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On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about). im not bashing u at all, just in my experience terran is so dam hard to kill atm. the bio lib late game comp is pretty much complete bs. i admit im only low masters and u play higher level but every1 has a different view on this game. maybe if we can see some examples might help.
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I'm pretty sure there is always a Terran in your game. Seems pretty unbalanced to me..
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Avilo isn't even responding anymore, it's a persona to get people fired up god damn it.
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On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about). How can you actually be this stupid? Having less larvae pretty obviously means less drone production. You think zerg just always has enough larvae to make drones magically? People actually use their larvae...
About the unit massing; liberators are broken, they're too good at too many things, but massing them is a bad idea and doesn't work, as you've shown if I recall. Mass carrier really isn't that good from my experience, you just have to control the amount of them early, or have enough money to keep remaxing viper corruptor. Brood viper doesn't seem broken, ultras seem to be the problem unit right now for zerg.
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On October 13 2015 02:25 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week. This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game... All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly. Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!! This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already. Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game!
As evaluated, now we have 8 terrans at top 16, 4 of each other race. Which is very fast change for a weeks time. And trend is still pointing to terrans doing heavy climbs as other races doing very modestly at most. This is pre balace update oct 16, where toss most useful lategame unit v other races, the carrier, got nerfed. Terran got further buffs. It puts an unpleasent scenario for the game competivity in the near future. This shows that once again blizz failed to pinpoint the unbalances, and adressed wrong issues. This type of behaviour just puts the game in a worse state than before.
At the moment ,and since some patches ago, it seems like there is some heavy negative productivity at development office. It worryies me, so close to lauch.
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On October 17 2015 13:09 TenMin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:25 Spyridon wrote:On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week. This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game... All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly. Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!! This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already. Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game! As evaluated, now we have 8 terrans at top 16, 4 of each other race. Which is very fast change for a weeks time. And trend is still pointing to terrans doing heavy climbs as other races doing very modestly at most. This is pre balace update oct 16, where toss most useful lategame unit v other races, the carrier, got nerfed. Terran got further buffs. It puts an unpleasent scenario for the game competivity in the near future. This shows that once again blizz failed to pinpoint the unbalances, and adressed wrong issues. This type of behaviour just puts the game in a worse state than before. At the moment ,and since some patches ago, it seems like there is some heavy negative productivity at development office. It worryies me, so close to lauch.
I agree about the productivity. Seems like something strange really is going on. Some of the things said during the whole MM reverting were pretty blatant contradictions. They said beta would be "much longer" than earlier betas and it was the same length as hots, store page said games going to be released by march 2016 then its suddenly at blizzcon, and then now overwatch gets a random beta announcement (which is very unlike Blizzard, the company who Announces Announcements like no other), and for some reason the beta is starting weeks BEFORE blizzcon rather than being marketed there...
None of it really makes sense. And Blizzards marketing team is is usually insanely competitive. This is different...
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