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I hate the idea that tournaments are boring just because a korean wins them. People with that attitude are just spoiled. I'm willing to bet nobody who followed the brood war scene thought a tournament was boring just because "another korean won".
Koreans are people too. It's not like they're just machines. A lot of work and practice goes into them winning stuff, and they deserve just as much respect and admiration as foreigners do.
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea.
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So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans?
No, it's very exciting.
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On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote: I hate the idea that tournaments are boring just because a korean wins them. People with that attitude are just spoiled. I'm willing to bet nobody who followed the brood war scene thought a tournament was boring just because "another korean won".
Koreans are people too. It's not like they're just machines. A lot of work and practice goes into them winning stuff, and they deserve just as much respect and admiration as foreigners do.
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I agree. I'll gladly pay money to watch tournaments with players like MVP and Nestea rather than some foreigners(not all) who are not as good. I'll watch both if I can, but if I had to choose, I'll pick players who are more skilled every time.
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I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that foreign players have so much opportunity to make money doing anything but practicing.
How many top players in NA and Europe are making money streaming, broadcasting, doing shows, and being popular rather than practicing?
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On August 07 2011 03:29 Jesushooves wrote:It's hard for foreigners to compete, most people can only play a few hours a day...and it isn't really socially acceptable that you play 12 hours a day outside of Korea...I doubt the skill gap will shrink at all unfortunately
I don't understand hoiw someone might want to make a living out of something (in this case, playing a videogame) a dedicate only a few hours of their day to this activity.
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On August 07 2011 04:14 FuTon wrote:Show nested quote +So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? No, it's very exciting.
yeah i dont give a shit either. its nice to have foreigners doing well and im psyched to see people like naniwa and huk so eager to prove themselves to the koreans on their home turf, but at the end of the day i just want to watch the best players, regardless of where theyre from.
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I disagree with Bitter when he thinks that koreans placing high will make it stale for the spectator. Atleast that is not true for me as I think having koreans do well makes it more enjoyable for me to watch high level play. If it was just foreigners battling it out I would not watch at all. The reason I don`t follow any of the IPL.
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On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea.
I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary.
On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well.
I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2.
I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others.
Food for thought.
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On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote: I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything.
Actually, America had just kicked Britian's ass... so they weren't doing to well.
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On August 07 2011 04:28 Premier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 01:04 Chargelot wrote:On August 07 2011 00:59 brachester wrote:On August 07 2011 00:55 Cadgers wrote: I pray we don't end up in the same state as WC3 (a couple of top foreigners and the rest Asians) Consider it is lucky, because with this pace, there will be now foreingers at all, sc2 is still new and korean are already dominating sc2 scene. sc2 is still new You know, when America was new, the British were dominating. What is true now, at this very moment, is not necessarily true in 10 years. That applies to everything. Actually, America had just kicked Britian's ass... so they weren't doing to well. This sub-thread is ridiculous and off topic.
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All you guys saying, "Well I would watch Koreans place Top 6 at every tournament" are being ignorant of what SC2 needs to grow in the Western scene, as well as be sustained in the Western scene. Koreans placing top at every tournament is going to kill SC2 growth outside of Korea, no doubt about it. It might take longer than it did for BW, but unless some foreigners decide they're actually going to commit to this game and place high consistently, we're just going to see SC2 invert back to Korea within the next 3 or so years. MLG will move on once spectator interest dwindles, which it will if Koreans all kill every event.
tldr - Foreigners step it the fuck up.
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On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans.
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On August 07 2011 04:46 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 04:26 Iberville wrote:On August 07 2011 03:58 TedJustice wrote:
Frankly I wish people would put aside nationality and root for the best players. Those players just happen to live in korea. I don't see what the big deal is about wanting someone from your country to win. Stating that you don't care is certainly your prerogative, as it is someone else's to feel the contrary. On another note, I feel that it is quite ridiculous that some put forth the argument that if your interest in a sport wades as it is dominated by X country means you don't like that sport. International hockey is dominated by three teams mostly, and it's boring. Boring. Boring. Boring. Women's hockey is worst: it's basically Canada vs USA. Boring. Boring. Boring. When a sport is completely dominated by one country... well. I dislike those who will say that I don't like hockey because of what I feel the international sport scene is. Same thing for SC2. I also dislike those who impose upon others a criteria of what it means to be a fan of a certain sport because I don't agree with their point of view; ie: you find tournaments boring because Koreans always wins, that means you don't like SC2; uninstall. That is not an argument. It's imposing your point of view on others. Food for thought. That's fine and dandy, but your country isn't "non-korea". It's silly that people will root for every foreigner, even ones that aren't from their country, but not koreans.
I didn't say what you're insinuating.
I also don't understand what you mean by "my country isn't 'non-korea'." Although a sentence, it makes no sense. I dislike the word "foreigner", which to me is relative, hence why I prefer to specify by saying "not-this-place".
Also something else to think about : not everyone is a hardcore SC2/BW game watcher. Not everyone wakes up at 5 am to watch GSL, not everyone knows the scene. When you're trying to grow the sport, you're trying to bring new people who are ignorant. I'm not saying that Korean players don't help grow the sport (some seem to think that's what I'm writing, which, again, is ridiculous), but stimulating local growth is, however, a great way to help expose a sport and make it grow.
I also like how nobody seemed to care about the labour question. Shows how young the crowd is in here.
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Foreigners don't have to pick up their game to stop the scene from dwindling. So long as the Koreans continue to travel to these events, people will watch them online, and people will show up to watch them live.Bring Nestea to an MLG and tell me that the viewers on stream won't break MLG records, and attendance at the event itself won't increase. Hell, the only reason I paid for my MLG pass is because the games have got more exciting with the higher-tier players from Korea being invited to play.
Most foreigners simply do not practice enough to show off exciting games, and a tournament without any top-tier players (see: Korea + a few select foreigners) just isn't worth the money. Compared to Koreans, foreigner games look like Gold matches where both sides max to 200/200 then throw their armies at each other until one guy GG's, and that's not exciting (in fact, early in SC2 inControl had some major success against Zerg specifically by doing NOTHING but bluffing attacks until he maxed out, and now look at him). Now, I'm certain they could kick my ass, but I'm speaking in relative terms here, games by foreigners look amateur compared to the games that the Koreans, and a few select foreigners put together. Yes, they have to get better if they want to compete to win, but so long as the Korean players are actually traveling to the foreign tournaments, they will still draw viewers, because more than anything, spectators want to see the BEST compete.
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People should stop comparing Starcraft with team sport.
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On August 07 2011 05:01 Nemireck wrote: Foreigners don't have to pick up their game to stop the scene from dwindling. So long as the Koreans continue to travel to these events, people will watch them online, and people will show up to watch them live.Bring Nestea to an MLG and tell me that the viewers on stream won't break MLG records, and attendance at the event itself won't increase. Hell, the only reason I paid for my MLG pass is because the games have got more exciting with the higher-tier players from Korea being invited to play.
Most foreigners simply do not practice enough to show off exciting games, and a tournament without any top-tier players (see: Korea + a few select foreigners) just isn't worth the money. Compared to Koreans, foreigner games look like Gold matches where both sides max to 200/200 then throw their armies at each other until one guy GG's, and that's not exciting (in fact, early in SC2 inControl had some major success against Zerg specifically by doing NOTHING but bluffing attacks until he maxed out, and now look at him). Now, I'm certain they could kick my ass, but I'm speaking in relative terms here, games by foreigners look amateur compared to the games that the Koreans, and a few select foreigners put together. Yes, they have to get better if they want to compete to win, but so long as the Korean players are actually traveling to the foreign tournaments, they will still draw viewers, because more than anything, spectators want to see the BEST compete. This is speculation. Although perhaps accurate. It's "spittin' truth" without it being true.
On August 07 2011 05:02 MrKn4rz wrote: People should stop comparing Starcraft with team sport. This is an interesting point.
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So you're not afraid of tournaments becoming boring because of first places being occupied solely by Koreans? We have seen a glimpse of that in recent weeks.
I'm terrified of this possibility because it would make the spectator's experience stale in my opinion.
I've never understood this concern. There are far more exciting narratives than just 'can guy from country A beat guy from country B'. I mean, had Boxer won MLG the audience would have gone absolutely bonkers. Would that have been a staler spectator experience than if Huk, a code S player and the arguable favorite after MVP, had won it? I don't believe so. You could say that Boxer is different, but why should he be? Every player has a personal story that's just as capable of capturing an audience's enthusiasm as the flag next his name. More capable, actually.
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On August 07 2011 00:58 brachester wrote: it's not about being a korean or not, it's all about the amount of time the foreinger players willing to sacrifice to practice. In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players. It's is because these players are willing to play at a professional level, they are willing to risk their future, some may even oppose their parents and friends to play starcraft 2. The foreingers must step up their attitude toward esport or else, they will never catch up. Even some lower level players in korea are more hardworking than most of the top foreginer i know. Gaming, especially Starcraft, is quite accepted in Korea. Nearly every young dude has played SC at one point or another. Lim Yo Hwan and Kim Taek Young are nearly household names. You can meet up with your friends after a weekend, ask what everyone did, and say you spent the weekend playing games and not be considered a nerd. There's much less stigma in Korea than in the states.
You really have no idea what you're talking about... -_-
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with foreign team houses and koreans to train with, that should give foreigners what they need to keep up, something they didn't have in Broodwar
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On August 07 2011 00:58 brachester wrote: ... In korea and asian cultures in general, gaming is still not as accepted as in the western but it still has much stronger gaming teams and players...
I'd have to disagree here. At least in much of the US, I get the impression that while gaming is for the most part not just accepted but even reaching the point where it's expected as a hobby, very few people would ever imagine or accept that it's an acceptable professional career goal. Obviously MLG has drawn pretty big crowds, but that's for events only every couple months, so there's no comparison even to basketball or hockey (soccer may even be a bigger draw).
Also, "for the most part". I live in a house with a couple guys, and we had a couple summer roommates as well. All of them have seen me watching pro or tourney streams, and most are impressed by the skill level - but only one of them plays SC, and I (silver/bronze league, usually not more than 5-10 games a week) am much much better than he is.
I obviously can't speak to Europe as much.
But the point is, "accepted" or not, Korean culture has clearly adjusted to the idea of professional gaming being a more-or-less legitimate "thing" in ways the US at least can only envy - even if the average Korean teen gets in far more trouble for "wasting money" on games than the US teen would.
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