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On November 13 2012 23:49 oneofthem wrote: i would have thought the problem obvious, even to you.
but anyway, using your idea that operating on a level of representation that is larger in size than an individual and her thoughts is necessarily dehumanizing, (not true btw, given closure of physical world any characteristic observed on the group level is valid if not necessarily specifically realized on the individual level) nazis engaged in a lot of group level prejudices and thus dehumanizing thinking. such as when they thought jews should all be killed for being jews.
your act is like an anti death penalty post during nuremberg. not even, it's more like a "don't be mean to nazis" protest during nuremberg.
Actually what I am saying is quite the opposite: a moral rejection of Nazism on the level you are entertaining is no sufficient defense against Nazism.
I would like to draw you out in the sole example you cite: Which Nazis thought that Jews should all be killed for being Jews? Did Goering think so? Did Speer think so? Ribbentrop? If Hitler and Himmler thought so, did their conscious and historical records leave any trace of justification of genocide? Or did even they never go that far? If their statements went so far as to justify genocide, what were the justifications they offered? Did the most virulent anti-semites in the Nazi party, such as Hitler and Himmer and Rosenberg and Goebbels agree as to the essence of the Jewish problem, or did they have divergent and mutually exclusive opinions?
How did the Nazi leadership conceptualise Jews? Did the Jews represent to them a race, nation, religion or something else? Did they see Judaism as a subjective or objective category? Were the Jews morally speaking a monolithic group to them? Were there any Jewish exceptions in their eyes?
If you cannot answer these questions (and to be honest, I cannot fully answer many of these questions) then you are reduced to a kind of bland moral theology. "Nazis engaged in a lot of group level prejudices and thus dehumanizing thinking." As you say, so are you. I assume then that what you are opposing is not a particular approach, but a particular argument. I have yet to hear that argument articulated in any manner.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i don't know if i am interested in answering your questions if you somehow miss the point of post ww2 education so badly. let those who see judge.
but you are wrong in your one substantial assertion. a condemnation of an act does not necessarily have to appeal to mental state at all, a mere egregious consequence of the act is enough. this certainly works on the level of what the nazis did.
for instance, if communists were well intended and still 'caused' 200m deaths, then that's bad. it speaks badly about at least a kind of communism that would let that slide.
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On November 13 2012 15:53 Samba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:05 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 m4inbrain wrote:On November 13 2012 11:28 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:45 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) your comment is quite racist on a side note. and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher. btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse. Thank you for your concern. My post was not racist at all, please do study up. GDP percentage is not an accurate gauge. Actual currency spent is more accurate when comparing militaries. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresAs for isolating Germany, I don't think that they would care if the rest of europe has hard times. Yes, economy will take a dump, thats a given, globally. But, that's to be expected and could be worked around. Germany does not contain a natural resourse stockpile, with natural minerals and uranium as its main resourses, along with grown crops, at least that could not be offset globally. Meaning, Germany isnt the supplier of its surrounding countries with critical natural resources. Your post wasn't racist. But borderline stupid. Germany had a history of wars, right. But to hear from a canadian (a neighbor of, lol, the US) that he is "frightened" of our military.. Yeah, wow. Btw, guess what nation had the most wars in the last 200 years (including a fair share of war crimes). Oh, and then look how much they still spend on military. And keep in mind that they're actually a nation with nuclear capabilities. What a bunch of bullshit, seriously. Even if the right wing would suddenly take over in germany, which actually does not happen at all, a war as aggressor against poland, czech? With france and the UK (you know, nuclear weapons and stuff) directly next to us.. God, i can't really fathom how stupid someone has to be to actually think there are any possibilities to have that scenario. Im actually just playing devils advocate. My brother and I were having a good debate the other night about what should have happened to Germany after World War 2 and the happenings of war with that country. We did some fact checking etc etc, and were actually surprised to see how strong a military a country like Germany has, considering its historic past. We were surprised that the deaths of literally millions at the hand of a single country really didn't affect their future since the war, especially since early 1990. I actually played the opposite roll in that argument. But my brother did make some very good points, which are in this thread already. What somewhat put me on the edge decisiviley, was an argument that the current genepool of Germany, is from the populous which survived the war. The people that stood by and watched, doing nothing, as millions of people were exterminated. That actually elected by a massive majority the leadership and future they chose, and the slaugter that followed. That did nothing as the concentration camps within eye sight burned trainedloads of people. These people are the genetic makup which is the current german citizen. As much as I argued around it, it was a standing point which was fact. It happened, there were survivors, and those survivors lived on, procreated, and 2 and 3 generations later is where they are genetically. Now, I see your post was an attempt to poke at Americans, their war efforts and involvements, etc etc, in an effort to frustrate or infuriate me. You won't get that much pleasure from me. I might be Canadian, and the USA might be my neighbor to the south, but I could care less for them as a general populous, personally speaking. Are you fucking stupid?!?! How on earth can you really think that a genepool can inflict a nation this heavily? Society is definite by culture and education, not what my fucking granddad did or didn´t do. That doesn´t affect me at all. And btw what do you think your ancestors came from?! That´s right, Europe. Fuck your genepool! And next time you do "some fact checking" : Hitler wasn´t elected, but i´m not really suprised by that seeing your last posts. And on the whole debate, we just had a really nice event here in cologne where we have an annual concert against racism and intolerance and freakin´ 80000 people showed up, last anti-nazi demo i went we were 15000 against 100 neo-nazis. Tell that your fucking genepool and get some education! User was temp banned for this post.
tempban, really? Sure, he had some bad language, but in this thread are lots of posts with equally bad language and a lot of posts who are just racist, but not get banned...
But he is right. At every nazi demonstration there are at least like ten times as many people rallying against nazis/racism. I am not a racist. Maybe my grand-grand-dad was? I don't know and i don't care. Please don't judge me on something i have never done.
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On November 13 2012 12:05 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 11:40 m4inbrain wrote:On November 13 2012 11:28 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:45 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) your comment is quite racist on a side note. and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher. btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse. Thank you for your concern. My post was not racist at all, please do study up. GDP percentage is not an accurate gauge. Actual currency spent is more accurate when comparing militaries. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresAs for isolating Germany, I don't think that they would care if the rest of europe has hard times. Yes, economy will take a dump, thats a given, globally. But, that's to be expected and could be worked around. Germany does not contain a natural resourse stockpile, with natural minerals and uranium as its main resourses, along with grown crops, at least that could not be offset globally. Meaning, Germany isnt the supplier of its surrounding countries with critical natural resources. Your post wasn't racist. But borderline stupid. Germany had a history of wars, right. But to hear from a canadian (a neighbor of, lol, the US) that he is "frightened" of our military.. Yeah, wow. Btw, guess what nation had the most wars in the last 200 years (including a fair share of war crimes). Oh, and then look how much they still spend on military. And keep in mind that they're actually a nation with nuclear capabilities. What a bunch of bullshit, seriously. Even if the right wing would suddenly take over in germany, which actually does not happen at all, a war as aggressor against poland, czech? With france and the UK (you know, nuclear weapons and stuff) directly next to us.. God, i can't really fathom how stupid someone has to be to actually think there are any possibilities to have that scenario. Im actually just playing devils advocate. My brother and I were having a good debate the other night about what should have happened to Germany after World War 2 and the happenings of war with that country. We did some fact checking etc etc, and were actually surprised to see how strong a military a country like Germany has, considering its historic past. We were surprised that the deaths of literally millions at the hand of a single country really didn't affect their future since the war, especially since early 1990. I actually played the opposite roll in that argument. But my brother did make some very good points, which are in this thread already. What somewhat put me on the edge decisiviley, was an argument that the current genepool of Germany, is from the populous which survived the war. The people that stood by and watched, doing nothing, as millions of people were exterminated. That actually elected by a massive majority the leadership and future they chose, and the slaugter that followed. That did nothing as the concentration camps within eye sight burned trainedloads of people. These people are the genetic makup which is the current german citizen. As much as I argued around it, it was a standing point which was fact. It happened, there were survivors, and those survivors lived on, procreated, and 2 and 3 generations later is where they are genetically. Now, I see your post was an attempt to poke at Americans, their war efforts and involvements, etc etc, in an effort to frustrate or infuriate me. You won't get that much pleasure from me. I might be Canadian, and the USA might be my neighbor to the south, but I could care less for them as a general populous, personally speaking.
I did some fact checking myself and came up with different "facts". That leads me to the conclusion that you and your brother are either A) bad at "checking facts" B) stupid as fuck C) drunk while having that conversation D) talking out of your ass E) combination of the above
I also think i dont reveal a big secret here when i tell you that your statement about "the genetic makup which is the current german citizen" is not only reaching new undiscovered levels of stupidity but also highly insulting to any german citizen that takes your massive pile of shit, that you call a forumpost, serious.
I dont quite understand how he didnt get a warning/ban for spreading so much stupidity and ignorance.
I also wonder what kind of statement qualifies as "rechtsextremes Denken" (extreme right-wing thinking) because that seems like its an intentional generalization to get the percentage of "nazis" up as far as possible. Because there are not 9% of the population voting for the NPD.
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This is kinda REALLY offtopic, but I was always curious what a simulation would look like of the world if Hitler had of won the war... Maybe technology would have advanced faster due to less ethics and a lower population all at the loss of humanity. As morbid as that is, I always find it incredibly interesting to think of scenarios like this. (IE what if Rome never fell)
On November 14 2012 00:44 Scio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 12:05 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 m4inbrain wrote:On November 13 2012 11:28 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:45 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) your comment is quite racist on a side note. and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher. btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse. Thank you for your concern. My post was not racist at all, please do study up. GDP percentage is not an accurate gauge. Actual currency spent is more accurate when comparing militaries. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresAs for isolating Germany, I don't think that they would care if the rest of europe has hard times. Yes, economy will take a dump, thats a given, globally. But, that's to be expected and could be worked around. Germany does not contain a natural resourse stockpile, with natural minerals and uranium as its main resourses, along with grown crops, at least that could not be offset globally. Meaning, Germany isnt the supplier of its surrounding countries with critical natural resources. Your post wasn't racist. But borderline stupid. Germany had a history of wars, right. But to hear from a canadian (a neighbor of, lol, the US) that he is "frightened" of our military.. Yeah, wow. Btw, guess what nation had the most wars in the last 200 years (including a fair share of war crimes). Oh, and then look how much they still spend on military. And keep in mind that they're actually a nation with nuclear capabilities. What a bunch of bullshit, seriously. Even if the right wing would suddenly take over in germany, which actually does not happen at all, a war as aggressor against poland, czech? With france and the UK (you know, nuclear weapons and stuff) directly next to us.. God, i can't really fathom how stupid someone has to be to actually think there are any possibilities to have that scenario. Im actually just playing devils advocate. My brother and I were having a good debate the other night about what should have happened to Germany after World War 2 and the happenings of war with that country. We did some fact checking etc etc, and were actually surprised to see how strong a military a country like Germany has, considering its historic past. We were surprised that the deaths of literally millions at the hand of a single country really didn't affect their future since the war, especially since early 1990. I actually played the opposite roll in that argument. But my brother did make some very good points, which are in this thread already. What somewhat put me on the edge decisiviley, was an argument that the current genepool of Germany, is from the populous which survived the war. The people that stood by and watched, doing nothing, as millions of people were exterminated. That actually elected by a massive majority the leadership and future they chose, and the slaugter that followed. That did nothing as the concentration camps within eye sight burned trainedloads of people. These people are the genetic makup which is the current german citizen. As much as I argued around it, it was a standing point which was fact. It happened, there were survivors, and those survivors lived on, procreated, and 2 and 3 generations later is where they are genetically. Now, I see your post was an attempt to poke at Americans, their war efforts and involvements, etc etc, in an effort to frustrate or infuriate me. You won't get that much pleasure from me. I might be Canadian, and the USA might be my neighbor to the south, but I could care less for them as a general populous, personally speaking. I did some fact checking myself and came up with different "facts". That leads me to the conclusion that you and your brother are either A) bad at "checking facts" B) stupid as fuck C) drunk while having that conversation D) talking out of your ass E) combination of the above I also think i dont reveal a big secret here when i tell you that your statement about "the genetic makup which is the current german citizen" is not only reaching new undiscovered levels of stupidity but also highly insulting to any german citizen that takes your massive pile of shit, that you call a forumpost, serious. I dont quite understand how he didnt get a warning/ban for spreading so much stupidity and ignorance. I also wonder what kind of statement qualifies as "rechtsextremes Denken" (extreme right-wing thinking) because that seems like its an intentional generalization to get the percentage of "nazis" up as far as possible. Because there are not 9% of the population voting for the NPD. You'll probably tag along with a warning/ban for being so pretentious. Calm down and state your points, we've all got frustrated at stupidity (and at points been there being mistaken) but there's no reason to get so geared up over it.
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What the EU and depopulation companies like Mosantos are doing are no different from what Hitler did. Uniting Europe and killing off the aging population. Yet Hitler got all the blame for it.
At least Hitler liberated the third world countries by weakening Europe. Colonial nations like Britain, France, and the Netherlands werent any better since they were invaders themselves.
History is written by the victors.
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On November 14 2012 00:19 oneofthem wrote: i don't know if i am interested in answering your questions if you somehow miss the point of post ww2 education so badly. let those who see judge.
but you are wrong in your one substantial assertion. a condemnation of an act does not necessarily have to appeal to mental state at all, a mere egregious consequence of the act is enough. this certainly works on the level of what the nazis did.
for instance, if communists were well intended and still 'caused' 200m deaths, then that's bad. it speaks badly about at least a kind of communism that would let that slide.
You really need to be more graceful: when someone dismisses your argument it's not necessarily because they miss the point. I could go into nit-picking, because the historiography of Nazism in public consciousness is an evolving thing. There is properly speaking, no such thing as "Post-WW2 education" even when it comes to the moral assessment of the Nazi period in Germany. But by going into minutiae I would forget that you prefer the virtues of a fact-free discussion.
No one has said that we need to fundamentally reset our evaluation of Libice or Babi Yar. You can legitimately feel a reaction of revulsion in your native conscience and yet be ignorant as to the essence of the evil that was done to people. That spiritual contact with "malheur" is a kind of blind contact with moral truth that does not yield to categorical imperatives or rationalisations of natural law. At the bottom it is a laudable instinct which is corrupted by ignoring your own experiences and trying to force it into the public battleground where it can only triumph through violence and power. By that I do not merely mean a kind of physical, but also moral coercion which takes place in the German education system today. It is transferring by counterfeit a sense of right and wrong which normal, young Germans neither feel, touch, see nor hear. They are merely numbed by the repetitive aesops, the bland simplifications, the imbalanced treatment of German history and are ultimately reduced to either obedience or revolt. From the latter group you have the sprouting of neo-Nazis and Nazi apologists.
As people can perceive from my first post here, I was primarily lamenting the destruction of pre-Nazi German history by the overwhelming teleological perspective now favoured in academia when looking at the German Belle Epoque or even German Romantic literature. This is sustained by the erroneous belief that we can somehow improve our ideals by "learning from history." The only things we learn from history are how to distort our behaviour sufficiently to be blind to the next lesson.
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"The only things we learn from history are how to distort our behaviour sufficiently to be blind to the next lesson."
Please explain in depth because that sounds absolutely terrible.
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On November 14 2012 00:51 NeMeSiS3 wrote:This is kinda REALLY offtopic, but I was always curious what a simulation would look like of the world if Hitler had of won the war... Maybe technology would have advanced faster due to less ethics and a lower population all at the loss of humanity. As morbid as that is, I always find it incredibly interesting to think of scenarios like this. (IE what if Rome never fell) Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 00:44 Scio wrote:On November 13 2012 12:05 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 m4inbrain wrote:On November 13 2012 11:28 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:45 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) your comment is quite racist on a side note. and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher. btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse. Thank you for your concern. My post was not racist at all, please do study up. GDP percentage is not an accurate gauge. Actual currency spent is more accurate when comparing militaries. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresAs for isolating Germany, I don't think that they would care if the rest of europe has hard times. Yes, economy will take a dump, thats a given, globally. But, that's to be expected and could be worked around. Germany does not contain a natural resourse stockpile, with natural minerals and uranium as its main resourses, along with grown crops, at least that could not be offset globally. Meaning, Germany isnt the supplier of its surrounding countries with critical natural resources. Your post wasn't racist. But borderline stupid. Germany had a history of wars, right. But to hear from a canadian (a neighbor of, lol, the US) that he is "frightened" of our military.. Yeah, wow. Btw, guess what nation had the most wars in the last 200 years (including a fair share of war crimes). Oh, and then look how much they still spend on military. And keep in mind that they're actually a nation with nuclear capabilities. What a bunch of bullshit, seriously. Even if the right wing would suddenly take over in germany, which actually does not happen at all, a war as aggressor against poland, czech? With france and the UK (you know, nuclear weapons and stuff) directly next to us.. God, i can't really fathom how stupid someone has to be to actually think there are any possibilities to have that scenario. Im actually just playing devils advocate. My brother and I were having a good debate the other night about what should have happened to Germany after World War 2 and the happenings of war with that country. We did some fact checking etc etc, and were actually surprised to see how strong a military a country like Germany has, considering its historic past. We were surprised that the deaths of literally millions at the hand of a single country really didn't affect their future since the war, especially since early 1990. I actually played the opposite roll in that argument. But my brother did make some very good points, which are in this thread already. What somewhat put me on the edge decisiviley, was an argument that the current genepool of Germany, is from the populous which survived the war. The people that stood by and watched, doing nothing, as millions of people were exterminated. That actually elected by a massive majority the leadership and future they chose, and the slaugter that followed. That did nothing as the concentration camps within eye sight burned trainedloads of people. These people are the genetic makup which is the current german citizen. As much as I argued around it, it was a standing point which was fact. It happened, there were survivors, and those survivors lived on, procreated, and 2 and 3 generations later is where they are genetically. Now, I see your post was an attempt to poke at Americans, their war efforts and involvements, etc etc, in an effort to frustrate or infuriate me. You won't get that much pleasure from me. I might be Canadian, and the USA might be my neighbor to the south, but I could care less for them as a general populous, personally speaking. I did some fact checking myself and came up with different "facts". That leads me to the conclusion that you and your brother are either A) bad at "checking facts" B) stupid as fuck C) drunk while having that conversation D) talking out of your ass E) combination of the above I also think i dont reveal a big secret here when i tell you that your statement about "the genetic makup which is the current german citizen" is not only reaching new undiscovered levels of stupidity but also highly insulting to any german citizen that takes your massive pile of shit, that you call a forumpost, serious. I dont quite understand how he didnt get a warning/ban for spreading so much stupidity and ignorance. I also wonder what kind of statement qualifies as "rechtsextremes Denken" (extreme right-wing thinking) because that seems like its an intentional generalization to get the percentage of "nazis" up as far as possible. Because there are not 9% of the population voting for the NPD. You'll probably tag along with a warning/ban for being so pretentious. Calm down and state your points, we've all got frustrated at stupidity (and at points been there being mistaken) but there's no reason to get so geared up over it.
I really wonder how you would react if someone made stuff up, calls it a fact and presents it in a way that makes your whole country look like its people are descendants from cowards, psychophats and racists.
My points were that his post is almost completely wrong and insulting and that this study seems to treat right-wing thinking as a pretty broad term to get high numbers and attract more readers. Also the idea that there isnt done enough against racism and national socialism in germany is ridiculous as some people have pointed out already. Sadly it doesnt look like we (as in every country) will ever get rid off this extreme right-wing scum.
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On November 14 2012 01:10 Reason wrote: "The only things we learn from history are how to distort our behaviour sufficiently to be blind to the next lesson."
Please explain in depth because that sounds absolutely terrible.
The lesson Great Britain learned from the July crisis of 1914 was that much bloodshed could have been spared if the governments had behaved less rashly, played less brinkmanship and allowed the calmer spirit of compromise to reign.
This lesson was erroneously applied in October 1938 in Munich.
The lesson Great Britain learned from appeasement was that dictators must be challenged and preferably strangled in the crib, via pre-emptive action.
That lesson was erroneously applied in October 1956 in the Suez.
Please do not misinterpret me when I say that "lessons of history" do not exist. I am a historian, and I place great value on the study of history. What I will say is that learning history as a whole gives you greater insight into the complexities of human nature, and allows you to exercise better judgement. However to gift wrap and package certain episodes as fundamental doctrines, to pretend that understanding history gives you any ability to understand the future, is one of the greatest fallacies of historical analysis.
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On November 14 2012 01:16 Scio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 00:51 NeMeSiS3 wrote:This is kinda REALLY offtopic, but I was always curious what a simulation would look like of the world if Hitler had of won the war... Maybe technology would have advanced faster due to less ethics and a lower population all at the loss of humanity. As morbid as that is, I always find it incredibly interesting to think of scenarios like this. (IE what if Rome never fell) On November 14 2012 00:44 Scio wrote:On November 13 2012 12:05 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 m4inbrain wrote:On November 13 2012 11:28 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:45 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) your comment is quite racist on a side note. and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher. btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse. Thank you for your concern. My post was not racist at all, please do study up. GDP percentage is not an accurate gauge. Actual currency spent is more accurate when comparing militaries. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresAs for isolating Germany, I don't think that they would care if the rest of europe has hard times. Yes, economy will take a dump, thats a given, globally. But, that's to be expected and could be worked around. Germany does not contain a natural resourse stockpile, with natural minerals and uranium as its main resourses, along with grown crops, at least that could not be offset globally. Meaning, Germany isnt the supplier of its surrounding countries with critical natural resources. Your post wasn't racist. But borderline stupid. Germany had a history of wars, right. But to hear from a canadian (a neighbor of, lol, the US) that he is "frightened" of our military.. Yeah, wow. Btw, guess what nation had the most wars in the last 200 years (including a fair share of war crimes). Oh, and then look how much they still spend on military. And keep in mind that they're actually a nation with nuclear capabilities. What a bunch of bullshit, seriously. Even if the right wing would suddenly take over in germany, which actually does not happen at all, a war as aggressor against poland, czech? With france and the UK (you know, nuclear weapons and stuff) directly next to us.. God, i can't really fathom how stupid someone has to be to actually think there are any possibilities to have that scenario. Im actually just playing devils advocate. My brother and I were having a good debate the other night about what should have happened to Germany after World War 2 and the happenings of war with that country. We did some fact checking etc etc, and were actually surprised to see how strong a military a country like Germany has, considering its historic past. We were surprised that the deaths of literally millions at the hand of a single country really didn't affect their future since the war, especially since early 1990. I actually played the opposite roll in that argument. But my brother did make some very good points, which are in this thread already. What somewhat put me on the edge decisiviley, was an argument that the current genepool of Germany, is from the populous which survived the war. The people that stood by and watched, doing nothing, as millions of people were exterminated. That actually elected by a massive majority the leadership and future they chose, and the slaugter that followed. That did nothing as the concentration camps within eye sight burned trainedloads of people. These people are the genetic makup which is the current german citizen. As much as I argued around it, it was a standing point which was fact. It happened, there were survivors, and those survivors lived on, procreated, and 2 and 3 generations later is where they are genetically. Now, I see your post was an attempt to poke at Americans, their war efforts and involvements, etc etc, in an effort to frustrate or infuriate me. You won't get that much pleasure from me. I might be Canadian, and the USA might be my neighbor to the south, but I could care less for them as a general populous, personally speaking. I did some fact checking myself and came up with different "facts". That leads me to the conclusion that you and your brother are either A) bad at "checking facts" B) stupid as fuck C) drunk while having that conversation D) talking out of your ass E) combination of the above I also think i dont reveal a big secret here when i tell you that your statement about "the genetic makup which is the current german citizen" is not only reaching new undiscovered levels of stupidity but also highly insulting to any german citizen that takes your massive pile of shit, that you call a forumpost, serious. I dont quite understand how he didnt get a warning/ban for spreading so much stupidity and ignorance. I also wonder what kind of statement qualifies as "rechtsextremes Denken" (extreme right-wing thinking) because that seems like its an intentional generalization to get the percentage of "nazis" up as far as possible. Because there are not 9% of the population voting for the NPD. You'll probably tag along with a warning/ban for being so pretentious. Calm down and state your points, we've all got frustrated at stupidity (and at points been there being mistaken) but there's no reason to get so geared up over it. I really wonder how you would react if someone made stuff up, calls it a fact and presents it in a way that makes your whole country look like its people are descendants from cowards, psychophats and racists. My points were that his post is almost completely wrong and insulting and that this study seems to treat right-wing thinking as a pretty broad term to get high numbers and attract more readers. Also the idea that there isnt done enough against racism and national socialism in germany is ridiculous as some people have pointed out already. Sadly it doesnt look like we (as in every country) will ever get rid off this extreme right-wing scum.
As I said previously, take a calmer tone or it'll probably be moderated. Not many people call Canada anything but Americans get heat all the time for stereotypes like fat and stupid/ignorant. It's best to let the idiots banter on about what they think is rather then what actually is. No one educated actually thinks Germany is in anyway returning to a NAZI mentality nor do they constitute 9% as NAZI supporters/affiliates etc or think the genes have anything to do with it.
You're not wrong, he's saying really off the wall things but theres no reason to stoop to his level.
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On November 13 2012 11:22 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 07:32 mcc wrote:On November 13 2012 07:12 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 06:14 Yuljan wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) Past history of conflicts? You should try a little closer to home if you want a real history of conflicts. Edit: And before accepting the unification the allies wanted a clear declaration that Germany stays in the nato and doesnt become a demilitarized neutral state. From wiki: In December 1989, the administration of President George H. W. Bush made a united Germany's continued NATO membership a requirement for supporting reunification. Kohl agreed, although less than 20% of West Germans supported remaining within NATO closer to home? do tell. Nato you post - why Germany as part of Nato? So the rest of Nato can keep eyes on Germany so if need be, Nato can keep Germany under its thumb like a bug. The problem is your statements are completely ignorant. Germany is much further from being ruled by some extremists than US is. Germany has no way of any military action against its neighbours. You know that they have two nuclear powers just around the corner. And Germany is not nuclear power. Their military spending is pitiful compared to other countries. Plus allies pretty much demanded remilitarization from Germany, no the other way around. Also you seem to have missed last 50 years of history, maybe you should educate yourself before you start your knee-jerk reactions. Au contrair. You need to do your fact checking. German military spending, over 40 Billion (B as in Butter). Compare to your nation with a puny less than 2 Billion. Like the Czech would stand a chance if Germany decided to invade, nuclear power or not. What a feeble argument you make, so easily crushed. Read my former post again. Germany spends more than nearly all its direct neighbors. COMBINED. France is the only exception ot the rule and throws the balance out of wack. If Germany wanted to take a few battalions and squadrons, and go for a march through Czech and through Poland then back home, there isnt sweet all those two countries could do about it other than be a bit of a pest with thier meager 2.5 and 9.1 Billion in military spending to Germany's 43B. They'd slow down the German stroll through the park, but not stop it, not even close. Do you really know nothing about real world politics ? Yes, if Germany decided to attack Czech and Poland (no matter that Poland could actually put up a fight) you are saying that no country would say squat and let Germany do what they wanted ? Unlike you I am living close to Germany and I can tell you that nobody cares. You seem to have forgot last 60 years of European history, the whole EU, NATO thing. Plus the fact that war would be disastrous for Germany, they have nothing to gain even if noone opposed them.
As for your nonsensical numbers, Germany spends less per capita on army than 90+% countries on Earth. They actually spend less than Czech Republic and much less than Poland.
But anyway, your scenarios are about as realistic hidden Nazi base on the moon.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
By that I do not merely mean a kind of physical, but also moral coercion which takes place in the German education system today
to decide this empirical question i'd have to know what precise historical distortions or imbalances you are talking about and show that these distortions are the result of distorted presentation rather than the gravity of the nazi situation, by the magnitude of the event itself, has a large footprint.
in any case, given most charitable facts, nobody is hereby saying that a clear eyed account of history is not important. it is just that any clear eyed examination of history will also feature the lesson of a moral politics in order to resist the powerful human drives of national and racial hatred and narrative. still, the cost benefit of presenting the best account of history that highlights the lessons (it really is a lesson for all humanity not merely germans) is heavily leaning towards value building.
i don't care if retarded teenagers think it's cool to defend hitler because history books neglected to mention a couple years of full employment. i really don't care.
your claim is most charitably one about moral fatigue and the way of combating that. maybe to show the fuller picture and pierce the self claimed facts ignored that give neonazis some kind of bubble of ignored reality. it is maybe a problem tackled by people dealing with cults or conspiracy theorists. not really a big problem for the general aim of moral education.
the less charitable interpretation, perhaps a factually stronger one, is that you are projecting your own unbalanced view of history and the resentment you feel against the entire oppressive ideological structure encountered at skool.
nice going but don't get lost.
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On November 13 2012 12:05 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 11:40 m4inbrain wrote:On November 13 2012 11:28 Grimmyman123 wrote:On November 13 2012 07:45 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2012 06:09 Grimmyman123 wrote: The solution is simple, and it was done 67 years ago, but it was not maintained.
Demilitarize Germany like we did at the end of World War 2. Maintain and enforce a zero military policy. We didn't learn the first time after World War 1 and allowed germany to rearm itself, and look what happened. If Germany is allowed to be run by some radical group again, with their current military, its a problem.
For referrence, if you didn't know, Germany's military budget is EQUAL to Austria, Switzerland, Czech, Belguin, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands military budgets COMBINED. Take a look at that list of countries and their proximity to Germany. Scary isn't it?
After World War 1, and then World War 2, we should have learned. There should not have been a wall dividing Germany. There should have been a wall surrounding it.
So, that way it doesnt matter who leads Germany or what their views are. Let them scwabble among themselves.
(Yes, I know this is an extreme point of view and is not wholy realistic due to the need for a country to be able to defend itself. However, the statistics and numbers are a bit frightening when it comes to Germany's military budget, military size, and the country's past history of conflicts.) your comment is quite racist on a side note. and according to wikipedia germany's military budget is 1,3% of their gdp, less budget than both france's or the united kingdom's, while germany's gdp is about 50% higher. btw if you isolate germany now the european market it will outright collapse. Thank you for your concern. My post was not racist at all, please do study up. GDP percentage is not an accurate gauge. Actual currency spent is more accurate when comparing militaries. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresAs for isolating Germany, I don't think that they would care if the rest of europe has hard times. Yes, economy will take a dump, thats a given, globally. But, that's to be expected and could be worked around. Germany does not contain a natural resourse stockpile, with natural minerals and uranium as its main resourses, along with grown crops, at least that could not be offset globally. Meaning, Germany isnt the supplier of its surrounding countries with critical natural resources. Your post wasn't racist. But borderline stupid. Germany had a history of wars, right. But to hear from a canadian (a neighbor of, lol, the US) that he is "frightened" of our military.. Yeah, wow. Btw, guess what nation had the most wars in the last 200 years (including a fair share of war crimes). Oh, and then look how much they still spend on military. And keep in mind that they're actually a nation with nuclear capabilities. What a bunch of bullshit, seriously. Even if the right wing would suddenly take over in germany, which actually does not happen at all, a war as aggressor against poland, czech? With france and the UK (you know, nuclear weapons and stuff) directly next to us.. God, i can't really fathom how stupid someone has to be to actually think there are any possibilities to have that scenario. Im actually just playing devils advocate. My brother and I were having a good debate the other night about what should have happened to Germany after World War 2 and the happenings of war with that country. We did some fact checking etc etc, and were actually surprised to see how strong a military a country like Germany has, considering its historic past. We were surprised that the deaths of literally millions at the hand of a single country really didn't affect their future since the war, especially since early 1990. I actually played the opposite roll in that argument. But my brother did make some very good points, which are in this thread already. What somewhat put me on the edge decisiviley, was an argument that the current genepool of Germany, is from the populous which survived the war. The people that stood by and watched, doing nothing, as millions of people were exterminated. That actually elected by a massive majority the leadership and future they chose, and the slaugter that followed. That did nothing as the concentration camps within eye sight burned trainedloads of people. These people are the genetic makup which is the current german citizen. As much as I argued around it, it was a standing point which was fact. It happened, there were survivors, and those survivors lived on, procreated, and 2 and 3 generations later is where they are genetically. Now, I see your post was an attempt to poke at Americans, their war efforts and involvements, etc etc, in an effort to frustrate or infuriate me. You won't get that much pleasure from me. I might be Canadian, and the USA might be my neighbor to the south, but I could care less for them as a general populous, personally speaking. That is really funny because your rhetoric is basically the same as nazi rhetoric. They were also big on genetic traits of other nations and were drawing stupid conclusions from them. The reality is much darker, people of all nations are capable of the same things that happened in Germany in WW2. And you really did not do a good job with your research, otherwise you would know that Germany was basically forced to rearm itself by the allies.
What allies did after the war with Germany was pretty close to ideal.
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On November 13 2012 15:24 Mallard86 wrote: Europe has been leaning to the left heavily for quite some time. Its only natural that there be some backlash especially when things arent going well. Of course, its hardly neo-nazism just like "far" left ideologies are hardly communism. Its just a branding by the left influenced moderates and leftists to demonize any sort of right movements. Europe is pretty much in the center, not to the left. Current economic troubles cause rise to both right and left wing extremist movements.
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On November 14 2012 01:19 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 01:10 Reason wrote: "The only things we learn from history are how to distort our behaviour sufficiently to be blind to the next lesson."
Please explain in depth because that sounds absolutely terrible. The lesson Great Britain learned from the July crisis of 1914 was that much bloodshed could have been spared if the governments had behaved less rashly, played less brinkmanship and allowed the calmer spirit of compromise to reign. This lesson was erroneously applied in October 1938 in Munich. The lesson Great Britain learned from appeasement was that dictators must be challenged and preferably strangled in the crib, via pre-emptive action. That lesson was erroneously applied in October 1956 in the Suez. Please do not misinterpret me when I say that "lessons of history" do not exist. I am a historian, and I place great value on the study of history. What I will say is that learning history as a whole gives you greater insight into the complexities of human nature, and allows you to exercise better judgement. However to gift wrap and package certain episodes as fundamental doctrines, to pretend that understanding history gives you any ability to understand the future, is one of the greatest fallacies of historical analysis. Then how do you suggest we proceed?
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On November 13 2012 15:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 15:30 oneofthem wrote: i always am curious why nazis hate jews. what's the basis for this idea? After we lost in WW1 Hitler - who was in the army during that time - and others tried to blame others for the loss. There was the "Dolchstosslegende" (that we would have won, but the home front gave up and thus stabbed the glorious military in the back) and Hitler just came up with the jews. That has stuck since then and it is easy to do ... just blame a jew for everything bad that is happening to you is an easy escape. Now its the foreign workers stealing the jobs btw., because "jews" would be too obvious. So the core is "blame others and dont look accept that life can be tough". It is the same with all the conspiracy theories (about UFOs or 9/11) ... some people cant accept the fact that "bad things can happen without anyone being responsible for them OR that you can make mistakes (like misjudging the strength of your military OR missing the signs for an attack by AlQaeda)". Shit happens sometimes .... Hate of the Jews dates far back into medieval period. They were different and separated themselves socially so they were a good scapegoat for anything bad. Plus they killed Jesus of course. Nazis (and communists, and Polish, and .....) just used that existing sentiment.
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On November 13 2012 22:25 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 15:53 Mallard86 wrote: Jews have been a scapegoat for centuries. The only reason anti-antisemitism has died down in the west over the last few decades is because of the growth of PC as well as a collective guilt/pity over the Holocaust.
The question is why are Jews so hated over the centuries? The answer is relatively simple. In the west, most communities have been homogenous. You live in a catholic town or you live in a protestant town. Jews are kind of separate from the communities due to different religion and thus different assemblies and traditions. Being separate or different has historically been a liability. There may be some carry-over of historical Judeophobia into modern anti-semitism, but anyone with a basic understanding of the intellectual history of modern Germany will find the Goldhagen thesis untenable. There is a world of difference between traditional anti-Jewish feeling of the villages, the synthecist debates during the Jewish enlightenment from a C.W. von Dohm, and national-folkish anti-semitism of a Wilhelm Marr. Categorising people like the Nazis as exploiting traditional Catholic prejudices about Jews is as unhistorical as you can get. Anyone claiming to have read Mein Kampf will easily recognise the distinction Hitler makes when recounting the crystallisation of his own anti-semitism: Show nested quote +
To-day it is hard and almost impossible for me to say when the word 'Jew' first began to raise any particular thought in my mind. I do not remember even having heard the word at home during my father's lifetime. If this name were mentioned in a derogatory sense I think the old gentleman would just have considered those who used it in this way as being uneducated reactionaries. In the course of his career he had come to be more or less a cosmopolitan, with strong views on nationalism, which had its effect on me as well. In school, too, I found no reason to alter the picture of things I had formed at home.
At the REALSCHULE I knew one Jewish boy. We were all on our guard in our relations with him, but only because his reticence and certain actions of his warned us to be discreet. Beyond that my companions and myself formed no particular opinions in regard to him.
It was not until I was fourteen or fifteen years old that I frequently ran up against the word 'Jew', partly in connection with political controversies. These references aroused a slight aversion in me, and I could not avoid an uncomfortable feeling which always came over me when I had to listen to religious disputes. But at that time I had no other feelings about the Jewish question.
There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their Faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.
Then I came to Vienna.
Confused by the mass of impressions I received from the architectural surroundings and depressed by my own troubles, I did not at first distinguish between the different social strata of which the population of that mammoth city was composed. Although Vienna then had about two hundred thousand Jews among its population of two millions, I did not notice them. During the first weeks of my sojourn my eyes and my mind were unable to cope with the onrush of new ideas and values. Not until I gradually settled down to my surroundings, and the confused picture began to grow clearer, did I acquire a more discriminating view of my new world. And with that I came up against the Jewish problem.
I will not say that the manner in which I first became acquainted with it was particularly unpleasant for me. In the Jew I still saw only a man who was of a different religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I was against the idea that he should be attacked because he had a different faith. And so I considered that the tone adopted by the anti-Semitic Press in Vienna was unworthy of the cultural traditions of a great people. The memory of certain events which happened in the middle ages came into my mind, and I felt that I should not like to see them repeated. Generally speaking, these anti-Semitic newspapers did not belong to the first rank--but I did not then understand the reason of this--and so I regarded them more as the products of jealousy and envy rather than the expression of a sincere, though wrong-headed, feeling.
Not any of the top Nazis fit the old-fashioned profile of the anti-semite, and many did not even fit the profile of the biological determinist. Hitler said it himself: the Jews are a race of the spirit, not of the flesh. That is one of the elemental problems addressed by my previous intrusion into the argument. That people, due to the Nazi past, are united and determined to resist the proliferation of anti-semitism, it is clear. Unfortunately, they don't really understand what they are trying to resist. Hence not only the historical, but also the moral feebleness of their efforts. That argument makes no sense. There is no need for nazi leadership to be influenced by historical anti-semitism for their success to convince general population to be attributable to it. Or that they even willingly used those historical sentiments.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 14 2012 01:38 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 01:19 MoltkeWarding wrote:On November 14 2012 01:10 Reason wrote: "The only things we learn from history are how to distort our behaviour sufficiently to be blind to the next lesson."
Please explain in depth because that sounds absolutely terrible. The lesson Great Britain learned from the July crisis of 1914 was that much bloodshed could have been spared if the governments had behaved less rashly, played less brinkmanship and allowed the calmer spirit of compromise to reign. This lesson was erroneously applied in October 1938 in Munich. The lesson Great Britain learned from appeasement was that dictators must be challenged and preferably strangled in the crib, via pre-emptive action. That lesson was erroneously applied in October 1956 in the Suez. Please do not misinterpret me when I say that "lessons of history" do not exist. I am a historian, and I place great value on the study of history. What I will say is that learning history as a whole gives you greater insight into the complexities of human nature, and allows you to exercise better judgement. However to gift wrap and package certain episodes as fundamental doctrines, to pretend that understanding history gives you any ability to understand the future, is one of the greatest fallacies of historical analysis. Then how do you suggest we proceed? first recognize the moral feebleness of the effort to call nazis bad, of course.
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On November 14 2012 01:41 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 15:38 Rabiator wrote:On November 13 2012 15:30 oneofthem wrote: i always am curious why nazis hate jews. what's the basis for this idea? After we lost in WW1 Hitler - who was in the army during that time - and others tried to blame others for the loss. There was the "Dolchstosslegende" (that we would have won, but the home front gave up and thus stabbed the glorious military in the back) and Hitler just came up with the jews. That has stuck since then and it is easy to do ... just blame a jew for everything bad that is happening to you is an easy escape. Now its the foreign workers stealing the jobs btw., because "jews" would be too obvious. So the core is "blame others and dont look accept that life can be tough". It is the same with all the conspiracy theories (about UFOs or 9/11) ... some people cant accept the fact that "bad things can happen without anyone being responsible for them OR that you can make mistakes (like misjudging the strength of your military OR missing the signs for an attack by AlQaeda)". Shit happens sometimes .... Hate of the Jews dates far back into medieval period. They were different and separated themselves socially so they were a good scapegoat for anything bad. Plus they killed Jesus of course. Nazis (and communists, and Polish, and .....) just used that existing sentiment.
It's a sentiment that was at least tolerated in wide parts of Europe at the time (especially in the UK Aristocracy). Sadly, in Germany a group of Fascists without any morals came into power, and they used it for a (at the time) unparalleled genocide.
To people saying Fascism is solely a German thing, and it's in our "genes". Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave
It's an experiment done by a US teacher in a high school. He basically showed that NO ONE is immune to the appeal of fascism. I remember reading the book about this experiment in school, there was also at least one film about this.
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