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Okay, I'm not an award winning mathematician but it does seem to me like the rate at which Protoss produce workers is too slow.
Terran and Zerg still make workers at the same pace in the early game, while we make them considerably slower due to the decrease in chrono effectiveness.
Of course, chrono is always on in this version of the game but rather than making a lot of workers quickly LotV Protosses get the benefit over a much longer period of time. Which means mineral income is delayed.
When you look at the MULE it's not significantly weaker than HotS. And those Zergs going 3 hatch before pool... well they can still make 9 drones at a time.
I've been opening Nexus before Cyber every single game and non-stop producing workers yet even then I feel like I struggle to keep up on worker count. Anyone else?
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if they go 3 hatch before pool, take a fast third nexus.
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On November 18 2015 00:30 91matt wrote: if they go 3 hatch before pool, take a fast third nexus.
This isn't a thread to discuss strategy.
I'm just talking about the relative worker production rates of the different races.
Terran and Zerg are hardly affected since HotS in the early game. Protoss is significantly slowed.
The reason I bring up 3 hatch before pool is that they'll have 9 larva (same as HotS) and still make workers at the same speed as HotS.
Once queens hit the field you're looking at 6/7 Larva, a minor nerf relative to the huge increase in early game probe production time.
Again, the first 20 probes are way more important than the next 20 because they allow you to expand/build vital buildings much faster.
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Relative worker production is not really relevant outside of balance, unless you think it's a problematic design issue?
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On November 18 2015 00:36 AdrianHealeyy wrote: Relative worker production is not really relevant outside of balance, unless you think it's a problematic design issue?
I think it's a balance issue.
But also a design issue. If you try to balance the game around this worker design then you end up with things like Pylon Overcharge spam.
If we had more income from being able to produce workers at a reasonable rate we'd be able to spend it on units for defense rather than Super PO.
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I'm not satisfied with the place of Chrono, but that's from a non balance perspective. It's still unintuitive to use for me and there's plenty of wasted and not needed clicks you have to do. I think a lot of Protosses would find that while it felt inside the game that you were on point with your Chrono, you will find that in the replays of your games that a lot of the time you did not Chrono what you wanted to Chrono at the time.
Don't really see yet why we cannot have stackable Chrono, but have it be pre-lotv style exactly as Inject.
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Its a massive oversight on blizzards part on the whole Chronoboost thing and 12 worker start.
Increasing the number of worker start to 12 from 6 was the worst for protoss aswell because we used to be able to get an advantage, for example in HOTS when your 12th probe finishes, the terran would only have 10 and 11th scv about 20% complete so all starting with 12 workers is a "nerf" to protoss economy relative to HOTS, its like starting the game with 1-2 probes less.
You cant cut probes else you waste chrono boost time leading protosses into highly inefficient builds (a build like 15nexus 15gateway is not longer worth it because you'd waste 30~ seconds of chronoboost time)
These things are both a balance and design issue, the chrono should go back to HOTS version and its value should be nerfed approperiately to mule/inject nerfs. But since david is in charge and he has no idea what hes doing and is just winging it, then i presume when the stats in the weeks to come end up being something like 45% in protoss favor (number pulled out of my ass to make a point) His response will be something stupid like improve one of the gimmicks of protoss like making the pylon overcharge longer or other stupid shit like that instead of actually realizing its the economy thats the problem.
well, thats my rant on it
User was warned for this post
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partially related, but one of the things i don't like about new chrono is that switching between buildings in the mid or late game is extremely awkward. if you have three nexuses chronoing three different buildings, there isn't a simple way to know which building will LOSE chrono when you decide to cast it on a fourth building. so if you want to change just one of your chronos you have to recast all three to make sure you get the correct setup.
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On November 18 2015 01:13 brickrd wrote: partially related, but one of the things i don't like about new chrono is that switching between buildings in the mid or late game is extremely awkward. if you have three nexuses chronoing three different buildings, there isn't a simple way to know which building will LOSE chrono when you decide to cast it on a fourth building. so if you want to change just one of your chronos you have to recast all three to make sure you get the correct setup.
100% agree, i've got no clue why they thought this is ok for release, maybe its us protoss players fault for not making an uproar about it like the community did for automated injects? is it too late to get them to revert it?
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On November 18 2015 01:01 cactus555 wrote: Its a massive oversight on blizzards part on the whole Chronoboost thing and 12 worker start.
Increasing the number of worker start to 12 from 6 was the worst for protoss aswell because we used to be able to get an advantage, for example in HOTS when your 12th probe finishes, the terran would only have 10 and 11th scv about 20% complete so all starting with 12 workers is a "nerf" to protoss economy relative to HOTS, its like starting the game with 1-2 probes less.
You cant cut probes else you waste chrono boost time leading protosses into highly inefficient builds (a build like 15nexus 15gateway is not longer worth it because you'd waste 30~ seconds of chronoboost time)
These things are both a balance and design issue, the chrono should go back to HOTS version and its value should be nerfed approperiately to mule/inject nerfs. But since david is in charge and he has no idea what hes doing and is just winging it, then i presume when the stats in the weeks to come end up being something like 45% in protoss favor (number pulled out of my ass to make a point) His response will be something stupid like improve one of the gimmicks of protoss like making the pylon overcharge longer or other stupid shit like that instead of actually realizing its the economy thats the problem.
well, thats my rant on it
I agree.
I just don't get how nobody caught this.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On November 18 2015 01:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 01:01 cactus555 wrote: Its a massive oversight on blizzards part on the whole Chronoboost thing and 12 worker start.
Increasing the number of worker start to 12 from 6 was the worst for protoss aswell because we used to be able to get an advantage, for example in HOTS when your 12th probe finishes, the terran would only have 10 and 11th scv about 20% complete so all starting with 12 workers is a "nerf" to protoss economy relative to HOTS, its like starting the game with 1-2 probes less.
You cant cut probes else you waste chrono boost time leading protosses into highly inefficient builds (a build like 15nexus 15gateway is not longer worth it because you'd waste 30~ seconds of chronoboost time)
These things are both a balance and design issue, the chrono should go back to HOTS version and its value should be nerfed approperiately to mule/inject nerfs. But since david is in charge and he has no idea what hes doing and is just winging it, then i presume when the stats in the weeks to come end up being something like 45% in protoss favor (number pulled out of my ass to make a point) His response will be something stupid like improve one of the gimmicks of protoss like making the pylon overcharge longer or other stupid shit like that instead of actually realizing its the economy thats the problem.
well, thats my rant on it I agree. I just don't get how nobody caught this. Honestly, how many beta players studied replays? How many of them were studying worker production? But Blizzard has these values, all the games are played through their servers...
I have the feeling that this was by far the worst SC2 beta, because HotS was actually pretty well balanced and we had some great tournaments. There was no incentive to play it. (also it was lagging from Europe )
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To bring the other perspective, I prefer the new chrono boost mechanic, and find it completely intuitive. Also, it's deterministic, and you should know which building will lose the boost, as it'll be the oldest one it was applied to. I think it also goes through the nexus in built order, same as the base cycle hotkey.
In terms of workers, you're looking at a balance issue in isolation with the rest of the changes. What if keeping the same economy made Protoss overpowered through the introduction of the new units? Balance issues can only be solved once a balance issue has clearly been identified, and at this point, I don't think anyone is claiming that Protoss are extremely weak in lotv are they?
tldr; Balance issues will get addressed later, the chrono boost mechanic seems a personal preference.
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On November 18 2015 01:47 hZCube wrote: and you should know which building will lose the boost, as it'll be the oldest one it was applied to. I think it also goes through the nexus in built order, same as the base cycle hotkey. why should we have to memorize this while doing everything else? it should be VISUALLY intuitive. all you needed to do with the old chrono was look at the screen to see if a building is chronoed or not. mules and injects are mindless mechanics, why should chrono boost have to be mentally catalogued this way (my main is zerg btw, i offrace toss)?
and besides that, the point is that even if you do know you still can't control it, so to do it in a reliable way you have to recast every single chrono you have which is irritating and weakens the design
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On November 18 2015 01:47 hZCube wrote: In terms of workers, you're looking at a balance issue in isolation with the rest of the changes. What if keeping the same economy made Protoss overpowered through the introduction of the new units? Balance issues can only be solved once a balance issue has clearly been identified, and at this point, I don't think anyone is claiming that Protoss are extremely weak in lotv are they?
They are.
At a high level Protoss can't beat T. At any level, they can't beat Z.
Beta numbers (the ones David Kim refers to) look balanced on the surface because people hadn't learned to handle adept / warp prism cheese yet.
Toss got smashed hard at Shoutcraft and I anticipate this will continue.
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Ive found I generally just chrono from one nexus selected, so I know which my main, nat and 3rd is boosting. It's really not hard to remember three things, if anything, it could be argued it's just a sideways movement from having to remember *when* to chrono boost. You've exchanged remembering when something runs out, for which building did it. It's not radically harder or different, in my opinion.
This seems like one of those issues where players have got used to a certain mechanic, and favour that due to existing skills learnt previously.
I know I've introduced a few new players to lotv, and they've had no problem understanding and using the new mechanic.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On November 18 2015 02:02 hZCube wrote: Ive found I generally just chrono from one nexus selected, so I know which my main, nat and 3rd is boosting. It's really not hard to remember three things, if anything, it could be argued it's just a sideways movement from having to remember *when* to chrono boost. You've exchanged remembering when something runs out, for which building did it. It's not radically harder or different, in my opinion.
This seems like one of those issues where players have got used to a certain mechanic, and favour that due to existing skills learnt previously.
I know I've introduced a few new players to lotv, and they've had no problem understanding and using the new mechanic. The mechanic is idiotic to say the least. I am OK with what they did but for the love of me change how it is applied.
BTW I am an application programmer and this GUI change tears my soul...
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I have to agree, the new chrono is garbage. Blizzard should just have removed the whole macro mechanics instead of leaving it at this state. What's the point seriously.
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The new chronoboost removes a makro skill at the cost of efficiency and intuition. I'd rather have it the other way around.
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On November 18 2015 02:43 Leraw wrote: The new chronoboost removes a makro skill at the cost of efficiency and intuition. I'd rather have it the other way around.
Stacking injects is ONLY a buff.
If you're bad at the game you stack. If you're a pro you don't stack but you don't LOSE anything.
The CB change is strictly a NERF for anyone who is good and flat to modestly better for beginners.
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If I am not a whiner am I allowed to contribute to this rant thread? I play random and I find it quite balanced, I have yet to fall behind or get too far ahead in economy with the way things currently are. I think that if you are experiencing something other then my situation then you should probably reevaluate your game style and start optimizing your builds. If anything is garbage about LotV it is the posts coming from the inexperienced and absent minded individuals who feel it is necessary to complain.
Chrono boost comes from the closest nexus that is not on a 5 sec cooldown.
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