Since the discussion on Filthycup's topic has been closed I thought it would be interesting to have our own topic to discuss about that.
I think foreign community really need to have a good talk about that, and if we all stay open minded and calm something really nice where everyone is happy can come up with that. First, i want to say that i'm part of the "top foreigners" (not the top 5 but i'm an "ok player"), i was for a ban of scan for every foreigner tournaments, but after discussing with some of you against, by PM, i changed a bit my mind. Maybe it was because of some "conflicts of interest" or not being open enough on the subject.
Do koreans have a significant advantage compared to foreigners ?
I think the answer is : YES And even Scan would agree with that, i'm explaining why :
- They can understand every shoutcasts from PL, ASL, etc..
- They can understand every stream from pros (Flash Jaedong Bisu...) explaining what they are doing, why the lost, answering to questions ...
- They have access to pros' streams way easier than us, i don't know for you guys but 2/3 i can't properly watch the stream due to lag or stream not even starting.
- They have access to fish (korean server) way easier than all of us, and even if you can now login a bit easier,1/2 of your game it's lagging and you have to leave and find another opponent. If your opponent knows that you are a foreigner a lot of them disc hack, you got the loss and you can't even make a complain because admins will ban you from fish (yes, they are dicks)
- They have the highest level and share some replays, tutorials (some of them have been partially subtitle but only few), they can find practice partner to discuss after the game what they did wrong.
- Starcraft has been recognized has a "sport" in korea and is more accepted, parents even if they don't like it, knows you can make a living with that so It's way easier to explain to your parents/family/friends that you are playing 10hours a day to be the best and maybe make a living of that. When you are foreigner you play 10hours a day to make 10$ a month ? how can they accept/understand that ?
Anyways, i'm gonna stop here, but i think there are plenty others exemples like that. I don't know if i convinced some of you but for me it is clearly an advantage they have over foreigners.
Now we have come to that, is it necessary to ban koreans from our tournaments ?
This point remind me a lot from some topics about having tournaments for ladies only. Males has no advantage so why would you have some tournaments for ladies only ? Because so few of them are playing. To attract them, having tour only for girls can help some girls to try the game, make some friends easier and having the goal to be the "best girl on sc2 or csgo...".
I think it's similar to some extend. When i play in a foreign tournaments, i wanna know who is the best foreigner, but with koreans allowed it's just about who played the korean(s) in last.
I want some rivalriy, that can't exist FOR THE MOMENT, with koreans.
It may be fun to watch for viewers, but from a player perspective it became boring fast and you start to wonder why playing in those tournaments instead of playing on fish where you can play some of the best players without having to wait between matchs.
I think when the community will be bigger it's gonna be fine to have ALL our tournaments open to koreans.
But we have to keep in mind that Scan who is korean and have advantage over foreigners isn't a former pro and didn't get all this time in gaming house and coachs. He trained by himself and get good because of hours of training, but even with that it didn't succeeded to qualify to ASL and all other tournaments because pro also got HUGE advantage from their practice. On top of that Scan have been part ot TL's community for years now and really helped us. How if that fair for him to ban him from our tournaments ?
I have to admit that i hadn't think about Scan or semi-pro's perspective. So with that in mind I think a good solution would be to have maybe 50/50 of our tournaments open and closed to koreans or maybe 75/25 ? Or maybe organize some tournaments without money or only 10 or 20$ for the winner and then a "super tournament" with all winners in it and the "real prize pool" ?
What do you guys think about it ?
OUT OF TOPIC
I've been thinking about this for a while but what do you guys think about organizing some show match between some pro against 2 top foreigners in team melee mode ? I think it could be really fun to watch and really fun to play for pros and top foreigners.
PS : I also would also like to add that the community is small and fragile, you can't come up as an organizer and don't listen to the community or wanna change everything that have been done until now. We really need to work together organizers, players and viewers ! Anyways, thanks to Filthycup and Shamtoo even if they did some things wrong (for me), they did their best, always have been patient and polite and invested a lot of time and money for us, so thanks you guys.
Honestly I don't think it will matter in the end. The organizers will do as they see fit themselves. It all depends on what they want from the tourney.
Everything you mentioned about the Korean player state is correct, and it is a fact that foreigners cannot really compete with that. Basically there is not a single person who has followed BW properly who would deny this. And I'm sure that everyone here understands that the people with 20-50 posts in the other thread who tried to sell it as a state of mind and whatnot honestly have no clue what they're talking about. Hopefully we won't be getting such talks in this thread.
But yeah, in the end - the organizers pick what they want -- do they want people to show the absolute top levels of play that the korean(s) can bring, or do they want to see games that are more even. It is basically the same thing with viewers aswell. We have people who want to see close games, and we have people who just want to see how good someone can play and dismantle opponents who are below their skill level.
In an ideal world, I would say that there would be tournaments for both types. Both foreigner only and "koreans allowed" tourneys. And hopefully the korean allowed tourneys would have more than 1-2 koreans in them, and we'd actually only see 1-2 foreigners there instead, so we'd have close KR vs KR games, and the eventual foreigner who'd want to test himself.
That being said, I personally would probably want to see some larger restrictions aswell. Like back in the day, some tourneys where A ranked players aren't allowed, because let's be honest, the foreigner-only tournaments will only have some 4-5 people who would have a chance to win too. And most of them are zerg which doesn't hold up the interest of viewers for long.
also the team melee idea sounds fun. I'd love to see it.
First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I am totally fine with foreigners only tournaments. Just make it clear in the tournament name. Filthy Cup was open to all. It should not change, that would be really bad for Scan and for the foreigners aswell, since it makes them look bad if the rules have to be changed.
We can come up with more reasons to have foreigners only tournaments, like if you have players from EU in the tournament, the connection just becomes too bad to korea. So NA/EU only. NA only, EU only etc... If there are more player when SC:R hits you probably could split regions for timezones aswell, have qualifiers for KR/NA/EU, small weekly cup, maybe just points to qualify for monthly final, where all regions meet.
It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals).
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
So if the Nr. 1 ranked tennis player in the world has a better training environment than all the other tennis players he should be banned?
I honestly have no problem with banning Korean 'pros' but this whole topic isn't about 'Should we ban Koreans from foreign tournaments' but it's only about 'Should we ban Scan from foreign tournaments' which is just wrong in my opinion.
I honestly have no problem with banning Korean 'pros' but this whole topic isn't about 'Should we ban Koreans from foreign tournaments' but it's only about 'Should we ban Scan from foreign tournaments' which is just wrong in my opinion.
please read the name of the thread and stick to that discussion.
banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
edit~ banning scan is even MORE dumb because the dude studies in the US and speaks perfect english lol... he's basically a foreigner! at that point people are just banning him because he's too good for them and they want false validation. i will shit talk any tourny that bans koreans just so that they can "ban scan," because it's idiotic and very, VERY noob.
On June 13 2017 21:09 BonitiilloO wrote: Just allow no progamers koreans. just amateurs ones.
korean pro gamers do not play in our tournaments anyway. allowing amateur koreans is what is happening right now. The difference between amateur koreans and our top players is too large to ignore, which is why we have players unhappy with the current situation.
On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
counter-argument --- Imagine you're playing in a counter strike tournament. There are 10 teams in the tournament. Your team has a 10% chance to win the whole thing.
Then a team comes along where everyone has 20 times more HP than your team.
Is that fair for competition? Do you think the other 9 teams feel motivated to compete? Before you say that it's not a valid comparison - it really is. The skill difference really is that large currently.
On June 13 2017 21:09 BonitiilloO wrote: Just allow no progamers koreans. just amateurs ones.
korean pro gamers do not play in our tournaments anyway. allowing amateur koreans is what is happening right now. The difference between amateur koreans and our top players is too large to ignore, which is why we have players unhappy with the current situation.
On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
counter-argument --- Imagine you're playing in a counter strike tournament. There are 10 teams in the tournament. Your team has a 10% chance to win the whole thing.
Then a team comes along where everyone has 20 times more HP than your team.
Is that fair for competition? Do you think the other 9 teams feel motivated to compete? Before you say that it's not a valid comparison - it really is. The skill difference really is that large currently.
koreans aren't inherently superior to foreigners, they just take the game seriously and don't sit in the iccup 2x2 channel talking to peruvians for 5 hours a day. they spend the time practicing and getting better. so no, your counter argument isn't the same situation at all, because it's not a systemic issue, it's a player issue.
if you want to have a tournament that is just for noobs that don't take the game seriously and don't want to put the time in learning korean to play with better people, then at least call a spade a spade. but don't be surprised when people call your tournament contestants noobs
No, there's really no discussion to be had. If you think that speaking Korean or that living in Korea is an advantage then go there and learn Korean if it's that important to you. Nothing stops you from that, there are different ways to do it. There's no insurmountable advantages that Koreans have and that you cant have. If you wish to create an amateur only tournament, why not. But the definition of amateur shouldn't be non-Korean. I despise people who are okay with thinking that they suck so bad that they need special categories for absolute no reason.
On June 13 2017 21:39 Endymion wrote: koreans aren't inherently superior to foreigners, they just take the game seriously and don't sit in the iccup 2x2 channel talking to peruvians for 5 hours a day. they spend the time practicing and getting better. so no, your counter argument isn't the same situation at all, because it's not a systemic issue, it's a player issue.
You're just wrong. Completely and utterly wrong and I don't know what else to say to that. Also even if you were right about foreigners just chatting and sucking on their own thumb instead of playing, my argument would still stand, because the fact that the skill difference is preposterous still remains.
On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
edit~ banning scan is even MORE dumb because the dude studies in the US and speaks perfect english lol... he's basically a foreigner! at that point people are just banning him because he's too good for them and they want false validation. i will shit talk any tourny that bans koreans just so that they can "ban scan," because it's idiotic and very, VERY noob.
How is that the death of competition ? So you would like to see a boxing match man vs girl ? You don't think one of them has an indisputable advantage over the other ? Of course it's useful to have some categories in sports. Another exemple dumber : if there are no banning then when you start soccer at the age of 6 you should be able to play with pro ? How fun is would be to have a team of children to play against FC Barcelona...
I'm not asking to ban koreans for life just from time to time, to emulate foreign community.
If the tournament is organized to attract foreigners and lower levels, then make it foreign only. You can also make korean only tournaments. But let's face it, foreigners have no chance even vs ex b-teamers, semi pros or training partners. I quit watching few tournaments just becouse it's not too exciting to see another level player bashing foreigners.
On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
edit~ banning scan is even MORE dumb because the dude studies in the US and speaks perfect english lol... he's basically a foreigner! at that point people are just banning him because he's too good for them and they want false validation. i will shit talk any tourny that bans koreans just so that they can "ban scan," because it's idiotic and very, VERY noob.
How is that the death of competition ? So you would like to see a boxing match man vs girl ? You don't think one of them has an indisputable advantage over the other ? Of course it's useful to have some categories in sports. Another exemple dumber : if there are no banning then when you start soccer at the age of 6 you should be able to play with pro ? How fun is would be to have a team of children to play against FC Barcelona...
I'm not asking to ban koreans for life just from time to time, to emulate foreign community.
Anyway what do you think of my proposals ?
it's the death of competition because imo there aren't physical limitations between genders in esports, although i will admit that there are very systematic limitations for women trying to get into games (actually only one, being that it's extremely difficult to find good practice partners as a woman because the majority of guys will try to "practice with you" with the intent to sleep with you in the long run instead of actually trying to improve themselves).
as far as racial distinctions go, you don't see "white only" running competitions since the majority of strong runners are black, do you?
additionally, it's not common to see race or gender based distinctions in Go or chess tournies, so why in broodwar?
According to me, we need to keep in mind that this discussion aim to understand how to develop our community and not to make the competition itself more interesting, skilled or whatever ... Taking that into account, you can understand (and it happens in many tournaments of various subjects) that if someone is completely dominating tournaments, outsiders won't even try to do take part in it whereas they could just take that time to practice even more (playing tournaments is not a productive way to practice in starcraft).
So what do we prefer : - Tournaments with more talented players but with fewer & fewer competitors as time fly ? - Or do we prefer to start making a tournament's rivalry with few less talented players, but that can all afford to reach the 1st spot ?
I have experienced some lan events where i was sitting next to Warcraft 3 players in France. Lots of players cancelled their trips once they know ToD (Warcraft 3 professional players who was competing worldwide) was coming. The competition had more skill, but remember that there is no competition without players.
I don't think one option is better than the other one since I am a 100% sure that we need a mix of it.
I don't see anything wrong with having regional tournies, See who is the best in EU, NA etc. A tournie that just excludes KR players specifically.... that just sounds a bit lame though.
- They can understand every stream from pros (Flash Jaedong Bisu...) explaining what they are doing, why the lost, answering to questions ...
Here you go. It's not every pro and it's still a work in progress but there's lots of good videos there.
On June 13 2017 20:30 KenZy wrote: - They have access to pro's streams way easier than us, i don't know for you guys but 2/3 i can't properly watch the stream due to lag or stream not even starting.
Simple solution: Since tournament organizers set the rules, just make foreigner-only tournaments. Organize one yourself if you want. It's perfectly valid to set these types of limits, but throwing the word "ban" around is harsh.
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
So if the Nr. 1 ranked tennis player in the world has a better training environment than all the other tennis players he should be banned?
Well I don't think Federer should be allowed to play for amateur championship. And he is not.
You can have a discussion with tour admins and sponsors, but it is not a good idea to continue harassing them. They made their own decisions and ran tournaments.
Idk why some foreign users are loling at korean users when they know they are better than koreans. Also, they don't seem caring much about their participations in their tournaments. (Ex: SonStar. Mbc game hero semipro or pro)
But then once there's a Korean user who can be dominant (my story) in their tournaments, idk why he deserves to hear lots of trashtalk. If some people are just gonna say about bring more Koreans, then help the admins or you do the job for them to make their tournaments fantastic. Like i mentioned in a previous comment in FilthyBW thread, if you want to make separate tournaments, go ahead. I won't be sneaking in. I always respect tournaments' admins' decision and their PoV.
From all experience I've gone through, i felt like there are many users who are just NATO(No Action Talk Only). Also, spent nearly 0 effort for their scene.
The sad thing about this all is that people who were thinking of sponsoring tournaments in the future for our community will think twice. We might see a decrease of such events because of the drama from the Filthy Cup.
if only this discussion would not be the 50th one of its kind. discussing this again will not lead to a solution, people will be pissed at each other again for the same reasons as always.
PS: i dont care if koreans are banned, i dont decide my tournament participation based on who is already participating.
On June 13 2017 23:12 AQQuartz wrote: This is garbage Koreans are just better because they practice more and don't make silly excuses like this.
Agreed. Instead of listing excuses, find a solution. You don't understand Korean so you can't comprehend what the players are saying during their coaching video? Learn Korean. You can't get games on Fish server because of lag issues? Get a better internet connection and or computer. It's not their fault that they have access these resources, it's your fault that you don't. Find a solution!!! In the end, we're ALL playing the same game here. Get real whiners...
I don't think this would be a topic of discussion if the best Starcraft players in the world were from Canada or Sweden or something like that. Koreans are not special and the ones that are good are good because they put in a lot of hard work. Banning based on ethnicity is just wrong in my opinion.
Of course it is up to the tournament organizers first. Whether they want a regional based tournament or amateur only tournament etc. No reason to petition to ban one ethnicity.
On June 13 2017 23:39 CobaltBlu wrote: I don't think this would be a topic of discussion if the best Starcraft players in the world were from Canada or Sweden or something like that. Koreans are not special and the ones that are good are good because they put in a lot of hard work. Banning based on ethnicity is just wrong in my opinion.
Of course it is up to the tournament organizers first. Whether they want a regional based tournament or amateur only tournament etc. No reason to petition to ban one ethnicity.
On June 13 2017 22:25 Heyjoray wrote: Why do foreigner wanna play on nothing but Fish, yet not want "them" (Scan) in their "Tournaments"?
Ladder & Tournaments aren't the same thing
Yes they are, you dont get pumped up in Korea, just to complain that koreans are playing in your "region". Koreans arent your personal sparring partner, who are just their whenever you like it. Especially when that Skill foreigner acquired is out of korea anyway
just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
Honestly this thread confuses me. There are dozens of lower end tournaments that already dont have koreans-- because our community is small, the skill set is low, and designed for a particular subset of players. I.e drtl, DRIT, CPL, etc. No koreans. The community already has tournaments that are meant to sustain and grow the community. If were just talking about purely high level players, frankly, I dont think Skizy or whomever are seeking easy competition.
Seems like a nonissue. SC2 had problems with Koreans destroying every tournament, broodwar doesnt. If anything our communities are already TOO separate.
I think that it all boils down to the fact that this is the ' Foreign ' BW Scene, Foreign = Non-Korean ... So why would there be Koreans in Non-Korean aka ' Foreign ' Tournaments? Just because a Korean is part of the foreign scene, doesn't mean he/she should be able to participate in NON-Korean Tournaments, it is just common sense / simple logic.
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I really like this post, because it adresses the issue at hand.
As mentioned in the other thread, allowing Koreans never really was such a great idea for today's scene. It's quite small and you basically know everyone. The best tournament series and single time events generated a great atmosphere, both for viewers and players, due to this family-feeling. Koreans didn't really add to it, as shown by Defiler. You had guys like Anfod or Neagle showing up, either being arrogant, non-talkative and/or hacking in the case for the latter. There was nothing these guys added. Not mentioning other factors, such as lag, the language barrier kicking in and the general lack of interest in the foreign scene if it's not for a larger prize pool. I really do not recommend to add Koreans at all for generic events, as it takes a ton of fun and energy needlessly.
However, Scan is something different. Here you could actually argue about whether or not he should be allowed. It comes down to the organizer's decision to put him in, as he doesn't come with huge amount of auto lag, does contribute and speaks English better than some foreigners.
I also like the idea to host several events for foreigners only, since it might be really shitty to play such a good player non-stop everywhere. Face it, nobody here can or even wants to be "professional", therefore it's unrealistic someone will become good enough to compete with Scan on eye level in serious games for the next one or two years. The community has way too few dedicated young players to keep up with Brood War and the training regime it requires. I can understand the better players, when they say they get tired of getting smacked by him, as there is literally no other ground for them to play seriously outside an anon ladder. There's no gain for anyone, don't kid yourself, some measly 20-100$ every other week (keeping in mind that you can't predict at which point you lose to Scan in tours) is not such a big deal for most players, as by now most of us have steady paying jobs.
The idea to also host special events featuring Koreans and/or episodes free for Scan seems like a good solution. Just to test them out. But please, if you really want Koreans to attent, try to advertise these events in a fashion that's needed.
On June 14 2017 01:25 GGzerG wrote: I think that it all boils down to the fact that this is the ' Foreign ' BW Scene, Foreign = Non-Korean ... So why would there be Koreans in Non-Korean aka ' Foreign ' Tournaments? Just because a Korean is part of the foreign scene, doesn't mean he/she should be able to participate in NON-Korean Tournaments, it is just common sense / simple logic.
The only reason theres a foreign scene at all is due to connection and language barriers, no one actually wants it. Everyone would prefer to play on Fish. This community split isnt something to celebrate, it was never intentional. It simply happened.
On June 14 2017 01:25 GGzerG wrote: I think that it all boils down to the fact that this is the ' Foreign ' BW Scene, Foreign = Non-Korean ... So why would there be Koreans in Non-Korean aka ' Foreign ' Tournaments? Just because a Korean is part of the foreign scene, doesn't mean he/she should be able to participate in NON-Korean Tournaments, it is just common sense / simple logic.
Koreans do not ban foreigners from playing in korean tournaments though. Am I wrong?
The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
On June 13 2017 22:25 Heyjoray wrote: Why do foreigner wanna play on nothing but Fish, yet not want "them" (Scan) in their "Tournaments"?
Ladder & Tournaments aren't the same thing
Yes they are, you dont get pumped up in Korea, just to complain that koreans are playing in your "region". Koreans arent your personal sparring partner, who are just their whenever you like it. Especially when that Skill foreigner acquired is out of korea anyway
It's completely different. Sparring isn't the same thing as an actual competition. It's practice and training.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
If you would like to state that I'm here for the money, then say it to all players who are participating as well. If you are just going to pick on me, you are wrong. If you want to point out money hunters, I can named them for you. Anfod, Neagle, and SonStar.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
If you would like to state that I'm here for the money, then say it to all players who are participating as well. If you are just going to pick on me, you are wrong. If you want to point out money hunters, I can named them for you. Anfod, Neagle, and SonStar.
You are the best example. If I was to join a D+ tourney every week end at some point I would feel bad about it, that's just me. At the end it's the organizer's choice.
Korean's dont have any inherent physical or mental advantages when it comes to broodwar. It is just cultural and attitudes towards their dedication to the game. It is racist to try to have equal outcome instead of equal opportunity, which is what affirmative action really is.
Are blacks/hispanics just inherently dumber than asians? -No, but perhaps their cultural beliefs and values are different, one may put more emphasis and value in education which leads more of one ethnic group to make those kinds of decisions. We should judge a person as an individual, not based on their group that we subjectively decide on.
- Admins wtf? I expressed my opinion on this topic, and for what purpose it was created?
Other people who just said Yes/No and had no word in the discussion at all where also warned. It probably didn't help that you only registered for that post. Mods already said in the Filthy BW thread they would watch the discussion closely.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
If you would like to state that I'm here for the money, then say it to all players who are participating as well. If you are just going to pick on me, you are wrong. If you want to point out money hunters, I can named them for you. Anfod, Neagle, and SonStar.
You are the best example. If I was to join a D+ tourney every week end at some point I would feel bad about it, that's just me. At the end it's the organizer's choice.
Why does that lead that I am a money hunter? I always associate with TL members and audiences from my Twitch stream chat. I shared tons of stuff that not a lot of people knew/how to do some tricky micros, etc.
This is %100 up to the organizer. They put the sweat, money, and hours into making this event happen. That being said:
Message to players: If you disagree with the way a tournament is being run, then don't participate and politely state your reasons for not participating in the proper forum. Let the organizer be informed of why they have low attendance or viewers in a constructive way and maybe the organizer will change their ways. And if they don't, just show your appreciation for their dedication to the scene and accept that there is a difference of opinions.
Message to Organizers: I think it is very important for Organizers to try hard to understand and become familiar with the players that compete in their events. Teamliquid is very grassroots and everyone enjoys being a part of something great. Keeping an ear to the ground and facilitating good discussion is the way to be taken in by the community. Whether it is the Filthy Tournament thread or Where's moletrap thread, there is a lot of discussion around nonconstructive criticism. Now I know I'm not the biggest personality on the scene, but I get 0% negative/hurtful comments sent to me, but I do have tons of PMs with constructive criticism that I take seriously. And even if I don't agree I let everyone know I'm thankful for their time to care enough to reach out to me. Players are responsible for being really good at the game. Personalities should be responsible for setting a good example. As hard as it is, take the high road, love everyone despite their flaws, and the persistence will lead everyone down a better path.
On June 13 2017 23:12 AQQuartz wrote: This is garbage Koreans are just better because they practice more and don't make silly excuses like this.
Agreed. Instead of listing excuses, find a solution. You don't understand Korean so you can't comprehend what the players are saying during their coaching video? Learn Korean. You can't get games on Fish server because of lag issues? Get a better internet connection and or computer. It's not their fault that they have access these resources, it's your fault that you don't. Find a solution!!! In the end, we're ALL playing the same game here. Get real whiners...
You just found how to save the world. Guys, those arguments are the worst...
We should concentrate on the debate, what's the goal of those tournaments ? Having the best level in it ? Or helping foreign community ? If we wanted to have the best players in it we would not organize it on TL and we would need a lot more money because Flash and JD won't play in it. It's clearly to help foreign community.
Do you think allowing all koreans is helping foreigners ? If that's the case good for you, but please explain me how.
1week ago i played in filthy cup, i got a W.O in first round, then my opponent didn't show up 2nd round, i were in quarter final (3rd round) and had to face Scan. I waited 1h30 to play vs Scan who 8rax'd me. I'm not mad at him, it's the game bue how is that fun ? I could have played on fish or iccup or being with friends, but no i played in a tournament where there are no more players and got smashed without learning anything.
A lot of player lost interest in it, is it because of korean being allowed or just got bored i don't know, but maybe trying something different could help us to understand the situation better ?
I've heard of a similar experience in the Yugioh community, where card shop owners would ban the top players due to them winning the tournaments all the time (maybe just a few tournaments, not all), giving the other players less incentive to participate if they didn't have a chance of winning. From a money standpoint for the card shop owner it makes sense, and of course in a free country a business owner should have the freedom to do business as they see fit. I don't think government has any right to tell a business owner they have to serve other ethnicities or groups for equality. I think the free market will dictate what happens to them naturally as their reputation will get around.
So likewise, if enough people are upset that the organizers are ostracizing some players due to them winning all the time, and if lower attendance comes as a result, they'll be forced to change their practices.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
Regardless of why, its not out of the question to say that we should have tournaments where red belts aren't competing v. the yellow belts.
I'll give you a hint, how do you want to learn about the things, if you dont know even know such things might exist? I'll give you a real example if it's too hard to understand. Some player talked to me and asked for advices, i answered to him and now his knowledge is greater, himself he could never learn that without asking, or maybe it would took him X period of time (weeks,months,years)
Also maybe some people would like to stop comparing BW to every other sport, discipline, shoes, bikes, shit?
Scan worked the hardest - Scan get's the cash. If you wanna punish players for working too hard go hold your tournament in Pyongyang you goddamn commies.
Moderation bans people for using "bad words" Why teamliquid admins dont ban retarded forum trolls, who post their bullshit in every topic, like this idiot above?
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
I don't care why, I am not the one who talk about Korean, I think the thread title is wrong, it should be called "Abusers" instead of "Korean". I pointed out the fact that because Scan knows he will always win those tourneys he could give a bit of space so that it would be more fun for the community as a whole (players and viewers). This is what I call having manners, which would also avoid thread like this or tournament named "Defiler Tour # 79Non-Korean", our next tourney btw.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
I don't care why, I am not the one who talk about Korean, I think the thread title is wrong, it should be called "Abusers" instead of "Korean". I pointed out the fact that because Scan knows he will always win those tourneys he could give a bit of space so that it would be more fun for the community as a whole (players and viewers). This is what I call having manners, which would also avoid thread like this or tournament named "Defiler Tour # 79Non-Korean", our next tourney btw.
Flash should avoid ASL so the Korean community as a whole would enjoy it more, rather than Flash just winning everything.
I don't see a problem with people who are better because they have spent more time and effort in getting better, entering and winning open tournaments. The analogy with the weekly d+ tournament is bogus, as the open tournaments Scan enters don't have a skill cap.
You see Kenzy, your topic is pointless, because u have the army of people here who gives example likes why a korean exprogamer is playing against other exprogamers, while they both raised in the same community, they both have similiar access to the source of knowledge, they can share their knowledge and opinions with the another thousand members of the same community or people thinking that the time and effort is just this ;-)
On June 14 2017 03:33 trutaCz wrote: Moderation bans people for using "bad words" Why teamliquid admins dont ban retarded forum trolls, who post their bullshit in every topic, like this idiot above?
Calm down, it was (I thought obviously) a joke. Actually I can understand both sides of the argument so I think it's best to have some tournaments open to all and some only for non-koreans. Which actually is the case atm with HAY and Filthy being open and defiler being closed.
Most importantly just respect admin/organizer decision and don't complain and bitch all the time. Sadly makes it impossible to cheer for some of the best foreigners, because of the embarrassing sportsmanship.
If you can't distinguish the critic from complaining it's your problem. I care about the rise of foreign community so i'm gonna criticize as long as i will see it's not going in the good way and i've been for enough time actively in this scene to know what factors decide about the growth of it.
To tell you the truth, top level Korean players don't really give advices. They learn from mistakes and compare their playstyle/b.o to someone else's. Everyone in the back day in ZvT, they start the gas @2:55, but then now they moved on to @2:40 because of Terran's optimization every next day. Pretty much sharing styles/builds. not advice.
PS: There's also like gas @3:05++ after making 8 lings for rush.
There are obviously valid arguments for both allowing and banning Koreans from tournaments. The solution is probably to have some tournaments that allow Koreans and some tournaments that forbid Koreans.
On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
I don't care why, I am not the one who talk about Korean, I think the thread title is wrong, it should be called "Abusers" instead of "Korean". I pointed out the fact that because Scan knows he will always win those tourneys he could give a bit of space so that it would be more fun for the community as a whole (players and viewers). This is what I call having manners, which would also avoid thread like this or tournament named "Defiler Tour # 79Non-Korean", our next tourney btw.
Flash should avoid ASL so the Korean community as a whole would enjoy it more, rather than Flash just winning everything.
Well styles,builds,advices - just generally knowledge. You told me some of these, and i probably couldnt learn about them from anyone else. For example most of koreans have solid mechanics, while most of foreigners have poor mechanics. It doesnt come from the fact that korean players were born with talent to have the solid mechanics in broodwar or the otherwise. It comes from the access to the source, what elements are needed and how to execute them to have solid mechanics.
Having read the discussion thus far my 2 cents to the following questions and the topic in general:
1. Should Koreans be banned from participating in tournaments? Pros: + Higher participation and viewership in tournaments (based on our past experience) + Less complaints from certain players and viewers + More recognizable winners
Cons: - Racism (goes both ways) - Competition is a farce - Further segregates BW communities - Skill level drop
2. Does Scan count as a 'Korean'? + He is a Korean national + He speaks Korean + He has lived in Korea - He is not residing in Korea - He speaks English - He participates in the 'foreign' community and provides guides and advice in English (unlike every other Korean) --------------------------------
Regionalism and restrictions are a part of sports used to enhance grassroots growth and rising levels of competition (example Football, you have: Local amateur football intra-national club football (premier league, bundesliga etc.) international club football (championsleague etc.) international football by region (America Cup, Euro Cup etc.) world championships (ConFed Cup, World Cup) As such having a regional or national restriction in place is not out of the ordinary.
BW is of course not in any shape as organized as football, nor do geographical regions make much sense but bear with me: Local (low ranks) leagues (CPL, Rookie TL, D-C Rank tour) intra-national events (Polish Tournaments, German King of the Hill.. Afreeca Starleague) international clans (Gambit Cup or ICCup Clan League) international competition by region (Teamliquid Legacy Starleague as excluding Korea is regionalism) world championships (Filthy Cup, Defiler Tours, World Cyber Games)
Now interestingly enough just like in football there are some questions to which tournament level has the highest skill. In football many people argue that the European Club Football Championsleague has the highest skill (over that of the World Cup for example), much as most of us would argue that the Afreeca Starleague has the highest skill (over say Filthy Cup). So skill does not have to rise with breadth of competition.
1. Thus there is no issue with banning Koreans from tournaments.
2. Personally I enjoy the format the Chinese have used for some of their tournaments (It would also be interesting to see how 'foreigners' reacted if China solved its lag firewall and Chinese players started dominating the 'foreign' scene).
What the Chinese have done is to seed very high level Koreans to late tournament stages to have their own best play against (sometimes with handicaps). Similarly you could resolve the issue of Scan by having the winner of a tournament do a special finals set vs Scan (prizepool for first place can be split 50/50 between the two, or non-Scan takes all if wins). This way you will still know how good the best 'foreigner' is in relation to a very good Korean. This stops punishing Scan specifically (as he is a contributor to our scene) while keeping the competition and participation high.
I enjoy seeing Scan kick all the foreign asses. I go into foreigner streams and enjoy figuring out why they don't improve and get closer to level like Scan's. It's not the language barrier. It's not the ability to practice in a "progamer house", or find good practice partners. It's like 95% bad attitude. Foreigners are lazy and make excuses that prevent them improving.
The solution to improving their skill can stare them in the face on stream, and a foreigner will flatly deny it in favor of stroking their ego. I like seeing Scan win because he deserves to win. He works harder (at least on stream) and is the better player.
Just my own personal observations and very biased opinions.
Edit: On this note, I find games where Scan destroys foreigners to by some of the *the most* educational games. It is rare to find a highly skilled player utterly smack down a fairly good player in royal fashion. These kinds of games can give hints as to just how certain builds are superior to others, or just how certain mechanics are important for overpowering the opponent.
Wanting to, or discussing the banning of Scan is just another one of these hints. It's a hint to the bad attitude I was talking about earlier. Instead of taking his interactions with the foreign community as yet another learning opportunity, foreigners opt to consider every other path of less resistance. It's shameful.
On June 14 2017 03:52 LaStScan wrote: To tell you the truth, top level Korean players don't really give advices. They learn from mistakes and compare their playstyle/b.o to someone else's. Everyone in the back day in ZvT, they start the gas @2:55, but then now they moved on to @2:40 because of Terran's optimization every next day. Pretty much sharing styles/builds. not advice.
PS: There's also like gas @3:05++ after making 8 lings for rush.
Now that level of knowledge detail is, what we mortals would never be able acquire by any means. Personally I`m nor with nor against excluding Koreans, but I`d welcome the decision excluding people with serious lag issues.
This is difference between top foreigner players and top mid tier class or low top class korean players. You can put the name of Bishop, Baskin1, 9mutal, yangachi and plenty of others
I want you to tell the story about conquerors and conquered.
Im oldschool terran from dinosaur's period who were playing Broodwar WCG tournaments at very high competiting level those days. I had a goal to win a ticket to the wcg grand finals. But finished last one with 1-2 with A2 TvT which i think cost me the ticket to Los Angeles (link) (Pomi was defeated badly at group stage, and i was very sure i can repeat that easily). I ended up groups stage with confident to win on top #1 really, but things gone wrong on the second day. I remember that competitive spirit in there, extingushing but still competitive spirit and that was the main thing why im still here. I also remember those days when i join tourney and got knocked out first round, but i was grateful to play and always get something from lose.
Times goes by and i don't have such goals as win ASL or something but i still like this game. I guess this game will be with me whole my life, just like those grandparents community playing Go at one of the Seoul's park i visited this year. That was amazing. They just enjoyed by playing it. They compete, laugh, lose and win.
Life goals changing. But why do YOU still playing it? Competing? No problem. Make a goal and practice. Don't wanna waste your time? Sorry, but i don't remember time in history when getting win was easy. Koreans too good? They have good infrastructure? Good for them so. You can't beat them? Its only your problem, know your rank so. Don't want to lose everytime? Don't accept the battle so.
You may think that im telling you primitive words. But the saddest thing is i don't see sportsmanship these days since we discussing such things. You are trying to solve organizer's problem as a player, or viewer's problem as a player. Let all think by ourselves.
Let the organizer decide who is gonna play in each tourney. Let the viewer decide what they gonna watch. Let the player decide where they gonna play.
Why do players like Miso, Rush, Sharp, Shuttle play in tournaments when the greats like Flash, Last are playing in them if they know they have no chance of winning? :thinking:
No, you don't ban koreans like Scan because you can't beat them. That by itself should give you more motivation to get better.
Many players didnt accept the battle. Many viewers decided not to watch and tune in
Are you happy about that? I am not.
I don't understand what problem do you trying to solve by telling me those statements. Can you organize tourney in the same time as filthy and get more players by banning koreans? I doubt so Your logic seems broken for me. Or you mean something different?
On June 14 2017 04:41 iFU.spx wrote: Hello fellas.
I want you to tell the story about conquerors and conquered.
Im oldschool terran from dinosaur's period who were playing Broodwar WCG tournaments at very high competiting level those days. I had a goal to win a ticket to the wcg grand finals. But finished last one with 1-2 with A2 TvT which i think cost me the ticket to Los Angeles (link) (Pomi was defeated badly at group stage, and i was very sure i can repeat that easily). I ended up groups stage with confident to win on top #1 really, but things gone wrong on the second day. I remember that competitive spirit in there, extingushing but still competitive spirit and that was the main thing why im still here. I also remember those days when i join tourney and got knocked out first round, but i was grateful to play and always get something from lose.
Times goes by and i don't have such goals as win ASL or something but i still like this game. I guess this game will be with me whole my life, just like those grandparents community playing Go at one of the Seoul's park i visited this year. That was amazing. They just enjoyed by playing it. They compete, laugh, lose and win.
Life goals changing. But why do YOU still playing it? Competing? No problem. Make a goal and practice. Don't wanna waste your time? Sorry, but i don't remember time in history when getting win was easy. Koreans too good? They have good infrastructure? Good for them so. You can't beat them? Its only your problem, know your rank so. Don't want to lose everytime? Don't accept the battle so.
You may think that im telling you primitive words. But the saddest thing is i don't see sportsmanship these days since we discussing such things. You are trying to solve organizer's problem as a player, or viewer's problem as a player. Let all think by ourselves.
Let the organizer decide who is gonna play in each tourney. Let the viewer decide what they gonna watch. Let the player decide where they gonna play.
Let's get respect.
Hope you got the message.
spot on
I wish the community would support their content producer instead of downplaying their involvement into the scene. People like Scan and the filthy cups organiser enrich everyones experience and profit to everyone yet it is welcome with much negativity. Nobody is paying their tuition college or funding their progaming career out of 75$ weekly tourney but it can help growing the scene and the community and yet people focus on wether koreans should be banned based on em being better out of having practiced harder and longer than others.
in the end people gets what they ask for, so its up to you to decide what do you want for brood war outside of korea.
Many players didnt accept the battle. Many viewers decided not to watch and tune in
Are you happy about that? I am not.
I don't understand what problem do you trying to solve by telling me those statements. Can you organize tourney in the same time as filthy and get more players by banning koreans? I doubt so Your logic seems broken for me. Or you mean something different?
You got this wrong, problem is not to be better. It's to help foreign community growing. There are less and less players in those tournaments. Last time there were 8players... 8 players for 100$, even in iccup tourney with nothing to win just rushed 1hour before the check in can get more players in it. So what we wonder is, those tournament really help foreign community ? I don't think so. Since it's not to see the best players because if it was the case juste watch ASL or youtube channel from pros, why do we keep doing something that might be hurting the scene ?
I don't understand why none of you discussed about making 8tournaments with 10$ for winner and an invite to the "super tournament' with all winner and with a bigger prize ? Scan gonna play only in one tournaments, then win the 'super tournament' and everyone gonna be happy, don't you think ?
This is difference between top foreigner players and top mid tier class or low top class korean players. You can put the name of Bishop, Baskin1, 9mutal, yangachi and plenty of others
all the mentions above are not just as good as scan, i woud like to see scan playing other korean players not foreigners.
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
This is difference between top foreigner players and top mid tier class or low top class korean players. You can put the name of Bishop, Baskin1, 9mutal, yangachi and plenty of others
all the mentions above are not just as good as scan, i woud like to see scan playing other korean players not foreigners.
Agreed. All of the European players listed above are not on the same level as Scan. Some of the Zerg players listed above have a low economy, cheesy style. That style doesn't do too well vs Scan (His mechanics are way better than yours, his decision making is way better than yours and his game knowledge is way better than yours) If your response is, "I have to play a cheesy, all in style to have a chance to beat Scan"... then that means you just can't beat him in a standard game consistently and need to practice more.
If we are being honest, the discussion point is not "should we ban Koreans". The answer is that is an obvious no. Banning Koreans, because they are Korean is not logically defensible in any manner, and there is no precedence for it in any sport or activity.
The question clearly is; should we attempt to set a skill cap for our tournaments. This, on the other hand, their is plenty of precedence for. Many sports and activities routinely divide competitions by skill level. Pro's cannot compete with amateurs. Players are separated by ELO. Tennis leagues have categories based on skill level (i.e, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, etc). Cycling has categories in which you race.
If people want to make the argument that organizers should be encouraged to set skill limitations on BW tourneys, I think that's a reasonable discussion to have.
On June 14 2017 03:26 trutaCz wrote: I'll give you a hint, how do you want to learn about the things, if you dont know even know such things might exist? I'll give you a real example if it's too hard to understand. Some player talked to me and asked for advices, i answered to him and now his knowledge is greater, himself he could never learn that without asking, or maybe it would took him X period of time (weeks,months,years)
Also maybe some people would like to stop comparing BW to every other sport, discipline, shoes, bikes, shit?
What would you compare esports to if not sports?
I think the relationship between the Korean BW scene and the foreign BW scene, if the two decided to partner up to create events would very much resemble an expansion draft in a pro sports league.
Take the NHL for example, in 1967, the league expanded from 6 teams to 12. The 6 expansion teams don't have the players, they don't have the facilities or the financing that the other 6 teams have. The first championship victory from an expansion team came 7 years later. At first, they were put into separate conferences in order to keep the season games competitive, one side consistently got crushed in the finals / playoffs (starting in 1971, the playoff bracket was mixed).
1) There is no incentive for Korean BW to "expand" to accommodate the International scene 2) Even if players were dedicated enough today without much financial backing, it would take years (possibly close to a decade) and a new generation of players in order for the International scene to become competitive
I think everyone wants one BW scene, not Foreigners and Koreans, but that's just not a possibility without adequate funding (which comes down to viewership).
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread.
On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread.
Can you tell me where you saw a bad attitude from me ?
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them.
There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition.
Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners.
On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread.
Can you tell me where you saw a bad attitude from me ?
Well in the OP it looks like the post tries to talk about "banning koreans", but is really dancing around the idea of banning Scan. It sounds sneaky. That looks like a bad attitude.
There are a ton of good points being made here, especially that this all ultimately boils down to a tournament director decision. There seems to be a lot of toxicity in this community (see the Where is Moletrap now? thread).
I think the best compromise would be something like what others are suggesting...maybe run a weekly cup series for 5 weeks. The first 4 weeks are qualifiers and the 5th is a 4-player tournament for the winners only (maybe even double elimination, then competing for second place isn't just seeing who gets matched against Scan last). That way we get an opportunity to see players like Scan play the best foreigners, but we also get a good chance to see the best foreigners play against each other in some finals matches.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
No I don't think money is the issue. The issue really seems to be validation and reputation/winning. That's really the only remaining thing I can think of as to why someone would not want to play versus Scan or any other play significantly beyond their skill level. From a fun standpoint, playing BW is fun win or lose, and there are still many close games to be played in any tournament. Playing against higher skill is obviously great for learning and becoming a better player.
We've already noted money isn't really a big issue.
That leaves only "not wanting to lose" as a reason for not wanting to play against players at a significant level beyond ones own.
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them.
There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition.
Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners.
Your comparison doesn't work, running is fine outside Kenyan, there plenty of runners. That's not the case for BW, I know life isn't fair, i wouldn't care scan playing in our tournaments if we had plenty of them and plenty of players but that's not the case. And instead there are less and less players in those 2 tournaments, i'm trying to help them finding a solution, i don't care Scan has an advantage, i don't care i'm not gonna have the money, but i care about the community.
The players you are calling whiner, bitchs are the only one registring and playing in those tournaments, even if it's not even fun for them but just to keep it alive. And when we come with arguments to help them having more players you are all insulting them i seriously don't get it. Sometimes it's hard to be part of this community....
On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread.
Can you tell me where you saw a bad attitude from me ?
I can't say specifically about you, but one of the other players have recently DQ'd himself as soon as he realized that he was facing against Scan during the tournament (and have explicitly said so). Then there's always this constant complaints about allowing or banning certain players (Scan, in this case), and this isn't exclusive to any recent tournaments, it dates back to 2011 when people were discussing whether to allow Scan to participate in ISL, then moving the discussion to ban Sziky from ISL.
It doesn't help when others have presented a counter-argument or a different opinion than ones presented, you guys respond with "oh they're the obvious trolls" or "they don't know what they're talking about because they don't even participate in these tournaments". If you're just going to shut out any voice that doesn't favor you and just mark them as trolls, why should I believe that you're trying to discuss things in constructive manner? This is why others are seeing this as huge whining fest.
P.S. Second point ("people saying things without playing in tournaments") may be right, but just because they don't participate in the tournaments doesn't mean that they're all speaking out of their ass (for myself, my analysis of the foreigner mindset comes from hours of talking with several former KeSPA players as well as coaches/team managers, including someone who managed a foreign player and had a lengthy discussion on that back in 2010).
P.S.S. Growing the scene is always good, but do realize you're one of the 'top' foreigners representing the scene right now. And also, do realize that I'm speaking directly from my mind because I want to see someone go toe-to-toe with Scan. But with everyone just having the mindset of "Oh, if I play against Scan, then I'll lose for sure", why should I even cheefor the foreigners with such mindset when Scan tries hard to participate and win every match that is presented to him?
Point being said, the solutions presented in this thread is a nice start. With SC:R coming up with different tiers, just like SC2, it'll be easier to create tournaments based on skill bracket using ladder as the starting point.
You got this wrong, problem is not to be better. It's to help foreign community growing.
That what i am telling to you. Just make a tourney like you want. Don't try to tell someone how they should do it. It won't help. It's not your goal as a player.
Make restriction to D-B Fish rank only. Or make it free for all. Its up to you as an organizer.
To grow community is what blizzard is doing now by making remastered. Just wait or help to improve infrastructure of remastered like TT1 is doing.
Yes its our goal as a experienced players who have been in this community for years to criticise if its needed and give hints and explaining things if something is going wrong. It doesnt hurt you that korean scene is alive and our sucks but maybe it hurts some of us. If u just wanna sit and wait, dont tell others to watch how its getting more poor. Blizzard is doing what they doing because its business, how they were taking care of bw in past few years?
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Ok! Host seasonal tournaments without money. 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. Do some a little bit of interviews from each players for audiences and talk about goals
On June 14 2017 06:07 trutaCz wrote: Yes its our goal as a experienced players who have been in this community for years to criticise if its needed and give hints and explaining things if something is going wrong. It doesnt hurt you that korean scene is alive and our sucks but maybe it hurts some of us. If u just wanna sit and wait, dont tell others to watch how its getting more poor.
So you are trying to say, that those two guys filthy and schamtoo have to change rules to fit your desires or just back off?
So if i understood well you think that hosting free for all tournament is hurting foreigner BW scene? :D
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Ok! Host seasonal tournaments without money. 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. Do some a little bit of interviews from each players for audiences and talk about goals
I don't get it, you are asking me to organize tournaments ? What's the reasoning ?
Besides, how many foreigners are there who can compete with the likes of eonzerg and trutacz.
Are there a lot of players that don't compete at filthy right now that are of equal skill to eonzerg and trutacz but don't participate because of scan? If all the players that apparently don't play because of scan would lose to eonzerg and trutacz as well, why should they join only because scan isn't allowed?
On June 14 2017 06:07 trutaCz wrote: Yes its our goal as a experienced players who have been in this community for years to criticise if its needed and give hints and explaining things if something is going wrong. It doesnt hurt you that korean scene is alive and our sucks but maybe it hurts some of us. If u just wanna sit and wait, dont tell others to watch how its getting more poor.
So you are trying to say, that those two guys filthy and schamtoo have to change rules to fit your desires or just back off?
So if i understood well you think that hosting free for all tournament is hurting foreigner BW scene? :D
Do you even read what we wrote ? There are less and less players in those tournaments, 8 players in the last one. And in those tournaments the only one playing are us, the one complaining about those tournaments.
ONCE AGAIN we are not asking for a ban but maybe a compromise to attract more people, if we continue like this there will be 2 players in 3weeks in those tournaments, is that what you want ? It seems no, so find a solution to attract people, if for you the solution is to keep what we are doing and having less and less player then you are not really smart.
If this thread gets derailed and posters start insulting each other, it's going to get closed and warnings/bans will be handed out. In other words, please express your points well and play nice please. We all want to find a good solution to this but there's no guarantee that there is one that will satisfy everyone either.
On June 14 2017 06:17 Keniji wrote: Besides, how many foreigners are there who can compete with the likes of eonzerg and trutacz.
Are there a lot of players that don't compete at filthy right now that are of equal skill to eonzerg and trutacz but don't participate because of scan? If all the players that apparently don't play because of scan would lose to eonzerg and trutacz as well, why should they join only because scan isn't allowed?
From what i know, tournaments are/was (before 1.18) made almost everyday and got "easily" 8people in it without any prize or some ladder points. Now we have a real tournaments with a "big" prize money (for a bw tournaments) and we can hardly have 10 players. I wonder why and looking for solution, or soon we won't even have 8 players in it and what's gonna happen ?
On June 14 2017 06:15 trutaCz wrote: 95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again.
So what banning Scan will change? Still nobody will beat guys like bonyth, eon or you. So there will still be just a handful of top foreigners playing each other and not a single fucking thing will change. Community won't grow shit. The only difference is that you will be "the best". And don't tell me that rest of players stopped playing just because of Scan.
Using this logic I would like to ban all top foreigners so I also can win some tournaments. Let the community grow!
You can clearly see that this logic is stupid, and banning anyone is not going to help the scene grow. It will only divide the scene further. There is a ton of other stuff you guys can do to help the community. Something like translation thread, some guides, maybe tournaments, or just improve your game and beat Scan - that would be something.
On June 14 2017 06:17 Keniji wrote: Besides, how many foreigners are there who can compete with the likes of eonzerg and trutacz.
Are there a lot of players that don't compete at filthy right now that are of equal skill to eonzerg and trutacz but don't participate because of scan? If all the players that apparently don't play because of scan would lose to eonzerg and trutacz as well, why should they join only because scan isn't allowed?
From what i know, tournaments are/was (before 1.18) made almost everyday and got "easily" 8people in it without any prize or some ladder points. Now we have a real tournaments with a "big" prize money (for a bw tournaments) and we can hardly have 10 players. I wonder why and looking for solution, or soon we won't even have 8 players in it and what's gonna happen ?
In my opinion, we should just let the organizers decide what they want to do with their tournaments. If they invest their time and money on it, they have the right to have the final word on who they want to accept in it and how they want to organise it, and once their decision is made it is not our place to criticize it... As for the players, they decide if they want to join or not.
I don't see how the tournaments that they hosted could be hurting the foreign bw community...... MAYBE they are not as "developing the bw community" as you would wish them to, BUT they are still better than no tournaments at all?
On June 14 2017 06:15 trutaCz wrote: 95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again.
So what banning Scan will change? Still nobody will beat guys like bonyth, eon or you. So there will still be just a handful of top foreigners playing each other and not a single fucking thing will change. Community won't grow shit. The only difference is that you will be "the best". And don't tell me that rest of players stopped playing just because of Scan.
Using this logic I would like to ban all top foreigners so I also can win some tournaments. Let the community grow!
You can clearly see that this logic is stupid, and banning anyone is not going to help the scene grow. It will only divide the scene further. There is a ton of other stuff you guys can do to help the community. Something like translation thread, some guides, maybe tournaments, or just improve your game and beat Scan - that would be something.
Idk where i wrote to ban Scan, but yeah people cant read. How can you know who and why is not playing/stopped playing this tour if your are not common with what is going on? If you want to test it out go ask people one by one why they are not playing. I think i've done something to community by streaming my games, show my games in tournaments, helping others, sometime hosting and helping with tours, sharing replays.
Tournaments cant hurt the community by definition. They can raise up it, but it is not working. Tournament organizers most likely also host them for some reason, purpose.
On June 14 2017 06:15 trutaCz wrote: 95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again.
So what banning Scan will change? Still nobody will beat guys like bonyth, eon or you. So there will still be just a handful of top foreigners playing each other and not a single fucking thing will change. Community won't grow shit. The only difference is that you will be "the best". And don't tell me that rest of players stopped playing just because of Scan.
Using this logic I would like to ban all top foreigners so I also can win some tournaments. Let the community grow!
You can clearly see that this logic is stupid, and banning anyone is not going to help the scene grow. It will only divide the scene further. There is a ton of other stuff you guys can do to help the community. Something like translation thread, some guides, maybe tournaments, or just improve your game and beat Scan - that would be something.
You right, but then why iccup tournaments without money and without being scheduled can easily have 8 players in it ?
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
I will DQ every possible time i will meet scan or equal level korean player in a tourney. Nothing personal. Nothing racial. Just a waste of time. I understand my potential level of skill. Comparing my free time to spend for bw practicing and amount of good practice partners i understand i WILL never be able to beat a next class player - like scan etc. In some time may be i can fairly battle eon, bonyth and so on. But korean amateurs spend waaaaay tooo more time for practicing.
But still let organizers choose. For best of foreigners to beat a korean amateur is a good challenge. For other foreigners to compete for a prize with amount of same skill level players is a good rivalry. Both can coexist.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Ok! Host seasonal tournaments without money. 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. Do some a little bit of interviews from each players for audiences and talk about goals
I don't get it, you are asking me to organize tournaments ? What's the reasoning ?
I gave you some help how to grow foreign BW community. I never said you should be the one organizing the tournaments. Find someone who can organize tournaments like my idea.
PS: You stated that players don't care about money. So, I will assume you guys want a "TITLE."
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Fair enough. Maybe not all are a level above you anymore but the point still stands in my opinion. Any FAT player is still the underdog against any of the Koreans in the lineup. So they shouldn't be hypocrits.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Fair enough. Maybe not all are a level above you anymore but the point still stands in my opinion. Any FAT player is still the underdog against any of the Koreans in the lineup. So they shouldn't be hypocrits.
Go on, write down how am i being hypocrite, wanting foreign scene to grow not to die. I'm listening. If people write some things which are not true about koreans and foreigners, skill gap and other things related to it, im gonna point them out, because they dont know about what they are writing.
Because teamliquid is not the place where all broodwar community is situated lol.
I don't see the problem of lacking players or viewers. Can you bring exact primer? If you say filthycup so i can answer in that post: 1. Very bad time to play. Its good for casters and not for players. 2. Bad promotion. No one knows about it on iccup or defiler.ru.
I see your point (and also, it s nice to see you here again ) but I agree with the people saying the organisers should decide.
But may be some local tournaments (EU only, eu+NA only) once in a while, or in a cup format alongside the other tournaments would be good too.
We have to wait for the release of SC:R though, there might be enough players for clan leagues and this kind of things to restart. Scan has done a lot for the community so I find it unfair to ban him from everything.
On June 14 2017 06:52 iFU.spx wrote: Because teamliquid is not the place where all broodwar community is situated lol.
I don't see the problem of lacking players or viewers. Can you bring exact primer? If you say filthycup so i can answer in that post: 1. Very bad time to play. Its good for casters and not for players. 2. Bad promotion. No one knows about it on iccup or defiler.ru.
tbh I think this is the biggest reason why Filthy and my tournaments are failing. Also, ICCUP is a very small player base now. We're moving to 1.18.
We have many problems with our tournaments, I do not think Scan being in them is as much a problem as everyone seems to think.
Also, this thread is odd. First, it sounds racist as hell (I'm just thinking about if someone brand new walked into TL and saw this as the first thread, hell even with context it's still racist). "Semi-Pro/Pro Players" would be more appropriate since it's not being Korean, its having access to the esport development that the country of Korea has. Coaches, players, etc. Secondly, in our tournaments SonStar, a player from Korea, played a bunch, won only one tournament, and then stopped playing. He's not too far behind Scan in qualifying for ASL.
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them.
There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition.
Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners.
Your comparison doesn't work, running is fine outside Kenyan, there plenty of runners. That's not the case for BW, I know life isn't fair, i wouldn't care scan playing in our tournaments if we had plenty of them and plenty of players but that's not the case. And instead there are less and less players in those 2 tournaments, i'm trying to help them finding a solution, i don't care Scan has an advantage, i don't care i'm not gonna have the money, but i care about the community.
The players you are calling whiner, bitchs are the only one registring and playing in those tournaments, even if it's not even fun for them but just to keep it alive. And when we come with arguments to help them having more players you are all insulting them i seriously don't get it. Sometimes it's hard to be part of this community....
I most certainly did not call anyone a whiner, nor did I insult anyone. Calling someone a whiner is utterly unhelpful to moving a topic forward and serves only to anger people. Discussions are always better and more meaningful when the relevant issues have been clearly defined and understood, which is what I'm working to do.
A very logical path to take would be:
1) Define the problem - In this case it's pretty clear, concerns about players that are too good. As I explained before, it's not a problem with koreans, not is it a problem with koreans who are too good. It's players who are too good. Admittedly, that's only koreans at the moment, but it could always change
2) Define why it's a problem - Most people are stating it isn't about the money, though all else equal I'm sure no one minds making a few extra dollars.
As alluded to, the main issue then seems to be that playing against players of too high skill level results in lowered activity, because losing too much is discouraging, This, as near as I can tell, seems to be the problem with players that are "too good". If you think there is a different reason as to why players that are too strong is affecting attendance feel free to throw it out there.
3) Discuss solutions - At this point we have established that it's a problem when players that are too far above a given skill level play because many players find losing quickly in games where they feel they don't have a chance to win to be overly unpleasant and sapping the fun.
Knowing that, we can discuss possible solutions, not to advocate these but to put down examples of possible solutions you'd have things like
a) Increase the number of tournaments with a capped skill level, i.e. Max C rank on fish. b) Change the format such that anyone above C can play, but only at the very end as a "final boss" c) Host series/regional tours d) Allow B ranked players to play, but they must offrace x out of y games e) etc.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
yeh but those ajaes beat icarus..... its not like you're going to play them on fs/circuit. You're gonna play on diff maps and get owned by their superior knwoledfe gained fron their pro teams
@shinokuki uh, i played many other maps. even helped many amateurs to get semipro for careers in the back day. I'm not Icarus. He dodges TvT and under my level..
I am a frequent viewer at Filthy/Have at you tournaments. I would strongly prefer foreigner only tourneys, because now it's just not fun. There is no drama, no rivalries, and it is a big part of any sport. I usually only watch interesting foreigners matches. Liked multiple eon vs trutacz, dewalt vs bonyth series, but fighting for 2nd/4th place just not the same like fighting for championship.
That being said I don't have anything against Scan, he is a great player and nice person.
Imo its up to the one who created the tournament. That said i do think scan is taking advantage for some easy monies playing in foreign tournaments. I wouldnt do that personally
Well, first of all. Let's be entirely honest about what we are talking about here.
It is not about banning koreans or not, that would be incredibly racist. What we are discussing is actually banning Scan for being good. Scan is a foreigner in starcraft, as a "korean" in starcraft is a pro player or a former pro player. idrA, NoNy, ret, elky, legionnaire etc are more "korean" in a sense than lastscan, as they actually lived in a pro team environment with the best of the best. Scan only knows korean, he came into the game AFTER the pro scene was gone.
So him being korean is irrelevant. Yes he understands korean and can understand what the streamers say, and play on fish with low ping. Its not really relevant, other foreign players have had this advantage in the past. Maybe people wanted to ban idrA back when he had been in korea, I don't know. But I doubt it was a discussion that was ever taken seriously.
So we can then stop talking about banning koreans, because thats not what the issue is. The issue is actually banning one specific player for being too good compared to the rest of the field. That is the discussion we are having. So lets stop confusing ourselves here.
Is it right to ban a player for being too good? I don't think it is. It is not only unfair to the player in question, but it is also competitively dishonest and lowers the quality of the games and storylines for the foreign scene. I think it is absurd how the foreign scene wants to push away its best player. Instead of taking him to our chest and learning from him, forcing players to adapt to a higher level of play, we want to push him away so the old timers who are on the top of the non-scan foreign scene can have their time in the sun?
Because that is basically what this is about. The best players in the foreign community that isn't named scan are those who have played the longest and most dedicated in a scene that has been barely existing the last 7 years. In any active games, these players would be pushed off a long time ago. They have full time jobs, they have no hunger to become the best, they are satisfied with their current level of play, but enjoy their positions at the top of the hill. When a hungry, young guy with the adavantages of lots of spare time, a hunger to become the best, a fleshed out meta, a deep library of streams, VODs, guides etc at his disposal comes in and mops the floor with everyone, that feels bad. But that is simply the reality.
No honest competitor would want to ban someone simply because they are too good. Would you want to ban flash from ASL because he is winning too much? I'm sure the ASL guys are tired of losing to him time and time again.
The foreign scene gains nothing by banning Scan. It is much more exciting seeing if a new prospect can take a game off of scan than the coinflip of which zerg will win the next tournament. The foreigner scene gains a ton by taking Scan to its heart. How popular the tournaments are have nothing to do with Scan, if anything they benefit from having Scan playing, because us viewers actually want to have the highest level of play on display, not some boys club inhouse tournament between the best zergs outside of korea.
On June 14 2017 08:12 krooked wrote: So him being korean is irrelevant. Yes he understands korean and can understand what the streamers say, and play on fish with low ping. Its not really relevant, other foreign players have had this advantage in the past. Maybe people wanted to ban idrA back when he had been in korea, I don't know. But I doubt it was a discussion that was ever taken seriously.
This actually did occur when TSL2 took place. I'm not sure if the TL people running the event actually seriously debated banning Idra but there was a lot of discussion about it here, since he had been winning a lot of events before that and was starting to show significant improvement after being in Korea for a while. Of course that situation is different than this since his job was literally to play BW, while here (I barely know anything about this guy or the current scene so correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't seem that Scan plays the game for a living but rather on the side.
Another note, it's interesting to see people consider a ban of Korean players as "racist". IIRC TSL and TSL2 had a rule banning Korean players, with exceptions for those that were living outside of Korea at the time (like that one Zerg player who was in the US when TSL2 started, w/e his name was). It used to be that the Korean scene was its own and the foreigner scene was its own and they didn't really clash too often. I'm not sure how things have changed in recent years.
If we were to have a TSL5 on Remastered (one a million chance, I know ), who knows if they would use the same ruleset. But I think it is worth pointing out that this is how it used to be at least.
On June 14 2017 08:12 krooked wrote: So him being korean is irrelevant. Yes he understands korean and can understand what the streamers say, and play on fish with low ping. Its not really relevant, other foreign players have had this advantage in the past. Maybe people wanted to ban idrA back when he had been in korea, I don't know. But I doubt it was a discussion that was ever taken seriously.
This actually did occur when TSL2 took place. I'm not sure if the TL people running the event actually seriously debated banning Idra but there was a lot of discussion about it here, since he had been winning a lot of events before that and was starting to show significant improvement after being in Korea for a while. Of course that situation is different than this since his job was literally to play BW, while here (I barely know anything about this guy or the current scene so correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't seem that Scan plays the game for a living but rather on the side.
Another note, it's interesting to see people consider a ban of Korean players as "racist". IIRC TSL and TSL2 had a rule banning Korean players, with exceptions for those that were living outside of Korea at the time (like that one Zerg player who was in the US when TSL2 started, w/e his name was). It used to be that the Korean scene was its own and the foreigner scene was its own and they didn't really clash too often. I'm not sure how things have changed in recent years.
If we were to have a TSL5 on Remastered (one a million chance, I know ), who knows if they would use the same ruleset. But I think it is worth pointing out that this is how it used to be at least.
The reason it would be racist in this instance is that if you believe Koreans are somehow magically better now that there isn't even a pro scene over there, you must believe that Koreans have an unfair advantage due to their race. Because being a foreigner vs being a korean when learning starcraft in 2017 is the same, Koreans does not have the advantage of pro team houses, or professional starcraft play being a legitimate career option like it was back in the day.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Yeah, they are so all bad right now, that they did not qualify for ASL3.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Yeah, they are so all bad right now, that they did not qualify for ASL3.
What Scan was saying was that they aren't as good as they were in their prime, not that they are terrible lol.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Yeah, they are so all bad right now, that they did not qualify for ASL3.
What Scan was saying was that they aren't as good as they were in their prime, not that they are terrible lol.
Oh, thanks for clarification, I mistakenly considered, that Scan disagreed about ajae players being better than him in 2017.
On June 14 2017 08:12 krooked wrote: So him being korean is irrelevant. Yes he understands korean and can understand what the streamers say, and play on fish with low ping. Its not really relevant, other foreign players have had this advantage in the past. Maybe people wanted to ban idrA back when he had been in korea, I don't know. But I doubt it was a discussion that was ever taken seriously.
This actually did occur when TSL2 took place. I'm not sure if the TL people running the event actually seriously debated banning Idra but there was a lot of discussion about it here, since he had been winning a lot of events before that and was starting to show significant improvement after being in Korea for a while. Of course that situation is different than this since his job was literally to play BW, while here (I barely know anything about this guy or the current scene so correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't seem that Scan plays the game for a living but rather on the side.
Another note, it's interesting to see people consider a ban of Korean players as "racist". IIRC TSL and TSL2 had a rule banning Korean players, with exceptions for those that were living outside of Korea at the time (like that one Zerg player who was in the US when TSL2 started, w/e his name was). It used to be that the Korean scene was its own and the foreigner scene was its own and they didn't really clash too often. I'm not sure how things have changed in recent years.
If we were to have a TSL5 on Remastered (one a million chance, I know ), who knows if they would use the same ruleset. But I think it is worth pointing out that this is how it used to be at least.
Nongminzerg is MAMAMU on fish server. He's Dream.T Clan. He resided in the US just like my case, then moved back to Korea. After that, he started to attend in one of the HongKong Universities in HK. His name is 김진형(BJ예림 Yerim for stream)
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Yeah, they are so all bad right now, that they did not qualify for ASL3.
What Scan was saying was that they aren't as good as they were in their prime, not that they are terrible lol.
Oh, thanks for clarification, I mistakenly considered, that Scan disagreed about ajae players being better than him in 2017.
I do disagree that some ajae players are not better than me in 2017. I do respect their careers and high skill at their prime. The reason why I say this statement is I'm sure that I surpassed them.
1) Morale. There were series of tournaments on old maps not so long ago "Old farts tournament" with some money to win. It happened to me to win 2 of them in a row. After that I had many thoughts of not joining the next one, to let other people fight for the title. The organiser may confirm, I asked him: "is it okay if i play in your tournament next time"? If i was on Scan's place, and saw so big discussion going on, I would definitely not play in all the tournaments. I would state to everyone, that I'm going to play every 2nd tournament, which would end the circle of hatred. I ask myself what are Scan's thoughts about it. He could end this hatred with a simple compromise, yet he chooses not to.
2) Entertainment for viewers. We have two sides here. One wants to watch foreigners compete against Scan. The other wants to see close, exciting games. No point arguing here. Everyone likes what he likes, there is no point trying to convince anyone in this area.
I'd also like to adress people who said that 'u can learn korean, u can buy better internet'. Let me rephrease what u said. Okay, I can learn korean, would cost me some, but I could do it. To buy a better internet, I would need to buy a new house with access to such internet and even then the ping wouldnt be satisfying simply because I live so far from Korea. I'd have to move to Korea. In other words, u're saying that in order to get better I actually need to essentialy become Korean :D Easily accessable with thousands of dollars to spend, which unfortunately I don't have.
The sad part about this is that there are 2 sides that could easily end this discussion: Scan and Organizers. It requires 1 step back to take to fix everything. And that's a hard thing to do. Not many people are capable of admitting they were wrong. Very often once they choose the path, they stay on it. I want u to imagine the scenario where Scan signs for every 2nd tour. There are no hatefull speeches. Every side feels satisfied. Casters enjoy what they do, so do sponsors, because they receive nothing but positive feedback. Players can both win the title and fight against the best. Viewers can both watch exciting matches between foreigners and the David against Goliath. Everything is in harmony... Damn I'm almost crying because the game we love so much is yet again on a fall, because we discourage Filthy, Schamtoo and other potential sponors from hosting other tournaments. We need to help it rise, people! Not weaken it!
And let me tell u one more thing. If I was rich, I would award players loyal to this game. I would sponsor a lot of tournaments, I would try to get new blood into this game somehow. I would.
On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them.
There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition.
Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners.
Your comparison doesn't work, running is fine outside Kenyan, there plenty of runners. That's not the case for BW, I know life isn't fair, i wouldn't care scan playing in our tournaments if we had plenty of them and plenty of players but that's not the case. And instead there are less and less players in those 2 tournaments, i'm trying to help them finding a solution, i don't care Scan has an advantage, i don't care i'm not gonna have the money, but i care about the community.
The players you are calling whiner, bitchs are the only one registring and playing in those tournaments, even if it's not even fun for them but just to keep it alive. And when we come with arguments to help them having more players you are all insulting them i seriously don't get it. Sometimes it's hard to be part of this community....
I most certainly did not call anyone a whiner, nor did I insult anyone. Calling someone a whiner is utterly unhelpful to moving a topic forward and serves only to anger people. Discussions are always better and more meaningful when the relevant issues have been clearly defined and understood, which is what I'm working to do.
A very logical path to take would be:
1) Define the problem - In this case it's pretty clear, concerns about players that are too good. As I explained before, it's not a problem with koreans, not is it a problem with koreans who are too good. It's players who are too good. Admittedly, that's only koreans at the moment, but it could always change
2) Define why it's a problem - Most people are stating it isn't about the money, though all else equal I'm sure no one minds making a few extra dollars.
As alluded to, the main issue then seems to be that playing against players of too high skill level results in lowered activity, because losing too much is discouraging, This, as near as I can tell, seems to be the problem with players that are "too good". If you think there is a different reason as to why players that are too strong is affecting attendance feel free to throw it out there.
3) Discuss solutions - At this point we have established that it's a problem when players that are too far above a given skill level play because many players find losing quickly in games where they feel they don't have a chance to win to be overly unpleasant and sapping the fun.
Knowing that, we can discuss possible solutions, not to advocate these but to put down examples of possible solutions you'd have things like
a) Increase the number of tournaments with a capped skill level, i.e. Max C rank on fish. b) Change the format such that anyone above C can play, but only at the very end as a "final boss" c) Host series/regional tours d) Allow B ranked players to play, but they must offrace x out of y games e) etc.
1) It is true that koreans are favourized in terms of getting knowledge. I dont know why people can't understand it. We - top foreigners dont have easy access to sources, we cant ask questions, we dont understand korean streamers. We cant speak korean. I'm not stating that if we would have, we would be even or better. Im stating that it's just unfair race.
2) Of course its a bit about money for these who can win it, that is normal.
Tours will survive without Scan, but will not without players in general. If organizers don't want to ban Scan/Koreans and other koreans are not coming, and the number of players is about 10 or something, tournaments will not last for a long time. Some people (some of them mentally 15years old) are imagining some words that havent been said by any of us that we want Scan banned because we can't win money. But we are these who are playing most of these tournaments, but tournaments are losing mid tier and low tier players. They have to offer something for them, because even if the top tier stop playing because they might be demotivated, bored of losing, not having a chance to win, any other personal reasons, lower tiers will still play if they find it interesting, because they dont pursuit the win so much. People who play the game understand that, those who dont will troll here and come with their fancy theories. But it has been always like that , those who dont know much about some situation, talk too much.
On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho...
What do you mean by that ?
Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay.
He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money.
And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude.
Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ?
Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
Fair enough. Maybe not all are a level above you anymore but the point still stands in my opinion. Any FAT player is still the underdog against any of the Koreans in the lineup. So they shouldn't be hypocrits.
I've played vs a lot of those guys recently, PianO is definitely good. I dunno his ladder high from last season but he felt like an S rank player to me.
NaDa still has the ability to be really good if he decides to practice seriously instead of playing team games and ums's 24/7. Except for PianO all the other players are winnable games imo.. but obviously it wont be easy. I think it'll come down to how much each player practices. Kinda hoping that they announce the matchups beforehand so the foreign players can start practicing specific mus and maybe plan builds.
I wish more players would switch to 1.18, it's kinda hard to find good ladder games . It's been a month since i stopped laddering just because of how few koreans are on at my hours.. and when you do find a game you have to pray it doesn't lag. That for example is a limiting factor for a lot of foreigners who are trying to find quality practice and improve.
I don't really keep up with non P players but i dont think Dewalt or Bonyth are severe underdogs vs most of these players, maybe 45-55 max (unless they hit PianO). Not sure about the T/Z players tho.
Im posting here like once a year but... This is ridiculous topic. Banning someone because hes better than you? If you want do european or USA or whatever only tournament just do it. But if its open tournament, just deal with it. If someone plays better, hmmm than leave it or simply practice harder.
Lol, Filthy may leave or do whatever, but I'm not going anywhere. I'll be here for a while. I've basically built funding to do this for a year.
I'm here to build this scene. Whether you agree with how I do it or not, I'm thinking by creating these tours and creating this content we're getting ready slowly to handle the many people who will come in from Remastered. I'm building a history and a story. I'm here to lay the groundwork for Broodwar to become amazing again.
I knew it wouldn't be easy. I knew it would take a fight. It won't be in a few months, may take a year, but this is the beginning level. Gotta take out the ground before you can build a house.
My tours have everyone allowed because the scene is small, also I'm lazy and have very little time to do a lot of work on the tournament (Full time+more job). If anyone wants to build a better tour, go for it. Let me know if you need help. I'll give you all my resources, give you advice. I'm working with a foreign broodwar tour this very moment giving my advice on what i've discovered so far.
One of the most important experiences in my BW career was the opportunity to watch a Korean ex-pro compete live at a tournament in Canada. What i learned there was invaluable and truly helped propel me into the competitive scene. Thank heavens their host didn't think like this OP. I hope with SC:R others in the foreign community can have similar experiences.
To deny entry/access to someone based on their ethnicity, well isn't there is a word for that... How small minded or selfish do you have to be to honestly think this is a good idea? WCG had the right idea. Location based requirements. We should embrace as much as possible the Korean scene not try to drive a wedge between them and foreigners. That's bad for BW.
I'm surprised and disappointed this thread is allowed to continue but people have been warned for replying No.
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
On June 14 2017 09:35 NerO wrote: To deny entry/access to someone based on their ethnicity, well isn't there is a word for that... How small minded or selfish do you have to be to honestly think this is a good idea?
So u're saying that Filthy and Schamtoo receiving negative feedback, demotivating them from organizing tournaments is a good thing? U're saying that demotivating potential sponsors from creating more tournaments is a good thing? And please don't reply with 'so stop criticizing them', because I have no influence over other people and can't silence everyone's mouth with a magic pen. We should try to make both the sides happy. This way everyone is happy. You too.
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
This is the best post in the damn thread and basically hit everything on the head in terms of how silly it is. 420/69 satire would recommend.
NICELY done CecilSunkure. The way you made your point is epic and I approve of your message! Banning the best player who participates in these tournaments or banning on the grounds of nationality is completely stupid! ;A;
On June 13 2017 20:53 greenterran wrote: Ban koreans from tournaments
User was warned for this post
why was he warned for this post? there wasnt much content to his post but he expressed his opinion on the topic.. tl admins r weird sometimes..
anyways i think foreigner exclusive tournaments are a good idea because we all know the koreans are on another level, its like canada vs brazil in soccer. canada would get completely destroyed and it would never even be close to a competitive atmosphere. only a few very top foreigners can even maybe take 1-2 games off a real korean pro in a bo5 or bo7 series but hey im just a guy on tl so who tf cares what i think!!
On June 14 2017 10:11 CecilSunkure wrote: lol Bonyth. Nobody is dividing anyone except the idiots trying to BAN KOREANS
Wow... so you didn't understand. Where do you see i'm trying to ban Scan ? I'm just pointing the fact that Scan at the moment is too strong and explaining why. And i'm asking for a new way to make tournaments because we don't have the best solution right now. If Scan play in all tournaments they are no fun to play/watch so i suggested some ideas, good or not for the best of all of us and with some of those ideas Scan won't lose any money, he will still win the tournaments with the most money in it but everyone would be happy, why would i be an idiot for that ?
On June 13 2017 20:53 greenterran wrote: Ban koreans from tournaments
User was warned for this post
why was he warned for this post? there wasnt much content to his post but he expressed his opinion on the topic.. tl admins r weird sometimes..
It doesn't facilitate any discussion in a discussion thread. It is almost the equivalent of empty quoting someone, which has never been allowed on TL.net as far as I know. The topic is literally called "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" and his post contributed nothing in that regard. It makes perfect sense.
Kind of like this post
On June 14 2017 10:11 CecilSunkure wrote: lol Bonyth. Nobody is dividing anyone except the idiots trying to BAN KOREANS
Which is totally uncalled for. Bonyth and KenZy have both made their points and did it politely. People are getting way too heated over this topic.
People probably have forgotten my comment so i'll say it again.
I've clearly heard prize money is not important from KenZy. So, I'll assume people want titles. Try hosting a tournament like 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. I'm not telling KenZy to organize everything and host this event thing. SchAmToo is always there to give all of resources and advice that he can help with just like earlier comment in this thread.
IF everyone is willing to work together, then there might be a great change and for the future.
I don't think the scene can grow in it's current state. Severe lack of players and weird mindsets. Someone came along and hosted tournaments and because there's one really good player people don't want to compete. Seems foreign bw competition is in a very unhealthy state. Scan adds prestige to the tournament and what is so bad about getting second place? If you really want to get first place you have to try really hard unfortunately. The scene being as small as it is and someone spending their time and money on it and players don't want someone to compete because they can't beat him the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that it's about money and/or not wanting to lose(to grow the scene??).
If you guys don't want to compete because you can't win well there may as well not be a competition.
Is there really going to be a difference of any significance if scan doesn't compete? If the current top guys don't have the motivation to compete because scan is there it just speaks to how they don't care about improving or uhhh sorry it's boring.
The obvious solution is to have different skill divisions but the player base doesn't really warrant such a thing so it seems very uncool to just leave one guy out...
I think there's one opportunity to grow the scene and that's with SC:R and I don't think it will be about tournaments having or not having Koreans but about educating new players with beginner guides because bw is pretty broken right off the bat.
I think it's only fair to ban Koreans since they have an inherent genetic advantage. They have evolved over billions of years solely to destroy other races at video games and to be winnar of virtual king of the hill. Other countries won't stand a chance if we let them come and take our championships. + Show Spoiler +
Either that or there's something in their work ethic/culture/infrastructure/whatever we're not seeing or adopting idk
If you guys run a card shop or been to yugioh tournaments at shops, trust me you'd understand more that the top contenders discourage all the other casuals, if the same top contender wins all the time, which translates into less money pool and attendance overall. So if the organizer's goal is to promote the broodwar community outside of korea, then they have every right to ban whoever they want if they think they are too good for the competition, korean or not. It is how they want to organize the tournament and how they want to market it, if people get offended, let them get offended, if it backfires and support for it goes opposite direction, then they will respond in a way that makes sense. The free market will flow naturally.
On June 14 2017 13:33 Moopower wrote: If you guys run a card shop or been to yugioh tournaments at shops, trust me you'd understand more that the top contenders discourage all the other casuals, if the same top contender wins all the time, which translates into less money pool and attendance overall. So if the organizer's goal is to promote the broodwar community outside of korea, then they have every right to ban whoever they want if they think they are too good for the competition, korean or not. It is how they want to organize the tournament and how they want to market it, if people get offended, let them get offended, if it backfires and support for it goes opposite direction, then they will respond in a way that makes sense. The free market will flow naturally.
I really want to get into market failures as a result of free market conditions but this just isn't the place for it
In all honesty, Koreans might have a very small genetic advantage (we're talking maybe 1-2% of the reason that Koreans dominate) - it's not out of the question that the specific brain mechanisms necessary to succeed at high-level video games have for whatever reason been favored in Korean culture for generations - however, the advantages are overwhelmingly the result of culture. I do have doubts to the effect of culture on the mechanical mastery that Koreans seem to show across games, but far be it from me to assert some inherent quality leading to this dominance.
I don't mind having foreigner-only tournaments. I love basketball but the Olympics are boring to me because I know the USA will crush every team up until the finals. Same with the old WCG tournaments, where it was essentially uninteresting until the Koreans inevitably played each other.
I haven't seen a compelling argument in this thread for letting Koreans play against people who haven't been steeped in BW culture for the last two decades.
Yes, ban them from tournaments. I don't think I'm alone when I say that it's no fun watching Korean players dominant foreign tournaments. They're just not relatable to the average viewer. People want to root for someone that represents them, a North American in this case. Characters like Idra drew in the most crowds because he was someone they could relate to to an extent. At any rate he wasn't distinctly different looking than them, intolerant as it sounds.
I think one of the biggest factors in the downfall of professional North American Starcraft 2 was introducing the Koreans into the forgein scene. They siphoned all the money out of the community and put it in their own pockets, then flew off on a plane back to Korea. The professional scene ended up starving because they were funding these players on teams that couldn't measure up to the competition, and weren't able to secure any dough. That's the reality of the situation.
I don't know what is so difficult to understand, the community has been pretty tolerant with Scan regarding his participation to prize money tourney, we aren't against that, I think it comes naturally that with the gap skill he should from time to time not join that would leave more suspense and more fun for everyone, that's about it. The ban topic of course doesn't make sense.
honestly this thread has opened my eyes on how many silly, oblivious, social justice warriors are are in this community and it makes me so sad I thought we were better than this.
It's so sad that there's such an influx of people coming and trying to make people, who have been in BW this entire time, before this "rebirth" of sc:bw, feel bad about caring about the game. All these oblivious people who are so set in their SJW ways drowning out the voices of people who actually care, have always cared, KNOW how all this ticks, and LOVE the game. All this "don't criticize!" "go learn korean and be as good as koreans!" all this shit that has been around forever, all this bullshit spewed by people over the decades of BW's existence, but ignored because when the community was strong, when live tournaments were a thing, everyone knew that foreigners, even when at their best, when dedicating all their time to BW just cannot compete with Koreans. The sad part is that once all this goes to shit, and current BW hype will die down, all these SJW's will leave the community, yet the dedicated people, who people in this thread just refuse to listen to, will still be here, like they always have.
On June 14 2017 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: This is %100 up to the organizer. They put the sweat, money, and hours into making this event happen. That being said:
Message to players: If you disagree with the way a tournament is being run, then don't participate and politely state your reasons for not participating in the proper forum. Let the organizer be informed of why they have low attendance or viewers in a constructive way and maybe the organizer will change their ways. And if they don't, just show your appreciation for their dedication to the scene and accept that there is a difference of opinions.
Message to Organizers: I think it is very important for Organizers to try hard to understand and become familiar with the players that compete in their events. Teamliquid is very grassroots and everyone enjoys being a part of something great. Keeping an ear to the ground and facilitating good discussion is the way to be taken in by the community. Whether it is the Filthy Tournament thread or Where's moletrap thread, there is a lot of discussion around nonconstructive criticism. Now I know I'm not the biggest personality on the scene, but I get 0% negative/hurtful comments sent to me, but I do have tons of PMs with constructive criticism that I take seriously. And even if I don't agree I let everyone know I'm thankful for their time to care enough to reach out to me. Players are responsible for being really good at the game. Personalities should be responsible for setting a good example. As hard as it is, take the high road, love everyone despite their flaws, and the persistence will lead everyone down a better path.
I was about to write a comment but then I saw this. 100% agree, nothing to add.
On June 14 2017 15:48 abuse wrote: All this "don't criticize!" "go learn korean and be as good as koreans!" all this shit that has been around forever, all this bullshit spewed by people over the decades of BW's existence, but ignored because when the community was strong, when live tournaments were a thing, everyone knew that foreigners, even when at their best, when dedicating all their time to BW just cannot compete with Koreans.
I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but let's get one thing straight: foreigners who TRULY dedicated their time and focus into becoming proficient at SC:BW _were able_ to compete with Koreans. I suggest you learn the history of this scene before you give yourself the oldie stamp.
From my perspective, the presence of a strong opponent in a tournament should be a motivating factor, not vice-versa. If I were you, I'd try and work on that defeatist attitude, since that's the only thing holding you back.
On June 14 2017 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: This is %100 up to the organizer. They put the sweat, money, and hours into making this event happen. That being said:
Message to players: If you disagree with the way a tournament is being run, then don't participate and politely state your reasons for not participating in the proper forum. Let the organizer be informed of why they have low attendance or viewers in a constructive way and maybe the organizer will change their ways. And if they don't, just show your appreciation for their dedication to the scene and accept that there is a difference of opinions.
Message to Organizers: I think it is very important for Organizers to try hard to understand and become familiar with the players that compete in their events. Teamliquid is very grassroots and everyone enjoys being a part of something great. Keeping an ear to the ground and facilitating good discussion is the way to be taken in by the community. Whether it is the Filthy Tournament thread or Where's moletrap thread, there is a lot of discussion around nonconstructive criticism. Now I know I'm not the biggest personality on the scene, but I get 0% negative/hurtful comments sent to me, but I do have tons of PMs with constructive criticism that I take seriously. And even if I don't agree I let everyone know I'm thankful for their time to care enough to reach out to me. Players are responsible for being really good at the game. Personalities should be responsible for setting a good example. As hard as it is, take the high road, love everyone despite their flaws, and the persistence will lead everyone down a better path.
I was about to write a comment but then I saw this. 100% agree, nothing to add.
agree. Bisudagger hit the nail on the head and conveyed things perfectly imo.
The thread should've just ended when I said it. You all should've said "Thank you, Nina, you've saved Brood War... again!" but nooooo. Everyone has to get on their soapbox and say "THIS IS WHAT I THINK!!!!!" and ignore me entirely.
What the fuck? I have never seen so many silly arguments like the one I've read from this abuse dude.
Want to beat others and win competitions? Then train and be better. I've played semi-profesionally more than 10 years ago and it took me 4 years to get to that level. I didn't whine about me not knowing language to understand streams or other skewed arguments mentioned here. I just trained, hardcore, every day 5-6 hours. It's silly and weak to whine about it.
So let me ask again, since I didn't get an answer last time I asked. Why won't Scan choose to participate every 2nd tournament?
U can see from the discussion we are having, that teamliquid community is divided, some think it's better to have him in tours, some think it's hurting us and it's not entertaining thing to watch.
If Scan decided to participate every 2nd tournament, we wouldn't have this discussion, people would love him for his approach towards us. He would show how he respects us. If I was on Scan's place, I wouldn't sign for every damn tournament, that's for sure.
Firstly, to those waving the racism card (fortunately not that many), you might be interested to know that Korean domestic football, baseball, basketball (and probably other sport) leagues all have caps on the number of foreigners per team. I'm pretty sure their reasons for doing so have nothing to do with racism.
Anyway, as a casual who's more interested in watching for entertainment than playing at the moment, I'm not going to bother watching a tournament where the same player wins the tournament 30 times in a row. Perhaps i'm a very unvirtuous person for not seeing the educational value in these ROFLstomps, but there it is. Honestly, I mainly get my kicks from watching the Korean tournies but I'm always up for more content and it would be great if i could watch some competitive foreign tournaments as well.
Hopefully BW:remastered will inspire some old names to get back in the game or a bunch of newbie foreigners to really push themselves to get up to Korean level.
Everyone saying to competitors "Then train and be better", what are you going say to the viewers who think it's not fun to watch these tournaments? See my post on page 7.
On June 14 2017 15:48 abuse wrote: All this "don't criticize!" "go learn korean and be as good as koreans!" all this shit that has been around forever, all this bullshit spewed by people over the decades of BW's existence, but ignored because when the community was strong, when live tournaments were a thing, everyone knew that foreigners, even when at their best, when dedicating all their time to BW just cannot compete with Koreans.
I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but let's get one thing straight: foreigners who TRULY dedicated their time and focus into becoming proficient at SC:BW _were able_ to compete with Koreans. I suggest you learn the history of this scene before you give yourself the oldie stamp.
From my perspective, the presence of a strong opponent in a tournament should be a motivating factor, not vice-versa. If I were you, I'd try and work on that defeatist attitude, since that's the only thing holding you back.
I don't understand. No they weren't. Not since Grrr's times which was a crapload of time ago. Also Idk what you're getting at here. I'm not "being held back" personally, because I'm not interested in playing as good as koreans. I do care about the community though, and am a realist, unlike people with their head in the clouds that they created in their own special "just do it" bubble.
On June 14 2017 16:46 Dantak wrote: What the fuck? I have never seen so many silly arguments like the one I've read from this abuse dude.
Want to beat others and win competitions? Then train and be better. I've played semi-profesionally more than 10 years ago and it took me 4 years to get to that level. I didn't whine about me not knowing language to understand streams or other skewed arguments mentioned here. I just trained, hardcore, every day 5-6 hours. It's silly and weak to whine about it.
sigh.. I'm glad your epeen feels better, but playing "semi professionally" is not going to be enough in this case. the foreign scene is miles behind players like Scan. Even if a person like you trained for 10 years "hardcore, every day 5-6 hours" which, let's face it, isn't even that much, then you still wouldn't beat Scan, and wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to beat anyone who's in ASL.
so ignorant, and precisely the kind of thinking I was addressing in my post. You don't understand the issue or the situation. Though I do understand the appeal of living in this "if you train enough, You'll become hokage eventaully" mindset, it's bullshit.
i find this thread disturbing. Simply because it turned into "lets ban Scan from tournaments". Like Scan did something wrong lol.
I'm actually all for foreigner only tournaments every now and then. It creates rivalry, non-predictable results and a lot of hype. But again, its up to organizers to decide how they want to run it.
On June 14 2017 16:54 Bonyth wrote: So let me ask again, since I didn't get an answer last time I asked. Why won't Scan choose to participate every 2nd tournament?
U can see from the discussion we are having, that teamliquid community is divided, some think it's better to have him in tours, some think it's hurting us and it's not entertaining thing to watch.
If Scan decided to participate every 2nd tournament, we wouldn't have this discussion, people would love him for his approach towards us. He would show how he respects us. If I was on Scan's place, I wouldn't sign for every damn tournament, that's for sure.
not playing a tournament is showing respect? why should scan give up on an opportunity to play a tournament just because some people dont like that he is playing? are you saying that its now scans fault that haters gonna hate?
if i were to always listen to other people about what i should be doing, i would be legit dead. if i were in scans place, i would play every tournament i can.
On June 14 2017 16:46 Dantak wrote: What the fuck? I have never seen so many silly arguments like the one I've read from this abuse dude.
Want to beat others and win competitions? Then train and be better. I've played semi-profesionally more than 10 years ago and it took me 4 years to get to that level. I didn't whine about me not knowing language to understand streams or other skewed arguments mentioned here. I just trained, hardcore, every day 5-6 hours. It's silly and weak to whine about it.
sigh.. I'm glad your epeen feels better, but playing "semi professionally" is not going to be enough in this case. the foreign scene is miles behind players like Scan. Even if a person like you trained for 10 years "hardcore, every day 5-6 hours" which, let's face it, isn't even that much, then you still wouldn't beat Scan, and wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to beat anyone who's in ASL.
so ignorant, and precisely the kind of thinking I was addressing in my post. You don't understand the issue or the situation. Though I do understand the appeal of living in this "if you train enough, You'll become hokage eventaully" mindset, it's bullshit.
what would your advice be when somebody wants be to good enough to qualify for ASL? how should he achieve it if not with training?
In my opinion this "woah racist" talk really does not help at all. People are not taking into consideration the circumstances of our community. If we currently had young players who had the capacity to dedicate themselves to the game (like Kolll back then), we wouldn't need to discuss. But the fact is that basically all of us are old and we cannot sufficiently focus on a videogame. Therefore no foreigner (except the glorious dandy) will be able to close the skill-gab. And yes, it is extremely boring that scan wins every single tournament. And yes, it is 100% understandable that this is very annoying to the top20 foreigners. On the other side banning scan is no option. One has to take a middle path and I really understand why this topic isn't a common effort to find the ideal middle path. Approaches that come to mind would be: - Loser-Bracket which is foreigner only (Makes it so that your success does not majorly depend on when you have to face scan/sonstar). - Scan having to off-race in every second tournament. - In the course of a Bo3, Scan has to off-race in every game that follows a win with his mainrace terran (makes it so that foreigners effectively only have to take one game vs his terran)
On June 14 2017 17:11 Esp1noza wrote: Everyone saying to competitors "Then train and be better", what are you going say to the viewers who think it's not fun to watch these tournaments? See my post on page 7.
On June 14 2017 17:11 Esp1noza wrote: Everyone saying to competitors "Then train and be better", what are you going say to the viewers who think it's not fun to watch these tournaments? See my post on page 7.
Then why do we watch people play against FlaSh?
Because Flash' his win rate in sponsored matches are above 70%. Scan has over 90% win rate against us.
On June 14 2017 15:48 abuse wrote: All this "don't criticize!" "go learn korean and be as good as koreans!" all this shit that has been around forever, all this bullshit spewed by people over the decades of BW's existence, but ignored because when the community was strong, when live tournaments were a thing, everyone knew that foreigners, even when at their best, when dedicating all their time to BW just cannot compete with Koreans.
I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but let's get one thing straight: foreigners who TRULY dedicated their time and focus into becoming proficient at SC:BW _were able_ to compete with Koreans. I suggest you learn the history of this scene before you give yourself the oldie stamp.
From my perspective, the presence of a strong opponent in a tournament should be a motivating factor, not vice-versa. If I were you, I'd try and work on that defeatist attitude, since that's the only thing holding you back.
I don't understand. No they weren't. Not since Grrr's times which was a crapload of time ago. Also Idk what you're getting at here. I'm not "being held back" personally, because I'm not interested in playing as good as koreans. I do care about the community though, and am a realist, unlike people with their head in the clouds that they created in their own special "just do it" bubble.
On June 14 2017 16:46 Dantak wrote: What the fuck? I have never seen so many silly arguments like the one I've read from this abuse dude.
Want to beat others and win competitions? Then train and be better. I've played semi-profesionally more than 10 years ago and it took me 4 years to get to that level. I didn't whine about me not knowing language to understand streams or other skewed arguments mentioned here. I just trained, hardcore, every day 5-6 hours. It's silly and weak to whine about it.
sigh.. I'm glad your epeen feels better, but playing "semi professionally" is not going to be enough in this case. the foreign scene is miles behind players like Scan. Even if a person like you trained for 10 years "hardcore, every day 5-6 hours" which, let's face it, isn't even that much, then you still wouldn't beat Scan, and wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to beat anyone who's in ASL.
so ignorant, and precisely the kind of thinking I was addressing in my post. You don't understand the issue or the situation. Though I do understand the appeal of living in this "if you train enough, You'll become hokage eventaully" mindset, it's bullshit.
Honestly, dude, your ad hominem fallacy is really strong here . You are not here to hear other arguments and weigh them in the complete picture, your pictures is already completed and that's why you can't comprehend and really understand other sides of the story. Not much anyone can do about that .
It's one's fault if one is worse than someone else and not being able to own up to that is weak. Case and point.
On June 14 2017 19:00 Dantak wrote: Honestly, dude, your ad hominem fallacy is really strong here . You are not here to hear other arguments and weigh them in the complete picture, your pictures is already completed and that's why you can't comprehend and really understand other sides of the story. Not much anyone can do about that .
It's one's fault if one is worse than someone else and not being able to own up to that is weak. Case and point.
The same could be said about you. U take for certain that players are just whining and are weak. And whatever they write is bullshit because u know better.
On June 14 2017 19:00 Dantak wrote: Honestly, dude, your ad hominem fallacy is really strong here . You are not here to hear other arguments and weigh them in the complete picture, your pictures is already completed and that's why you can't comprehend and really understand other sides of the story. Not much anyone can do about that .
It's one's fault if one is worse than someone else and not being able to own up to that is weak. Case and point.
Sadly, the reason I even wrote that post, is because I actually read and weighed all of the arguments. They're all bullshit. and it's very sad that so many here think that way.
My view on this whole situation can be seen in the very first reply in this whole thread. But people like you don't want to listen to people more experienced in bw-esque things. (just to be clear I am not talking about myself here, I am talking about the top foreigners that are voicing their concerns). People like you are the reason why this thread has gone to shit and it's very sad that we couldn't get a decent discussion going here without all the "git gud" "train more" "learn korean" "spend 20 hours per day from your adult life for the next 5 years , and hope that koreans stop improving meanwhile" "stop whining" "you are racist" All of that is besides the point.
On June 14 2017 19:00 Dantak wrote: Honestly, dude, your ad hominem fallacy is really strong here . You are not here to hear other arguments and weigh them in the complete picture, your pictures is already completed and that's why you can't comprehend and really understand other sides of the story. Not much anyone can do about that .
It's one's fault if one is worse than someone else and not being able to own up to that is weak. Case and point.
Sadly, the reason I even wrote that post, is because I actually read and weighed all of the arguments. They're all bullshit. and it's very sad that so many here think that way.
My view on this whole situation can be seen in the very first reply in this whole thread. But people like you don't want to listen to people more experienced in bw-esque things. (just to be clear I am not talking about myself here, I am talking about the top foreigners that are voicing their concerns). People like you are the reason why this thread has gone to shit and it's very sad that we couldn't get a decent discussion going here without all the "git gud" "train more" "learn korean" "spend 20 hours per day from your adult life for the next 5 years , and hope that koreans stop improving meanwhile" "stop whining" "you are racist" All of that is besides the point.
The top foreigners have a vested interest in having Koreans banned from tournaments therefore aren't the most objective sources of information. There are plenty of sound arguments from people who are against banning Koreans. The fact that you choose to selectively mention the one-liners only seems to fit what everyone is criticizing you for. You have your own narrative set and you'll only choose the comments/posts that fit it.
Get off your high horse because multiple people are telling you that you're being delusional.
On June 14 2017 19:00 Dantak wrote: Honestly, dude, your ad hominem fallacy is really strong here . You are not here to hear other arguments and weigh them in the complete picture, your pictures is already completed and that's why you can't comprehend and really understand other sides of the story. Not much anyone can do about that .
It's one's fault if one is worse than someone else and not being able to own up to that is weak. Case and point.
Sadly, the reason I even wrote that post, is because I actually read and weighed all of the arguments. They're all bullshit. and it's very sad that so many here think that way.
My view on this whole situation can be seen in the very first reply in this whole thread. But people like you don't want to listen to people more experienced in bw-esque things. (just to be clear I am not talking about myself here, I am talking about the top foreigners that are voicing their concerns). People like you are the reason why this thread has gone to shit and it's very sad that we couldn't get a decent discussion going here without all the "git gud" "train more" "learn korean" "spend 20 hours per day from your adult life for the next 5 years , and hope that koreans stop improving meanwhile" "stop whining" "you are racist" All of that is besides the point.
The top foreigners have a vested interest in having Koreans banned from tournaments therefore aren't the most objective sources of information. There are plenty of sound arguments from people who are against banning Koreans. The fact that you choose to selectively mention the one-liners only seems to fit what everyone is criticizing you for. You have your own narrative set and you'll only choose the comments/posts that fit it.
Get off your high horse because multiple people are telling you that you're being delusional.
On June 14 2017 17:11 Esp1noza wrote: Everyone saying to competitors "Then train and be better", what are you going say to the viewers who think it's not fun to watch these tournaments? See my post on page 7.
Then why do we watch people play against FlaSh?
I enjoy watching korean tournaments alot, including Flash games of course. Why I don't like Scan vs foreigners games then? Probably because I don't feel Flash outclassed other good progamers the way Scan outclassed foreigners.
I think a good idea would be to look at how other 1v1 sports handle this problem. As far as i know, it is usually through one of multiple means:
a) Just make the lower tournaments not be worth it for the better players. b) Have some sort of global elo rating, and cap the tournaments c) Different tournament formats.
The way i see the big problem here is that a classic tournament format is not very satisfying if there are some clearly superior players, because it does not give any good results for the resulting players. If you are lucky, you meet the best player in the finals and are second place, if you are unlucky, you play him in the first round and are out.
Maybe that could be fixed with some different sort of tournament format that results in more exact results for the lower ranks. Maybe it would be interesting to use some sort of non-eliminating game format, like the swiss system used in chess. That would remove the frustration of being kicked out after only one game because you were unlucky in the draw of your opponents, and would result in a more representative rang order below the first player, which would allow for something to be played for. I think that something like that might resolve a lot of the problems people have with "koreans" in their tournaments, because their results would feel less random, there is still something to strive for, and you can actually budget the amount of time needed for the games better, because you know that you will play x games.
It is, however, probably less cinematic than an elimination style tournament.
If a guy is able to beat top foreigners with his offrace that means he's league higher.
He should compete in Korean tourneys mainly, where people are similiar to his skill level. Most of the players I know that play in Defiler and other leagues doesn't want Scan to participate.
So, all in all, I think it would be better for majority to ban Korean people from foreign tournaments.
I'm not really sure where this discussion could possibly lead to be honest. Are you trying to get some arrangement on ban or no ban in all foreign tournaments? I don't think that would work.
Can't we just simply agree that there are valid arguments on both sides and let the tournament arranger decide in each individual case while respecting that decision. I'd love to see some foreign only tournaments and some that includes Koreans aswell.
All of you are right tbh. I dont watch much foreigner BW (I'd like to begin doing so) so dont take my opinion too seriously.
Having one guy win it all IS boring. I am normally a Flash fan, but after he last time beat JD, it has become too much, I wished so bad that Shine would beat him, but alas no.... Flash is a God and if he continues to win I fear that it will be bad for broodwar. The same can be said for foreign BW.
But banning someone because they beat others in a competition for money is really stupid. Who will be the next to be banned? Who decideds who is juuust bad enough so they can participate?
Organizers should, if they feel it is a problem, design their tourneys so its unfavorable for the winner. If someone wins 3 times in a row he should have his price pool in the next tournament raised BUT also have to play more matches, or win by a score of two. (or come up other much more complex obstacles for him to climb, - unfavorable maps etc etc)
I dont have the solution, but either thing is bad and needs to be taken seriously.
On June 14 2017 20:29 Pippah wrote: All of you are right tbh. I dont watch much foreigner BW (I'd like to begin doing so) so dont take my opinion too seriously.
Having one guy win it all IS boring. I am normally a Flash fan, but after he last time beat JD, it has become too much, I wished so bad that Shine would beat him, but alas no.... Flash is a God and if he continues to win I fear that it will be bad for broodwar. The same can be said for foreign BW.
But banning someone because they beat others in a competition for money is really stupid. Who will be the next to be banned? Who decideds who is juuust bad enough so they can participate?
Organizers should, if they feel it is a problem, design their tourneys so its unfavorable for the winner. If someone wins 3 times in a row he should have his price pool in the next tournament raised BUT also have to play more matches, or win by a score of two. (or come up other much more complex obstacles for him to climb, - unfavorable maps etc etc)
I dont have the solution, but either thing is bad and needs to be taken seriously.
In sports, there are Amateur League and Professional Leagues, where you don't let professionals to play in Amateur League. Also you don't match a boxer from featherweight against a heavyweight boxer.
On June 14 2017 20:29 Pippah wrote: All of you are right tbh. I dont watch much foreigner BW (I'd like to begin doing so) so dont take my opinion too seriously.
Having one guy win it all IS boring. I am normally a Flash fan, but after he last time beat JD, it has become too much, I wished so bad that Shine would beat him, but alas no.... Flash is a God and if he continues to win I fear that it will be bad for broodwar. The same can be said for foreign BW.
But banning someone because they beat others in a competition for money is really stupid. Who will be the next to be banned? Who decideds who is juuust bad enough so they can participate?
Organizers should, if they feel it is a problem, design their tourneys so its unfavorable for the winner. If someone wins 3 times in a row he should have his price pool in the next tournament raised BUT also have to play more matches, or win by a score of two. (or come up other much more complex obstacles for him to climb, - unfavorable maps etc etc)
I dont have the solution, but either thing is bad and needs to be taken seriously.
In sports, there are Amateur League and Professional Leagues, where you don't let professionals to play in Amateur League. Also you don't match a boxer from featherweight against a heavyweight boxer.
Well, most amateur sports dont compete for money. Money is what makes it professional. But a solution could then be to make leagues. However I dont think the scene is big enough to make leagues ?
On June 14 2017 20:17 Simberto wrote: I think a good idea would be to look at how other 1v1 sports handle this problem. As far as i know, it is usually through one of multiple means:
a) Just make the lower tournaments not be worth it for the better players. b) Have some sort of global elo rating, and cap the tournaments c) Different tournament formats.
The idea of the global elo rating and elo cap tournaments seems like the best way to go about this issue. (Just like they do in Chess for exemple). Just banning a single person because "he is much better" without there being any kind of measurement for the skill and precise rank caps is not something that can be so simple as some people make it out to be.
Let's hope that the SC:R ladder/rankings can become the new norm and that we can use this sytem as a "skill measurement" and therefore create tourneys limiting entrance to certain ELO range.
"Open" tournaments should always allow everyone. If the organiser decides to deny access to a particular person, as he has the right to do if if so wants to, then the tournament cannot be labeled as "open" anymore.
On June 14 2017 20:29 Pippah wrote: All of you are right tbh. I dont watch much foreigner BW (I'd like to begin doing so) so dont take my opinion too seriously.
Having one guy win it all IS boring. I am normally a Flash fan, but after he last time beat JD, it has become too much, I wished so bad that Shine would beat him, but alas no.... Flash is a God and if he continues to win I fear that it will be bad for broodwar. The same can be said for foreign BW.
But banning someone because they beat others in a competition for money is really stupid. Who will be the next to be banned? Who decideds who is juuust bad enough so they can participate?
Organizers should, if they feel it is a problem, design their tourneys so its unfavorable for the winner. If someone wins 3 times in a row he should have his price pool in the next tournament raised BUT also have to play more matches, or win by a score of two. (or come up other much more complex obstacles for him to climb, - unfavorable maps etc etc)
I dont have the solution, but either thing is bad and needs to be taken seriously.
In sports, there are Amateur League and Professional Leagues, where you don't let professionals to play in Amateur League. Also you don't match a boxer from featherweight against a heavyweight boxer.
So where do we let Scan(because this is practically about Scan and not all the Koreans) play? He's not residing in Korea, he's no and never was a pro like the top Koreans and you are arguing to ban him from foreign competitions. Should we give the only Korean amateur player who is contributing heavily to the foreign scene (more so than nearly all the foreign topdogs) a blanket ban from competing in 'our' tournaments?
So where do we let Scan(because this is practically about Scan and not all the Koreans) play? He's not residing in Korea, he's no and never was a pro like the top Koreans and you are arguing to ban him from foreign competitions. Should we give the only Korean amateur player who is contributing heavily to the foreign scene (more so than nearly all the foreign topdogs) a blanket ban from competing in 'our' tournaments?
Scan said in his stream that many people are mistaken because he IS residing in Korea at the moment. It's just that he has spent many years in the US in the past.
But I agree with what you said though. I find that Scan contributes at least as much (and personally I think : more) to the foreign bw community than the players who are actually complaining about Scan winning the tournaments.
If you watch his stream, he actually works harder at communicating with his viewers, explaining his strategies, commentating his games, etc.. Some of the foreign "topdogs" (not all) streams are just games after games with zero talking and zero interaction
So where do we let Scan(because this is practically about Scan and not all the Koreans) play? He's not residing in Korea, he's no and never was a pro like the top Koreans and you are arguing to ban him from foreign competitions. Should we give the only Korean amateur player who is contributing heavily to the foreign scene (more so than nearly all the foreign topdogs) a blanket ban from competing in 'our' tournaments?
Scan said in his stream that many people are mistaken because he IS residing in Korea at the moment. It's just that he has spent many years in the US in the past.
But I agree with what you said though. I find that Scan contributes at least as much (and personally I think : more) to the foreign bw community than the players who are actually complaining about Scan winning the tournaments.
If you watch his stream, he actually works harder at communicating with his viewers, explaining his strategies, commentating his games, etc.. Some of the foreign "topdogs" (not all) streams are just games after games with zero talking and zero interaction
Fair enough. Didn't know that. Thank you for correcting me But just as you say, the point still stands.
Also where do we stop after we ban 'Koreans'(Scan) from the foreign tournaments. In 2011 there we're talks for ISL to also maybe ban Sziky. Will this be the next step? Ban trutaCz, eonzerg, Bonyth because they may dominate?
On June 14 2017 21:29 trutaCz wrote: Are you for real? I wrote it million times, bonyth too. Every foreigner has same chances to become the best.
Yeah and? I don't say you guys should be banned.
The fact that everyone in the foreign scene has the same chances didn't stop past tournament organisers to think about banning people who were too good. For example Sziky. I'm just saying what this situation might result in, not that I want this to happen.
But noone ever complained about Sziky being the best and dominant, and yes, he was the factor motivating all us to get better in this game, because he was in our range. Did really organizers think about banning Sziky back in the days? I either missed it or i dont remember oo. I would love to have a chance to compete again with Sziky for the first place in tournaments, that would bring my motivation back, maybe in remastered..
People who keep reducing the discussion here to a single sound bite and keep saying that this discussion is silly should just stop posting, as this situation is all but clear and a far more nuanced than that. It's easy to position yourself on a moral high ground when you somehow see this as a racist issue, which is just ridiculous. I haven't seen a single post where it was suggested that this has anything to do with the race or genetics. If you really do see it like that, I suggest you look elsewhere, there are a lot more worthy causes for you to get offended at.
Anyway, to stay on topic, what it boils down to is that organizers should define the goal of their tournament and then implement policies that you, as an organizer, think will help you reach that goal. You want an open tournament? Don't ban koreans/chinese. You want a "foreign"-only tournament? Ban koreans/chinese. But be careful, there are a lot of edge cases which you have to take into account. Eg. Koreans living outside Korea or foreigners living inside Korea. Also, as an organizer, you need to be clear about your intentions and provide clear explanations behind your decisions. Are you banning Koreans/Chinese because of the potential latency issues? Language barrier? Because they's simply too good? How do you even define a "foreigner'? Even when you lay down all your rules in the most clear way possible, there will still be some edge cases that you'll have to handle specially (see nongminzerg situation in TSL). I feel like schamtoo/filthy didn't do most of these things, which is very understandable. They're both new to the BW scene in this capacity, and organizing a tournament is a shit ton of work, even without dealing with these nuanced issues.
Of course, even when you do everything "perfectly", you still need to take community's feedback into account when you think it's valid. For example, this is how things went down when we announced Teamliquid Legacy Cups:
Goal: strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene Policy: allow Scan to play since he was a part of the foreign BW scene Community feedback: change the policy to ban Scan because there was a legit chance our initial policy would hurt our goal
Was our decision a correct choice? It's still hard to say. We don't really know what would have happened if we stuck to our original policy. The only visible effect our decision had was reducing the amount of headaches I got
In any case, both sides here have some valid arguments. For example, it's undeniable that people who have access to the wealth of opportunities to get better in the Korean scene have inherent advantage over those who don't. Of course, this was probably more true while the professional BW teams were still a thing, which is why every foreigner who wanted to get to the next level wanted to go to Korea to achieve that. But on the other side, it's also true that some of the players have problems with the mentality in how they approach their games. Understandable or not, it's very disheartening seeing a top foreigner player give up before the game even starts and then play in a half-assed way when actually in the game. I don't remember this happening against Sziky a few years ago when he was dominating scene in the similar fashion as Scan is now.
So while I think we will never reach consensus on what is "one best decision" here, I do think this discussion is important. It helps organizers to make informed decisions when deciding how they want to run their tournaments. So you know... keep discussing . And more importantly, keep it civil!
On June 14 2017 22:15 2Pacalypse- wrote: People who keep reducing the discussion here to a single sound bite and keep saying that this discussion is silly should just stop posting, as this situation is all but clear and a far more nuanced than that. It's easy to position yourself on a moral high ground when you somehow see this as a racist issue, which is just ridiculous. I haven't seen a single post where it was suggested that this has anything to do with the race or genetics. If you really do see it like that, I suggest you look elsewhere, there are a lot more worthy causes for you to get offended at.
Anyway, to stay on topic, what it boils down to is that organizers should define the goal of their tournament and then implement policies that you, as an organizer, think will help you reach that goal. You want an open tournament? Don't ban koreans/chinese. You want a "foreign"-only tournament? Ban koreans/chinese. But be careful, there are a lot of edge cases which you have to take into account. Eg. Koreans living outside Korea or foreigners living inside Korea. Also, as an organizer, you need to be clear about your intentions and provide clear explanations behind your decisions. Are you banning Koreans/Chinese because of the potential latency issues? Language barrier? Because they's simply too good? How do you even define a "foreigner'? Even when you lay down all your rules in the most clear way possible, there will still be some edge cases that you'll have to handle specially (see nongminzerg situation in TSL). I feel like schamtoo/filthy didn't do most of these things, which is very understandable. They're both new to the BW scene in this capacity, and organizing a tournament is a shit ton of work, even without dealing with these nuanced issues.
Of course, even when you do everything "perfectly", you still need to take community's feedback into account when you think it's valid. For example, this is how things went down when we announced Teamliquid Legacy Cups:
Goal: strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene Policy: allow Scan to play since he was a part of the foreign BW scene Community feedback: change the policy to ban Scan because there was a legit chance our initial policy would hurt our goal
Was our decision a correct choice? It's still hard to say. We don't really know what would have happened if we stuck to our original policy. The only visible effect our decision had was reducing the amount of headaches I got
In any case, both sides here have some valid arguments. For example, it's undeniable that people who have access to the wealth of opportunities to get better in the Korean scene have inherent advantage over those who don't. Of course, this was probably more true while the professional BW teams were still a thing, which is why every foreigner who wanted to get to the next level wanted to go to Korea to achieve that. But on the other side, it's also true that some of the players have problems with the mentality in how they approach their games. Understandable or not, it's very disheartening seeing a top foreigner player give up before the game even starts and then play in a half-assed way when actually in the game. I don't remember this happening against Sziky a few years ago when he was dominating scene in the similar fashion as Scan is now.
So while I think we will never reach consensus on what is "one best decision" here, I do think this discussion is important. It helps organizers to make informed decisions when deciding how they want to run their tournaments. So you know... keep discussing . And more importantly, keep it civil!
That's what i wanted when i started this topic, i know everyone won't agree with me, but i wantd to share my opinion and hear yours, but some people here just didn't even want to listen opinion that are different from their own.
After reading the whole thread, I've learned a lot about the issues that plague the BW community. I'm actually pretty new to the competitive scene even though I've played a ton when I was a kid when it came out. It's been interesting to see the different types of people involved in the scene and their opinions on it. Here's some of my thoughts...
- It seems the one thing everyone can agree on is we want the foreign BW community to grow, and by that we mean more players, more tournaments, and more sponsors.
- There are many viewers of BW that play casually (B- level or below) that enjoy viewing for different reasons. Some like to see the best of the best play a la Korea, others like to watch close matches of any skill level, and plenty like both. Most everyone in this thread who are against the Korean ban are viewers. A lot of the viewers seem to be implying that the players are taking it personally that they lose to Scan all the time, and want to have an easier time at tournaments for prestige/reputation/money.
- There are a few players of BW that play at an amateur level (around A- I guess? not sure what their ranks are). In this small group, the large majority have been playing for a very long time. Their posts seem to indicate, contrary to viewers, that their primary purpose is to encourage the shared goal of growth for BW community. They have put in a lot of time over the years to develop their skill, but from their posts it makes it seem like it's done mainly as a service for the BW community. It seems like they respect Scan for his skill, but are worried that since they are not at his level, and will/can not invest the time/effort necessary to raise their skill to his point, that the viewers will be discouraged from viewing tournaments because the games appeal to neither those seeking the best of the best OR close matches. In addition, they are worried that the time/energy needed to catch up to someone like Scan in order to have a chance in tournaments will make the barrier of entry to BW for PLAYERS even higher, resulting in less players in tournaments. Both less viewers and less players will result in weaker tournaments which have less chance of drawing in sponsors, which hurts the aforementioned prime goal.
- An interesting parallel to this situation is Smash 4 for WiiU. There was a guy (Zero) who for a period of maybe like 2 years? won every single major tournament for the game. There was no one even remotely close to his skill level, he would do the equivalent of off-racing in tournament finals all the time and still dominate. There were a lot of viewers that hated him, and players that resented his presence in tournaments. What eventually happened though, was that a lot of new blood came around that trained a lot and eventually caught up to him. Now Zero is still top 4/top 8 in tournaments (I think?), but barely even a title contender. The scene is absolutely thriving.
- Obviously there's a lot of differences between the two games, but I think what is pertinent is how to develop the aforementioned goal of developing the BW scene. I think the key will be drawing in as much new blood to the scene as possible, and the SC:R hype will help with that. But since there are no existing sponsors or financial base, what will need to be done is to appeal to the reason we all enjoy the game...that it's damn fun! Reaching out into your local community, not shutting up about it to your friends, hosting casual LANs with beer and snacks and a little tourney + UMS maps and putting up flyers advertising it, going to your nearest e-sports friendly bar and working with them to organize something, reaching out to popular streamers/creating your own that play a variety of games, and incorporate BW into the mix. These are the actions that will really get the new generation hyped for the game, and from there they will get the motivation to tackle Scan one day.
The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
On June 14 2017 22:15 2Pacalypse- wrote: People who keep reducing the discussion here to a single sound bite and keep saying that this discussion is silly should just stop posting, as this situation is all but clear and a far more nuanced than that. It's easy to position yourself on a moral high ground when you somehow see this as a racist issue, which is just ridiculous. I haven't seen a single post where it was suggested that this has anything to do with the race or genetics. If you really do see it like that, I suggest you look elsewhere, there are a lot more worthy causes for you to get offended at.
Anyway, to stay on topic, what it boils down to is that organizers should define the goal of their tournament and then implement policies that you, as an organizer, think will help you reach that goal. You want an open tournament? Don't ban koreans/chinese. You want a "foreign"-only tournament? Ban koreans/chinese. But be careful, there are a lot of edge cases which you have to take into account. Eg. Koreans living outside Korea or foreigners living inside Korea. Also, as an organizer, you need to be clear about your intentions and provide clear explanations behind your decisions. Are you banning Koreans/Chinese because of the potential latency issues? Language barrier? Because they's simply too good? How do you even define a "foreigner'? Even when you lay down all your rules in the most clear way possible, there will still be some edge cases that you'll have to handle specially (see nongminzerg situation in TSL). I feel like schamtoo/filthy didn't do most of these things, which is very understandable. They're both new to the BW scene in this capacity, and organizing a tournament is a shit ton of work, even without dealing with these nuanced issues.
Of course, even when you do everything "perfectly", you still need to take community's feedback into account when you think it's valid. For example, this is how things went down when we announced Teamliquid Legacy Cups:
Goal: strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene Policy: allow Scan to play since he was a part of the foreign BW scene Community feedback: change the policy to ban Scan because there was a legit chance our initial policy would hurt our goal
Was our decision a correct choice? It's still hard to say. We don't really know what would have happened if we stuck to our original policy. The only visible effect our decision had was reducing the amount of headaches I got
In any case, both sides here have some valid arguments. For example, it's undeniable that people who have access to the wealth of opportunities to get better in the Korean scene have inherent advantage over those who don't. Of course, this was probably more true while the professional BW teams were still a thing, which is why every foreigner who wanted to get to the next level wanted to go to Korea to achieve that. But on the other side, it's also true that some of the players have problems with the mentality in how they approach their games. Understandable or not, it's very disheartening seeing a top foreigner player give up before the game even starts and then play in a half-assed way when actually in the game. I don't remember this happening against Sziky a few years ago when he was dominating scene in the similar fashion as Scan is now.
So while I think we will never reach consensus on what is "one best decision" here, I do think this discussion is important. It helps organizers to make informed decisions when deciding how they want to run their tournaments. So you know... keep discussing . And more importantly, keep it civil!
That's what i wanted when i started this topic, i know everyone won't agree with me, but i wantd to share my opinion and hear yours, but some people here just didn't even want to listen opinion that are different from their own.
Thanks for this constructive post.
Dont include me in 'everyone.' I gave numerous tips/ideas. But not a lot of people were listening when i said no prize money, just a title tournament: "2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion" Because thats what most of Korean Clans do for. Inside battle.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
That comparison really sucks. I would´nt want to be labeled as handicapped just cause I´m a foreigner playing BW and I guess handicapped people don´t think that way either. But we should ban Scan from Tournaments for One handed People, thats for sure. My opinion: Legacy Cups... So after Scan was Banned trutaCz won 11/16 remaining Cups. So boring! I defenitly would have stopped watching after his 5th win. Should prolly just have banned him in time. No Seriously, I just think If u ban a certain guy for the reason that he´s to good and wins everything, than there will be another one and it´s the same problem again.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
I played cheesy and 2 base macro only 2009. Why? I know i havent absorbed modern trends. I did the same thing as you did to learn from proleague, osl, and msl. They didnt have individual stream servers like twitch and stuff.
Dont get your idea wrong. There are only 1 big event(asl) in korea that is opened for all users. I also participate clanleagues that KaL leaders are managing players. Idk why you think that i dont participate lan tours. Also you assume there are tons of minor offline tours for some reason. We dont have it.
The amount of ur games played for 3 months is like 1000 games or close to it(add iccup stats with your fish ladder). Quite not sure why you are talking about multiple fish accounts. If you pretty much spend your time efficiently to improve significantly im sure you couldve moved into a next level. Playing offrace in iccup and other stuff. Im not forcing you to 'git gud.' Im just a casual gamer/streamer just like everyone else. I do the same thing just like you do in iccup. Playing offrace, some coaching vods for viewers, playing with subsribers and etc.
Whats the problem of hosting no prize money tour? Dont you guys have ego and always love to compare x player vs y player, whos better, right? Also, please read my comment again. I never fking said to kenzy to host.
Not only europeans are caring about foreign community. I also care about it. Given away a lot of suggestions, but some people are just completely stubborn and fk you it wont work. Isnt it pretty much about NATO then?
Practicing environment. I had all the same situation as every foreigners had problems playing with korean up to 2016. I lagged with ppl who used lowlatency hack, and they chose not to play with. Of course i had a better ping, connection and higher chance to find games, but it wont change a fact that i had the same struggle. You guys and everyone have access to login fish server to find good quality games.
I dont make a living off by winning every tours. But it definitely helps with saving money for my future goals and dating cost with my gf every time i go out on a date.
Lastly, i support foreign players/community giving them feedbacks, replays, etc about what they are doing wrong. I also congratz and root for them to win tourneys that i was not allowed to play. Btw, can you please use spaces and separate lines cuz sometimes its hard to understand your thoughts.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
That comparison really sucks. I would´nt want to be labeled as handicapped just cause I´m a foreigner playing BW and I guess handicapped people don´t think that way either. But we should ban Scan from Tournaments for One handed People, thats for sure. My opinion: Legacy Cups... So after Scan was Banned trutaCz won 11/16 remaining Cups. So boring! I defenitly would have stopped watching after his 5th win. Should prolly just have banned him in time. No Seriously, I just think If u ban a certain guy for the reason that he´s to good and wins everything, than there will be another one and it´s the same problem again.
Racism applied in my case though. They shouldve just done region-lock if they didnt want koreans to play just like sc2.
Maybe instead of calling it "banned" from an event (like the TLC or the weekly tournaments), say that if a player wins an event 3 times in a certain amount of time, they are awarded a "Hall of Fame" for the event, or maybe after the third win they get a BONUS amount of money (kinda like a golden mouse idea), BUT they cannot compete for the next events for X amount of time and are considered "retired" from the events until otherwise said by the organizer. This would only be applicable for longer iteration or weekly events.
This would mean that the person who wins is given the respect they deserve for winning, but ANY person that dominates too much will eventually have to step aside at some point and let other people have a chance to dominate.
Not only that, but this suggestion has no bias here whatsoever based on being Korean or not since it will apply to any player, and since we don't have an ELO rating or any global rating, this can serve as a good way for somebody who dominates too much to take a backseat without being "banned". The BONUS would also incentivize people to win the events as well. Only thing is that this wouldn't work for 1-time tourneys or any tourneys that don't run for more than a week.
Maybe this is a bad idea, idk. Anyways, it's another alternative.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
I played cheesy and 2 base macro only 2009. Why? I know i havent absorbed modern trends. I did the same thing as you did to learn from proleague, osl, and msl. They didnt have individual stream servers like twitch and stuff.
Dont get your idea wrong. There are only 1 big event(asl) in korea that is opened for all users. I also participate clanleagues that KaL leaders are managing players. Idk why you think that i dont participate lan tours. Also you assume there are tons of minor offline tours for some reason. We dont have it.
The amount of ur games played for 3 months is like 1000 games or close to it(add iccup stats with your fish ladder). Quite not sure why you are talking about multiple fish accounts. If you pretty much spend your time efficiently to improve significantly im sure you couldve moved into a next level. Playing offrace in iccup and other stuff. Im not forcing you to 'git gud.' Im just a casual gamer/streamer just like everyone else. I do the same thing just like you do in iccup. Playing offrace, some coaching vods for viewers, playing with subsribers and etc.
Whats the problem of hosting no prize money tour? Dont you guys have ego and always love to compare x player vs y player, whos better, right? Also, please read my comment again. I never fking said to kenzy to host.
Not only europeans are caring about foreign community. I also care about it. Given away a lot of suggestions, but some people are just completely stubborn and fk you it wont work. Isnt it pretty much about NATO then?
Practicing environment. I had all the same situation as every foreigners had problems playing with korean up to 2016. I lagged with ppl who used lowlatency hack, and they chose not to play with. Of course i had a better ping, connection and higher chance to find games, but it wont change a fact that i had the same struggle. You guys and everyone have access to login fish server to find good quality games.
I dont make a living off by winning every tours. But it definitely helps with saving money for my future goals and dating cost with my gf every time i go out on a date.
Lastly, i support foreign players/community giving them feedbacks, replays, etc about what they are doing wrong. I also congratz and root for them to win tourneys that i was not allowed to play. Btw, can you please use spaces and separate lines cuz sometimes its hard to understand your thoughts.
Then let's seal this thread once and for all, come every week end, get your cash to finance your dates and let's see where this will go overtime since your are contributing so much for the foreign community, only good things will happen.
On June 15 2017 00:48 JungleTerrain wrote: Maybe instead of calling it "banned" from an event (like the TLC or the weekly tournaments), say that if a player wins an event 3 times in a certain amount of time, they are awarded a "Hall of Fame" for the event, or maybe after the third win they get a BONUS amount of money (kinda like a golden mouse idea), BUT they cannot compete for the next events for X amount of time and are considered "retired" from the events until otherwise said by the organizer. This would only be applicable for longer iteration or weekly events.
This would mean that the person who wins is given the respect they deserve for winning, but ANY person that dominates too much will eventually have to step aside at some point and let other people have a chance to dominate.
Not only that, but this suggestion has no bias here whatsoever based on being Korean or not since it will apply to any player, and since we don't have an ELO rating or any global rating, this can serve as a good way for somebody who dominates too much to take a backseat without being "banned". The BONUS would also incentivize people to win the events as well. Only thing is that this wouldn't work for 1-time tourneys or any tourneys that don't run for more than a week.
Maybe this is a bad idea, idk. Anyways, it's another alternative.
Fight Club has the incentive to defeat the opponent that has a bounty on their head for winning 5 weeks in a row. Nothing more motivating then the pride and money of achieving that victory.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
I played cheesy and 2 base macro only 2009. Why? I know i havent absorbed modern trends. I did the same thing as you did to learn from proleague, osl, and msl. They didnt have individual stream servers like twitch and stuff.
Dont get your idea wrong. There are only 1 big event(asl) in korea that is opened for all users. I also participate clanleagues that KaL leaders are managing players. Idk why you think that i dont participate lan tours. Also you assume there are tons of minor offline tours for some reason. We dont have it.
The amount of ur games played for 3 months is like 1000 games or close to it(add iccup stats with your fish ladder). Quite not sure why you are talking about multiple fish accounts. If you pretty much spend your time efficiently to improve significantly im sure you couldve moved into a next level. Playing offrace in iccup and other stuff. Im not forcing you to 'git gud.' Im just a casual gamer/streamer just like everyone else. I do the same thing just like you do in iccup. Playing offrace, some coaching vods for viewers, playing with subsribers and etc.
Whats the problem of hosting no prize money tour? Dont you guys have ego and always love to compare x player vs y player, whos better, right? Also, please read my comment again. I never fking said to kenzy to host.
Not only europeans are caring about foreign community. I also care about it. Given away a lot of suggestions, but some people are just completely stubborn and fk you it wont work. Isnt it pretty much about NATO then?
Practicing environment. I had all the same situation as every foreigners had problems playing with korean up to 2016. I lagged with ppl who used lowlatency hack, and they chose not to play with. Of course i had a better ping, connection and higher chance to find games, but it wont change a fact that i had the same struggle. You guys and everyone have access to login fish server to find good quality games.
I dont make a living off by winning every tours. But it definitely helps with saving money for my future goals and dating cost with my gf every time i go out on a date.
Lastly, i support foreign players/community giving them feedbacks, replays, etc about what they are doing wrong. I also congratz and root for them to win tourneys that i was not allowed to play. Btw, can you please use spaces and separate lines cuz sometimes its hard to understand your thoughts.
Why can't you admit that you have an advantage ? Seriously we both know it's the truth, you are smart and you know it but just don't wanna admit it in front of your fans.
Saying to eon his training is shit and he could be so much better if he trained like you did made me laugh.
Flash came back after 2 or 3years playing no bw and only sc2 and he is already wayyy better than you. You know why ? He trained more efficiently than you, it must be that. Same for all pros that came back, they had no advantage over you, you just didn't train efficiently, must be that right ?
On June 15 2017 00:48 JungleTerrain wrote: Maybe instead of calling it "banned" from an event (like the TLC or the weekly tournaments), say that if a player wins an event 3 times in a certain amount of time, they are awarded a "Hall of Fame" for the event, or maybe after the third win they get a BONUS amount of money (kinda like a golden mouse idea), BUT they cannot compete for the next events for X amount of time and are considered "retired" from the events until otherwise said by the organizer. This would only be applicable for longer iteration or weekly events.
This would mean that the person who wins is given the respect they deserve for winning, but ANY person that dominates too much will eventually have to step aside at some point and let other people have a chance to dominate.
Not only that, but this suggestion has no bias here whatsoever based on being Korean or not since it will apply to any player, and since we don't have an ELO rating or any global rating, this can serve as a good way for somebody who dominates too much to take a backseat without being "banned". The BONUS would also incentivize people to win the events as well. Only thing is that this wouldn't work for 1-time tourneys or any tourneys that don't run for more than a week.
Maybe this is a bad idea, idk. Anyways, it's another alternative.
Fight Club has the incentive to defeat the opponent that has a bounty on their head for winning 5 weeks in a row. Nothing more motivating then the pride and money of achieving that victory.
Yeah as I was writing I thought of Fight Club, too. The difference with my idea is that a player that wins too much would step outside of the competition, but I can also see that this might not be the most exciting thing for viewers (imagine if other popular players win, like Sziky, and then he has to step out, which maybe will attract less viewers). In the end we might just be right where we started.
On June 15 2017 00:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: but you understand korean.we dont
And i never used language advantage to improve myself in game. Thats why i believe its matters of a mindset. I even post a youtube video who talks about a topic: Koreans dominating in games. I highly recommend you to watch, but still up to you to check it out. I can put a meal front of your table, but i cant feed you.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
I played cheesy and 2 base macro only 2009. Why? I know i havent absorbed modern trends. I did the same thing as you did to learn from proleague, osl, and msl. They didnt have individual stream servers like twitch and stuff.
Dont get your idea wrong. There are only 1 big event(asl) in korea that is opened for all users. I also participate clanleagues that KaL leaders are managing players. Idk why you think that i dont participate lan tours. Also you assume there are tons of minor offline tours for some reason. We dont have it.
The amount of ur games played for 3 months is like 1000 games or close to it(add iccup stats with your fish ladder). Quite not sure why you are talking about multiple fish accounts. If you pretty much spend your time efficiently to improve significantly im sure you couldve moved into a next level. Playing offrace in iccup and other stuff. Im not forcing you to 'git gud.' Im just a casual gamer/streamer just like everyone else. I do the same thing just like you do in iccup. Playing offrace, some coaching vods for viewers, playing with subsribers and etc.
Whats the problem of hosting no prize money tour? Dont you guys have ego and always love to compare x player vs y player, whos better, right? Also, please read my comment again. I never fking said to kenzy to host.
Not only europeans are caring about foreign community. I also care about it. Given away a lot of suggestions, but some people are just completely stubborn and fk you it wont work. Isnt it pretty much about NATO then?
Practicing environment. I had all the same situation as every foreigners had problems playing with korean up to 2016. I lagged with ppl who used lowlatency hack, and they chose not to play with. Of course i had a better ping, connection and higher chance to find games, but it wont change a fact that i had the same struggle. You guys and everyone have access to login fish server to find good quality games.
I dont make a living off by winning every tours. But it definitely helps with saving money for my future goals and dating cost with my gf every time i go out on a date.
Lastly, i support foreign players/community giving them feedbacks, replays, etc about what they are doing wrong. I also congratz and root for them to win tourneys that i was not allowed to play. Btw, can you please use spaces and separate lines cuz sometimes its hard to understand your thoughts.
Why can't you admit that you have an advantage ? Seriously we both know it's the truth, you are smart and you know it but just don't wanna admit it in front of your fans.
Saying to eon his training is shit and he could be so much better if he trained like you did made me laugh.
Flash came back after 2 or 3years playing no bw and only sc2 and he is already wayyy better than you. You know why ? He trained more efficiently than you, it must be that. Same for all pros that came back, they had no advantage over you, you just didn't train efficiently, must be that right ?
Go talk to him and admit tesagi. Thats what you are literally doing ro me. Otherwise i am gonna act the same as others. That euro logic.
Flash was in a proteam and practiced with their team members all day long. i practiced with players with limited online good users. You are comparing shit that doesnt have same circumstances.
Can someone do the common and difference list between foreign top users and scan? If i do it then they think i am not admitting shit.
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
I played cheesy and 2 base macro only 2009. Why? I know i havent absorbed modern trends. I did the same thing as you did to learn from proleague, osl, and msl. They didnt have individual stream servers like twitch and stuff.
Dont get your idea wrong. There are only 1 big event(asl) in korea that is opened for all users. I also participate clanleagues that KaL leaders are managing players. Idk why you think that i dont participate lan tours. Also you assume there are tons of minor offline tours for some reason. We dont have it.
The amount of ur games played for 3 months is like 1000 games or close to it(add iccup stats with your fish ladder). Quite not sure why you are talking about multiple fish accounts. If you pretty much spend your time efficiently to improve significantly im sure you couldve moved into a next level. Playing offrace in iccup and other stuff. Im not forcing you to 'git gud.' Im just a casual gamer/streamer just like everyone else. I do the same thing just like you do in iccup. Playing offrace, some coaching vods for viewers, playing with subsribers and etc.
Whats the problem of hosting no prize money tour? Dont you guys have ego and always love to compare x player vs y player, whos better, right? Also, please read my comment again. I never fking said to kenzy to host.
Not only europeans are caring about foreign community. I also care about it. Given away a lot of suggestions, but some people are just completely stubborn and fk you it wont work. Isnt it pretty much about NATO then?
Practicing environment. I had all the same situation as every foreigners had problems playing with korean up to 2016. I lagged with ppl who used lowlatency hack, and they chose not to play with. Of course i had a better ping, connection and higher chance to find games, but it wont change a fact that i had the same struggle. You guys and everyone have access to login fish server to find good quality games.
I dont make a living off by winning every tours. But it definitely helps with saving money for my future goals and dating cost with my gf every time i go out on a date.
Lastly, i support foreign players/community giving them feedbacks, replays, etc about what they are doing wrong. I also congratz and root for them to win tourneys that i was not allowed to play. Btw, can you please use spaces and separate lines cuz sometimes its hard to understand your thoughts.
Why can't you admit that you have an advantage ? Seriously we both know it's the truth, you are smart and you know it but just don't wanna admit it in front of your fans.
Saying to eon his training is shit and he could be so much better if he trained like you did made me laugh.
Flash came back after 2 or 3years playing no bw and only sc2 and he is already wayyy better than you. You know why ? He trained more efficiently than you, it must be that. Same for all pros that came back, they had no advantage over you, you just didn't train efficiently, must be that right ?
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what his advantage over you is. Why can't you just admit that he's better than you at this game? What if you had all the resources he had, and still couldn't beat him? Would that further prove his point?
On June 14 2017 23:17 Alpha-NP- wrote: The community won't come up with an answer to this issue. It will just be half thinking one way and the other half thinking the opposite. I saw the same thing about whether or not people should allow maps to be unprotected. They made 100 pages of debate and to this day it's undecided whether it is wrong.
My personal belief is that Koreans and Korean-Americans/Korean-Russians etc should be banned from foreign tournaments. It's like taking a beginning Spanish class when you are Mexican American and grew up speaking Spanish.
Korean-Americans have an unfair advantage because they have korean websites like teamliquid and twitch that they can get better help than what we can learn.
Sorry Scan, but I don't know why he prides himself in winning non-Koreans. It's like an able bodied man taking pride in beating a handicap player.
Yes. They are pretty much NATO(No Action Talk Only). Don't forget that i studied in the state and split my time to play games. Many people think that I got lots of feedback/share thoughts when i was improving. Hell no to that statement because no one really discusses about it when you get into high level games. They just absorb player's styles/b.o like a sponge to get better.
I believe in matters of mindset when you are learning to get better at something. No emotions whatsoever. Just like Google Deepmind Alphago. Retired playing Go with 68-1 stats, rank 1.
Hey Alphago:i didnt really want to comment on this thread but u killed me. first for all u were already a very high lvl player when u moved to the US.i remember back then that u used to tell u were part of SKT1 B team and u had a semi pro license.,but i think it was a lie.then later on u admited to be practise partner of some proteam.u were accused of maphack in TSL2 this is how good u were already to people suspect something like this.in 2009 there was not streams.not progamers.anything.every foreigner.(atleast me) what i did back then was to look for proleague games and copy strat and get visual strats of everything.and 1 time x year get replays of progamers in WCG.now here is where u are light years above us.i remember also in 2009 i was B- rank zerg bad stats on iccup and u reached A- with every race.i myself dled your zerg replaypack to learn.and this is pretty much the same for every korean user.and this is how it works.the problem is that we have here beliebers that think everything is magic and what no.in 2017 u can say everything is done to any new corner gets into the game without troubles and learn more.but not everyone is gonna play with 7 8 10 accounts on fish.Dont get me wrong u are very skilled player,and u put lot of effort and like sziky said with a big scene like the korean one where u can go to lans starleagues and countless tourneys your choice is to wake up 4 am to play in a tourney full of Foreigners with 1 korean.2 koreans in the begin.Sonstar that most of his losses were by walk over.so dont talk here about mindset and with a sinical recommendation to kenzy to host non prize tourneys for foreigners.We actually have them.iccup tours and defiler gaz tours.and i everytime i can i play all of them and sometimes challenge koreans participating.i know you dont care about the complains.but like said trutacz,and the others that care about our very small community watching that everyweekend the player pool is dropping and dropping.We complained about the koreans,organizers told us that the tourneys are to support BW so is open for all.they said.if you dont come to tourneys we will cancel them and thats all.Is just so sad that everyone only looks in one Direction.not everything is white and black.winning 4 tourneys x month doesnt gonna pay rent oy car or food,u are not gonnna make a living from BW.stop telling us is all about the money.Scan is in the range of semipro-progamers. he used to train with progamers.on ladder he plays CBA.foreigners play vs FEDC with lag.We cant even complain about Scans lag cuz he is the better player,is not like we are gonna win if played non lag games.But mad respect for Scan.im the first to root for him when he tries to qualify for ASL or when he plays on CHina events.
I played cheesy and 2 base macro only 2009. Why? I know i havent absorbed modern trends. I did the same thing as you did to learn from proleague, osl, and msl. They didnt have individual stream servers like twitch and stuff.
Dont get your idea wrong. There are only 1 big event(asl) in korea that is opened for all users. I also participate clanleagues that KaL leaders are managing players. Idk why you think that i dont participate lan tours. Also you assume there are tons of minor offline tours for some reason. We dont have it.
The amount of ur games played for 3 months is like 1000 games or close to it(add iccup stats with your fish ladder). Quite not sure why you are talking about multiple fish accounts. If you pretty much spend your time efficiently to improve significantly im sure you couldve moved into a next level. Playing offrace in iccup and other stuff. Im not forcing you to 'git gud.' Im just a casual gamer/streamer just like everyone else. I do the same thing just like you do in iccup. Playing offrace, some coaching vods for viewers, playing with subsribers and etc.
Whats the problem of hosting no prize money tour? Dont you guys have ego and always love to compare x player vs y player, whos better, right? Also, please read my comment again. I never fking said to kenzy to host.
Not only europeans are caring about foreign community. I also care about it. Given away a lot of suggestions, but some people are just completely stubborn and fk you it wont work. Isnt it pretty much about NATO then?
Practicing environment. I had all the same situation as every foreigners had problems playing with korean up to 2016. I lagged with ppl who used lowlatency hack, and they chose not to play with. Of course i had a better ping, connection and higher chance to find games, but it wont change a fact that i had the same struggle. You guys and everyone have access to login fish server to find good quality games.
I dont make a living off by winning every tours. But it definitely helps with saving money for my future goals and dating cost with my gf every time i go out on a date.
Lastly, i support foreign players/community giving them feedbacks, replays, etc about what they are doing wrong. I also congratz and root for them to win tourneys that i was not allowed to play. Btw, can you please use spaces and separate lines cuz sometimes its hard to understand your thoughts.
Why can't you admit that you have an advantage ? Seriously we both know it's the truth, you are smart and you know it but just don't wanna admit it in front of your fans.
Saying to eon his training is shit and he could be so much better if he trained like you did made me laugh.
Flash came back after 2 or 3years playing no bw and only sc2 and he is already wayyy better than you. You know why ? He trained more efficiently than you, it must be that. Same for all pros that came back, they had no advantage over you, you just didn't train efficiently, must be that right ?
Actually I think that's 100% right. Flash for a long time had no gf, no attachments, no responsibility, and had the sole focus of training for Starcraft. And if Eon's training is not enough, it could be because the majority of players are now older and have life/jobs/family to focus on and also must work for an income. Flash returns and gets paid everyday to train.
I don't pair Scan in the same category as Kespa players for the same reason. He too is someone that has to earn cash alternatively too streaming 24/7 for income. In Scan's case, he is just really talented and took advantage of the time where he could do nothing but play SC. But that is not Scan's current situation and he doesn't have access to unlimited practice hours.
In regards to foreign players, I think foreign players could have the opportunity to train to a higher level if 1. They were able to make more money on the scene which would help justify the extra hours of practice over sleep/life 2. Were younger then 18 when sleep doesn't matter and you can literally play your heart out as much as possible in order to get better at the game. As an organizer, my goal is to help #1 become achievable so that it will create an environment that will raise the skill level of veterans.
There is a thread in broodwar section, where TeamLiquid community translates Korean Progamers' VODs. There was only 1 protoss content of Stork, but I learnt so much from it. For example, how many minerals u save by taking away 1 probe from gas, from not scouting with a probe, how to estimate terran's strategy based on its army, how many gateways u need having 1, 2 or 3 bases, how to use your shuttle with reaver in certain situations. I could go on. Just a single video gave me so much knowledge. Single video.
I play instinctively. One game in a certain situation I will have 3 gateways, in other 5, because I have no knowledge. Koreans just know things. They know how to react to a given situation. Meanwhile we, foreigners, are just guessing the correct answer to a given situation.
This game is about knowledge. The player with better decision making skills wins the game. That's why 200 apm user can defeat 500 apm user.
If you guys want any chance to stop this thread from getting closed, then you need to stop making personal arguments. This thread should not be about "Scan vs rest of the world". There are some legitimate things to discuss on this topic, most of them are laid out in the original post. Focus on those things, instead of attacking each other for personal reasons.
Im starting to believe only koreans cant see this.imagine you are watching a french movie without knowing french.and then i will compare your thouht about the movie with a person that speak french. Now imagine you are in korea 10 years ago watching proleague osl msl mbc ogn showsin your tv and going to pc bangs to train.is still not clear?
On June 15 2017 01:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Im starting to believe only koreans cant see this.imagine you are watching a french movie without knowing french.and then i will compare your thouht about the movie with a person that speak french. Now imagine you are in korea 10 years ago watching proleague osl msl mbc ogn showsin your tv and going to pc bangs to train.is still not clear?
Why should Koreans, or Scan be banned for having access to resources that you don't? In what way is it his fault for knowing Korean and having access to information that you don't because you don't know Korean? You want to ban someone and hold it against them for knowing Korean? Really?
On June 15 2017 01:34 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you guys want any chance to stop this thread from getting closed, then you need to stop making personal arguments. This thread should not be about "Scan vs rest of the world". There are some legitimate things to discuss on this topic, most of them are laid out in the original post. Focus on those things, instead of attacking each other for personal reasons.
I gave them a solution, but then personally attacking me. Idk. I kinda want tl staff to lock the thread. People are here pretty much NATO imo.
On June 15 2017 01:42 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Listen,if you are going to play this ping pong game i will just better pass.
Coming up with a reasonable response to your claim is ping pong? You're a great player and I respect you for your skills, but your logic is flawed bro.
On June 15 2017 01:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Im starting to believe only koreans cant see this.imagine you are watching a french movie without knowing french.and then i will compare your thouht about the movie with a person that speak french. Now imagine you are in korea 10 years ago watching proleague osl msl mbc ogn showsin your tv and going to pc bangs to train.is still not clear?
Seriously man just learn Korean and practice hard, then rematch vs Scan and try to proof your argument. The language barrier thing is so stupid, nothing is keeping you from doing this. In Sports some people start at the bottom, they have to climb more steps than others to reach the same goal. Scans mother tongue is Korean, so he didn´t start at the bottom to reach the same goal, but that´s just life. If the only Argument you can bring up for this is the language barrier, than I can´t validate this cause at all. I study near eastern archaelogy. Besides English there´s French, German, Italian and so on. Knowing more than 1 or 2 of these Languages give´s you so much more Information about all the important topics of this field. But never have I heard someone decent and knowledgable complain about this, it´s just the way it is and that´s why I´m learning as much Italian and French as I can so that I have a chance at landing a job in this field and knowing as much as I can. At first you do not think about it, but it´s a central part of my studies now.
Is not reasonable and we re not going anywhere cuz you re looking to one place,and we are going to keep going in circles telling the same over and over,so i just better,pass.
Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant
In theory you're right, its not complicated. But people disgusted by Scan's participation will still watch it and bitch around. Players will be unhappy but will participate, because any tour is better than no-tour. That's the reality. Organizer can either adjust himself to the position he is in, or prepare for inevitable hatred directed at Scan and organizers. These are facts. Thinking any different may lead into disappointment.
On June 15 2017 01:57 Bonyth wrote: In theory you're right, its not complicated. But people disgusted by Scan's participation will still watch it and bitch around. Players will be unhappy but will participate, because any tour is better than no-tour. That's the reality. Organizer can either adjust himself to the position he is in, or prepare for inevitable hatred directed at Scan and organizers. These are facts. Thinking any different may lead into disappointment.
Disappointment and the loss of events. At the end of the day, it is on the players to act like adults. The event organizers can just (if you'll forgive the expression) take their ball and go home.
edit: I mean, read what you wrote. That, to me, is a completely insane stance to take. Event organizers may change their events if their goals are not being met, but that is their decision. The most effective way to get an event organizer to change what they do is to not participate. If enough people dont participate, they will either shut down or change - it's easy. Well, or they'll be stubborn and decide they're happy with the reduced participation.
Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc. (Note: I am not saying these posers themselves are racist dumb or illogical, merely that their arguments were)
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant
I stressed this too. I've already mentioned to certain players that this is affecting future sponsorship. It saddens me to think of potential sponsors/events I've already lost because of the viciousness of this and other threads of recent. It's not just the players, but the repliers too that have caused this. Although, I'm not disheartened by these threads and the many lost hours of work I've put into things that now cannot happen. Sometimes when your left with salt in your mouth you have to spit it out. I know personally I just have to work that much harder to overcome the adversity this arguing has caused.
On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant
You came with a very "american attitude" (i don't know if it's the good term, but i don't know how to say that, please don't be offended). You did a tournament that worked on another game (sc2 if i'm right) and you thought you knew everything about organize tournaments because yours, on sc2, were successful and you didn't learn about community or listen from her. But you know what ? Every community is different, and what could work on sc2 could possibly not work on bw.
We have already done thousands of tournaments, and we know what's good and what isn't, we sometimes disagree, but there are compromises, but you didn't even want to listen or understand our points, because you thought you knew better than us.
It remind me a lot of Magic the Gathering, i'm a competitive player in this game, and lately (1year ago), they changed some rules about tournaments, to apply what worked in america to all the world but guess what ? It failed, because mentality in europe aren't the same and we don't have the same pool of player. And what you are doing is pretty much the same.
On June 15 2017 01:57 Bonyth wrote: In theory you're right, its not complicated. But people disgusted by Scan's participation will still watch it and bitch around. Players will be unhappy but will participate, because any tour is better than no-tour. That's the reality. Organizer can either adjust himself to the position he is in, or prepare for inevitable hatred directed at Scan and organizers. These are facts. Thinking any different may lead into disappointment.
Disappointment and the loss of events. At the end of the day, it is on the players to act like adults. The event organizers can just (if you'll forgive the expression) take their ball and go home.
I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
On June 15 2017 02:09 KenZy wrote: You came with a very "american attitude" (i don't know if it's the good term, but i don't know how to say that, please don't be offended). You did a tournament that worked on another game (sc2 if i'm right) and you thought you knew everything about organize tournaments because yours, on sc2, were successful and you didn't learn about community or listen from her. But you know what ? Every community is different, and what could work on sc2 could possibly not work on bw.
We have already done thousands of tournaments, and we know what's good and what isn't, we sometimes disagree, but there are compromises, but you didn't even want to listen or understand our points, because you thought you knew better than us.
It remind me a lot of Magic the Gathering, i'm a competitive player in this game, and lately (1year ago), they changed some rules about tournaments, to apply what worked in america to all the world but guess what ? It failed, because mentality in europe aren't the same and we don't have the same pool of player. And what you are doing is pretty much the same.
but at the end of the day, its my money? If I want to throw a brood war tournament with a $1000 cash prize that only allows players whose names start with the letter Q, that's my prerogative. Will it do well? Probably not, but that's on ME.
big joke when people said ''u have same chance'' as scan or other korean. Of course, who does not Did nothing To have a chance win any C level players said easy u lazy and mentality bad. FACT im never better scan or other but We look forward to the miracle!! and wait when It will be enough more player for. There were people Who have seen it 5 years ago But they are always smart. That is to explain ur not talk tactics progamer house and u not search 10x easyst search game like me (other high lat 50% not play now have good lat for vpn but turn rate 12 16(big lag) or sry.) and I could list It's offensive. But this is ok I'm just begging not to say u have same chance. problem is here But relax all There will be others who understand. otherwise im not understand why need Talk about it racis and bad feeling i stop tour sponzor and more we have one point u have other ok good gg.
On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise.
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. And that's saying something.
Surely the "social justice" people would *not* want Scan to be banned? Also, no one on the side of banning Koreans have mentioned race at all and it would be clear to a 6 year old reading their arguments that it's not about race. So please, stop spouting nonsense about racism and take your social justice elsewhere, where it's actually needed.
On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise.
Problems:
Not many players in community to begin with
Nobody cares about the regions from a viewer perspective. Only a few vocal social justice BW players in here are complaining
Tournament organizers like Filthy (just judging by his posts here) don't really care about regions, and just want a tournament where anyone can join
On June 15 2017 02:17 ninazerg wrote: REGIONS, PEOPLE. Regions.
On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise.
Problems:
Not many players in community to begin with
Nobody cares about the regions from a viewer perspective. Only a few vocal social justice BW players in here are complaining
Tournament organizers like Filthy (just judging by his posts here) don't really care about regions, and just want a tournament where anyone can join
On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
Spnsor tourneys doesnt give u the right to call us assholes and telling fuck you,calm down,i think i was very respectful at every comment i made
On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
Totally reasonable responses too. If I was the owner of your tournament I'd be livid with how everything transpired. I regret not stepping in earlier to help support your side of things. I've been too distracted by lilDagger (my baby, not an innuendo).
On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
Spnsor tourneys doesnt give u the right to call us assholes and telling fuck you,calm down,i think i was very respectful at every comment i made
He's not attacking you personally, just expressing his disappointment when he wanted this to be a fun thing for everyone. It's okay for him to be upset. Let's just move on from this point.
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. And that's saying something.
Surely the "social justice" people would *not* want Scan to be banned? Also, no one on the side of banning Koreans have mentioned race at all and it would be clear to a 6 year old reading their arguments that it's not about race. So please, stop spouting nonsense about racism and take your social justice elsewhere, where it's actually needed.
The posters are claiming that by banning Scan or Koreans they can bolster the BW community and help it grow. That is also social justice. Plus, I wasn't the first person to even bring this "social justice" point up. There are other posters who did so before me. I don't see you quoting them. Why not?
As for the racism thing, if you carefully read my post, I said "come off as racist", or "seems racist". Posts in this thread can come off, or seem that way because Korea is both a country and Korean is an ethnicity. I am not the only poster to point this kind of thing out, many others have long before me.
So what are you really mad about? I'm not really sure what the point of your post is, other than a big "NO YOU". It just sort of seems like you didn't really read my post or the rest of the thread.
Edit: Actually no some of the guys in here are racist lol:
On June 14 2017 14:59 sertman wrote: In all honesty, Koreans might have a very small genetic advantage (we're talking maybe 1-2% of the reason that Koreans dominate) - it's not out of the question that the specific brain mechanisms necessary to succeed at high-level video games have for whatever reason been favored in Korean culture for generations - however, the advantages are overwhelmingly the result of culture. I do have doubts to the effect of culture on the mechanical mastery that Koreans seem to show across games, but far be it from me to assert some inherent quality leading to this dominance.
I don't mind having foreigner-only tournaments. I love basketball but the Olympics are boring to me because I know the USA will crush every team up until the finals. Same with the old WCG tournaments, where it was essentially uninteresting until the Koreans inevitably played each other.
I haven't seen a compelling argument in this thread for letting Koreans play against people who haven't been steeped in BW culture for the last two decades.
I think the implications (or perceived implications) in the term "social justice warriors" will likely take the conversation into waters that we don't wish to sail. It would be better to avoid labeling each other altogether and focus on the facts.
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. And that's saying something.
Surely the "social justice" people would *not* want Scan to be banned? Also, no one on the side of banning Koreans have mentioned race at all and it would be clear to a 6 year old reading their arguments that it's not about race. So please, stop spouting nonsense about racism and take your social justice elsewhere, where it's actually needed.
The posters are claiming that by banning Scan or Koreans they can bolster the BW community and help it grow. That is also social justice. Plus, I wasn't the first person to even bring this point up. There are other posters who did so before me. I don't see you quoting them. Why not?
As for the racism thing, if you carefully read my post, I said "come off as racist", or "seems racist". Posts in this thread can come off, or seem that way because Korea is both a country and Korean is an ethnicity. I am not the only poster to point this kind of thing out, many others have long before me.
So what are you really mad about? I'm not really sure what the point of your post is.
That's not social justice lol. If anything, that's the opposite of social justice.
The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of your post (and this argument in general) and put a stop to it before it spreads any further. If you can't assess the situation of the discussion here and come up with something meaningful to say, then you shouldn't post at all.
On June 15 2017 02:28 ninazerg wrote: I think the implications (or perceived implications) in the term "social justice warriors" will likely take the conversation into waters that we don't wish to sail. It would be better to avoid labeling each other altogether and focus on the facts.
You're probably right, in that we don't want to sail there. But I call em as I see em. And to me and some other posters here, it looks to be the case that we got some "warriors" on our hand. And maybe that is the real problem -- not that Scan is winning all the tournaments. It's just an idea.
I agree so much with ninazerg - COMPROMISE is the key word here. If there is no compromise, both sides loses. And that's exactly what happened. It was only in organizer's and Scan's power to change the course of action. Had Scan participated every 2nd tournament, he could have gotten more minerals out of it in the long term, he would have became a hero and would be seen as a decent man. Had organizers bow down to the demands, he would be a happy man and there would be nothing but positive feedback. PRIDE is what denied it in the 2nd case.
On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
It's not really fair of you to say that now because that's what we were telling you. If you had tell us: "don't come and if there are less than 10 or 8 players it will be foreigner one week and the other free for all", i can assure you that we wouldn't have participated and things would be all fine (because almost all participants are players who were "mad"). But you didn't tell us that and just told us "That's my money i do what i want"...
PS : Can you ban/mod CecileSunkure, he is clearly out of hid mind and the discussion is way too complex for him.
On June 15 2017 02:34 Bonyth wrote: I agree so much with ninazerg - COMPROMISE is the key word here. If there is no compromise, both sides loses. And that's exactly what happened. It was only in organizer's and Scan's power to change the course of action. Had Scan participated every 2nd tournament, he could have gotten more minerals out of it in the long term, he would have became a hero and a decent man. Had organizers bow down to the demands, he would be a happy man and there would be nothing but positive feedback. PRIDE is what denied it in the 2nd case.
Well, pride and the fact that it was, you know.. *my* money being paid out.
Anyway, that's all from me. I said my 2c - you can all continue on with your lively debate
On June 15 2017 02:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of your post (and this argument in general) and put a stop to it before it spreads any further. If you can't assess the situation of the discussion here and come up with something meaningful to say, then you shouldn't post at all.
But you didn't explain why any of it was ridiculous. Did I say something factually wrong? Or was an argument incorrect? Why are you saying it's not helpful, or that I can't assess the situation?
I've already explained all my reasons in this thread, and my last post had a point I'm pretty sure is valid: The butthurt posters in here trying to ban people aren't going to listen to anything other than carefully crafted troll posts. The point even had a backup argument: lots of reasonable posters have already come in here pointing out in detail why banning certain people is silly, and how ridiculous this whole thing is -- so clearly these angry posters in here are just not listening to the reason. There's no response at all. Not even a simple "I get your points, but I disagree for this reason" kind of thing. Nothing.
And you know what? I actually got a lot of good feedback from that trollish style right here in this thread. I get zero good feedback for the kind of post I'm writing right now. Nobody is applauding my arguments, or PMing me thanking me for expressing my opinion. When I posted a giant troll post, nobody called me ignorant. When I write posts like these all my reasonable points are ignored. I'm called ignorant, or stupid, or people point out how I'm "not smart". People ask for mods to ban me when I write out my arguments.
I admit, my post was completely loaded and very disagreeable. But that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect, or un-called for. I mean, this is a super heated thread both ways.
Edit: Look here's an example. Earlier in this thread I had a very reasonable, but brief discussion with Kenzy, and I calmly explained my reasoning. But then no response. Just an example on how one of my reasonable points were ignored. There are many other posts like this from many other posters just ignored.
And here is the eventual response:
On June 15 2017 02:35 KenZy wrote: PS : Can you ban/mod CecileSunkure, he is clearly out of hid mind and the discussion is way too complex for him.
These guys aren't responding to any of the arguments that point out how silly the thread is. Instead they focus on targeting tournament organizers, appealing to "loyalty" or "old members", ask to ban specific people when they don't get their way, etc.
Edit Edit: Here 2pac. I've looked up the definition of social justice on google, first result is:
justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society
Is this not *exactly* what these guys here want? They want to ban Scan or "Koreans" in order to have a more "fair" tournament? As in spreading the prize money around.
And by that definition, I am absolutely not performing social justice here in this thread.
The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
Woah it's like crazy that I have a video for this, no?
No it's actually not crazy! Cause... this has been going on for months.
"What do the TO's want" I've answered it 50000000 times. "They should make changes" I am making some small changes to my tour which I've been talking to Trutacz about, not registration though, that stays open.
Also I find it funny I've posted i think 2-3 times and everyone just ignores me.
Whatevs, I'm tired of you all fighting over $100 tournaments. Gonna be fun when real $$$ hits this scene, if it ever does.
(Btw the rule about HAY Registration status in that video doesn't apply here. Only applies to people talking in the HAY Thread/HAY Chat)
On June 15 2017 02:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of your post (and this argument in general) and put a stop to it before it spreads any further. If you can't assess the situation of the discussion here and come up with something meaningful to say, then you shouldn't post at all.
But you didn't explain why any of it was ridiculous. Did I say something factually wrong? Or was an argument incorrect? Why are you saying it's not helpful, or that I can't assess the situation?
I've already explained all my reasons in this thread, and my last post had a point I'm pretty sure is valid: The butthurt posters in here trying to ban people aren't going to listen to anything other than carefully crafted troll posts. The point even had a backup argument: lots of reasonable posters have already come in here pointing out in detail why banning certain people is silly, and how ridiculous this whole thing is -- so clearly these angry posters in here are just not listening to the reason.
And you know what? I actually got a lot of good feedback from that trollish style right here in this thread.
I admit, my post was completely loaded and very disagreeable. But that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect, or un-called for. I mean, this is a super heated thread both ways.
Edit: Look here's an example. Earlier in this thread I had a very reasonable, but brief discussion with Kenzy, and I calmly explained my reasoning. But then no response. Just an example on how one of my reasonable points were ignored. There are many other posts like this from many other posters just ignored.
On June 15 2017 02:35 KenZy wrote: PS : Can you ban/mod CecileSunkure, he is clearly out of hid mind and the discussion is way too complex for him.
These guys aren't responding to any of the arguments that point out how silly the thread is. Instead they focus on targeting tournament organizers, appealing to "loyalty" or "old members", ask to ban specific people when they don't get their way, etc.
On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
On June 15 2017 02:09 KenZy wrote: We have already done thousands of tournaments, and we know what's good and what isn't
No you don't. Yes there are people who are bored by Scan winning every tour who might not continue to watch the tournament and maybe these people constantly complain on the players stream so you think it is a big problem.
However you fail to see all the damage this discussion is causing. I personally stopped following the foreign scene for a long time after the same discussion took place during TLC times. I know one friend who thought the same and Baku basically also said that this discussion made him lose interest in the foreigner scene. Viewer numbers for TLC were also the highest in the beginning when Scan was still allowed to participate.
More importantly the annoying discussion has just driven the biggest sponsor away from BW. How can you or Trutaacz still say that you know what is best for the scene?
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
I hope you realize that encouraging an all-inclusive BW tournament by mocking people who want region-restricted tournaments in a really ridiculous and aggravating way is the absolute definition of Social Justice. You are essentially advocating for social justice for Scan. I mean you literally just projected your entire personality onto people who would prefer to watch non-Koreans play each other. You should probably get your own shit together before presenting yourself as secure enough to be satirical.
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
I know that you are trying to sound smart, but trust me, you're really, really, really not. It's amazing how people barely speaking their own language judge people speaking more than three, moreover on matters they obviously have no insight on. If you are talking about toxicity again, please look at your own posts. It always needs two sides to really get a shit storm rolling.
Directed @FilthyTour Orga:
Sorry I mixed you up. However, get used to people "complaining". Keep in mind those guys are not native speakers. I had similar struggles with the Russians and eOn in particular when hosting events as well. Half of what is said is meant as "matter of fact", not as "you suck and should go and die". Also, most of what they say has a basis and is very often meant to improve your efforts, even though it comes across as the opposite.
It would have been healthy for you to have things explained by someone like 2pac when it comes to the Scan-business, because that really is a chapter of its own, as you sadly had to witness first hand.
If you are to host future events involving the Europeans (unrelated to Brood War), the most crucial factor is to find better starting times, even when it's really uncomfortable to you. PDT times are really nasty, especially for the Eastern Parts of Europe - the tour start is still ok, but the longer it progresses, the faster you will finish games past midnight. (Now think of how demotivating it would be if you were someone in Moscow losing your second game at 1 am against Scan in the first round, because the grid wasn't in your favour).
For BW specifically: The modern BW scene, and this is to a large part their own fault, does not really adapt to new tour pages easily. Also, a rotation of maps and theme tours greatly improve activity from lower ranks.
What really benefits you is transparency. If you feel people complain, just issue a statement, no matter how short. People will still be talking about it, but the tone will eventually die down to a whisper.
lastly: I get that you are pissed (believe me), but pointing fingers and talking about sponsors and whatnot comes across extremely childish. You deserve more dignitiy for what you tried to do.
On June 15 2017 02:44 EndingLife wrote: The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
You didn't read what we were saying then, or didn't make any effort to understand. Because we clearly stated that we didn't want to ban Scan or Korean to all our tournaments but to have some of them for foreigners only from time to time, and we explained what we wanted that, that's all.
On June 15 2017 02:49 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you think the thread is silly, then it just goes to show you don't really understand the discussion here. Not sure if you've missed it, but you should read my earlier post here to get deeper insight on what we're discussing here (or well, *should* be discussing here ^^): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/523851-should-we-ban-koreans-from-tournaments?page=11#210
Just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand. The thing is, I don't think the topic is nuanced. At all.
On June 14 2017 22:15 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyway, to stay on topic, what it boils down to is that organizers should define the goal of their tournament and then implement policies that you, as an organizer, think will help you reach that goal. You want an open tournament? Don't ban koreans/chinese. You want a "foreign"-only tournament? Ban koreans/chinese. But be careful, there are a lot of edge cases which you have to take into account. Eg. Koreans living outside Korea or foreigners living inside Korea. Also, as an organizer, you need to be clear about your intentions and provide clear explanations behind your decisions. Are you banning Koreans/Chinese because of the potential latency issues? Language barrier? Because they's simply too good? How do you even define a "foreigner'? Even when you lay down all your rules in the most clear way possible, there will still be some edge cases that you'll have to handle specially (see nongminzerg situation in TSL). I feel like schamtoo/filthy didn't do most of these things, which is very understandable. They're both new to the BW scene in this capacity, and organizing a tournament is a shit ton of work, even without dealing with these nuanced issues.
A couple points. A) Pretty sure tournament organizers are not idiots, and they have the basic capacity to understand how to exclude certain players, and what that means. B) It's their money, they can do what they want. C) Many other posters have already brought A and B up before, so you making me do it yet again makes me feel sort of silly. But it seems I have to bring in these points again, otherwise I'm labelled as unintelligent, or incapable of understanding nuance, or ignorant.
This is not me missing the nuance, but just disagreeing with it.
On June 15 2017 03:01 sertman wrote: I hope you realize that encouraging an all-inclusive BW tournament by mocking people who want region-restricted tournaments in a really ridiculous and aggravating way is the absolute definition of Social Justice. You are essentially advocating for social justice for Scan. I mean you literally just projected your entire personality onto people who would prefer to watch non-Koreans play each other. You should probably get your own shit together before presenting yourself as secure enough to be satirical.
Responded to this idea already (do you disagree with my response at all? I'm open to talk more about it):
On June 15 2017 02:36 CecilSunkure wrote: I've looked up the definition of social justice on google, first result is:
justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society
Is this not *exactly* what these guys here want? They want to ban Scan or "Koreans" in order to have a more "fair" tournament? As in spreading the prize money around.
And by that definition, I am absolutely not performing social justice here in this thread.
On June 15 2017 02:44 EndingLife wrote: The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
You didn't read what we were saying then, or didn't make any effort to understand. Because we clearly stated that we didn't want to ban Scan or Korean to all our tournaments but to have some of them for foreigners only from time to time, and we explained what we wanted that, that's all.
So then someone of the community needs to step it up. Filthy didn't create a series only for foreigners so someone else needs to do it.
Fun fact: Filthy would have done exactly this eventually if he wouldn't have been bullied out of the scene.
i understand the players frustation , as a tennis fan , i would be bored if some top 200 atp player came and won all the tournements (with some prize) in my country (which is bad for both players and viewers)
On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play?
Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance".
So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win
are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this
Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand.
If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking.
If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
I gather Scan is probably at a higher level than most foreigners, but he isnt ASL material either I dont think, atleast i havent seen him at least, so while he probably shouldnt be stomping on foreigners, whoevers hosting the tournament gets the final say in who they want to play in the end.
If they want to just invite Flash and he wins(which obviously he will) knowing that he's gonna win and get all the money then so be it, its no one who didnt put anything towards the tournaments right to complain about it
On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play?
Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance".
So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win
are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this
Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand.
If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking.
If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
Well people are getting uppity because they think by banning Scan the BW community will grow. So they think the discussion has merit, because growing the BW community is a good cause. But lets be real, "growing the BW community" is just a euphemism for "getting the prize money to different players". Just like "banning koreans" is a euphemism for "banning Scan".
On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play?
Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance".
So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win
are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this
Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand.
If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking.
If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
do you watch professional sport ? players are constantly complaining towards tournement organizer yet they dont put any money
On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play?
Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance".
So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win
are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this
Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand.
If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking.
If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
do you watch professional sport ? players are constantly complaining towards tournement organizer yet they dont put any money
Tournaments where they're winning more than what was it 100$? i think. Also in something that is a career not a hobby im sure.
To me it seems like FilthyRake and Schamtoo are inexperienced with hosting tournaments, and more specifically with hosting tournaments for a game like brood war. They never played it seriously, they're new to the scene. They don't understand how large the skill gap is, regardless of why it exists. As far as I understand, they have stressed multiple times that the goal is to host a "global" tournament. Yet, when you analyze the decisions they made in regards to the logistics of hosting such a tournament with this perspective, it doesn't make sense. I'm making some assumptions here, so feel free to correct me. As far as I understand:
1. They only advertise their tournament on English websites 2. They use a very unfavourable time for Koreans (in the middle of the night) 3. The tournament is hosted on iCCup, as opposed to Fish.
2 of these points definitively conflict with wanting to host a global tournament. The 3rd point is somewhere in between. Semi-professional korean players known to occasionally play on iCCup are far and few in between (Scan, sonstar, bishop, shinee).
They might cite the casting to be a reason for hosting it at this time, but that's no excuse. You don't have to cast the games on the same day as the tournament.
Of course, it is their tournament, they can do whatever they want. But actions and decisions, have consequences. Sometimes you have to face reality. The tournaments so far are a disaster* despite having very impressive prize pools, for which I do respect them very much! Wanting to spend your hard-earned money so other people can compete and have fun with a video game comes straight from the heart, and shows they're passionate.
* 1. Drastic drop in player base despite impressize prize pool. 2. Relatively low viewer numbers 3. Lots of negative feedback and vitriol from players/viewers 4. Already demoralizing the tournament organizers
Some suggetions:
1. Straighten your priorities. Is it really a global tournament or not? 2. Don't allow players to stream games from ro16 onwards (the games you intend to cast). 3. Listen to players/viewers 4. Listen to players/viewers or stop organizing the tournaments.
It's embarrassing seeing people throwing around baseless accusations and ad hominems. Trutacz, eonzerg, bonyth,... are not racist. They're not bullies. They're not social justice warriors. They're not stupid, illogical or dumb. It's you that's intolerant of other people's views, refusing to place yourself in their shoes.
Koreans don't constitute a race, so it's impossible to be racist against Koreans. More importantly... the fact that it's Koreans is irrelevant. In an alternative universe, it might be Belgium that developed a thriving pro-scene for brood war. To make the argument more sound, also imagine we would speak a much more difficult to learn language.
It's a pretty simple position honestly. Being born and growing up in Korea, means you reside in an environment that's more productive to learning how to play Brood War. The sole reason I'm studying Korean is to be able to understand pro-streams, pro-casters, to join a korean clan so I have the opportunity to not only play with people that are much better than me, but also listen to their advice and ask them additional questions.
Anyone that dismisses being able to understand Korean as being negligible, is someone who hasn't dedicated enough time and effort to getting good at this game. Yes it is possible to become the best player in the world, even if you don't understand korean. It's also possible in my mind to invent "a computer" from scratch without relying on knowledge provided by anyone other than yourself (Yes I'm being a little bit facetious right now, I think it's fitting here to make people realize how likely it is). The point is that you literally have to reinvent the wheel if you take this approach, which is what you will be doing if you don't understand Korean or can't learn from the best of the best.
On June 15 2017 01:39 InfCereal wrote: The most confusing this about this thread is people thinking watching videos will make you a better player.
I don't want to single you out, but it's important to me so others don't start believing this. Yes, watching solid educational content will make you a better player. Yes watching pro's play the game will make you a better player. It's so vital to becoming a good player that's it's honestly blowing my mind how you could believe otherwise.
And it doesn't stop there. Some additional factors if you live in Korea:
1. No lag issues (can even play on L1 or L2 with lowlatency hack) => This is a MAJOR one.
2. Eventually when you get really good (access to the best practice partners)
To the people that say just learn korean, getter a better connection, move to korea,.. you are delusional and living in a fantasy world. Learning/mastering a language is a multi-year effort and an enormous time-sink. Getting a better connection won't allow you to play lag-free or with lowlatency hack if you don't live in Korea. Moving to Korea is not feasible. And all of this just to have the opportunity to be able to improve at a game!
On June 15 2017 03:27 B-royal wrote: Apologies in advance for the unstructured rant.
To me it seems like FilthyRake and Schamtoo are inexperienced with hosting tournaments, and more specifically with hosting tournaments for a game like brood war.
This is the only part of this I'm going to respond to, as I'm trying to stay out of this conversation.
I've run ~30 online tournaments, and about 10 LANs of varying sizes ($100 all the way up to $10k prize pools).
Yes, all of them were sc2 - I've run 9 BW online events at this point.
So I do have at least a little bit of experiencing hosting tournaments though not Brood War explicitly.
I ran a series of tournaments for Heroes of the Storm that had $2500 prizepools. I've been a caster for 5 years, so I've worked with TO's from Playhem, MLG, IPL, DreamHack, Blizzard (I've hosted a BlizzCon stage).
On June 15 2017 02:44 EndingLife wrote: The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
You didn't read what we were saying then, or didn't make any effort to understand. Because we clearly stated that we didn't want to ban Scan or Korean to all our tournaments but to have some of them for foreigners only from time to time, and we explained what we wanted that, that's all.
How didn't I read or understand you when I'm agreeing with you about tournaments for foreigners only? I clearly stated above that there should be tournaments for foreigners only. This one is not one of those, as the tournament organizers have already made that decision. I'm beginning to think that there's a language barrier preventing people from understanding others.
I think people just aren't realizing how well Scan plays compared to other foreign players. If you set up an ELO rating system or something similar and go through all the matches that have been played in tourneys, most foreign players will be ranked ~2000 and scan would be somewhere ~3000. A 3000 rated player doesn't belong in a tournament for 2000 rated players if the objective is to create a competitive tournament.
That being said, if the tournament host does not care for a competitive tournament, it is their decision to allow/disallow an ELO cap or some other form of a cutoff. But I figure, why not just skip the tournament and donate money to support Scan's stream instead Kappa
Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
On June 15 2017 04:10 iFU.pauline wrote: Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
That 100%.
Btw Scan you wanted me to answering some posts but i didn't understand clearly what was the question, can you reformulate them please ?
On June 15 2017 04:16 GoShox wrote: Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
I totally agree with you, but where did you see any insult. I assume he got insulted by some people on BW or PM but if it's the comments on those threads got him mad to the point to stop those tournaments then i don't know what to say, but it's a bit childish.
If he had told us don't play in my tournaments and if there are not enough players i'm gonna change rules we would have done that, but instead he told us "i m not gonna chance anything, deal with it". Or we didn't understand each other, i don't know.
On June 15 2017 04:16 GoShox wrote: Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
I think the most annoying thing is that every time these discussions come up, everyone just insults us. No one thinks "Hey maybe these people have a reason for doing xyz, or thinking ____". Everyone just plain and straight insults us.
On June 15 2017 04:16 GoShox wrote: Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
I think the most annoying thing is that every time these discussions come up, everyone just insults us. No one thinks "Hey maybe these people have a reason for doing xyz, or thinking ____". Everyone just plain and straight insults us.
I strongly disagree with you but i never insulted you and same for eon or trutacz. I respect what you did and are doing
On June 15 2017 04:10 iFU.pauline wrote: Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
Pretty sure a lot of people agree with you that knowing Korean and coming from Korea is an advantage. Actually pretty sure everyone here agrees with you. Also pretty sure everyone agrees that we want to mainly have fun.
But as for the idiotic improvement argument: people that respond with "git gud" just don't agree about your abuse point, or that he's killing fun.
So yeah, you have some strong observations. But that doesn't mean we have to agree with your conclusion about abuse or killing fun. So when they say "git gud", they are pointing out how they see it. They see a bunch of sour posters in here targeting tournament hosters, targeting scan, and in general whining when they could be practicing. This is also a valid observation, just like you had some valid observations. You don't have to agree with the "git gud" conclusion, just like they don't have agree with your "abuse".
On June 15 2017 04:24 KenZy wrote: I strongly disagree with you but i never insulted you and same for eon or trutacz. I respect what you did and are doing
Well, you guys better change something. Both tournament organizers came in here pissed at the behavior of you all. A bunch of other posters and players are also not happy.
When it comes down to it, tournament organizers have the money and they make the rules. You get upset and piss them off, they still have the power.
It's honestly bizarre that players or anyone else would feel like they have the right to tell people funding and running tournaments what to do.
You can say "Hey, I think your tournament might be more successful in terms of entrants and/or viewers if you did X". You can even make a thread about it on Team Liquid and discuss X and whether or not people think it would be good.
But if the person with the money says no that's it. There's no discussion. You can't treat them like some they're kind of community resource. They are their own person. It's up to them what they do with their time and money. You don't have to support it but you don't get to use them to advance your 'for the good of the game/community' goals just because you think they're worthwhile.
You're debating about whether or not you're right but it doesn't matter at all because even if you're right you still don't get to do that.
On June 15 2017 04:36 Lachrymose wrote: It's honestly bizarre that players or anyone else would feel like they have the right to tell people funding and running tournaments what to do.
You can say "Hey, I think your tournament might be more successful in terms of entrants and/or viewers if you did X". You can even make a thread about it on Team Liquid and discuss X and whether or not people think it would be good.
But if the person with the money says no that's it. There's no discussion. You can't treat them like some they're kind of community resource. They are their own person. It's up to them what they do with their time and money. You don't have to support it but you don't get to use them to advance your 'for the good of the game/community' goals just because you think they're worthwhile.
You're debating about whether or not you're right but it doesn't matter at all because even if you're right you still don't get to do that.
I agree with you but unfortunately I cannot shut everyone's mouth and people will still be talking. The only thing to do is to either go for a compromise or have a strong stomach.
On June 15 2017 02:17 ninazerg wrote: REGIONS, PEOPLE. Regions.
On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise.
Problems:
Not many players in community to begin with
Nobody cares about the regions from a viewer perspective. Only a few vocal social justice BW players in here are complaining
Tournament organizers like Filthy (just judging by his posts here) don't really care about regions, and just want a tournament where anyone can join
This thread is really spinning in circles honestly. It's much more of a "let's all mention stuff we don't like" rather than a "what do we do about wide skill gaps in tours" thread.
With regards to the whole having an advantage thing; yes. it is a nice advantage to be able to speak korean and live in Korea. It also doesn't really matter, at least is you go by any prior social precedent in sport or life. Some rich kid might grow up getting golf lessons from a professonal starting at age 4. He is still allowed to play high school golf when he is that age. A kid might have a dad that is a GM and coaches him well from a young age; said kid is not banned from playing in tournament for 12 year olds if he his 12 because of his GM dad. Kenyan runners are born with great genetics and at a high altitude which is great for long term aerobic adaptations; they are still allowed to come to US schools on scholarships, and compete in the NCAA or pro ranks.
Bottom line is that whether a player is advantaged or not doesn't matter. It's just how we accept, universally as a human species, that things work.
That said, there is one thing that is commonly done which are competitions divided by location or divided by skill. It's common to host tours for people of varying abilities. In other words you might handicap a golf tournament, or have tiered division in a race based on speed, or ELO divisions of a chess tournament.
Nina has already talked about regional concepts, and of course it would also be possible to have skill cap tournaments. I.e. you cannot enter if you're rank is above C on fish. I feel like it makes the most sense to talk about actual solutions for the perceived problem, but many people seem to be responding to or bringing up points that have nothing to do with a solution and spending time discussing why scan has an advantage or why Filthy didn't run his tournaments right...that's be hashed out to death, and is totally unhelpful in finding a working solution.
On June 15 2017 04:54 L_Master wrote: This thread is really spinning in circles honestly. It's much more of a "let's all mention stuff we don't like" rather than a "what do we do about wide skill gaps in tours" thread.
With regards to the whole having an advantage thing; yes. it is a nice advantage to be able to speak korean and live in Korea. It also doesn't really matter, at least is you go by any prior social precedent in sport or life. Some rich kid might grow up getting golf lessons from a professonal starting at age 4. He is still allowed to play high school golf when he is that age. A kid might have a dad that is a GM and coaches him well from a young age; said kid is not banned from playing in tournament for 12 year olds if he his 12 because of his GM dad. Kenyan runners are born with great genetics and at a high altitude which is great for long term aerobic adaptations; they are still allowed to come to US schools on scholarships, and compete in the NCAA or pro ranks.
Bottom line is that whether a player is advantaged or not doesn't matter. It's just how we accept, universally as a human species, that things work.
That said, there is one thing that is commonly done which are competitions divided by location or divided by skill. It's common to host tours for people of varying abilities. In other words you might handicap a golf tournament, or have tiered division in a race based on speed, or ELO divisions of a chess tournament.
Nina has already talked about regional concepts, and of course it would also be possible to have skill cap tournaments. I.e. you cannot enter if you're rank is above C on fish. I feel like it makes the most sense to talk about actual solutions for the perceived problem, but many people seem to be responding to or bringing up points that have nothing to do with a solution and spending time discussing why scan has an advantage or why Filthy didn't run his tournaments right...that's be hashed out to death, and is totally unhelpful in finding a working solution.
This is pretty much what I said in my post. I don't think it should matter where you are from but only your skill level. I think Scan's skill level is clearly a league above the top foreigners at this point and if tournament hosts want to have a competitive foreigner tournament, they should not include him. However, I also think tournament hosts should be able to decide whether or not they want a competitive tournament.
On June 15 2017 04:10 iFU.pauline wrote: Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
Doesn't playing hundreds or thousands of games every season on the fish server fall into the category of competitive gaming? How does joining a tournament where all players are welcome fall into the category of abuse?
Basically I'd be thinking of having a draft of guidelines or recommendations that could be pinned to the top for future organizers to read. They could pick up some good information, and then make a decision from there as to how/if they would like to allocate any funds they might have.
That does three things:
1) Allows organizers who may or may not be familiar with the scene to make the most informed decision possible, including information about the feelings of top players/likely tour participants and viewers.
2) Prevents the same issue that happened with FilthyRake's cups, which is that there was so much anti-"good player" talk it came across as whiny (even if some of it were well stated, legitimate concerns; this comes off as whiny in the overwhelming doses seen in FilthyRake's thread)
3) Provides an outlet for future discussions of this topic as opinions change or evolve or new tournaments are hosted that doesn't clutter up the organizers thread with negativity.
Which again brings us back to the last question that needs answering; which is directed primarily at the top players, and asks "What do you guys want in a tour?" Do you want there to be a general skillcap? Should this exist for all tours, every other tour, or some other percentage?
I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Bracket A <> Bracket B
Backet B is composed of previous winners and Bracket A is composed of everyone else.
OR
Bracket A is composed of Foreigners, Bracket B is composed of Koreans (which is kind of silly if Bracket B only contains 1 player)
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
I agree that there should be foreigner only tournaments. Just not every 2nd tournament held, as that should be up to the tournament organizers. So... you're suggesting that every single tournament organizer that holds a tournament in the future should have to make his 2nd tournament for foreigners only?
On June 15 2017 01:34 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you guys want any chance to stop this thread from getting closed, then you need to stop making personal arguments. This thread should not be about "Scan vs rest of the world". There are some legitimate things to discuss on this topic, most of them are laid out in the original post. Focus on those things, instead of attacking each other for personal reasons.
i haven't posted in this thread so far, as i was pretty sure it would go down the drain very fast and was not worth the effort. So far i sadly have to say i feel confirmed. But i will use your appeal to say what my approach would be and what i believe is the best solution:
For TO's:
- Create a clear and unmistakable category for the tournaments you run. For instance "foreigners only" "amateurs only" or even "amateurs and pro-gaming affiliated players" Make it clear what you are basing your decision on, how you define your categories and then stick to it. However, be prepared to re-evaluate if need be.
- For players: Voice your concerns in a friendlier way. I think guys like Eon Tacz, Sziky and others intend to make a meaningful contribution, but the it comes off wrong.
Regarding Haveatyou!: I would advocate for compromise here like others did. Restrict access for "pro gaming affiliated players" like Scan and Sonstar to every second event and use the Chinese rule. (offracing in every even game of a boX. In COSL a korean Pro has to pick a offrace against the chinese player in the 2nd 4th and potential 6th game of a bo7)
For Schamtoo and filthy: i know your mad and feel frustrated about the whole event. I think it's not about invalidating your experience as a TO in other games, that's pretty amazing. But Broodwar, esp. foreign scene these days has it's specifics and sometimes you need to adjust. There's a ton of experienced TO's lurking in this thread that will gladly offer advice and help. I recommend Gecko's post about specifica as i overall very much agree with his analysis.
In the spirit of constructive suggestions mine would be to introduce a cap on the number of weeks one player can win a weekly title before they cant join more in that tour or a cooldown before they can join them again. If the issue is that one player is dominating everyone else week after week this would help solve it.
Ultimately I still believe the tournament organizer is the authority on the tournament rules and petitioning or complaining about the format of the tournament until the organizer feels harassed or annoyed is not helpful to anybody.
I think that you shouldn't ban koreans from the scenes. However if you want to host tournaments with region lock that would most probably be fine too. Personally I think hosting tournaments for lower skill groups only could be fun too sadly if the number of players is too small those won't be very successful tournaments.
What would this ban even achieve? It would be a short term "solution" without it even being a solution and create an even longer term problem. Dont get me wrong, national and continental tournaments are fine, but banning one country because they are "too good" sounds lame and lazy.
- Create a clear and unmistakable category for the tournaments you run. For instance "foreigners only" "amateurs only" or even "amateurs and pro-gaming affiliated players" Make it clear what you are basing your decision on, how you define your categories and then stick to it. However, be prepared to re-evaluate if need be.
Or they can do whatever they want. They can be as clear or as vague as they want. As long as they aren't committing fraud or otherwise breaking the law it's not your call. The only thing they need to evaluate is what they want. It's not their responsibility to cater to anybody but themselves.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote: - For players: Voice your concerns in a friendlier way. I think guys like Eon Tacz, Sziky and others intend to make a meaningful contribution, but the it comes off wrong.
Or they can do whatever they want. They can be as rude and selfish as they like. They have no right to any conditions either way. It doesn't mean a damn thing how meaningful your contribution is. It's not your house. If you like a tournament play in it. If not don't.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote:Regarding Haveatyou!: I would advocate for compromise here like others did. Restrict access for "pro gaming affiliated players" like Scan and Sonstar to every second event and use the Chinese rule. (offracing in every even game of a boX. In COSL a korean Pro has to pick a offrace against the chinese player in the 2nd 4th and potential 6th game of a bo7)
No. This is actually the worst attitude in this thread. People are literally showing up with their own cupcakes to hand out and people are actually arguing with them about and who should get them. Then people come along with this kind of opinion, like the people handing out cupcakes should compromise with the people telling them how to hand them out differently. Fuck that. It's insane. Get your own cupcakes and then you can decide how to share them. Not before.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote:For Schamtoo and filthy: i know your mad and feel frustrated about the whole event. I think it's not about invalidating your experience as a TO in other games, that's pretty amazing. But Broodwar, esp. foreign scene these days has it's specifics and sometimes you need to adjust. There's a ton of experienced TO's lurking in this thread that will gladly offer advice and help. I recommend Gecko's post about specifica as i overall very much agree with his analysis.
This is so arrogant it blows my mind, honestly. "Hey, thanks for the free cupcakes but maybe next time make them better? I know some people who can do that."
Like, if you want to have detached "What's the best way of running tournaments?" discussions go nuts. But stop fucking acting like any person or tournament has any obligation to listen or compromise.
On June 15 2017 06:00 404AlphaSquad wrote: What would this ban even achieve? It would be a short term "solution" without it even being a solution and create an even longer term problem. Dont get me wrong, national and continental tournaments are fine, but banning one country because they are "too good" sounds lame and lazy.
Again, I think couching it as a national ban would be the incorrect approach. You'd either want to frame it as a regional tournament OR as a tournament with a max skill cap.
"No Koreans" tour sounds obnoxious, has a bad vibe, and isn't what you're really opposed to anyway.
Better things would be:
"EU Cup" "NA Cup"
"F-C Fish Tour"
They accomplish similar things; but are more descriptive and fair to the situation. The concern isn't koreans, scan, or any combination. It's just simply players that are too strong. If NonY showed back up and was suddenly S on fish, everyone would be clamoring for a ban just the same. Likewise, nobody cares if an F rank fish korean player shows up.
On June 15 2017 05:38 thedeadhaji wrote: > L_Master
You've reminded me that both high school and college sports generally group schools together in separate leagues based on their general strength.
They do...in a bizarre way. The general concept makes sense, in that bigger schools are likely to have more students and thus a larger, deeper talent base to draw from. However, sometimes much smaller schools happen to have a really good team and destroy their own division. Realistically, that's what it's intended to do, and is probably the best way to handle it; but I must say it's a fairly imprecise method.
That said, it definitely goes along with the motif of having tiered competition.
@Lachrymose - I agree with you. It's the organizers choice. But we've more or less established that people are on board with that. You'll obviously have a few dissenters no matter what, but the discussion has moved on to thinking about the best set of "recommend solutions" to pitch to tournament organizers about what viewers and players want. Just rehashing the old topic is not constructive at this point.
Regional tours, conceptually, sound great. I do worry the numbers would be a little small. NA/SA + EU + Asia could possibly work, I imagine anything else would be too small.
Skill limited still makes the most sense in my eyes, both logistically and because it's what I sense that really is the main concern. Individual tours should probably defer to a cap of C or B on fish (until we have ELO based ranks from BW: R anyway). For a tour series, most players seem pretty open to an alternating format of a C/B capped tour, and an "open" tour, with the open tour occurring once every two or three iterations.
On June 13 2017 21:10 esReveR wrote: It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals).
It's not because of that. Koreans are much better, even the amateurs because in that country the game was professionalized and very popular, it's known that the bigger the player base is, the highest the level of the average and top players is, and it won't change even if you learn Korean like you said. Let me give you an example: South American Soccer vs Asian Soccer. it's well known that the best soccer players and national teams have always been from south america, and that's not because we have been born with superior genes to play soccer or anything ridiculous like that. it's because soccer is incredible popular here, everyone plays it, and since the player base is so huge you can play everywhere, there are always people from all skill levels to play with, thus everyone learns quickly and you get support if you want to be really good at it, and that's why the overall skill is much better than Asian players, which countries aren't that much into soccer, and even if some of them try to be as good as the south americans, there is still that huge gap of cultural difference, which is much more supportive in south america for soccer. so even after many decades of asians playing soccer they are still not even close to south america skill level. The same thing applies for broodwar.
Edit: So having this in mind i believe it's not fair to allow koreans to play at foreigner tournaments. but what could be cool though would be to have 5 region lock tournaments for amateurs, Europe, Asia, North America, South America, and Korea. and once a year all the best players from each region would play in 1 big tournament. If SC remastered brings a lot of new players that could be very possible, but for now as the player base is so tiny everywhere except Korea, the best would be to ban Korea from foreigner tournaments
On June 13 2017 21:10 esReveR wrote: It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals).
It's not because of that. Koreans are much better, even the amateurs because in that country the game was professionalized and very popular, it's known that the bigger the player base is, the highest the level of the average and top players is, and it won't change even if you learn Korean like you said. Let me give you an example: South American Soccer vs Asian Soccer. it's well known that the best soccer players and national teams have always been from south america, and that's not because we have been born with superior genes to play soccer or anything ridiculous like that. it's because soccer is incredible popular here, everyone plays it, and since the player base is so huge you can play everywhere, there are always people from all skill levels to play with, thus everyone learns quickly and you get support if you want to be really good at it, and that's why the overall skill is much better than Asian players, which countries aren't that much into soccer, and even if some of them try to be as good as the south americans, there is still that huge gap of cultural difference, which is much more supportive in south america for soccer. so even after many decades of asians playing soccer they are still not even close to south america skill level. The same thing applies for broodwar
....
We've moved past that point of discussion, it's been hashed to death. Please try not to respond to people just because you really feel the need to rebut the point. Solutions at this point, solutions.
Bonyth and a few others have laid down some good thoughts. Would also be curious to hear from guys like Eon, TrutacZ, etc.
On June 13 2017 21:10 esReveR wrote: It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals).
It's not because of that. Koreans are much better, even the amateurs because in that country the game was professionalized and very popular, it's known that the bigger the player base is, the highest the level of the average and top players is, and it won't change even if you learn Korean like you said. Let me give you an example: South American Soccer vs Asian Soccer. it's well known that the best soccer players and national teams have always been from south america, and that's not because we have been born with superior genes to play soccer or anything ridiculous like that. it's because soccer is incredible popular here, everyone plays it, and since the player base is so huge you can play everywhere, there are always people from all skill levels to play with, thus everyone learns quickly and you get support if you want to be really good at it, and that's why the overall skill is much better than Asian players, which countries aren't that much into soccer, and even if some of them try to be as good as the south americans, there is still that huge gap of cultural difference, which is much more supportive in south america for soccer. so even after many decades of asians playing soccer they are still not even close to south america skill level. The same thing applies for broodwar
....
We've moved past that point of discussion, it's been hashed to death. Please try not to respond to people just because you really feel the need to rebut the point. Solutions at this point, solutions.
Bonyth and a few others have laid down some good thoughts. Would also be curious to hear from guys like Eon, TrutacZ, etc.
sorry but i didn't felt like spending an hour to read everything, i was just giving a response to him, and in fact i edited my comment to add something else, which i don't know if have already been typed by someone else, but there it is
Still really interested into BD's Team Foreign Allstars vs Team Ajae series. Will the foreigners cancel their participation? Or will players like trutaCz play against strong Koreans the moment they get some sure money. Will they follow everything they wrote in this thread? Or will they play the series?
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
But as many people have stated before, tournaments are not some kind of community resource that just "happen" by themselves. Suggestions should be addressed directly to the person organising and funding the tournament, and not "to the general public" in a thread like that. Every organiser will see things differently, the issue cannot be treated in a general way in here. If if a particular organiser already made his decision for a particular series of tournament, it is not any player's place, regardless of how skilled he is at BW or how long his has been involved in the foreign BW scene, to discuss that decision.
Needless to say, the title of this thread is very presumptuous. "Should we ban koreans from tournaments?" "WE", meaning who exactly? It's not up to the players nor the viewers.
Shamtoo's video that he posted in this topic just illustrates this perfectly. Did any of the players complaining actually watched his video on the subject?
On June 15 2017 02:48 SchAmToo wrote: Woah it's like crazy that I have a video for this, no?
"What do the TO's want" I've answered it 50000000 times. "They should make changes" I am making some small changes to my tour which I've been talking to Trutacz about, not registration though, that stays open.
Also I find it funny I've posted i think 2-3 times and everyone just ignores me.
Whatevs, I'm tired of you all fighting over $100 tournaments. Gonna be fun when real $$$ hits this scene, if it ever does.
(Btw the rule about HAY Registration status in that video doesn't apply here. Only applies to people talking in the HAY Thread/HAY Chat)
On June 15 2017 07:25 TheNewEra wrote: Still really interested into BD's Team Foreign Allstars vs Team Ajae series. Will the foreigners cancel their participation? Or will players like trutaCz play against strong Koreans the moment they get some sure money. Will they follow everything they wrote in this thread? Or will they play the series?
It's a different situation, because FAT vs team Ajae is a showmatch. while foreigner tournaments have a different approach, and it's not because of the money(you get really few money on BW foreigner tours), it's because of the big skill gap thanks to the advantage of the popularity of the game in korea and big player base which makes it unfair for the foreigners. it's not fun to watch or play if the difference is so huge between players from the rest of the world, against Korea(as boring as korean dominance in broodwar WCG from 2006-2010, everyone would knew that Koreans would win easily).
- Create a clear and unmistakable category for the tournaments you run. For instance "foreigners only" "amateurs only" or even "amateurs and pro-gaming affiliated players" Make it clear what you are basing your decision on, how you define your categories and then stick to it. However, be prepared to re-evaluate if need be.
Or they can do whatever they want. They can be as clear or as vague as they want. As long as they aren't committing fraud or otherwise breaking the law it's not your call. The only thing they need to evaluate is what they want. It's not their responsibility to cater to anybody but themselves.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote: - For players: Voice your concerns in a friendlier way. I think guys like Eon Tacz, Sziky and others intend to make a meaningful contribution, but the it comes off wrong.
Or they can do whatever they want. They can be as rude and selfish as they like. They have no right to any conditions either way. It doesn't mean a damn thing how meaningful your contribution is. It's not your house. If you like a tournament play in it. If not don't.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote:Regarding Haveatyou!: I would advocate for compromise here like others did. Restrict access for "pro gaming affiliated players" like Scan and Sonstar to every second event and use the Chinese rule. (offracing in every even game of a boX. In COSL a korean Pro has to pick a offrace against the chinese player in the 2nd 4th and potential 6th game of a bo7)
No. This is actually the worst attitude in this thread. People are literally showing up with their own cupcakes to hand out and people are actually arguing with them about and who should get them. Then people come along with this kind of opinion, like the people handing out cupcakes should compromise with the people telling them how to hand them out differently. Fuck that. It's insane. Get your own cupcakes and then you can decide how to share them. Not before.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote:For Schamtoo and filthy: i know your mad and feel frustrated about the whole event. I think it's not about invalidating your experience as a TO in other games, that's pretty amazing. But Broodwar, esp. foreign scene these days has it's specifics and sometimes you need to adjust. There's a ton of experienced TO's lurking in this thread that will gladly offer advice and help. I recommend Gecko's post about specifica as i overall very much agree with his analysis.
This is so arrogant it blows my mind, honestly. "Hey, thanks for the free cupcakes but maybe next time make them better? I know some people who can do that."
Like, if you want to have detached "What's the best way of running tournaments?" discussions go nuts. But stop fucking acting like any person or tournament has any obligation to listen or compromise.
FYI im giving a friendly opinion to a fellow TO here. I already discussed some of this in private. im bringing this up here as my general approach on how i would go about the situation. Stating that they can run their tour as they see fit is a nobrainer, it's self-explanatory. Then again people are often interested in a different perspective, perhaps that's new to you. So with all due respect, eat your cupcakes. I baked my fair share already.
On June 15 2017 07:25 TheNewEra wrote: Still really interested into BD's Team Foreign Allstars vs Team Ajae series. Will the foreigners cancel their participation? Or will players like trutaCz play against strong Koreans the moment they get some sure money. Will they follow everything they wrote in this thread? Or will they play the series?
It's a different situation, because FAT vs team Ajae is a showmatch. while foreigner tournaments have a different approach
Yeah but the point was that the foreigners don't want to get smashed everytime by someone who has some natural advantage over them.
Foreigners already said they don't complain because of money but because of the competition in the tournaments. Where is the difference in these events then?
It being a showmatch doesn't change the fact that they will be smashed by better Koreans just like in Filthy BW or HAY.
On June 15 2017 07:25 TheNewEra wrote: Still really interested into BD's Team Foreign Allstars vs Team Ajae series. Will the foreigners cancel their participation? Or will players like trutaCz play against strong Koreans the moment they get some sure money. Will they follow everything they wrote in this thread? Or will they play the series?
It's a different situation, because FAT vs team Ajae is a showmatch. while foreigner tournaments have a different approach
Yeah but the point was that the foreigners don't want to get smashed everytime by someone who has some natural advantage over them.
Foreigners already said they don't complain because of money but because of the competition in the tournaments. Where is the difference in these events then?
It being a showmatch doesn't change the fact that they will be smashed by better Koreans just like in Filthy BW or HAY.
the answer is in front of you, FAT vs team Ajae is a showmatch, they are playing there to have some fun against known ex pros, they know they have almost no chance to win and 99% of the time will get easily defeated, it's not something serious for them. while Have at You, Filthy Cup and any other tournament organized in TL have a different approach, it's a competition for foreigners, it's the place where they can show up their skill without getting smashed by the unfair advantage koreans have.
I believe FAT team has a strong chance to win not just a single set, but perhaps win the series. I believe Ajaes are actually weaker than Scan, even though Ajaes are living legends. Brave words I'm aware, let's see if the feeling I have is good.
With these three things, I think we'll get a little more matches between crowd favorites (Bonyth/Tru/Eon/whoever). By moving to 1.18 we attract potentially a much larger crowd. I would like help getting adverts out to Defiler/ICCUP/other forums, I'm not familiar with them.
As for "hold this tour open every two weeks, only on thursday, people with names starting in the letter Y can't play, only people in Quebec/Italy/the Moon can play." I'm not one for doing those kinds of things. It's a lot of work I don't quite have time for, and again, I think the scene is too small to start dividing up.
These may be good suggestions for future TO's to consider, and again I'll offer my help if anyone needs guidance how to make a tournament. Despite what some may think, I'm pretty good at tournaments.
On June 15 2017 08:24 SchAmToo wrote: As for "hold this tour open every two weeks, only on thursday, people with names starting in the letter Y can't play, only people in Quebec/Italy/the Moon can play." I'm not one for doing those kinds of things. It's a lot of work I don't quite have time for, and again, I think the scene is too small to start dividing up.
These may be good suggestions for future TO's to consider, and again I'll offer my help if anyone needs guidance how to make a tournament. Despite what some may think, I'm pretty good at tournaments.
Even though some of our opinions are divided, I'm sure every player and viewer appreciates what you're doing for the Brood War scene. Thank you again!
With these three things, I think we'll get a little more matches between crowd favorites (Bonyth/Tru/Eon/whoever). By moving to 1.18 we attract potentially a much larger crowd. I would like help getting adverts out to Defiler/ICCUP/other forums, I'm not familiar with them.
I think the idea of loser bracket is somewhat a compromise so i thank you for that. Allthough I'm not sure if BO1 loser bracket instead of BO3 wouldn't be better. But i will leave you to that.
By the way, I hope u don't despise us, because Im not sure what u meant with 'crowd favorites'
On June 14 2017 00:59 imp42 wrote: just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
Smartest thing that had been formulated as an arguement yet, this should stand as proof of the anti-ban arguement
On June 14 2017 00:59 imp42 wrote: just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
On June 14 2017 00:59 imp42 wrote: just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
Should we ban pegasus unicorns from little league baseball?
Somebody better anonymously buy me TL+ for this post.
On June 14 2017 00:59 imp42 wrote: just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
Should we ban pegasus unicorns from little league baseball?
Somebody better anonymously buy me TL+ for this post.
On June 14 2017 00:59 imp42 wrote: just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
Should we ban pegasus unicorns from little league baseball?
Somebody better anonymously buy me TL+ for this post.
WTF! Damn I wish I was as popular as you.
And thanks Schamtoo for everything
Agreed. I want to say how much I appreciate Schamtoo and Filthyrake right about now.
Its honestly kind of racist to just ban all koreans from the torunaments? Also foreigners could learn from koreans? Its not a flaw in the game that needs fixing that people are from parts of the world and speak different languages and cant speak to one another, the game is for pure competition so why not let the best from the foreign world go head to head against anyone korean that wants to battle them.
Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
And how long ago was this? Personally I think this argument doesn't matter. Scan's cheating times are long past him. Considering how long ago this happened and the fact that he puts more content out there to help the playerbase than a lot of foreign players I believe he has sufficiently redeemed himself (to atleast not get banned from tournaments).
IF he would get banned from tournaments it should (in my opinion) happen because a consensus was reached as a result of this discussion about his dominance, not because of his past.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
And how long ago was this? Personally I think this argument doesn't matter. Scan's cheating times are long past him. Considering how long ago this happened and the fact that he puts more content out there to help the playerbase than the next 5 foreign players combined I believe he has sufficiently redeemed himself (to atleast not get banned from tournaments).
IF he would get banned from tournaments it should (in my opinion) happen because a consensus was reached as a result of this discussion about his dominance, not because of his past.
What makes u think Scan puts more content than any of us?is the second time you say this and u re telling bullshit.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
And how long ago was this? Personally I think this argument doesn't matter. Scan's cheating times are long past him. Considering how long ago this happened and the fact that he puts more content out there to help the playerbase than the next 5 foreign players combined I believe he has sufficiently redeemed himself (to atleast not get banned from tournaments).
IF he would get banned from tournaments it should (in my opinion) happen because a consensus was reached as a result of this discussion about his dominance, not because of his past.
What makes u think Scan puts more content than any of us?is the second time you say this and u re telling bullshit.
Maybe saying more than the next 5 combined was an exagguration, but in the end I believe he puts out more content than the foreign topdogs. Sharing replays, tactics, analysing VoD's on stream, joining other community members to analyse VoD's with them, uploading content on his youtube channel. You will rarely find a foreigner do even 2 of these things.
Look the point wasn't to make you guys look bad but that I don't believe Scan should get banned because of his past because in my eyes he has redeemed himself to not get banned for the cheating he did long ago.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
And how long ago was this? Personally I think this argument doesn't matter. Scan's cheating times are long past him. Considering how long ago this happened and the fact that he puts more content out there to help the playerbase than the next 5 foreign players combined I believe he has sufficiently redeemed himself (to atleast not get banned from tournaments).
IF he would get banned from tournaments it should (in my opinion) happen because a consensus was reached as a result of this discussion about his dominance, not because of his past.
What makes u think Scan puts more content than any of us?is the second time you say this and u re telling bullshit.
It doesnt make sense to talk to internet trolls like this guy. We explain things, they just spam their nosense. I believe he is one of these kids from Scan's stream, but afraid to start bitching and bm here beacauae of possibiity to get banned, and his world where he shares his trolling will not exist anymore.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
And how long ago was this? Personally I think this argument doesn't matter. Scan's cheating times are long past him. Considering how long ago this happened and the fact that he puts more content out there to help the playerbase than the next 5 foreign players combined I believe he has sufficiently redeemed himself (to atleast not get banned from tournaments).
IF he would get banned from tournaments it should (in my opinion) happen because a consensus was reached as a result of this discussion about his dominance, not because of his past.
What makes u think Scan puts more content than any of us?is the second time you say this and u re telling bullshit.
It doesnt make sense to talk to internet trolls like this guy. We explain things, they just spam their nosense. I believe he is one of these kids from Scan's stream, but afraid to start bitching and bm here beacauae of possibiity to get banned, and his world where he shares his trolling will not exist anymore.
This response was completely uncalled for, and clearly struck a nerve. The guy didn't say a single negative thing about either of you. He was simply explaining how he viewed the situation; if you disagree with his assessment then maybe you can demonstrate how he's false by providing evidence that shows otherwise? Perhaps with links to your YouTube channels or to a YouTube video where you analyze a replay? He's not alone in thinking Scan has been more helpful to the community then other foreigners, and dismissing his view in this manner kinda' makes it look like you don't give a shit.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
And how long ago was this? Personally I think this argument doesn't matter. Scan's cheating times are long past him. Considering how long ago this happened and the fact that he puts more content out there to help the playerbase than the next 5 foreign players combined I believe he has sufficiently redeemed himself (to atleast not get banned from tournaments).
IF he would get banned from tournaments it should (in my opinion) happen because a consensus was reached as a result of this discussion about his dominance, not because of his past.
What makes u think Scan puts more content than any of us?is the second time you say this and u re telling bullshit.
It doesnt make sense to talk to internet trolls like this guy. We explain things, they just spam their nosense. I believe he is one of these kids from Scan's stream, but afraid to start bitching and bm here beacauae of possibiity to get banned, and his world where he shares his trolling will not exist anymore.
This response was completely uncalled for, and clearly struck a nerve. The guy didn't say a single negative thing about either of you. He was simply explaining how he viewed the situation; if you disagree with his assessment then maybe you can demonstrate how he's false by providing evidence that shows otherwise? He's not alone in thinking Scan has been more helpful to the community then other foreigners, and dismissing his view in this manner kinda' makes it look like you don't give a shit.
My comment was worded dumbly and I see why they would feel attacked. So I changed my original post.
The truth is, I didn't even want to talk about who puts out more content, I just wanted to say that in my eyes Scan has redeemed himself enough, that he atleast shouldn't be banned because of his past anymore.
I'm amazed though, that trutaCz can learn so much about my life just because of a post which I worded wrongly and that he felt the need to jump into this with guns blazing after I've already changed my original post.
Just take a look at the articles posted here on TL.net, or projects like Shield Battery. Do you have any concept of the hundreds and hundreds of hours that go into coding something like that? Or the tournaments hosted? Being there as an admin for hours on end all the time is also a lot of work. Plus people putting their money up for it.
In the end, it's no competition. We should be happy that there are people who are spending their free time creating things we can enjoy. May it be a youtube video analyzing a game, someone hosting a tournament, a new tool or server being coded, or the guys who spend hours writing articles about events such as ASL. After all, that's what makes a community thrive.
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
There are very few Koreans who play in foreign tournaments or with foreigners to begin with.
Wanting to ban people based on their race, besides the obviously morally wrong notions behind it also is practically same as when Koreans on Fish refuse to play foreigners.
If people want to ban Koreans so they wouldn't have to play someone who they think are stronger than them and Koreans want to ban foreigners so they wouldn't have to play someone who they think are weaker than them - then there will never have a fully established bridge between foreigners and Koreans communities.
Foreigners have a bad rep in general as far as BW goes - because even in general gaming, majority differentiates between "fun" and "competitive" as two very separate entities. Koreans on the other hand do not think of playing in a clearly wrong fashion and not improving to be acceptable as long as they enjoy it - as they're not encouraged or justified to play wrong to begin with, while we encourage any kind of play as long as people enjoy what they do. That is the real problem, not that we can't play for 10 hours a day, majority of Koreans don't play 10 hours a day either, yet they are still far ahead.
If we ever want to compete with Koreans, in any eSports, not just BW - we should drop that attitude to begin with and try to establish a bridge between foreigners and Koreans communities for future players, not destroy what little we have as it is.
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
On June 15 2017 18:05 LML wrote: Scan shouldn't be banned for the reason of being/having been in South Korea. But rather because of his past in big foreign tournaments. Someone who goes to extreme lengths to circumvent rules and to cheat in tournaments where people put a lot of time and practice into competing and organizing shouldn't be part of any further tournaments.
let's get TT1, Haypro, Doty and others outa here as well? Let bygones be bygones. All those i mentioned have been cheating on the competition and are valuable members of our community now.
Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted).
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
i was a big advocate for the idea to let Scan play in this sort of tour from point onwards where it came up in TLC's. But just repeating time and time again that "a TO can do whatever he wants with his money" is pointless. We know this. Bonyth does. It's self-explanatory. Then, these tours have been going worse and worse; of course there are trolls who are just salty about Scan, but there's also very reasonable and sound arguments to have it another way. Constructive discussion is a good thing.
On June 15 2017 21:40 LML wrote: Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted).
On June 15 2017 21:40 LML wrote: Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted).
Win trading if i remember correctly? Or something to that effect, either way that was 8 years ago. I dont think cheating is as big of an issue now that you can like impose restrictions such as streaming(with a delay ofc) on whoever is in question
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
But how is it anyone else's problem that they are gonna hate when they are not happy with the rules or with whoever is winning? If a player is hating because of Scan winning the tournaments, then it's his own problem, he must deal with his own hatred himself. Learn to let go, practice meditation, practice humility. It is not for the whole community and organisers to make changes to accomodate a handful of upset players who can't keep control over their emotions and have to take it out on other people (organisers).
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
So much hatred towards someone for being good and for someone hosting a tournament their way.
Yo LML that was a long time ago when you were talking about Scan. Maybe he deserves a clean slate. I don't think it is the best argument.
But I'd be interested to find out if they're are any top foreigners that would argue that they think Koreans should be allowed to participate in tours. So far it has almost been exclusively every top player thinks that Koreans and Korean-Americans/hyphenated Koreans should be banned from tours. It's unanimous among top players.
On June 15 2017 22:14 Alpha-NP- wrote: Yo LML that was a long time ago when you were talking about Scan. Maybe he deserves a clean slate. I don't think it is the best argument.
But I'd be interested to find out if they're are any top foreigners that would argue that they think Koreans should be allowed to participate in tours. So far it has almost been exclusively every top player thinks that Koreans and Korean-Americans/hyphenated Koreans should be banned from tours. It's unanimous among top players.
I've only seen Bonyth, Eonzerg, Trutacz and Kenzy voice their opinion as to why Scan shouldn't be allowed. That's 4 players who have obviously discussed the topic together. I'd like to see the opinions of people like Dandy, Dinot, Dewalt, Terror, Lancer, Bakuryu, etc.
I've not read the entire discussion, and I don't really care because I'm more from the SC2 perspective, where we don't get to choose anything in this regard cause BliBli decides for us... anyway, what brought me was this line from the first post :
On June 13 2017 20:30 KenZy wrote:
I think when the community will be bigger it's gonna be fine to have ALL our tournaments open to koreans.
SC2 scene is reducing a lot in numbers, yet I think the game is more appealing to newbies than SC-BW for many reason that are not the topic here cause it's only my opinion. My point is : Do you really think the community will get bigger ? Is there any trend toward this ? Is SC-BW-Remastered the cause of you thinking that ?
This is an honest question, no opinion on the matter. The only opnion is regarding SC2 and while I would hope the community gets bigger... well, you know. It's would be good already if it stays as is.
On June 15 2017 21:40 LML wrote: Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted).
And later on he drove to another guy's house and played for him during what was ISL2 iirc. Trying to avoid IP detection for smurfing while being banned from the league.
On June 15 2017 22:28 LDaVinci wrote: I've not read the entire discussion, and I don't really care because I'm more from the SC2 perspective, where we don't get to choose anything in this regard cause BliBli decides for us... anyway, what brought me was this line from the first post :
I think when the community will be bigger it's gonna be fine to have ALL our tournaments open to koreans.
SC2 scene is reducing a lot in numbers, yet I think the game is more appealing to newbies than SC-BW for many reason that are not the topic here cause it's only my opinion. My point is : Do you really think the community will get bigger ? Is there any trend toward this ? Is SC-BW-Remastered the cause of you thinking that ?
This is an honest question, no opinion on the matter. The only opnion is regarding SC2 and while I would hope the community gets bigger... well, you know. It's would be good already if it stays as is.
Yes i think SC-BW-Remastered gonna bring a lot of new blood and old school player. I don't know if it's gonna be bigger than Sc2 (right now) but it's definitly gonna be bigger than what bw is atm.
I can understand the frustration some of the players have, i can also understand Scan.
But hey lets make it easy for us? How welcoming are Koreans towards foreigners participating in their communities compared to us foreigners welcoming koreans?
We all know the answer to this. I luv scan tho kid is legit but yeh?
I see this thread taking two different directions. I think there should be a separate thread for the conversation about cheating because it is in fact a separate issue. I don't think it's a relevant argument for this thread.
To bring it back to topic, here's a thought experiment (I'll use a pseudonym because I want to create emotional distance from the real situation): A) Valerie has vastly greater access to training resources. This gives her a great advantage over everyone else. Out of a hundred people, she is the only one with such access. Many of these hundred people decide not to re-enter the competition. B) A hundred people have vastly greater access to training resources. This gives them a great advantage over Valerie. Valerie is the only one who doesn't have such access. Valerie decides not to re-enter the competition.
Would you say that A is wrong and something should be done about it? Would you say that B is wrong and something should be done about it? Whether you give differen answers or the same answer, can you rationally explain the exact reasons for why you're (not) making a difference?
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
So much hatred towards someone for being good and for someone hosting a tournament their way.
is the last time i gonna adress to you,im doing this cuz i know you,i played you and you are also very often on my stream. I think everyone of us understood pretty clear the purpose of the tournaments.now exactly 2 weeks ago the organizer told us that there will be only 3 tournaments left and the last will be casted by day9 with a bigger prize.i want you to grab this 2 WEEKS AGO.is clear right ? ok lets move on,i stream very often lately more than ever.and every single day i stream i have people telling me about why scan is playing blablabla,im not lying every single day.and in other places like defiler.ru the same situation.and idk if this is happening for the rest so i cant tell.I cant control people minds and tell them stop complaining,in the begin i tried something like this.Scan is not winning for free he is doing efforts,he is awake at 4 am to play the tournaments.etc.but there is a limit there is gonna be a day were u will fall.it did happen some days ago after i did see only 8 players signed for the tourney most of them were the complainers.(i know alot of top players that are not coming to play for that reason,i know some of them are giving wo when they have to face Scan)now since we already know the situation and are being vocal to find a better solution to really boost the players and the community(i dont really know how big or small is the BW community),i dont count the trolls and the shitposters that are giving opinions without playing the game,without coming to play a single tourney,without comment ever in any of the tourney threads,i dont believe they watch the finals.I know you do,i know how you bash us when we loss like noobs vs scan,i also know you have a very particular mindset that u did reach very easy some ranks on fish and you believe u are already better than some other players,even if you are not playing the game or anything. I dont really like the way u act,but i dont judge ,everyone is like they want to be,thats not my problem.I dont think anyone hates Scan,i mean if you are hating someone cuz he is winning in a game u really need visit the doctor.i can understand someone is mad after lossing,i will be even mad at my dog if he wins me playing volleyball so yeah.atleast MYSELF im telling things just cuz i knew there were only 3 tourneys left 2 weeks AGO.(i dont mean to ban scan for the last 3 tourneys,in case you are confused by this,is just that sadly things didnt work out so who knows for people to come maybe this serves a purpose,sadly this whole thing goes out of control and we loss some important events ) i also dont want to believe people take their time to send DM to the organizers telling they sux cuz they are allowing Scan to play tourneys,but u never know,i have koreans on fish that harass me aswell when i won some afreeca streamer spamming or adding me to the friend list and removing and even going to my stream to BM.
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
So much hatred towards someone for being good and for someone hosting a tournament their way.
is the last time i gonna adress to you,im doing this cuz i know you,i played you and you are also very often on my stream. I think everyone of us understood pretty clear the purpose of the tournaments.now exactly 2 weeks ago the organizer told us that there will be only 3 tournaments left and the last will be casted by day9 with a bigger prize.i want you to grab this 2 WEEKS AGO.is clear right ? ok lets move on,i stream very often lately more than ever.and every single day i stream i have people telling me about why scan is playing blablabla,im not lying every single day.and in other places like defiler.ru the same situation.and idk if this is happening for the rest so i cant tell.I cant control people minds and tell them stop complaining,in the begin i tried something like this.Scan is not winning for free he is doing efforts,he is awake at 4 am to play the tournaments.etc.but there is a limit there is gonna be a day were u will fall.it did happen some days ago after i did see only 8 players signed for the tourney most of them were the complainers.(i know alot of top players that are not coming to play for that reason,i know some of them are giving wo when they have to face Scan)now since we already know the situation and are being vocal to find a better solution to really boost the players and the community(i dont really know how big or small is the BW community),i dont count the trolls and the shitposters that are giving opinions without playing the game,without coming to play a single tourney,without comment ever in any of the tourney threads,i dont believe they watch the finals.I know you do,i know how you bash us when we loss like noobs vs scan,i also know you have a very particular mindset that u did reach very easy some ranks on fish and you believe u are already better than some other players,even if you are not playing the game or anything. I dont really like the way u act,but i dont judge ,everyone is like they want to be,thats not my problem.I dont think anyone hates Scan,i mean if you are hating someone cuz he is winning in a game u really need visit the doctor.i cant understand someone is mad after lossing,i will be even mad at my dog if he wins me playing volleyball so yeah.atleast MYSELF im telling things just cuz i knew there were only 3 tourneys left 2 weeks AGO.(i dont mean to ban scan for the last 3 tourneys,in case you are confused by this,is just that sadly things didnt work out so who knows for people to come maybe this serves a purpose,sadly this whole thing goes out of control and we loss some important events ) i also dont want to believe people take their time to send DM to the organizers telling they sux cuz they are allowing Scan to play tourneys,but u never know,i have koreans on fish that harass me aswell when i won some afreeca streamer spamming or adding me to the friend list and removing and even going to my stream to BM.
You're making a good point, but next time dont make a wall of text
Imo foreigner only tournies never went off in sc2, i cannot imagine BW would change that. Its just hard to enjoy competition when you know, the most likely winners werent allowed to play.
I am an anti korean racist, but i believe that there are many others like me, especially on TL.
I've only seen Bonyth, Eonzerg, Trutacz and Kenzy voice their opinion as to why Scan shouldn't be allowed. That's 4 players who have obviously discussed the topic together. I'd like to see the opinions of people like Dandy, Dinot, Dewalt, Terror, Lancer, Bakuryu, etc. Ehhh, they could probably care less about Scan playing, the small prize pool and just play for fun.
I don't think that any of us wrote here that Scan shouldn't be alllowed. All of what we wrote was about foreigner scene or maybe some differences between both scenes. But yeah, keep saying that we did...
On June 15 2017 23:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Imo foreigner only tournies never went off in sc2, i cannot imagine BW would change that. Its just hard to enjoy competition when you know, the most likely winners werent allowed to play.
I am an anti korean racist, but i believe that there are many others like me, especially on TL.
"imo" yes. But sc2 was mostly dominated by koreans in the foreign scene it was rarely that foreigners even won and that might kill the fun in the game for the foreign scene just saying.
On June 15 2017 21:40 LML wrote: Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted).
And later on he drove to another guy's house and played for him during what was ISL2 iirc. Trying to avoid IP detection for smurfing while being banned from the league.
Everything started with JoeKim's idea. And i was young and being his puppet for the drama. Sadface :'(
Joekim was smurfing on ruarc by lrmgames permission and he knew he couldnt play ladders much and get qualified. I played for him. At the same time, he told me to go someone's house for the diff ip and play protoss only.
Anyways, idc. I was like 16 or 17 at that time. Im a grown up man now.
Ps: lrmgame banned me for next isl without any reason, but joekim helped him to get an evidence to ban scan. Ofc good drama. I just remembered joekim was threatening me with words that he will beat me up by driving from la to san jose lol.
Btw, lml, is there a reason you are pulling out about this? Anyone can read it from liquipedia anyways.
On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
Why don't you or anyone else hold a tournament of ur own for non koreans. You don't even need to have a prizepool IMO. As all of you said no foreigner is playing bw 24/7 to make money from it.
This thread wouldnt even exist if there were 5-6 tournaments and half of them allowed koreans, just make some more tournaments without koreans to see who is the best foreigner or which foreigner can dominate the longest.
IMO forcing stuff upon the few people willing to put effort into BW in 2017 is just so BM. You should be happy they do this stuff, if i were them i'd quit and you'd have nothing. I dont know about you guys but i was raised with the mentality of: if someone is offering something for free, you dont complain.
this thread should be locked imo :/
That's why I called it a SUGGESTION. I'm not forcing and it's not possible to force anyone's hand. I am happy they to stuff like this but what u don't understand is that there WILL BE people with hatred towards Scan infinite money apetite. Some people don't approve of his approach, that's why there is so much hatred towards him and organizers for allowing for such a thing to happen. Yes, these are organizers money, and he can do whatever he want with them. BUT if he does anything he wants, not caring about these people opinion, he needs to be prepared to hear some mean words at his adress. The ideas we proposed are meant to protect weaker psychically organizers from the internet's hatred. If they are good on their own, so be it. If they have another plan for their tournaments, and from the looks of it Schamtoo may have one, so be it. Border line - our ideas are just a suggestion, not a set of rules that every organizer has to obey.
I don't host a tournament because I have no money for it. As for no-prizepool tournaments, we have Iccup tournaments and occasionaly few others.
So much hatred towards someone for being good and for someone hosting a tournament their way.
is the last time i gonna adress to you,im doing this cuz i know you,i played you and you are also very often on my stream. I think everyone of us understood pretty clear the purpose of the tournaments.now exactly 2 weeks ago the organizer told us that there will be only 3 tournaments left and the last will be casted by day9 with a bigger prize.i want you to grab this 2 WEEKS AGO.is clear right ? ok lets move on,i stream very often lately more than ever.and every single day i stream i have people telling me about why scan is playing blablabla,im not lying every single day.and in other places like defiler.ru the same situation.and idk if this is happening for the rest so i cant tell.I cant control people minds and tell them stop complaining,in the begin i tried something like this.Scan is not winning for free he is doing efforts,he is awake at 4 am to play the tournaments.etc.but there is a limit there is gonna be a day were u will fall.it did happen some days ago after i did see only 8 players signed for the tourney most of them were the complainers.(i know alot of top players that are not coming to play for that reason,i know some of them are giving wo when they have to face Scan)now since we already know the situation and are being vocal to find a better solution to really boost the players and the community(i dont really know how big or small is the BW community),i dont count the trolls and the shitposters that are giving opinions without playing the game,without coming to play a single tourney,without comment ever in any of the tourney threads,i dont believe they watch the finals.I know you do,i know how you bash us when we loss like noobs vs scan,i also know you have a very particular mindset that u did reach very easy some ranks on fish and you believe u are already better than some other players,even if you are not playing the game or anything. I dont really like the way u act,but i dont judge ,everyone is like they want to be,thats not my problem.I dont think anyone hates Scan,i mean if you are hating someone cuz he is winning in a game u really need visit the doctor.i cant understand someone is mad after lossing,i will be even mad at my dog if he wins me playing volleyball so yeah.atleast MYSELF im telling things just cuz i knew there were only 3 tourneys left 2 weeks AGO.(i dont mean to ban scan for the last 3 tourneys,in case you are confused by this,is just that sadly things didnt work out so who knows for people to come maybe this serves a purpose,sadly this whole thing goes out of control and we loss some important events ) i also dont want to believe people take their time to send DM to the organizers telling they sux cuz they are allowing Scan to play tourneys,but u never know,i have koreans on fish that harass me aswell when i won some afreeca streamer spamming or adding me to the friend list and removing and even going to my stream to BM.
First of all, I have always respected you as a player for your skills and your dedication to the game. The same applies to Trutacz and Bonyth. You guys are all great players and have a different set of skills that set you apart as players. What I didn't respect was the approach that you guys took towards the organizers of the tournament. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion and feeling strong about it, and I understand that a group of top foreigners who hold the same mindset about tournaments are sticking together. That's awesome, and I respect your passion. I have always supported you and your stream, and will continue to despite the difference in opinion that we have about tournaments. I would never call you a newbie for losing to Scan, I was cheering for you the last time you two played Let's be honest, I was never one to try to be the best. I was relatively unknown even when I DID play. I flew under the radar, I always played for fun (As my style showed) I smurfed most of the time on fish and iccup. I never played tournaments as I had other hobbies that I was passionate about on the weekends when most tournaments were being held. I don't consider myself to be better than anyone at my current state. You guys are great players and your Fish ranks alone prove that. Everyone here who cares about the game and still loves to either watch or play it is here for the same reason. To find a solution to the issues that all of you guys brought up. Yes I might have made some troll responses to you guys, And I apologize for that, but that was only to get your attention and to consider the mindset of the opposition. If I have ever offended yourself, or any other streamer that I watch regularly, I apologize.
In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
These who want to keep all tournaments open, I want you to ask one thing. Was the outcome of this situation good in your opinion? Was cancelling the event a natural thing to occur? 1) Yes 2) No, say what could be done about it
Just dont answer with something like 'so don't bash organizers', because it's not possible to control other people. Therefore, it's not a solution.
On June 15 2017 23:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Imo foreigner only tournies never went off in sc2, i cannot imagine BW would change that. Its just hard to enjoy competition when you know, the most likely winners werent allowed to play.
I am an anti korean racist, but i believe that there are many others like me, especially on TL.
"imo" yes. But sc2 was mostly dominated by koreans in the foreign scene it was rarely that foreigners even won and that might kill the fun in the game for the foreign scene just saying.
Yeah, i bet it does for many people. It would be interesting to know how large the different viewer groups are.
This thread convinced me play in these tournaments. Even though I am pretty sure the skill difference between the runner-ups and me is larger than between Scan and them.
But I want to support the organizers for their efforts. I hope they keep doing this.
About the argument I think the most fitting comparison would be whether Michael Schumacher should have been banned from F1 for his perfomance in 2000-2004
On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
These who want to keep all tournaments open, I want you to ask one thing. Was the outcome of this situation good in your opinion? Was cancelling the event a natural thing to occur? 1) Yes 2) No, say what could be done about it
Just dont answer with something like 'so don't bash organizers', because it's not possible to control other people. Therefore, it's not a solution.
I'm not so sure that anyone wants to keep ALL tournaments open. I think ALL tournaments should be open by default unless otherwise specified. Meaning it's still solely up to the organizer of the tournament to make that decision. I can assure you that each and every person that organizes a tournament, will have a different approach. Some will want everyone to be able to play in it, some will want foreigners only. I would like to see a battle of the top foreigners in a tournament for money. I think we all would. But not every tournament, or every other tournament...
So u're saying 1) YES? Nothing should be done (or suggested) and the outcome was good. It was just unlucky that there was no other tournaments happening silmultanously?
On June 15 2017 21:40 LML wrote: Pretty sure they received temporary bans due to first offense, as opposed to Scan who received a permanent ban due to repeated offense (while being blacklisted).
And later on he drove to another guy's house and played for him during what was ISL2 iirc. Trying to avoid IP detection for smurfing while being banned from the league.
And Scan was treated as persona non grata for a long time for this on Teamliqiud. I think he was first permitted as a feature streamer again in 2013 and then was permitted to partake in TLS Champs and TLC's. This permission was only taken away because of his dominance in TLC's and the last drama of this kind that came along with it. TL Staff notably defended his participation in that discussion with him being a valuable member of this scene and with his contributions. From my perspective if i might add, he was always an open, helpful and friendly high level player who was never reluctant to share and help. He provided me a ton of replays for ICCUp, hooked me up with chinese contacts, wrote/translated emails to korean pro's on my behalf and always tried to give information and help when i had questions. Long story short, coming into "content creation" or whatever in 2012-13 my impression of Scan was and is always a pleasant one.
For me personally, i think it's worthwile and interesting to have this discussion that is taking place here but i resent any notion of banning Scan because of old grudges. He ain't banned by TL.net anymore, he ain't banned on ICCUP anymore, gg.net doesn't do BW content anymore so that is irrelevant here. So im gonna repeat myself and say 'let bygones be bygones'.
On June 16 2017 00:41 Bonyth wrote: So u're saying 1) YES? Nothing should be done (or suggested) and the outcome was good. It was just unlucky that there was no other tournaments happening silmultanously?
The outcome was terrible due to the approach that was taken in the beginning stages of the discussion. Nothing should be done if that's what the organizer of the tournament chooses to do. There WILL be tournaments held in the future that will be for foreigners only, trust me. The tournaments that are being held by Schamtoo and FilthyRake aren't one of those tournaments. They compromised in a way that they felt was fair to the players while still sticking to their guns. That was by introducing a losers bracket. The outcome wasn't good for those wanting no Koreans in tournaments, or no Koreans in every other tournament. I'm a bit confused whether you're still trying to change Schamtoo and FilthyRake's mind, or whether you're trying to change the way ALL future tournaments are going to be held.
On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
Good point. Instead of banning Koreans let's keep them, and instead ban all Polish people. This way we can still have the highest level players, but this kind of drama will probably not happen without a few key posters from this thread.
Maybe this is the compromise that we're all looking for.
On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
Good point. Instead of banning Koreans let's keep them, and instead ban all Polish people. This way we can still have the highest level players, but this kind of drama will probably not happen without a few key posters from this thread.
Maybe this is the compromise that we're all looking for.
On June 16 2017 00:19 Bonyth wrote: In this thread we want to find a solution, so that when a 2nd Filthy appears and hosts a series of tournaments, the history doesn't repeat itself.
Good point. Instead of banning Koreans let's keep them, and instead ban all Polish people. This way we can still have the highest level players, but this kind of drama will probably not happen without a few key posters from this thread.
Maybe this is the compromise that we're all looking for.
can you just stop derailing this thread?
I'll explain a little more, since I was warned for not posting a well-formed argument.
Through the thread first the discussion was on banning Koreans. In the end it seems no conclusion was really reached here, though there were a lot of points in favor, and against. Now the topic of banning anyone is deemed off-topic. To summarize:
They have many advantages since the top talent is in Korea
They are a higher skill level than foreigners
Scan is Korean
Anti-Arguments against the Banning of Koreans
Banning Koreans is racist
Scan is a foreigner, especially based on merit
Banning the top talent won't fix anything
Then L_Master came in and tried to single handedly shift the conversation to talking about organizing tournaments by skill only. There are some problems that were already voiced that apply to this skill based idea. There were also so pros. Here's each summary list:
Pro-Arguments in Favor of Skill Separation in Tournaments:
We can have a more fair competition
This is a compromise, and players posting in this thread want a compromise
Players could avoid playing against Scan, and still compete in tournaments
Anti-Arguments against Skill Separation in Tournaments
The player base is too small to split right now
Tournament organizers don't like the idea for their own reasons
Splitting the player base would in effect "ban Scan", since he's in a skill tier of his own
I'm heavily in favor of not separating the BW community in any way within the foreign scene, and it seems like the discussion more or less agrees as it has now devolved into defaming Scan, since too many people consider him a foreigner.
So what is left to discuss?
Tournament organizers don't want to change their tournaments to exclude Scan. Eon et al. come in here with walls of emotional text, so clearly they are still unhappy. Bonyth is still saying "something has to change because we're unhappy". So what now? A dead serious question, what else is there to discuss.
Clearly Scan is here to stay. Clearly a few key foreign players are unhappy. Hence my conclusion to ban a couple of those unhappy foreign players. Sure, it's completely satirical sounding, but I'm specifically disappointed enough with their collective conduct in this thread to throw the idea out there and be OK with it actually happening.
On June 16 2017 02:20 Bonyth wrote: All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW.
I can answer your question but you will not like it.
We both want Filthy (and others) to be happy, because we like tournaments. But here's the thing: Filthy came in here, and the only thing he was upset by was people like you complaining. So if we go back in time, I would say: stop complaining. I know you don't like this suggestion, but that's my honest suggestion.
We all would like you to be happy too, and the same goes for truta, eon, and any others. Everyone being happy would be ideal. But my last point was trying to say: there doesn't seem to be a valid compromise. Unless someone else has some ideas, I don't see a compromise that can make everyone happy.
So if there's no compromise to be made, and certain players are going to remain unhappy, I see two options: A) ignore the unhappy players; B) don't let the unhappy players compete. Obviously we don't want option B) because that's ridiculous, so we are left with A.
Unless someone has a new idea for option C?
Edit: Ignoring the unhappy players. That sounds harsh, and well it is harsh. But like L_Master ingeniously pointed out, perhaps the unhappy players can write down their suggestions respectfully on a community wiki. This wiki can be sent to tournament organizers. The feedback on the wiki can be anonymous and professional. The tournament organizers can take the feedback or leave it on their own terms.
Maybe this is enough to make you guys happy. If not, I really don't think there's anything left to discuss. If you guys are going to be this ridiculously stubborn, well then all that's left are equally ridiculous ideas, like banning Polish players.
On June 16 2017 02:20 Bonyth wrote: I'm done here, waste of time and energy trying to convince people like CecilSunkure.
All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW.
Honestly it seems that Filthy mostly lost interest because of the way people criticised him, being insulted and stuff(you obviously were not one of the guys who did that). He even said that if people would have criticised him normally he would have changed Filthy BW eventually to foreigner only. So I think Filthy didn't really lose interest in BW itself but was mostly bullied out of the scene.
So I don't think there was much people could suggest Filthy to do so he doesn't loose interest aslong as they don't change their way of criticising him.
I remember years ago when people would be happy to play Koreans and learn from them, everyone was trying to game them on iccup now it seems like they just wanna dodge my how times change
On June 16 2017 02:20 Bonyth wrote: All I'm trying to ask u lately, if we could rewind the time, what would u suggest FilthyRake to do so he doesn't loose interest in BW.
I can answer your question but you will not like it.
We both want Filthy (and others) to be happy, because we like tournaments. But here's the thing: Filthy came in here, and the only thing he was upset by was people like you complaining. So if we go back in time, I would say: stop complaining. I know you don't like this suggestion, but that's my honest suggestion.
We all would like you to be happy too, and the same goes for truta, eon, and any others. Everyone being happy would be ideal. But my last point was trying to say: there doesn't seem to be a valid compromise. Unless someone else has some ideas, I don't see a compromise that can make everyone happy.
So if there's no compromise to be made, and certain players are going to remain unhappy, I see two options: A) ignore the unhappy players; B) don't let the unhappy players compete. Obviously we don't want option B) because that's ridiculous, so we are left with A.
Unless someone has a new idea for option C?
Edit: Ignoring the unhappy players. That sounds harsh, and well it is harsh. But like L_Master ingeniously pointed out, perhaps the unhappy players can write down their suggestions respectfully on a community wiki. This wiki can be sent to tournament organizers. The feedback on the wiki can be anonymous and professional. The tournament organizers can take the feedback or leave it on their own terms.
Maybe this is enough to make you guys happy. If not, I really don't think there's anything left to discuss. If you guys are going to be this ridiculously stubborn, well then all that's left are equally ridiculous ideas, like banning Polish players.
U didn't read carefully my question. I asked: what would YOU do if u could rewind the time to keep the tours happening. Your answer was: mind control everyone so they don't complain XD So u'd rather have no tournaments and unhappy organizer, than telling him to make (for example) every 2nd tournament open which would lead to 0 casualties. I honestly don't get this logic. I just don't. I better just quit this conversation. My mind cannot comprehend what's going on in your minds.
At this point this whole discussion just sounds like top foreigners are mad that they can't win against Scan and this has nothing to do with Koreans in general - as those same top foreigners play on Fish, nor does it has anything to do with some kind of arbitrary benefits Koreans have - as those same top foreigners play for over a decade in some cases.
So - as offensive as it sounds, this just looks like "top foreigners" being unhappy that they don't win. A very absurd notion, as top players should strive for stronger competition and be glad to continue to have challenges thrown at them - not to fall asleep on laurels as best and get mad when they don't get their bigger bite out of a pie.
On June 16 2017 02:46 Bonyth wrote: U didn't read carefully my question. I asked: what would YOU do if u could rewind the time to keep the tours happening.
I don't really think there's anything I could have done :o
On June 16 2017 02:46 Bonyth wrote: So u'd rather have no tournaments and unhappy organizer, than telling him to make (for example) every 2nd tournament open which would lead to 0 casualties.
I don't really like the idea of every second tournament, because I don't think it would work. But if someone politely wrote down the suggestion on a wiki, and sent that to Filthy, then I don't think Filthy would have gotten upset.
Seeing as this thread seems to have run its course and the discussion is not going anywhere, time to close it. Thanks to everyone for trying their best to understand the other side. I'm sure we'll run into this issue again sometime in the near future so hopefully everyone gives their stance another thought by then