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On November 19 2015 19:08 `dunedain wrote: What they need to do for tanks is this:
First of all, leave tankivacs in play. They are a fresh new dynamic that works in other match-ups but not as well in TvT.
Next, add a new upgrade for tanks in the tech lab. One that raises it to 50dmg/shot but in turn, takes longer to siege/unsiege, and also once transformed, cannot be lifted by medivacs. "Foundation Mode" or something.
This way, the defending player, with that upgrade, doesn't need to worry about tankivacs being used against him in that situation because the defending tanks in "Foundation Mode" would be significantly stronger in a defenders position.
The end result is twofold. 1) It returns positional play to the match-up. 2) It'll give terrans more options esp now that some people have begun crying about the liberators.
That sounds like a downgrade, not an upgrade.
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On November 19 2015 20:13 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 19:08 `dunedain wrote: What they need to do for tanks is this:
First of all, leave tankivacs in play. They are a fresh new dynamic that works in other match-ups but not as well in TvT.
Next, add a new upgrade for tanks in the tech lab. One that raises it to 50dmg/shot but in turn, takes longer to siege/unsiege, and also once transformed, cannot be lifted by medivacs. "Foundation Mode" or something.
This way, the defending player, with that upgrade, doesn't need to worry about tankivacs being used against him in that situation because the defending tanks in "Foundation Mode" would be significantly stronger in a defenders position.
The end result is twofold. 1) It returns positional play to the match-up. 2) It'll give terrans more options esp now that some people have begun crying about the liberators. That sounds like a downgrade, not an upgrade.
This doesn't remove standard siege mode. There will be siege mode, foundation mode and mobile tank mode.
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On November 19 2015 20:57 `dunedain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 20:13 deth wrote:On November 19 2015 19:08 `dunedain wrote: What they need to do for tanks is this:
First of all, leave tankivacs in play. They are a fresh new dynamic that works in other match-ups but not as well in TvT.
Next, add a new upgrade for tanks in the tech lab. One that raises it to 50dmg/shot but in turn, takes longer to siege/unsiege, and also once transformed, cannot be lifted by medivacs. "Foundation Mode" or something.
This way, the defending player, with that upgrade, doesn't need to worry about tankivacs being used against him in that situation because the defending tanks in "Foundation Mode" would be significantly stronger in a defenders position.
The end result is twofold. 1) It returns positional play to the match-up. 2) It'll give terrans more options esp now that some people have begun crying about the liberators. That sounds like a downgrade, not an upgrade. This doesn't remove standard siege mode. There will be siege mode, foundation mode and mobile tank mode.
That just sounds inelegant and convoluted.
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On November 18 2015 08:12 royalroadweed wrote: I'd love for tankivac to be removed. If blizz wants to keep the ability I'd prefer for being able to pick up sieged tanks but deploy them in tank mode. Tankivacs are not very strong or used much in other match ups atm, while removing a lot of tactical depth from TvT. It doesn't seem to accomplish anything other than fucking with TvT.
Not sure why it was implemented in the first place tbh. Tanks don't need mobility. They just need to hurt whatever they shoot at. That's something they just don't do to anything that isn't marines or banelings. Its not really a tank anymore its a shitty reaver that needs 2 shots to kill a worker.
Its the contrary it adds depth. If you remove the ability you are limiting options which is the same as less depth. Please, dont use buzz words to justify things you dont like.
If we would replace the tank with another unit, everything would be ok and nobody would complain.
They already delayed the tank shot when it lands. Thats more than enough! Dont nerf the game, dont limit its options! Fun comes from more options and not from limitations.
Everytime you drop a tank close to opponents tanks it will take earlier damage than the opponents tanks which is fair enough. Also you cant justify that the player with only tanks should be stronger than the player who invested also in medivacs. Also mech compositions got more dynamic and mobile thanks to medivacs!
From my experience games in lotv are usually decided by micro and deathballs have less of an impact. If we nerf the new abilities and units we just return to the state of hots.
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On November 19 2015 21:33 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 08:12 royalroadweed wrote: I'd love for tankivac to be removed. If blizz wants to keep the ability I'd prefer for being able to pick up sieged tanks but deploy them in tank mode. Tankivacs are not very strong or used much in other match ups atm, while removing a lot of tactical depth from TvT. It doesn't seem to accomplish anything other than fucking with TvT.
Not sure why it was implemented in the first place tbh. Tanks don't need mobility. They just need to hurt whatever they shoot at. That's something they just don't do to anything that isn't marines or banelings. Its not really a tank anymore its a shitty reaver that needs 2 shots to kill a worker. Its the contrary it adds depth. If you remove the ability you are limiting options which is the same as less depth. Please, dont use buzz words to justify things you dont like. If we would replace the tank with another unit, everything would be ok and nobody would complain. They already delayed the tank shot when it lands. Thats more than enough! Dont nerf the game, dont limit its options! Fun comes from more options and not from limitations. Everytime you drop a tank close to opponents tanks it will take earlier damage than the opponents tanks which is fair enough. Also you cant justify that the player with only tanks should be stronger than the player who invested also in medivacs. Also mech compositions got more dynamic and mobile thanks to medivacs! From my experience games in lotv are usually decided by micro and deathballs have less of an impact. If we nerf the new abilities and units we just return to the state of hots.
Actually the word is used correctly. Depth is the weight of the choice made. By rolling out with siege tanks and putting them in siege mode, you're using positional play to do a lot of things. You're defending your base, applying pressure to the enemy, building your economy and advancing forward. At the same time it's only the tanks that allow this depth of a choice to happen, so the opponent has to get rid of those tanks to free up their options. Flying tanks get rid of that heavy choice.
The actual term you're looking for is Breadth. Breadth is the inverse of Depth in that the more choices you have, the less impactful your decisions are. This means the play and counterplay for tanks are far less impactful because they get to fly out of there.
In my honest opinion, "More options" is not always a good thing. It's why I dislike Blizzard's method of creating new units in that they always have to hard counter something instead of being units that synergizes with other units. What matters is the power behind those options and how they interact with your opponent.
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I thought watching some high level LotV TvT in the Shoutcraft was beautiful with flying tanks.
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adding options can decrease depth and/or breadth because the new options available may outweigh options which were previously available
most obvious example is adding an OP tier 4 unit that kills everything, or tier 1 if you want anything that you add may have implications in the game that removes whole branches of choices that were possible previously it is also possible to add/recover depth/breadth by removing things
to get depth/breadth in a strategy game (especially important) you want a well thought out system in which every part has a non-binary relationship ideally with every other part so that you get choices to react to anything which you can make taking account of everything else and so that situations or games never turn out the same though still based on reason and skill. Also allows players' personal styles to express better.
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On November 18 2015 08:13 Lexender wrote: Tanks are bad right now, mech sucks, and ravagers are stupid (really stupid) but its hard to say, I think that when Blizzard nerfs Liberators (wich they will since theres such a big uproar about them) they will address tanks (mostly since terran would suck right now if it wasn't for liberators being so strong)
I'd wait to see good player try mech before saying such things. However Turtle mech is indeed probably dead, which was the point of a lot of design changes in LoTV so they achieved what they wanted.
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