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Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts?
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On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts?
Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism).
Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO.
Makes TvT really dumb as well.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Just remove liberator's circle range and allow them to shoot at 360 degree like aerial siege tank with good single-target damage.
Give liberators their air-to-ground range upgrade by default.
Increase liberator air-to-air weapon range from 5 to 6 or 7
Allow liberators to transform through upgrade.
Make Liberators light? So then they become viable in TvT against siege tanks (can 2 shot them) and vikings (not armored), and they can be countered by Phoenixes, Thors and can't be countered so effectively by Vikings. Make Liberators as good counter to vikings. Try to force them into TvT meta.
And remove flying siege tanks at all.
imo
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On November 18 2015 06:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts? Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism). Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO. Makes TvT really dumb as well.
Ravagers counter non-flying tanks. And early on in a TvZ atm you can have 10 ravagers+ vs like 3-4 tanks = dead tanks to the "skill shot." Liberators also are hard countered by ravagers. Banshees are the counter when they have speed but that comes later on in the game.
Tank+medivac i agree is really bad in TvT for gameplay, but the other match-ups not so much because tanks in general are weaker in TvZ/TvP.
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On November 18 2015 07:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:58 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts? Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism). Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO. Makes TvT really dumb as well. Ravagers counter non-flying tanks. And early on in a TvZ atm you can have 10 ravagers+ vs like 3-4 tanks = dead tanks to the "skill shot." Liberators also are hard countered by ravagers. Banshees are the counter when they have speed but that comes later on in the game. Tank+medivac i agree is really bad in TvT for gameplay, but the other match-ups not so much because tanks in general are weaker in TvZ/TvP.
I don't think you need Banshee speed to micro away from Ravagers' "skill" shot. If my lowly Diamond off-race Terran can do it you certainly can!
Shouldn't the more pressing discussion be "why the fuck are Ravagers hatch tech?"
Seems like a more productive discussion than trying to justify flying tanks IMO.
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On November 18 2015 07:07 Existor wrote: Just remove liberator's circle range and allow them to shoot at 360 degree like aerial siege tank with good single-target damage.
Give liberators their air-to-ground range upgrade by default.
Increase liberator air-to-air weapon range from 5 to 6 or 7
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Okay.
Now I've heard I all.
So you want to make the entire map THE LIBERATION ZONE?
Hey, enemies of the Dominion.. come here and GET LIBERATED.
Seriously... best idea yet.
Keep 'em coming.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Shouldn't the more pressing discussion be "why the fuck are Ravagers hatch tech?" Why not? They still cost enought and take 3 supply. They are weaker than roach (less health).
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On November 18 2015 07:20 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +Shouldn't the more pressing discussion be "why the fuck are Ravagers hatch tech?" Why not? They still cost enought and take 3 supply. They are weaker than roach (less health).
It's not the Ravager that is the problem but rather the oppressive timing at which corrosive bile hits the field. It's a very strong and versatile ability that can break walls and outranges static defense.
The tech necessary to defend against this comes much later in the tech tree for the other races...
Thats' why it's a bit BS that Ravagers WITH corrosive bile are available that early.
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If Tanks were better on their own I would agree that the Medivac lifting up sieged tanks is dumb, but problem is tanks have been getting hard countered ever since SC2 has been released. It really feels like Medivacs are the only way tanks remain viable in MUs, especially now that TvT has Liberators which can kill a tank in two shots and completely invalidates Vikings in a head-to-head fight.
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On November 18 2015 06:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts? Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism). Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO. Makes TvT really dumb as well.
How do tanks and liberators hold ravager allins? Please tell me, I'm genuinely curious.
And on that note, how the fuck do you kill a warp prism with a viking?
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Liberators and Corrosive bile should not be the logic behind keeping flying tanks in the game...
At least disable Medivac boost when it's carrying a tank.
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On November 18 2015 07:44 DinoMight wrote: Liberators and Corrosive bile should not be the logic behind keeping flying tanks in the game...
At least disable Medivac boost when it's carrying a tank.
Oh, I don't like flying tanks either, but what you're saying in previous posts just isn't true.
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On November 18 2015 07:44 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 06:58 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts? Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism). Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO. Makes TvT really dumb as well. How do tanks and liberators hold ravager allins? Please tell me, I'm genuinely curious. And on that note, how the fuck do you kill a warp prism with a viking?
Make a wall, place tanks behind it. Tanks have 13 range. Corrosive bile has 9.
Slows it down enough to where you can get Banshees out. Liberators can protect your tanks from anything getting too close to the wall.
Re: killing a warp prism with a Viking. You select the Viking, and you right click on the Warp Prism.
EDIT - the only SANE conclusion of this thread is that Corrosive bile needs to be delayed, not that Tanks need to fly.
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On November 18 2015 07:51 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 07:44 gillon wrote:On November 18 2015 06:58 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts? Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism). Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO. Makes TvT really dumb as well. How do tanks and liberators hold ravager allins? Please tell me, I'm genuinely curious. And on that note, how the fuck do you kill a warp prism with a viking? Make a wall, place tanks behind it. Tanks have 13 range. Corrosive bile has 9. Slows it down enough to where you can get Banshees out. Liberators can protect your tanks from anything getting too close to the wall. Re: killing a warp prism with a Viking. You select the Viking, and you right click on the Warp Prism.EDIT - the only SANE conclusion of this thread is that Corrosive bile needs to be delayed, not that Tanks need to fly. Is this a joke? A viking can only kill a warp prism if protoss fucks up.
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I'd love for tankivac to be removed. If blizz wants to keep the ability I'd prefer for being able to pick up sieged tanks but deploy them in tank mode. Tankivacs are not very strong or used much in other match ups atm, while removing a lot of tactical depth from TvT. It doesn't seem to accomplish anything other than fucking with TvT.
Not sure why it was implemented in the first place tbh. Tanks don't need mobility. They just need to hurt whatever they shoot at. That's something they just don't do to anything that isn't marines or banelings. Its not really a tank anymore its a shitty reaver that needs 2 shots to kill a worker.
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While I agree with some opinions (not DinoMights tho) the tank is in a wonky state:
On one hand, tanks are shit, they have been shit for some time and things doesn't seem to change.
And on the other, tanks drops are stupid, I think we all agree on that, they simply gutted the identity of the tank.
So is hard to say something like this, specially since Blizzard has been so adamant about not balancing the tank around overkill removal.
Right now, the fire delay is big enough that is almost the same as siegeing a tank (2 normal seconds vs 3 HotS seconds) wich makes the drop shit since you need both tanks and medivacs, with the exception of the 1 MU where you make both of those anyway, TvT.
Tanks are bad right now, mech sucks, and ravagers are stupid (really stupid) but its hard to say, I think that when Blizzard nerfs Liberators (wich they will since theres such a big uproar about them) they will address tanks (mostly since terran would suck right now if it wasn't for liberators being so strong)
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I've had a gutfull with how gutted these gutted tankivacs are these days.
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Ravagers counter non-flying tanks.
Not even close.
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yea im done playing until they fix the ravager its pointless trying when the other player and make 10+ ravagers and just "skill" shot his way to a free win its a joke and need to be fixed.
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On November 18 2015 08:10 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 07:51 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 07:44 gillon wrote:On November 18 2015 06:58 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2015 06:55 avilo wrote: Hey guys, avilo here with another thread about...dun dun dun Legacy of the Void gameplay.
In one of the last patches before LotV went live for multi-player, the siege tank+medivac micro was completely gutted. Blizzard added a 1.5 sec delay or so to the time in which a tank is able to fire upon being unloaded from a medivac.
The reasoning for this nerf or change was solely because of TvT - myself and many other Terrans complained (and rightfully so) that the tank+medivac in TvT removed a lot of the positioning and strategy from TvT games.
The problem?
Tank+medivac was fine, if not necessary to compete with Zerg and Protoss and was fine in those match-ups.
Tank+medivac micro allowed Terran to soft counter things like ravagers and early game adepts in a way that required the skill of the user and was very crisp and reminiscent of Brood War reaver drop micro.
You could theoretically hold off infinite units if you micro'd a tank and medivac very well. Obviously good players will shut down a single tank medivac quite easily, but the micro potential was there and it was amazing as a Terran to utilize this.
I feel like the tank + medivac changes should be reverted to be a crisp micro opportunity for Terran players again, instead of how it is now gutted and clunky to be of use.
The other reason i say this is because the nerf that gutted the tankivac did not do what it was supposed to do anyways - which was fix TvT. TvT tankivac is still absurdly stupid and removes a ton of forethought and skill from the game.
I would hope TL users and SC2 players would agree that the tankivac should be reverted to allow micro potential again, instead of remaining how it is which, in it's current form...is completely unmicro-able.
Thoughts? Terran has plenty of options to hold off Ravagers (non-flying Tanks, Banshees, Liberators) and Adepts (A wall? Viking or Cyclone to kill the warp prism). Siege tanks flying around are fucking stupid. They shouldn't be able to be picked up at all, IMO. Makes TvT really dumb as well. How do tanks and liberators hold ravager allins? Please tell me, I'm genuinely curious. And on that note, how the fuck do you kill a warp prism with a viking? Make a wall, place tanks behind it. Tanks have 13 range. Corrosive bile has 9. Slows it down enough to where you can get Banshees out. Liberators can protect your tanks from anything getting too close to the wall. Re: killing a warp prism with a Viking. You select the Viking, and you right click on the Warp Prism.EDIT - the only SANE conclusion of this thread is that Corrosive bile needs to be delayed, not that Tanks need to fly. Is this a joke? A viking can only kill a warp prism if protoss fucks up.
dinomite can't contain his protoss partisanship.
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