On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
On February 03 2014 22:41 mau5mat wrote: Duration decrease won't really impact TvP, which arguably needs the most attention right now. I guess they don't want to drastically lower it for the sake of PvP and how volatile the match up is, surely there are other angles they could balance it from.
Time Warp energy increase is a good step, but ultimately not enough. Vision range NEEDS to be reduced, amongst other things.
Can't really comment on Tempest, it seems this unit is being tweaked due to how Swarm Host ZvP games usually work out, instead of buffing the Tempest, why are they not addressing one of the worst designed units in the game (Swarm Host) instead?
Ghost upgrade doesn't really address the issues people are having in TvP. While it is a pretty strong change, it fails to help Terrans early game options, and instead seems to be a change that will only impact timings in the mid game. I hear people talking that it will completely shut down HT openers, but if you want a ghost or two for the usual timing (around 10 minutes) you need to cut 300/200 minerals and gas from somewhere to afford it, you either delay upgrades/medivacs/or how early your timing is just to have ghosts out for the push. It will be forgiving on Terrans who have bad macro, apart from that I don't see how it helps with what people are having difficulty with.
The Zerg change is just really baseless, I have no idea why they want to even think about testing this change. The impact it would have especially on ZvP is just silly.
I honestly do not know how I would propose to fix the TvP issues. I feel the Mothership Core is too valuable offensively and defensively. Objectively Protoss have more VIABLE early game options that the Terran currently, powerful 1 base and 2 base timings, while having the option for safe, greedy macro focused play, which culminates in a powerful, hard to handle late game army. TvP feels stagnant on the Terran side, and I honestly don't know how Blizzard will address this without drastically changing the match up.
the ghost change isn´t strong at all. A lot of people are overestimating the cost of the upgrade when going ghosts. Most master league players are able to time out their first ghosts well enough that they start right at around 41 seconds of the upgrade. So we speak about 40 seconds that you get your ghosts earlier... And this is only relevant for defensive timings. Offensive timings are completely untouched, since you get the energy for one emp on your way to the protoss base. So in the end, terrans, going into the lategame, save 100/100... at a time where they will be on 3bases in most cases. Don´t know how in the world this can be considered strong.
So in summary, the most sensible counter-suggestions for the msc include:
- Sight Range - Casting Range - Cooldown - Photon Overcharge channeling (with ability to cancel) - Time Warp/Recall research upgrade from Cybernetics Core - Time Warp radius size - Mana cost
Whatever option or combination of options would be best should be decided from testing.
I like how the mana cost for photon overcharge and time warp is different. It can make a Protoss panic and waste a time warp, but if they cost the same the decision is easy.
I'm not sure on the channeling as it could make protoss more vulnerable to oracles. I'd be happy to try it on a test map though.
Research upgrade could allow for a scouting opponent to see both a twilight council and the cybercore researching. It would also force chrono boost to be spent differently, perhaps. Actually, I'm surprised that the msc has three spells available immediately for such a low-tech req caster. in wc3 you had to upgrade your casters...
Just some on-the-fly thoughts from a gold protoss.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
Really? Twitch chat itself is getting more toxic. Or do you really believe that players that choose Terran somehow has a more whiny personality ? Did you see the whines from protosses on Twitch when Daedulus is played in PvZ? It is just as bad.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
I don't think he is... On the other hand, he says the game may not be as unbalanced as some people say.
should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
On February 03 2014 16:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote: re: Hydra Buff~
While this may not be the correct solution, Zerg does need some form off anti-air buff. As it stands, the only way to deal with mid-lategame mech or mid-lategame skytoss is with mass spores (&viper/swarmhost) causing the turtle games everyone hates to watch. Instead, a smaller hydra buff in addition to a corruptor buff could be feasible (corruptors really are trash units 90% of the time), or reverting one of the two HotS void ray buffs
How would a balancescaling adjustment in the likes of this sound given the presented ideas from you:
- Removing mutalisk rapid regeneration to make stalker + storms more viable against those
- Increasing the damage from corrupters from 14 (20 vs massive) to 16 (20 vs massive) for better anti voidray and compensating for mutalisk nerf
(2 less shots in order to kill a voidray) takes 18 with 14 dmg, 16 shots with 16 dmg (1 less shot to kill a phoenix) takes 13 with 14 dmg, 12 shots with 14 dmg
Damage versus carrier, tempest and colossus remains the same.
Damage is exponentially increased by the 20% damage bonus from corruption.
I believe corrupters wont really be used against banshees or medivacs as mutas has the mobile ability, so the only thing they can be used against in ZVT is battlecruisers, ravens and vikings. Versus vikings there will be a buff, and I think its fair given most corrupters are taking damage from ravens in mech lategame related situations.
The mutalisk nerf is also to be considered for ZVT, so a corrupter buff should be reasonable.
- Removing enduced locusts OR increase tempest damage from 30 to 30+30 vs structures
This is for obvious anti-swarmhost lategame situations. Reasons have already been explained by pros for this.
- Reduce vision on MSC from 14 to 11
I think this is good, but can cause problems for proxy scouting in PVP. Reasons have already been explained by pros for this.
- Increase hydralisk armor with 1
This is for anti-bio playstyle and versatility in ZVZ and ZVT. With a mutalisk nerf I think this compensates great.
Also, when mutas gets nerfed, protosses should not be able to whine about the risk of getting ling-hydraed into mutalisk.
With hydra armor, we will also see that phoenixes do less of a threat to them with pickups. How strong hydra timings then will be would depend on how great the mutalisk threat is. I think this will in the end result in what blizzard wants: A more core playstyle with hydras.
In your perspective, how would these changes sound to you?
I do not think nerfing voidrays is good since they have a variety of utility for earlygame ZVP as well. Buffing corrupters seems more reasonable.
Aside from this, removing energy upgrade for ghosts is something I am still unsure of. Requires testing.
I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
Really? Twitch chat itself is getting more toxic. Or do you really believe that players that choose Terran somehow has a more whiny personality ? Did you see the whines from protosses on Twitch when Daedulus is played in PvZ? It is just as bad.
Nah, protoss won't say "those zerg skills" "30 APM and win easy" or things like that. They will say something like "this map is so BS" or "Daedalus, protoss is screwed". Something about the map, I rarely see people bashing the other races as hard as protoss are.
About the reason why protoss whine less / are more bashed, I think it's because P usually requires less APM. I also think it has something to do with the fact that P units are usually more expensive, each unit looks more OP. Even if terrans and zergs are aware the protoss units are more expensive so they need to be more powerful, I suppose they will tend to see them OP and annoying more naturally. That + some gimmicky plays from P, the warp in and the FF must be irritating to many players, making them more eager to whine. TBH I don't really know as I almost never play zerg and terran.
The thing is about us vocal whining Terrans is that I think most of us are plat/diamond/masters and at this level it's not about Protoss being OP. It's about them being much easier to play.
"Oh I forgot to macro for a whole minute... WARP IN YAY!!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I wasn't looking at my army for 2 seconds, it's still very much alive cause tons of HP YAY!!!!!!!"
"Oh, i'm battling a Terran. I'll keep a moving forward and being able to macro a bit while the Terran endlessly stutter steps or dies YAY!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to buy time. Force fields and nexus cannon YAY!!!!!!!!"
"Oh, I need to scout. Hallucinate, observers, oracles, blah blah blah"
Terrans macro is harder, the micro is much more demanding, viable army comps are a glass cannon, and Terrans actually have to use creative tactics to buy themselves time. It's not the balance. It's the mechanics of playing toss that are lol worthy. It's like literally every core part of the game is easier to do as Protoss than Terran.
And I was also a much higher ranking Protoss player when I first played SC2, even though I'm much more experienced now and play Terran.
On February 03 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote: I've read a couple of times now that 'Ghost are really good but Terrans don't use them well'- I honestly don't know what people mean with that. I for sure have pretty horrendous Ghost control, but any non1 number of HT vs non 1 number of Ghost in a perfect micro situation favors the HT (which never occurs btw).
On February 02 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote: By the way, I proposed a change to Overcharge casting recently. Making Overcharge a Channeling spell (and thus cancellable) and giving MSC a small defensive bonus while channeling. That''d fix SO much.
And nobody responds to this. It'd allow for counterplay, dedicating all ins again, and force good positioning with the MSC.
I kinda prefer the solutions proposed by Minigun about the MSC. Being a channeling spell wouldn7t change so much imo, any decent player would be able to keep his MSC safe during the cast.
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
I don't think he is... On the other hand, he says the game may not be as unbalanced as some people say.
should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
THIS is definitely a true statement.
I would agree that it isn't as bad as back then. But in terms of the pro scene, the fact that players are much better now make the imbalances more glaring. Since back then, players frequently made major mistakes that lost them games regardless. Pro players now make less mistakes (or smaller ones) so 'balance' plays a bigger part in the outcome. Code S has 3 Terrans.
I know some Protoss will say some of the top Terrans aren't playing in KR. But the past weekend, the top Terrans that many people listed Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja were all in action and they were competing mostly with Koreans zergs/pro tosses that are playing in EU. And Ps still won out. So one could argue that even if all the Koreans were still playing in KR, the distribution would be similar.
Am I saying there is only 3 Terrans just of imbalance, no. Some players did underperform, but the margin of error is much lower for Terran right now. You can watch the games and point out mistakes each Terran made, but you can do the same for their Protoss opponents as well. Right now, if both players play at the same 'level', the Protoss will likely win. Of course, the map pool isn't helping.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Protoss can also open VRs or Oracle into VR/Phoenix. They can also open with gateway expands into blink if they perform reasonable pressure in between. And as you said, various 2base perform well against mutas as well. Like the only openings that are straight up bad against mutas are DTs and Colossi.
And ffs, if Stargate is the best opening and can transition into basically whatever you want, then god damn use it. Zergs also should open roaches against FFEs, and rush melee ups against bio, Terran has to open hellions against Zerg and reaper/reactor against Protoss. The fact that you don't have to build a Stargate under all circumstances is already a strategical luxury that not every race in every matchup has.
Well, opening with like one Viodray or Oracle, into Phoenixes, is still Phoenix opening. You can open with blink, but it has to be 2-base all-in or greedy third into mass Phoenix, if Zerg goes Mutas. 2-base all-ins are good against Mutas, becouse they hit before larger number of Mutas is on the field. I don't like, that only option against Mutas is Phoenix, since HotS blink Stalkers cannot catch up with Mutas, becouse buffed speed, and defensive HTs aren't option either, becouse of insane regen. But I didn't want to talk about Muta problem here, although I think Mutas are too strong in TvZ too. I was trying to say, that Zerg has only 2 options in ZvP, one of them is Mutas, which requires blind countering in every game from Protoss (big design issue IMO), and second leads to very long (this is not neccesarilly bad though) and boring games (which is huge design issue as well).
It's pretty disgusting when after 80% of my ladder wins vs terran the terran will tell me how !@#$ing bull!@#$ and op my race is and how it takes no skill. This is mostly because of mob balance mentality. Players like avilo who whine constantly are just conditioning you to think that he's right. The more terrans that whine about balance the more other terran players start to think that the game is imbalanced.
Maybe protoss is slightly overpowered atm. I certainly think oracle/blink all in nerf would be a good idea but should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
I just insta /block every terran i meet nowadays. Problem solved.
Terrans learn to whine from the best, Protoss players. Look at the sad zealot fan club, it conditioned the Protoss players to think Protoss were underpowered.
*facepalm* Protoss WERE underpowered at the time. You seriously going to try and claim the 1-1-1 period wasn't a big deal? It took several buffs and map changes to fix those problems up. And then Broodlord Infestor happened.
On topic: TLO giving the most balanced view here. And this Hydra thing is...well its going to be interesting. >_>
*facepalm*. Are you really trying to STILL say the TvP match up has no problems NOW? Stop burying your head in your sand and ignore the issues with the match up. Are all the Terrans suggest fix viable, no. But if you feel nothing needs to be done with the match up (units, maps) , then I don't know what to say. Even most Protoss players in the forums now agree that some changes are needed.
I don't think he is... On the other hand, he says the game may not be as unbalanced as some people say.
should I have to hear how op and how skill less I am after every game? Certainly not.
THIS is definitely a true statement.
I would agree that it isn't as bad as back then. But in terms of the pro scene, the fact that players are much better now make the imbalances more glaring. Since back then, players frequently made major mistakes that lost them games regardless. Pro players now make less mistakes (or smaller ones) so 'balance' plays a bigger part in the outcome. Code S has 3 Terrans.
I know some Protoss will say some of the top Terrans aren't playing in KR. But the past weekend, the top Terrans that many people listed Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, Taeja were all in action and they were competing mostly with Koreans zergs/pro tosses that are playing in EU. And Ps still won out. So one could argue that even if all the Koreans were still playing in KR, the distribution would be similar.
Am I saying there is only 3 Terrans just of imbalance, no. Some players did underperform, but the margin of error is much lower for Terran right now. You can watch the games and point out mistakes each Terran made, but you can do the same for their Protoss opponents as well. Right now, if both players play at the same 'level', the Protoss will likely win. Of course, the map pool isn't helping.
Now that a few tournaments have been played, I definitely agree that PvT balanced needs to be fixed.
On February 03 2014 03:54 fighter2_40 wrote: It's interesting to see the pros opinions but seeing them is really revealing of their racial biases. Some pros decline from commenting on matchups they don't play but others make blanket statements about unit changes without considering all matchups. It's also disgusting how biased some are towards their own race: mma (perhaps as a joke) and mostly desrow.
Of all of these comments, mini guns seems to take the big picture view the most. TLO is also very unbiased here except for not realizing the insignificance of the mscore change in tvp
How am I biased when I say that the photon overcharge nerf is good and that the defenders advantage should be reduced for Protoss ?!!? The timewarp comment was meant more of a joke/stab at the balance whiners but 75 is too good and 100 should help. A lot of the feedback on the timewarp change is negative while I think it will help a lot because a fresh mothershipcore will take a lot longer to be useful.
balance whiners?
How about the sad zealot Fanclub? or did protoss forget about that? why is protoss using winrate now instead of tournament winners (like they did before protoss were winning tournaments, now that tournament finals are PvP, they want to talk about win rate instead of tournament winners? wtF? .
This was just not the same level. First the whine wasn't as toxic as what it was recently. Also the duration of the protoss slump was much much bigger. I did not want to argue about that but man, there is ABSOLUTELY no way protoss are harder than terran when it comes to balance whine. Fortunately here it's still relatively calm, but look at Twitch chat, slumping protoss has never whined that much on Twitch (I know this is an extreme example but it's still a good way to compare).
Really? Twitch chat itself is getting more toxic. Or do you really believe that players that choose Terran somehow has a more whiny personality ? Did you see the whines from protosses on Twitch when Daedulus is played in PvZ? It is just as bad.
Nah, protoss won't say "those zerg skills" "30 APM and win easy" or things like that. They will say something like "this map is so BS" or "Daedalus, protoss is screwed". Something about the map, I rarely see people bashing the other races as hard as protoss are.
About the reason why protoss whine less / are more bashed, I think it's because P usually requires less APM. I also think it has something to do with the fact that P units are usually more expensive, each unit looks more OP. Even if terrans and zergs are aware the protoss units are more expensive so they need to be more powerful, I suppose they will tend to see them OP and annoying more naturally. That + some gimmicky plays from P, the warp in and the FF must be irritating to many players, making them more eager to whine. TBH I don't really know as I almost never play zerg and terran.
And what about complains about marines? Or SCV pulls? MULES? Protoss whine just as much.
On February 03 2014 20:33 kandiru wrote: Rather than buff the hydralisk, why not make Corrupters not so rubbish against void rays? Make corruption have a (very)small AoE so its more easily targeted on clumped up void rays, and make it cancel/block the use of abilities for the duration. That way you can prevent vikings from landing, and remove void ray prismatic alignment, and cancel/prevent Yamato Cannon if you get close enough.
Void rays could kite back away after the corruption and come back Prismatic Alignment activated after the corruption expired, etc.
You could even use Corruption on stalkers to prevent blink if you were supporting roaches with corrupters.
Would be a more interesting change than halving the gas cost of hydralisks!
We don't need more micro limiting abilities in this game. I'm also not sure the aoe will accomplish much, voids tend to not clump as much because of how slow they are, so the aoe would need to be quite substantial. Finally, the real problem with corrupter is that they totally and utterly melt to void rays, due to the rays doing bonus vs armored, add storms and/or archons and the problem is even worst.
There are two kinds of balance whine. One: "I lose cause PROTOSS OP". Two: "MAKE MY RACE OP"
We have number two here .
On a more serious note: what about buffing ghosts via reducing mineral costs? And, whatthefuck hydras? I just hope this is a "Let's do it to rage the Community" move, and not a serious plan.
So you think that void ray vs corruptor is an even fair fight? I thought that quite reasonable solution to giving zerg some chance to fight air toss without super turtle.
No, it's not. But maybe, just maybe, reason for that is, that Voids are supposed to cunter Corruptors...
But i agree, that Zerg anti-air should be buffed (or Protoss air nerfed). I think ZvP is in really wierd spot right now. Zerg has like two viable options, those are Mutas and SHs. On the other hand, Protoss has to open Phoenixes or 2 base all-in, becouse if he doesn't, he just die to Mutas horribly. So Protoss usually goes for some sort of Stargate opening, and game transitions into 2 hours long SH/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor vs Collosus/Voidray/Tempest/HT/Archon boredom. But if the Hydra buff will go through, we will get rid of these games, becouse Protoss wil ljust die to Hydra all-in every game. So at least, we won't have to watch SH games.
Its just strange to see a flying ANTI AIR unit being massed to counter air units but get completely smashed by said air unit.
So you're saying, that Corruptor should counter entire Protoss air? Voidrays are designed to counter Corruptors, and this is intended.