terms of getting to where I want to be in my life. So it's not like I'm some fucking complete and perfect human being glowing with personality and confidence and having my perfect life, but I'm on my way and it feels good!)
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
Firstly, stop being an ignorant twat. I grew up with 5 siblings and my family had a lot of contact with farther relatives as well and I had a lot of friends as a child and I developed these problems anyway. It isn't about "training" or so.
Secondly, why do this matter? A disease can mean anything which significantly impairs functioning in some way. Also things like cancer are very dependent on how you live and I believe that you would accept it as a disease, just because there are lifestyle factors doesn't meant that it isn't a disease.
It is extremely hard to change yourself mentally. As an example imagine the thing in the world which you hate and loathe the most. Like a person, some cult, a movement, a game, some food or some music. Now try to go from loathing it to loving it, right now before you start reading the next sentence. Can you do it? Probably not. Why? You really gain nothing from loathing and hating things like that. Imagine now that you loathe and hate peoples attention that much. Every time you go out and every time you meet someone you feel it. Wouldn't that be a hell way worse than anything you ever have experienced?
Psychology isn't trivial, don't ever be ignorant about it again please.
I'm not trying to downplay the severity of it. I'm trying to understand how it makes sense.
The way I see it, most of these anxieties are related to thoughts and emotions. I believe that thoughts are something we humans can partially control. If you get conditioned into one of these anxieties, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to condition yourself out of them as well?
Or are you trying to tell me that you've had social anxieties as long as you can remember? If not, how did it develop in you?
I know that you can control it, but it ain't that simple. Did you try my thought experiment? Think of something which you feel that you are justified to hate. Then try to love it. That is all but impossible. The point is that you actually believe that people actually are disgusted by and hates you, so feeling shame and guilt when you are near them is justified.
I am not exactly sure how it developed, I remember that I suddenly started thinking that everyone loathes being with me and that I am an evil person for wanting to be with them when all I do is spreading suffering and unhappiness. That was 14 years ago. My childhood wasn't unproblematic but looking back I don't really see what would have caused all of this, I didn't have any problems at all when I was 8. Anyway, I am much better now than what I have been before. But still I need extreme mental discipline or I fall back thinking that it is impossible to like me, that those who know me don't like me and that they will soon stop anyway. That it is better to not like others since it just hurts them being liked by someone they hate etc. That is my default way of thinking about everyone and that is where my mind naturally goes when I don't actively keeps it where it is rational to have it. Thus I am very unstable and every time I lose it I need to work it back, takes a few weeks or so.
The difference here is that when I hate or fear something, there's a logical reason as to why I do that.
Example : I have a fear of bees. The reason why I fear bees is because i've been stung several times, and it hurts a lot. I developed the condition that I should avoid bees.
If I try to tell myself that I love bees, that would be a lie, because I know that bees have a tendency to sting(from experience).
Taking the same example to a social setting it would be like : "I'm afraid of being social because from experience most people are negative towards me". Or : studies have shown that statistically 90% of people are negative towards each other in a social setting.
Then I could understand the anxiety of a social setting.
What I don't understand is how you can have anxiety for something based on claims which have no factual evidence. And I don't believe such an anxiety would develop in a person that grows up in a very social community where he himself is social.
Or is someone who is social with friends etc, one day going to wake up and think that everyone hates him? Why would he even start to think that without some kind of experience to lead him in that direction?. I don't see any possibility of such a thought emerging in such a person.
EDIT :
Just to give some background info on my self :
I am very shy and do not feel comfortable in large social events. I often hesitate to speak up and have low self confidence. I realize that the reason for this is that when I was young I got addicted to computer games and distanced myself more and more from people.
I do not consider myself to have a social anxiety because of that. I know that to be more social I just need to condition myself in a social environment.
This is a very honest and eye opening blog. Just a shot in dark: have you considered taking acting classes? Maybe that can help you cope with social situations a little bit better -- even if it's only a superficial solution.
On March 23 2012 00:50 Shai wrote: I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Panic Disorder (I'm somewhere in the middle) but I can understand a lot of what you're going through. Definitely don't drink much or do any serious drugs.
The biggest thing for me has been finding a balance between getting enough time alone and spending enough time with other people. If you only spend time with other people it will trigger your anxiety, but if you spend time only by yourself your episodes will get worse.
Oh and don't let your doctor give you Effexxor if you plan on being in a relationship. It's a common anti-depressant/anxietant which works ok, but it has ... weird side effects for some people. I, and many other people who have taken the drug, was always turned on but could never reach climax on the drug. That might sound like it makes you a Viking in the sack, but never getting sexual gratification wears thin pretty quickly.
On March 23 2012 00:45 ruXxar wrote: I don't understand all the people that have these anxieties and phobias and whatnot. Is this something that have developed among humans in the last century?
I'm not talking about people with real diseases that you can pinpoint to a physiological damage in the brain or an infection in the body. I'm talking about these mental disorders that people have. Can they be linked to anything concrete? Or are they simply a result of not having the necessary experience amongst crowds, in a group and being conditioned over the years to have a low self confidence?
I can't believe that there's any physiological reason as to why a person would have such a condition, and must then conclude that it's due to how the person has been interacting with his environment while growing up, be it self imposed, or imposed by others.
I just don't see how this can be labeled as a disease.
There is a genetic component to it - I have mental illness in my family spread both outwards and upwards. It is also physically measurable as a chemical imbalance in the brain. Mental illness has existed for ever, but pre-modern society just let those who were afflicted go without help so that they would eventually go hungry from lack of work or support. A similar comparison is that we used to call all people with any cognitive disabilities Mentally Retarded, but now we know there are many different reasons for doing poorly at school, including mental illnesses (depression and anxiety), Autism, dislexia, Downs Syndrome, and yes, low IQ (mental retardation).
The point i was trying to make is that a person with downs syndrome is going to have downs syndrome whether he lives alone on an island or with a family of 5 and a huge friend circle around him.
I'm not convinced that a person would develop social anxiety in the latter case, but can understand a person developing it in the first.
What I'm getting at is that social anxiety is formed by the the environment you grow up in.
Firstly, stop being an ignorant twat. I grew up with 5 siblings and my family had a lot of contact with farther relatives as well and I had a lot of friends as a child and I developed these problems anyway. It isn't about "training" or so.
Secondly, why do this matter? A disease can mean anything which significantly impairs functioning in some way. Also things like cancer are very dependent on how you live and I believe that you would accept it as a disease, just because there are lifestyle factors doesn't meant that it isn't a disease.
It is extremely hard to change yourself mentally. As an example imagine the thing in the world which you hate and loathe the most. Like a person, some cult, a movement, a game, some food or some music. Now try to go from loathing it to loving it, right now before you start reading the next sentence. Can you do it? Probably not. Why? You really gain nothing from loathing and hating things like that. Imagine now that you loathe and hate peoples attention that much. Every time you go out and every time you meet someone you feel it. Wouldn't that be a hell way worse than anything you ever have experienced?
Psychology isn't trivial, don't ever be ignorant about it again please.
I'm not trying to downplay the severity of it. I'm trying to understand how it makes sense.
The way I see it, most of these anxieties are related to thoughts and emotions. I believe that thoughts are something we humans can partially control. If you get conditioned into one of these anxieties, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to condition yourself out of them as well?
Or are you trying to tell me that you've had social anxieties as long as you can remember? If not, how did it develop in you?
I know that you can control it, but it ain't that simple. Did you try my thought experiment? Think of something which you feel that you are justified to hate. Then try to love it. That is all but impossible. The point is that you actually believe that people actually are disgusted by and hates you, so feeling shame and guilt when you are near them is justified.
I am not exactly sure how it developed, I remember that I suddenly started thinking that everyone loathes being with me and that I am an evil person for wanting to be with them when all I do is spreading suffering and unhappiness. That was 14 years ago. My childhood wasn't unproblematic but looking back I don't really see what would have caused all of this, I didn't have any problems at all when I was 8. Anyway, I am much better now than what I have been before. But still I need extreme mental discipline or I fall back thinking that it is impossible to like me, that those who know me don't like me and that they will soon stop anyway. That it is better to not like others since it just hurts them being liked by someone they hate etc. That is my default way of thinking about everyone and that is where my mind naturally goes when I don't actively keeps it where it is rational to have it. Thus I am very unstable and every time I lose it I need to work it back, takes a few weeks or so.
The difference here is that when I hate or fear something, there's a logical reason as to why I do that.
Example : I have a fear of bees. The reason why I fear bees is because i've been stung several times, and it hurts a lot. I developed the condition that I should avoid bees.
If I try to tell myself that I love bees, that would be a lie, because I know that bees have a tendency to sting(from experience).
Taking the same example to a social setting it would be like : "I'm afraid of being social because from experience most people are negative towards me". Or : studies have shown that statistically 90% of people are negative towards each other in a social setting.
Then I could understand the anxiety of a social setting.
What I don't understand is how you can have anxiety for something based on claims which have no factual evidence. And I don't believe such an anxiety would develop in a person that grows up in a very social community where he himself is social.
Or is someone who is social with friends etc, one day going to wake up and think that everyone hates him? Why would he even start to think that without some kind of experience to lead him in that direction?. I don't see any possibility of such a thought emerging in such a person.
EDIT :
Just to give some background info on my self :
I am very shy and do not feel comfortable in large social events. I often hesitate to speak up and have low self confidence. I realize that the reason for this is that when I was young I got addicted to computer games and distanced myself more and more from people.
I do not consider myself to have a social anxiety because of that. I know that to be more social I just need to condition myself in a social environment.
Most bees you encountered didn't sting you, they were just nicely tending their flowers and in general just minding their own business. Bees in general are not aggressive at all, so a fear of them is irrational unless you are allergic. I was fearful of wasps before but I used my rational thinking, if the wasps get no reason to sting me then they wont. Also being stung doesn't really hurt that much, the fear is way worse than the physical pain. If you don't scare them then they wont sting you, and wasps are way more aggressive than bees and they got stronger poison. Wasps are still a bit unnerving since the fear is still lurking, but still I have encountered wasps a lot during my lifetime and I have just been stung like 10 times so the fear is hurting way more than the combined pain from the stings.
For me I have no problem at all interacting with people, I have taught classes and when people near me talks about a subject where I feel that I can add something I get a really strong urge to but in and have my say. When I am fully mentally prepared I can do anything. But then as I start to get drained and I get some time to think all of that goes away, all I can think of then is that I really shouldn't be here with these people, they don't know me and would never accept me, it is just a question of time before they will lose all faith in me. It is like the wasps, I know that it is irrational to worry but the fear of the sting is taking its toll even if I mostly can ignore it for short periods of time.
The bee analogy is quite good. What happened to me that I consider sparked the social anxiety was my friends held an intervention for me, claiming I was gay and telling me to come out of the closet, even after I had gotten angry with one of them in the past for flirting with my crush, and opening up to another about girls I liked. The problem was not that they thought I was gay, rather, that they did not take me seriously when I opened up about my troubles with women, and that they would simmer their idea of gay-me for a while before holding an intervention where it was clear they discussed it behind my back first.
After this I isolated myself, and didn't really want to be around people for a few weeks. I still had to go to class though, so when I went to class, I tried to find a spot where no one was sitting. One day I sat down in a big lecture hall right in the center of a small grouping of empty seats, just so I could have my peace and not be disturbed any more than I already had been recently due to the intervention. Some asshole decides it's a good idea to talk about me to his friends about 1-2 rows of desks away. But he acted like he wasn't talking about me, he pretended it was him who "had problems." He said stuff like "I don't have any friends." and "I don't wanna sit by anybody today." but he said it with a whiny tone that made it sound like he was talking about someone else, 95% chance it's me. It's like, can't you just walk over and say hi instead of being an asshole? Edit: not like I'm gonna load some stranger with my recent disturbing friendship problems and basically impose myself as being alone and in need of real friendship.
Then little stuff like what happened with that guy kept happening with random other people, and I became aware of how women indirectly ridicule you in public while you are sitting with them in a group setting. They simply talk about someone else that you don't know as though that person is a direct clone of you, and then discuss how they feel about this or that thing that the person does or something they don't like about how he looks. What gets awkward is if you ask them questions about the guy they're talking about and you can even find out some of them don't exist if you really want to know that I'm telling you the truth here.
The feelings kind of snowball until you're close to misanthropy.
Also, just something for ruXxar, please try to be more considerate of people. Don't explicitly say you have a hard time believing in something that others experience concretely. I understand you don't mean hurt, just please try to use your words more carefully in the future.
god i just went to my work's staff leaving/birthday/combo party what a nightmare so awkward i had to leave after 2 hours coz i got more and more uncomfortable and couldnt stand it i even had a "bro" to chill with but i dont drink so i could only foresee awkwardness in the future and was already too uncomfortable by the time he turned up he was like "sometimes you just have to let it go and chill out" i dont even know what that means , to me it means get shitfaced and everything is awesome, but i havent drank for 6+ months and last time that happened i was an awkward disaster anyway im not even awkward i dont think, just no one really talks to me / tries to engage with me, and i try to engage others but it falters out and have nothing to say to some people except random stuff like "do you play a musical instrument" wtf completely hopeless -__-
On March 23 2012 03:26 phosphorylation wrote: This is a very honest and eye opening blog. Just a shot in dark: have you considered taking acting classes? Maybe that can help you cope with social situations a little bit better -- even if it's only a superficial solution.
The whole discussion of whether it's "real" disease or whether there's a physiological cause is pretty pointless.
Ultimately, the patient is diagnosed with the disorder if his anxiety is causing him problems in his everyday life => From the definition, there can be various causes - substance abuse, genetics, medical causes, unfortunate childhood, a significant event in life - usually a combination of these.
If the patient has a problem and there are ways to help him, it's a good thing that he's diagnosed. It's not like you get diagnosed with anxiety disorder 73% and bipolar disorder 27% anyway, it's just to get an idea of what the patient is going through and what could make him better.
Does anyone suggest that only those with a known medical cause should be treated? If the person is faking it, it's probably Münchausen and there should be ways to find the patient out and help him. Otherwise, what's there to discuss? Afaik more than 25% (or 50% even? not sure) of people with bipolar disorder commit a suicide. With these data in mind, does anyone hesitate to call that a "real disease"?
Do one thing that scares you every day and go from there. It's not easy but the rewards are big. Human interaction is necessary for a fulfulling life.
I say this because you said you have decided against drugs, which I think I would do in your situation as well and there really is no other way through this.
On March 23 2012 07:36 Bigtony wrote: Suck it up and do hard shit.
Do one thing that scares you every day and go from there. It's not easy but the rewards are big. Human interaction is necessary for a fulfulling life.
I say this because you said you have decided against drugs, which I think I would do in your situation as well and there really is no other way through this.
Exposure therapy is incredibly effective for these kinds of things so yes, look that stuff up
On March 23 2012 07:32 Stratos wrote: The whole discussion of whether it's "real" disease or whether there's a physiological cause is pretty pointless.
Ultimately, the patient is diagnosed with the disorder if his anxiety is causing him problems in his everyday life => From the definition, there can be various causes - substance abuse, genetics, medical causes, unfortunate childhood, a significant event in life - usually a combination of these.
If the patient has a problem and there are ways to help him, it's a good thing that he's diagnosed. It's not like you get diagnosed with anxiety disorder 73% and bipolar disorder 27% anyway, it's just to get an idea of what the patient is going through and what could make him better.
Does anyone suggest that only those with a known medical cause should be treated? If the person is faking it, it's probably Münchausen and there should be ways to find the patient out and help him. Otherwise, what's there to discuss? Afaik more than 25% (or 50% even? not sure) of people with bipolar disorder commit a suicide. With these data in mind, does anyone hesitate to call that a "real disease"?
I might've worded myself wrongly before.
I'm not trying to say that it's not a real condition that someone is experiencing. I do believe that people are feeling these emotions of fear and anxiety.
What I want more clarity about is how these conditions come about. I don't believe that people get these conditions from nowhere without some kind of experience in their life leading them to that condition.
Maybe the reasons we have these conditions arising in people in recent times is that because in the past, any human that tried to isolate themselves from a group would starve and die off rather quickly.
That's probably true, but these days it's also harder to get away with battery, so people tend to isolate instead of beating someone to a pulp as we were prone to do in earlier times.
On March 23 2012 07:32 Stratos wrote: The whole discussion of whether it's "real" disease or whether there's a physiological cause is pretty pointless.
Ultimately, the patient is diagnosed with the disorder if his anxiety is causing him problems in his everyday life => From the definition, there can be various causes - substance abuse, genetics, medical causes, unfortunate childhood, a significant event in life - usually a combination of these.
If the patient has a problem and there are ways to help him, it's a good thing that he's diagnosed. It's not like you get diagnosed with anxiety disorder 73% and bipolar disorder 27% anyway, it's just to get an idea of what the patient is going through and what could make him better.
Does anyone suggest that only those with a known medical cause should be treated? If the person is faking it, it's probably Münchausen and there should be ways to find the patient out and help him. Otherwise, what's there to discuss? Afaik more than 25% (or 50% even? not sure) of people with bipolar disorder commit a suicide. With these data in mind, does anyone hesitate to call that a "real disease"?
I might've worded myself wrongly before.
I'm not trying to say that it's not a real condition that someone is experiencing. I do believe that people are feeling these emotions of fear and anxiety.
What I want more clarity about is how these conditions come about. I don't believe that people get these conditions from nowhere without some kind of experience in their life leading them to that condition.
Maybe the reasons we have these conditions arising in people in recent times is that because in the past, any human that tried to isolate themselves from a group would starve and die off rather quickly.
Why do you keep saying "I don't believe ilness is caused by X or Y."? How do you expect anyone to counter that kind of an argument? Just look up some literature on the ilness instead of making these blind claims, there's a lot of info in wikipedia at least to get you started.
For instance bipolar disorder is heritable to some degree at least, so yes, there are genetics involved and even the best of social experiences might not help you overcome it. If you look up Steven Fry's documentary on manic depression (that's what they used to call bipolar disorder before) he tells his story, so you might get a better idea. Note that the anxiety disorder is often seen together with this disease - it might be a byproduct of a certain social experience, caused by the bipolar disorder itself. Is it then just a social experience or is there something more to it in that case? If you're weird to begin with, how do you expect to live a normal social life as a teenager?
You could be right about the social experiences and the current environment having to do with the onset of a lot of these disorders and it's good thinking. But it's bold, to say the least, to claim it's the only factor because you believe so. Also the fact that a certain disorder might come about with a social (in)experience, doesn't necessarily mean it can be fixed like that.
This matter is way too complex to argue about unless you have a deeper understanding of physiology, psychology, the disorder itself and the patient even. The fact that you don't even bother to specify the certain disorder you want to talk about suggests to me that you know very little, as well as I do. Please let us not condescend to forums science based upon our limited observations and assumptions.
I understand you perfectly and I can relate to you in many ways. The worst thing about this disorder is that you are conciously aware that it is YOU who is building walls around yourself to isolate yourself, and it is you that is making judgmental comments about yourself (she doesn't find me interesting, why would anyone spend time with me I'm a loser, I am afraid of rejection so why bother with actually going along with it... the list just goes on infinitely) The part that causes despair is feeling of hopelesness, that nothing you will ever do will make any positive impact, that you are unable to change this situation.
It is like a parasite that eats you from inside. For two years during the period when I lost about 30 kilos in weight, I felt like the happiest, most successful and self-confident person in the world. However, the year after that many bad events happened in my family life and also I failed a course, got depressed, starting eating more and exercising less which led to me gaining weight, and I still cannot shake this up. It kinda got into a loop that I cannot really shake away. It has got to the point that I'm thinking maybe I'm not born to be socially activate, maybe I'm not really able to form strong relationships. Maybe I am just not equipped to live in the society. I just don't know what to do, I've been contemplating death recently, not suicide because I don't wanna kill myself (I dont even think I can manage that) but if something happened and I died, I don't think at this point I would have any complaints.
This shit makes you envy the people around you, go to places together and enjoy the stuff, and when they invite you, you start to form up excuses to go and enjoy your own solitude, sometimes even the silliest excuses. Every new situation is a complete unknown to you and you know you are going to fail at it no matter what. There are times when you try something new and it works, and this provides a boost of happiness for some time, but the underlying problem is still there, eating at you. When you are actually with people you are dying to talk, you are yearning for an hour long good conversation, but when you're actually in one, you fear saying a stupid thing and be silent.
If there is someone around you who is shy, who doesn't go partying much or join social activities, or looks like he's constantly being bombarded by others' opinions and even among a group of 50 people feel like he's the one standing out as a loser and idiot, please don't just stand by and watch, I don't know what you can do, but just keep that in mind. Maybe one day you can do or suggest something that might help him.
This stuff is pissing me off lately. I always had this to some degree but lately it has gone worse. Even with exams, daily life, interacting with people i don't know etc. it makes me feel really bad emotionally. Like someone is gonna blame you for something and you won't have an answer, or you have a responsibility but you will screw up and it will look really bad.
I am actually pretty rational person but i understood that this has nothing to do with how you think or what makes sense or not. This stuff is about feelings. You may know some feelings you got doesn't make sense and is not true, but they will still screw you up negatively because believe me it's not easy to stop them on your own. Sometimes when i'm expected to do some work if it's demanding i start shaking and having stomach aches it starts to be impossible to focus on stuff. A few times i felt it so severe that i guess i got in panic attack and couldn't recover for 2 days and always shaked and my heart rate was really high continiously.
I don't know how to fix this really, i haven't seen any doctors about this yet but i've used some anti-depression pills before (not many). I'm think there is no drug cure for this kind of stuff but i might be wrong. What scares me is it's getting worse. I can't even focus on exams i will have because i am afraid of failing too much that it always sticks in my mind. And the knowledge of being it's all because of "you" and can't blame anything else doesn't make it better. At age 23 people arround you expect you to be succesfull, especially your parents and failing at stuff even though you know that you are capable of doing them really sucks way too much.
Anxiety sucks so bad. I used to take lexapro for it, I just had weird panicky things like I would hate surfing this one summer when there were jellyfish, and they were big and the stings hurt so bad.
It was not knowing that I was going to be stung that made me lose my mind.