Protoss worker production... - Page 2
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Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
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SeCReTT
31 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On November 18 2015 01:47 hZCube wrote: To bring the other perspective, I prefer the new chrono boost mechanic, and find it completely intuitive. Also, it's deterministic, and you should know which building will lose the boost, as it'll be the oldest one it was applied to. This is ONLY true if Chrono Boost is on cooldown on the Nexus, otherwise, it's the one closest to the target. If this was the case, then I think it would be intuitive and I would be completely fine with it. We have to spam the Chrono to make it work the way we want, when we said it doesn't function the way we want it to, they increased the cooldown on the Chrono, which means it's functions the way we want for longer, but why in the hell not change the way the whole thing works so that it ALWAYS works how we want? it's a bit silly and I guess lazy, since it's the same way units work and for them you WANT to issue a command to the closest spellcaster, so it happens quickly, but for a Nexus with infinite cast range that is absolutely not the case. | ||
always_winter
United States195 Posts
On November 18 2015 00:35 DinoMight wrote: This isn't a thread to discuss strategy. This is a thread to discuss whining. Take your usefulness elsewhere. I've got your back, OP. Less pew pew, more QQ. | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 18 2015 04:50 always_winter wrote: This is a thread to discuss whining. Take your usefulness elsewhere. I've got your back, OP. Less pew pew, more QQ. What I'm tying to show is that if you take HotS (a moderately balanced game), and apply the LotV econ changes, just those changes are a massive nerf to Protoss. Because workers are not created as fast. When you take something balanced, and nerf one race's eonomy, you need to give it back something to maintain that balance. So far we don't have that something. It may seem silly to say this isn't a thread for strategy but I'm just trying to talk about the economy in isolation. | ||
hZCube
87 Posts
People are far too quick to judge a games balance based on once change in isolation. You have to look holistically at the changes, and then wait to see how he meta evolves in tournament play, before saying something is broken. You could argue, that before, terrans couldn't pickup siege tanks. Now they can. Therefore, terrans are now overpowered. As in hots, it was closely balanced, and now they can pickup tanks, it must be broken. Right? | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 18 2015 05:51 hZCube wrote: And you're saying in your mind you can't see a way that the new units could compensate for that balance shift? People are far too quick to judge a games balance based on once change in isolation. You have to look holistically at the changes, and then wait to see how he meta evolves in tournament play, before saying something is broken. You could argue, that before, terrans couldn't pickup siege tanks. Now they can. Therefore, terrans are now overpowered. As in hots, it was closely balanced, and now they can pickup tanks, it must be broken. Right? This game is fundamentally about collecting resources and using them to build an army. Therefore, changes to how a race collects resources most directly affect its performance in the game. Your example about picking up tanks is... accurate... but not material enough. If for example, tanks got 100 range, then yes. It would be game breaking. | ||
ZombieFrog
United States87 Posts
For example, do you want to go for a fast +1 timing as protoss? Chrono your forge to reduce the time. Do you want to go for a fast +1 timing as terran or zerg? Well they're stuck at the timing on it. There is no way for them to make it any faster and at base the +1 upgrades have the same research time across all 3 races | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 18 2015 06:07 ZombieFrog wrote: This post is extremely silly. You are pointing out one specific aspect that protoss is bad at in comparison to the other races and ignoring the ones protoss is good at as some sort of balance discussion. It's called asymmetrical balance Yes protoss does not make as many workers as zerg or have mules, but chrono affords them other opportunities the other races do not have. For example, do you want to go for a fast +1 timing as protoss? Chrono your forge to reduce the time. Do you want to go for a fast +1 timing as terran or zerg? Well they're stuck at the timing on it. There is no way for them to make it any faster and at base the +1 upgrades have the same research time across all 3 races When the "aspect that Protoss is bad at" is making workers, it affects everything else in the game. Terrans can build an engineering bay before Protoss can get a forge because they actually have the money to do it. Like I said, the focus is on the changes from HotS (a balanced game) to LotV (an incredibly imbalanced game). The economic changes are huge and the implications for Protoss seem to have been overlooked. | ||
PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On November 18 2015 06:11 DinoMight wrote: When the "aspect that Protoss is bad at" is making workers, it affects everything else in the game. Terrans can build an engineering bay before Protoss can get a forge because they actually have the money to do it. Like I said, the focus is on the changes from HotS (a balanced game) to LotV (an incredibly imbalanced game). The economic changes are huge and the implications for Protoss seem to have been overlooked. You can make a forge when you have a pylon, how much faster do you want it? | ||
HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On November 18 2015 03:10 Rhythm.102 wrote: If I am not a whiner am I allowed to contribute to this rant thread? I play random and I find it quite balanced, I have yet to fall behind or get too far ahead in economy with the way things currently are. I think that if you are experiencing something other then my situation then you should probably reevaluate your game style and start optimizing your builds. If anything is garbage about LotV it is the posts coming from the inexperienced and absent minded individuals who feel it is necessary to complain. Chrono boost comes from the closest nexus that is not on a 5 sec cooldown. There is a difference between complaining and creating valid criticism of the way the game scales over time. If you cannot recognize this then I imagine you are either ignorant, moronic, arrogant, or trolling. It coming from the closest nexus doesn't mean anything if you have 4 SGs and 4-5 different nexus and then want to change to upgrading after a few air units are out in the late game while doing 200 other things a minute. It is pretty much a mishmash. On November 18 2015 06:23 PinoKotsBeer wrote: You can make a forge when you have a pylon, how much faster do you want it? Are you even reading this thread? lol wtf kind of response is this? >.> | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 18 2015 06:23 PinoKotsBeer wrote: You can make a forge when you have a pylon, how much faster do you want it? Ok, so you ARE just trolling. Has Protoss received anything significant enough to merit a substantial nerf in worker creation relative to the two other races from HotS to LotV? This is something you should be asking yourselves. Maybe the game can be balanced with a weaker Protoss economy. But keep in mind that a slower worker production rate makes recovering from worker kills more difficult (this is eased by Terrans' ability to drop MULEs and Zergs' ability to make many workers at once). This impacts design aspects such as strength of harass. Also, a stronger Protoss economy might mean things like less reliance on Photon Overcharge because we can actually afford to build units to defend our bases (which I'm sure would be a welcome change to many T/Z players). | ||
XupinatoR
Spain125 Posts
On November 18 2015 06:07 ZombieFrog wrote: This post is extremely silly. You are pointing out one specific aspect that protoss is bad at in comparison to the other races and ignoring the ones protoss is good at as some sort of balance discussion. It's called asymmetrical balance Yes protoss does not make as many workers as zerg or have mules, but chrono affords them other opportunities the other races do not have. For example, do you want to go for a fast +1 timing as protoss? Chrono your forge to reduce the time. Do you want to go for a fast +1 timing as terran or zerg? Well they're stuck at the timing on it. There is no way for them to make it any faster and at base the +1 upgrades have the same research time across all 3 races This would be true if it wasn't because right now terran can get the ebay much faster than toss because of what OP is saying. The truth is that right now chrono boost is not at the level of Mules and Larva inject. I still can't say if its not compensated by some other things, but that kind of economic change isn't easily compensated. | ||
VTArlock
United States1763 Posts
On November 18 2015 07:04 XupinatoR wrote: This would be true if it wasn't because right now terran can get the ebay much faster than toss because of what OP is saying. The truth is that right now chrono boost is not at the level of Mules and Larva inject. I still can't say if its not compensated by some other things, but that kind of economic change isn't easily compensated. I completely agree. While Chrono boost does have advantages in other aspects throughout the long game, it does not specifically boost income at the same rate a mule drope or larvae inject of drones does. Also I have found that during my games I am constantly changing what is being chrono'd BECAUSE of the fact that sometimes the wrong building is "un-chrono'd" because of location or order it was used. That is definitely a pain. | ||
Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
it's like saving larva for zerg, or saving scans as terran.. there's a very real strategic purpose for saving chrono.. it's not always just because you're bad and you forget.. why would you want to eliminate that? the way it is now is very uninteresting. | ||
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