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Hello, Just wanted to pitch an idea and see your general thoughts on the idea, if you guys dont mind. But What if,,,,
here it comes! What if you took chrono boost and other macro related spells and put it on the mothership core? Keeping the mothership a defensive tool, it would be able to chronoboost multiple buildings like before, while maintaining the presence for the pylon overcharge. generally i liked the idea because protoss i think is the only one to have a unit in such a unique position that you can only build one of them. The idea of the "mothership" patrolling the base, managing it and defending it i thought would be a cool distinction between races as well. speed might be a concern but why an idea i thought to combat that was once blink was unlocked, mothership core unlocks blink as well.
Maybe to much?
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I'm in the 'msc should not even exist' camp. If gateway units were stronger, the msc would not be necessary.
But now that it's here, I think msc snipes will be even deadlier and will cripple protosses really hard, so it would need more hp (and less dmg?) to compensate.
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But...if gateway units are stronger, then how do you stop proxy rushes? And if you make them stronger via early upgrades, then that is still delayed tech. If you make build time longer, that still probably wouldn't stop proxy rushes. If you make pylons only available near nexus, that nerfs all protoss aggression....
I would agree that it would be nice to have strong gateway units w/o the need for the msc, but I'm not sure how you can make protoss gateway stronger without overly nerfing tech time and without making proxy rushes that much harder.
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Proxy rushes? in lotv you start with 12 workers, the fastest probe you can send will still arrive like 10 seconds too late to make a pylon on time, and by the time that pylon finishes you'll have 500 minnerals, its fair to say proxy builds are dead so stop talking about them like they're a thing.
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If gateway units were stronger then so would be the early allins that everyone loves to complain about.
MSC gives a defenders advantage without buffing the big gateways allins. It's not a pretty solution, but it gets the job done.
Of course they could have moved the warpgate tech into a lategame building, remove MSC and buff gateway units. This has been suggested a bilion times and they decided to keep the hero unit instead. Probably because early game warp gives more build diversity to protoss, instead of becoming the "turtle up until warpgate" race.
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I think that is not that hard if you think well.
.- MSC removed.
- Protoss' access to macrobooster standarized. (pay 100-150 mins for access to macrooboster after Gateway)
- Photon overcharge as it is, Chronoboost stronger and Recall casted from Nexus (energy competition). Rebalanced energy costs and max energy from Nexus, more similar to Terran status.
- Gateway build times equal to warpgate ones. No more chronoboosted rushes (also new econ is more defensive)
- Balance warpgate a bit better, maybe delay it.
Enjoy more balanced all-ins, empowered macrooboosters, Broodwaresque flavor, no turtling until Warpgate, better defender's advantage due to empowered Gateways, and so.
I've always thought that a big problem for Protoss is that CB always had to be the weak macrobooster because obviously, it was free. Protoss macro strength was nerfed in the first patches of WoL beta (Warpgate, CB and Zealot build times) because obviously it had a monstruous impact in the early game and rushes. Other races have a bit slower start but accelerate much faster than Toss.
If we can rebalance the early game, we could bring some air to the Protoss early game, which is very very dependant on MSC / Warpgate 100% of the games. I think that design-wise being obligated to have hero unit and core upgrade as a must to be able to compete with anything it's bad.
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I don't think that it is necessary to meddle with Protoss' macro mechanic. I would just remove MsC and make Warpgate research require a Twilight Council. To compensate I would reduce build times of units on gateways and maybe buff movement speed of Sentries and Immortals. One more thing I would definitely change is Charge. It is a mindless ability. I would reintroduce Zealot legs upgrade and buff the movement speed accordingly (to be similar to bio stim speed) and remove Concussive Shells from the game.
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On October 07 2015 20:14 CheddarToss wrote: I would just remove MsC and make Warpgate research require a Twilight Council. Maybe offensive warp ins (proxy pylons and warp prism) should be a separate upgrade at the Twilight Council instead? - early defensive warp ins still possible - the upgrade would compete with Blink, which is also very valuable -> more strategic choices
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On October 07 2015 20:20 Valyrian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 20:14 CheddarToss wrote: I would just remove MsC and make Warpgate research require a Twilight Council. Maybe offensive warp ins (proxy pylons and warp prism) should be a separate upgrade at the Twilight Council instead? - early defensive warp ins still possible - the upgrade would compete with Blink, which is also very valuable -> more strategic choices I'm not sure that would be necessary. Currently Protoss don't utilize Gateways to the full potential, because they bank money waiting for WG research to complete. With shorter build times and WG research further down the tech tree, Gateway units would be built more steadily, just like a Terran constantly pumps out Bio out of his Rax. But, should that turn out to not be enough, I would prefer further buffing Gateway units and leaving WG research require TC to a convoluted WG tech.
Edit: One such additional buff would be the consolidation of Templar tech. The DT Shrine, with its heavy gas cost, ridiculously long build time and no additional upgrades always seemed like a nerf, which was only necessary because WG tech was available too early.
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On October 07 2015 20:14 CheddarToss wrote: I don't think that it is necessary to meddle with Protoss' macro mechanic. I would just remove MsC and make Warpgate research require a Twilight Council. To compensate I would reduce build times of units on gateways and maybe buff movement speed of Sentries and Immortals. One more thing I would definitely change is Charge. It is a mindless ability. I would reintroduce Zealot legs upgrade and buff the movement speed accordingly (to be similar to bio stim speed) and remove Concussive Shells from the game.
This is interesting. I fear it's probably too radical a change though, literally throwing off every timing and all the feel pros have developed over the last five years.
I know you don't like this idea, but I think it has merit: put PO at the Nexus, make it more expensive, and revert to HotS CB. Now you don't need the stupid MsC to cast PO (because the Nexus would cast it onto Pylons), and there is energy tension between your Macro Booster and your defensive ability (like Scan or Creep tumor/Transfuse).
Somehow I never realized that Protoss doesn't have to spend money to gain access to their macro booster. Ha. No cost, no energy tension, just a completely free thing on autocast?
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On October 07 2015 20:55 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 20:20 Valyrian wrote:On October 07 2015 20:14 CheddarToss wrote: I would just remove MsC and make Warpgate research require a Twilight Council. Maybe offensive warp ins (proxy pylons and warp prism) should be a separate upgrade at the Twilight Council instead? - early defensive warp ins still possible - the upgrade would compete with Blink, which is also very valuable -> more strategic choices I'm not sure that would be necessary. Currently Protoss don't utilize Gateways to the full potential, because they bank money waiting for WG research to complete. With shorter build times and WG research further down the tech tree, Gateway units would be built more steadily, just like a Terran constantly pumps out Bio out of his Rax. But, should that turn out to not be enough, I would prefer further buffing Gateway units and leaving WG research require TC to a convoluted WG tech. Edit: One such additional buff would be the consolidation of Templar tech. The DT Shrine, with its heavy gas cost, ridiculously long build time and no additional upgrades always seemed like a nerf, which was only necessary because WG tech was available too early.
I make few units out of my gateways generally because I don't need to, not because I'm waiting for Warpgate. Protoss needs few units early because you can defend with MsC and attacking is pointless. So you just build 1 MsC, 1 Adept and then tech...
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