|
On June 15 2017 23:53 lagcats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 23:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Imo foreigner only tournies never went off in sc2, i cannot imagine BW would change that. Its just hard to enjoy competition when you know, the most likely winners werent allowed to play.
I am an anti korean racist, but i believe that there are many others like me, especially on TL. "imo" yes. But sc2 was mostly dominated by koreans in the foreign scene it was rarely that foreigners even won and that might kill the fun in the game for the foreign scene just saying.
Yeah, i bet it does for many people. It would be interesting to know how large the different viewer groups are.
|
This thread convinced me play in these tournaments. Even though I am pretty sure the skill difference between the runner-ups and me is larger than between Scan and them.
But I want to support the organizers for their efforts. I hope they keep doing this.
About the argument I think the most fitting comparison would be whether Michael Schumacher should have been banned from F1 for his perfomance in 2000-2004
|
On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
These who want to keep all tournaments open, I want you to ask one thing. Was the outcome of this situation good in your opinion? Was cancelling the event a natural thing to occur? 1) Yes 2) No, say what could be done about it
Just dont answer with something like 'so don't bash organizers', because it's not possible to control other people. Therefore, it's not a solution. I'm not so sure that anyone wants to keep ALL tournaments open. I think ALL tournaments should be open by default unless otherwise specified. Meaning it's still solely up to the organizer of the tournament to make that decision. I can assure you that each and every person that organizes a tournament, will have a different approach. Some will want everyone to be able to play in it, some will want foreigners only. I would like to see a battle of the top foreigners in a tournament for money. I think we all would. But not every tournament, or every other tournament...
|
So u're saying 1) YES? Nothing should be done (or suggested) and the outcome was good. It was just unlucky that there was no other tournaments happening silmultanously?
|
On June 15 2017 22:39 LML wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 21:48 Cele wrote:On June 15 2017 21:40 LML wrote: Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted). TSL 2 Bannings "for 12 months and TSL 3" And later on he drove to another guy's house and played for him during what was ISL2 iirc. Trying to avoid IP detection for smurfing while being banned from the league.
And Scan was treated as persona non grata for a long time for this on Teamliqiud. I think he was first permitted as a feature streamer again in 2013 and then was permitted to partake in TLS Champs and TLC's. This permission was only taken away because of his dominance in TLC's and the last drama of this kind that came along with it. TL Staff notably defended his participation in that discussion with him being a valuable member of this scene and with his contributions. From my perspective if i might add, he was always an open, helpful and friendly high level player who was never reluctant to share and help. He provided me a ton of replays for ICCUp, hooked me up with chinese contacts, wrote/translated emails to korean pro's on my behalf and always tried to give information and help when i had questions. Long story short, coming into "content creation" or whatever in 2012-13 my impression of Scan was and is always a pleasant one.
For me personally, i think it's worthwile and interesting to have this discussion that is taking place here but i resent any notion of banning Scan because of old grudges. He ain't banned by TL.net anymore, he ain't banned on ICCUP anymore, gg.net doesn't do BW content anymore so that is irrelevant here. So im gonna repeat myself and say 'let bygones be bygones'.
|
On June 16 2017 00:41 Bonyth wrote: So u're saying 1) YES? Nothing should be done (or suggested) and the outcome was good. It was just unlucky that there was no other tournaments happening silmultanously? The outcome was terrible due to the approach that was taken in the beginning stages of the discussion. Nothing should be done if that's what the organizer of the tournament chooses to do. There WILL be tournaments held in the future that will be for foreigners only, trust me. The tournaments that are being held by Schamtoo and FilthyRake aren't one of those tournaments. They compromised in a way that they felt was fair to the players while still sticking to their guns. That was by introducing a losers bracket. The outcome wasn't good for those wanting no Koreans in tournaments, or no Koreans in every other tournament. I'm a bit confused whether you're still trying to change Schamtoo and FilthyRake's mind, or whether you're trying to change the way ALL future tournaments are going to be held.
|
When can we be like all friends how Naruto did after that great war thing? xD
|
On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
Good point. Instead of banning Koreans let's keep them, and instead ban all Polish people. This way we can still have the highest level players, but this kind of drama will probably not happen without a few key posters from this thread.
Maybe this is the compromise that we're all looking for.
User was warned for this post
|
On June 16 2017 01:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself. Good point. Instead of banning Koreans let's keep them, and instead ban all Polish people. This way we can still have the highest level players, but this kind of drama will probably not happen without a few key posters from this thread. Maybe this is the compromise that we're all looking for.
come on, that's uncalled for.
|
On June 16 2017 01:47 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2017 01:45 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself. Good point. Instead of banning Koreans let's keep them, and instead ban all Polish people. This way we can still have the highest level players, but this kind of drama will probably not happen without a few key posters from this thread. Maybe this is the compromise that we're all looking for. can you just stop derailing this thread?
I'll explain a little more, since I was warned for not posting a well-formed argument.
Through the thread first the discussion was on banning Koreans. In the end it seems no conclusion was really reached here, though there were a lot of points in favor, and against. Now the topic of banning anyone is deemed off-topic. To summarize:
+ Show Spoiler [Banning Points] +Pro-Arguments in Favor of Banning Koreans: - They have many advantages since the top talent is in Korea
- They are a higher skill level than foreigners
- Scan is Korean
Anti-Arguments against the Banning of Koreans - Banning Koreans is racist
- Scan is a foreigner, especially based on merit
- Banning the top talent won't fix anything
Then L_Master came in and tried to single handedly shift the conversation to talking about organizing tournaments by skill only. There are some problems that were already voiced that apply to this skill based idea. There were also so pros. Here's each summary list:
Pro-Arguments in Favor of Skill Separation in Tournaments:
- We can have a more fair competition
- This is a compromise, and players posting in this thread want a compromise
- Players could avoid playing against Scan, and still compete in tournaments
Anti-Arguments against Skill Separation in Tournaments
- The player base is too small to split right now
- Tournament organizers don't like the idea for their own reasons
- Splitting the player base would in effect "ban Scan", since he's in a skill tier of his own
I'm heavily in favor of not separating the BW community in any way within the foreign scene, and it seems like the discussion more or less agrees as it has now devolved into defaming Scan, since too many people consider him a foreigner.
So what is left to discuss?
Tournament organizers don't want to change their tournaments to exclude Scan. Eon et al. come in here with walls of emotional text, so clearly they are still unhappy. Bonyth is still saying "something has to change because we're unhappy". So what now? A dead serious question, what else is there to discuss.
Clearly Scan is here to stay. Clearly a few key foreign players are unhappy. Hence my conclusion to ban a couple of those unhappy foreign players. Sure, it's completely satirical sounding, but I'm specifically disappointed enough with their collective conduct in this thread to throw the idea out there and be OK with it actually happening.
|
I'm done here, waste of time and energy trying to convince people like CecilSunkure.
All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW.
|
On June 16 2017 02:20 Bonyth wrote: All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW.
I can answer your question but you will not like it.
We both want Filthy (and others) to be happy, because we like tournaments. But here's the thing: Filthy came in here, and the only thing he was upset by was people like you complaining. So if we go back in time, I would say: stop complaining. I know you don't like this suggestion, but that's my honest suggestion.
We all would like you to be happy too, and the same goes for truta, eon, and any others. Everyone being happy would be ideal. But my last point was trying to say: there doesn't seem to be a valid compromise. Unless someone else has some ideas, I don't see a compromise that can make everyone happy.
So if there's no compromise to be made, and certain players are going to remain unhappy, I see two options: A) ignore the unhappy players; B) don't let the unhappy players compete. Obviously we don't want option B) because that's ridiculous, so we are left with A.
Unless someone has a new idea for option C?
Edit: Ignoring the unhappy players. That sounds harsh, and well it is harsh. But like L_Master ingeniously pointed out, perhaps the unhappy players can write down their suggestions respectfully on a community wiki. This wiki can be sent to tournament organizers. The feedback on the wiki can be anonymous and professional. The tournament organizers can take the feedback or leave it on their own terms.
Maybe this is enough to make you guys happy. If not, I really don't think there's anything left to discuss. If you guys are going to be this ridiculously stubborn, well then all that's left are equally ridiculous ideas, like banning Polish players.
|
Germany3128 Posts
On June 16 2017 02:20 Bonyth wrote: I'm done here, waste of time and energy trying to convince people like CecilSunkure.
All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW. Honestly it seems that Filthy mostly lost interest because of the way people criticised him, being insulted and stuff(you obviously were not one of the guys who did that). He even said that if people would have criticised him normally he would have changed Filthy BW eventually to foreigner only. So I think Filthy didn't really lose interest in BW itself but was mostly bullied out of the scene.
So I don't think there was much people could suggest Filthy to do so he doesn't loose interest aslong as they don't change their way of criticising him.
|
I remember years ago when people would be happy to play Koreans and learn from them, everyone was trying to game them on iccup now it seems like they just wanna dodge my how times change
|
Arb literally every top foreign player plays on Fish to get better by playing Koreans.
|
On June 16 2017 02:24 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2017 02:20 Bonyth wrote: All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW. I can answer your question but you will not like it. We both want Filthy (and others) to be happy, because we like tournaments. But here's the thing: Filthy came in here, and the only thing he was upset by was people like you complaining. So if we go back in time, I would say: stop complaining. I know you don't like this suggestion, but that's my honest suggestion. We all would like you to be happy too, and the same goes for truta, eon, and any others. Everyone being happy would be ideal. But my last point was trying to say: there doesn't seem to be a valid compromise. Unless someone else has some ideas, I don't see a compromise that can make everyone happy. So if there's no compromise to be made, and certain players are going to remain unhappy, I see two options: A) ignore the unhappy players; B) don't let the unhappy players compete. Obviously we don't want option B) because that's ridiculous, so we are left with A. Unless someone has a new idea for option C? Edit: Ignoring the unhappy players. That sounds harsh, and well it is harsh. But like L_Master ingeniously pointed out, perhaps the unhappy players can write down their suggestions respectfully on a community wiki. This wiki can be sent to tournament organizers. The feedback on the wiki can be anonymous and professional. The tournament organizers can take the feedback or leave it on their own terms. Maybe this is enough to make you guys happy. If not, I really don't think there's anything left to discuss. If you guys are going to be this ridiculously stubborn, well then all that's left are equally ridiculous ideas, like banning Polish players.
U didn't read carefully my question. I asked: what would YOU do if u could rewind the time to keep the tours happening. Your answer was: mind control everyone so they don't complain XD So u'd rather have no tournaments and unhappy organizer, than telling him to make (for example) every 2nd tournament open which would lead to 0 casualties. I honestly don't get this logic. I just don't. I better just quit this conversation. My mind cannot comprehend what's going on in your minds.
|
At this point this whole discussion just sounds like top foreigners are mad that they can't win against Scan and this has nothing to do with Koreans in general - as those same top foreigners play on Fish, nor does it has anything to do with some kind of arbitrary benefits Koreans have - as those same top foreigners play for over a decade in some cases.
So - as offensive as it sounds, this just looks like "top foreigners" being unhappy that they don't win. A very absurd notion, as top players should strive for stronger competition and be glad to continue to have challenges thrown at them - not to fall asleep on laurels as best and get mad when they don't get their bigger bite out of a pie.
|
On June 16 2017 02:46 Bonyth wrote: U didn't read carefully my question. I asked: what would YOU do if u could rewind the time to keep the tours happening.
I don't really think there's anything I could have done :o
On June 16 2017 02:46 Bonyth wrote: So u'd rather have no tournaments and unhappy organizer, than telling him to make (for example) every 2nd tournament open which would lead to 0 casualties.
I don't really like the idea of every second tournament, because I don't think it would work. But if someone politely wrote down the suggestion on a wiki, and sent that to Filthy, then I don't think Filthy would have gotten upset.
|
This is just ridicolous. I dont't want to be a part of this forum anymore. Good bye
|
TLADT24917 Posts
Seeing as this thread seems to have run its course and the discussion is not going anywhere, time to close it. Thanks to everyone for trying their best to understand the other side. I'm sure we'll run into this issue again sometime in the near future so hopefully everyone gives their stance another thought by then
|
|
|
|