On March 29 2017 04:24 Sr18 wrote: I just fired up a dota2 bot game. Zero delay. Everything responded instantly. Puck's phase shift for instance, happened on screen before I even managed to fully press the hotkey for it. If there is a build in delay of several hundred ms, it's definitely not there in a lobby I hosted. I don't have time to test in a regular match. The bot game felt normal though, so I doubt there is much of a delay otherwise (other than ping, which is 0 for a locally hosted game and between 20-50 ms in a normal match).
I'm downloading Dota2, SC2 and HotS to get a definite answer. Will probably post results in 24 hours.
On March 29 2017 04:03 Philoctetes wrote: It is not a matter of updating. LAN latency for SC is also not the same as latency in single player, and neither is instantanious, as the game isn't forced to update prematurely just because it got an input/command.
BW and SC2 use the same amount of bandwith. A game like HoN uses about 10x as much. I played SC with a 28.8 baud modem. The netcode was written for that. Right now, I am on 1gbit fibreglass. Yet Blizzard seems to be forcing me to play with delay, because a player might be laggy and their netcode is too lazy to handle it smartly.
Just like the SC2 engine is fundamentally flawed to facilitate a crisp microable RTS, so their SC2 netcode has no regard for what type of game it is going to facilitate. Why? Because most of their player base doesn't seem to care. They never had as a design criteria for their netcode: "Ok guys. We need to find multiple tricks to keep this inbuild delay as low as possible, and come up with some intricate code for it." No. They just put in a delay, routed peer to peer, and that's that.
It is the same way as their game engine fundamentally doesn't alllow proper micro, because what kind of control the game engine would lead to was never a consideration in the minds or discussions of those that wrote the code at that time.
I am now very irate. I don't know how I shall sleep. I am only rage now. Thank you for showing me the light.
On March 29 2017 04:03 Philoctetes wrote: It is not a matter of updating. LAN latency for SC is also not the same as latency in single player, and neither is instantanious, as the game isn't forced to update prematurely just because it got an input/command.
BW and SC2 use the same amount of bandwith. A game like HoN uses about 10x as much. I played SC with a 28.8 baud modem. The netcode was written for that. Right now, I am on 1gbit fibreglass. Yet Blizzard seems to be forcing me to play with delay, because a player might be laggy and their netcode is too lazy to handle it smartly.
Just like the SC2 engine is fundamentally flawed to facilitate a crisp microable RTS, so their SC2 netcode has no regard for what type of game it is going to facilitate. Why? Because most of their player base doesn't seem to care. They never had as a design criteria for their netcode: "Ok guys. We need to find multiple tricks to keep this inbuild delay as low as possible, and come up with some intricate code for it." No. They just put in a delay, routed peer to peer, and that's that.
It is the same way as their game engine fundamentally doesn't alllow proper micro, because what kind of control the game engine would lead to was never a consideration in the minds or discussions of those that wrote the code at that time.
I am now very irate. I don't know how I shall sleep. I am only rage now. Thank you for showing me the light.
On March 28 2017 06:27 Spec1aLisT wrote: Can someone explain to me, if they will change the Latency completely and make it mandatory to everyone to play at Lan speeds? I Love the latency now(low latency). Because I play a game called Snipers and it needs it to be that way, otherwise the game mechanics are ruined.
There is no reason to think it won't have the same latency as WC3 and SC2; battle.net latency.
Blizzard has never patched LAN latency into SC with any of their patches, nor acknowledged it's importance for SC2. I get shivers about how everyone in 2017 playing DOTA2, LoL and SC2 is used to playing with 400ms delay.
Wc3 has the same built in delay. We're waiting on the day it gets fixed, too.
Well, with SC2 they kept the WC3 delay. Dota2 kept the Dota delay from WC3, to be more authentic. LoL has the same delay.
So most people got used to SC2 build-in delay, which would be completely unacceptable post-lan latency in SC BW. People got used to it. SC2 players stop caring. They either came from WC3, LoL, Dota2, and are used to it. When they came from LAN lat SC, they either quiit or stopped caring.
People used to build-in delay of SC2, WC3, Dota2, LoL, they say they don't feel it. They don't feel something is wrong.
But when you play HoN or SC, it is obvious something is wrong and it is unplayable 'until you get used to it'. Blizzard in beta even reduced the build-in delay for a while during SC2. Then they came out and said 'no one noticed it, as no one talked about it', and they promptly turned it back on.
There is 10,000 pages on balance talk on the SC2 page, but almost none on the build-in delay.
For me, there is no reason to 'get used to' a huge build-in delay. But I guess I am weird.
SC2 does not have a WC3-style delay. WC3 delay its literally 250ms when you're playing on Battle.net versus other forms of the game. Hence why even though WC3 has a built in ladder as opposed to BW, Battle.net is still unplayable with the delay and most serious people play on 3rd party platforms.
SC2 definitely does have a forced delay of about 200ms. Dota2 does too. HotS doesn't.
What? It absolutely does not. 200ms would be unplayable in today's modern environment. Dota 2 doesn't have any such delay either. What we're talking about is the built in delay Blizzard added for Battle.net before broadband was a thing so ping wouldnt be a HUGE advantage.They stopped doing it for SC2 but WC3 and BW suffer from such a delay.
Yes, it does have delay. Are you playing Dota2 regularly? Then you probably got used to the delay. Try playing HotS for a few weeks and then go back to Dota2. You will become aware of the forced delay
On March 26 2017 14:45 Morbidius wrote: Keybinds fuck yeah. I wonder how the people who were saying that ''pressing bad keybinds is a skill'' feel now that regular BW has it.
On March 28 2017 06:27 Spec1aLisT wrote: Can someone explain to me, if they will change the Latency completely and make it mandatory to everyone to play at Lan speeds? I Love the latency now(low latency). Because I play a game called Snipers and it needs it to be that way, otherwise the game mechanics are ruined.
There is no reason to think it won't have the same latency as WC3 and SC2; battle.net latency.
Blizzard has never patched LAN latency into SC with any of their patches, nor acknowledged it's importance for SC2. I get shivers about how everyone in 2017 playing DOTA2, LoL and SC2 is used to playing with 400ms delay.
Wc3 has the same built in delay. We're waiting on the day it gets fixed, too.
Well, with SC2 they kept the WC3 delay. Dota2 kept the Dota delay from WC3, to be more authentic. LoL has the same delay.
So most people got used to SC2 build-in delay, which would be completely unacceptable post-lan latency in SC BW. People got used to it. SC2 players stop caring. They either came from WC3, LoL, Dota2, and are used to it. When they came from LAN lat SC, they either quiit or stopped caring.
People used to build-in delay of SC2, WC3, Dota2, LoL, they say they don't feel it. They don't feel something is wrong.
But when you play HoN or SC, it is obvious something is wrong and it is unplayable 'until you get used to it'. Blizzard in beta even reduced the build-in delay for a while during SC2. Then they came out and said 'no one noticed it, as no one talked about it', and they promptly turned it back on.
There is 10,000 pages on balance talk on the SC2 page, but almost none on the build-in delay.
For me, there is no reason to 'get used to' a huge build-in delay. But I guess I am weird.
SC2 does not have a WC3-style delay. WC3 delay its literally 250ms when you're playing on Battle.net versus other forms of the game. Hence why even though WC3 has a built in ladder as opposed to BW, Battle.net is still unplayable with the delay and most serious people play on 3rd party platforms.
SC2 definitely does have a forced delay of about 200ms. Dota2 does too. HotS doesn't.
What? It absolutely does not. 200ms would be unplayable in today's modern environment. Dota 2 doesn't have any such delay either. What we're talking about is the built in delay Blizzard added for Battle.net before broadband was a thing so ping wouldnt be a HUGE advantage.They stopped doing it for SC2 but WC3 and BW suffer from such a delay.
Yes, it does have delay. Are you playing Dota2 regularly? Then you probably got used to the delay. Try playing HotS for a few weeks and then go back to Dota2. You will become aware of the forced delay
The reason why you might've thought you experienced a forced delay, by that I mean an artificial one to emulate the the WC3 experience in Dota, is because of UDP interpolation and lack of network prediction. The reason they haven't made a predictive systems is that they don't work that well for an ARTS/RTS unlike for an FPS. This can inherently make it feel delayed depending on the interpolation settings and servers, which Valve has improved during and since the beta. However this certainly is not an effort to emulate the experience of WC3 or anything among those lines nor on purpose per se, hence my initial reaction.
I guess you could technically call this artificial delay but that's often misunderstood. This system also has its advantages compared to other solutions.
Oh and not to mention other input issues and bugs which definitely were not on purpose.
On March 29 2017 08:24 Nixer wrote: The reason why you might've thought you experienced a forced delay, by that I mean an artificial one to emulate the the WC3 experience in Dota, is because of UDP interpolation and lack of network prediction. The reason they haven't made a predictive systems is that they don't work that well for an ARTS/RTS unlike for an FPS. This can inherently make it feel delayed depending on the interpolation settings and servers, which Valve has improved during and since the beta. However this certainly is not an effort to emulate the experience of WC3 or anything among those lines nor on purpose per se, hence my initial reaction.
I guess you could technically call this artificial delay but that's often misunderstood. This system also has its advantages compared to other solutions.
Oh and not to mention other input issues and bugs which definitely were not on purpose.
Not sure if I understand you correctly, but I think I have an idea what you mean.
Did you ever play Quake 3? When you would shoot your gun, you wouldn't immediately see the shot until the server received your data and confirmed it back to the client. So I guess that's what you're saying, right?
This might be true, sure. I'll do experiments with Dota2, SC2 and HotS. Maybe that will help to clear it up. I'm expecting SC2 to have an artificial delay of around 200ms. Let's see how the other games compare
If what you say is true, I'll expect a delay of around 100ms in Dota with my 40 ms ping.
BTW, the work Blizz today gave us Brood War USA-1 back, which is awesome
Also, I have four maps show up in my game list like this: + Show Spoiler +
I just did a fresh install and these four maps (Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breaker, Andromeda, Jade) are nowhere to be found in my maps folder. I can't imagine Blizzard using the iCCup versions of maps if they were to add them, so I feel like either 1. ShieldBattery is affecting this somehow (tec would know the answer to that) or 2. BW keeps your most recent maps in another location, even during a complete reinstall. In any event, I'd be curious to hear if anyone else sees anything like this
On March 29 2017 08:40 GoShox wrote: BTW, the work Blizz today gave us Brood War USA-1 back, which is awesome
Also, I have four maps show up in my game list like this: + Show Spoiler +
I just did a fresh install and these four maps (Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breaker, Andromeda, Jade) are nowhere to be found in my maps folder. I can't imagine Blizzard using the iCCup versions of maps if they were to add them, so I feel like either 1. ShieldBattery is affecting this somehow (tec would know the answer to that) or 2. BW keeps your most recent maps in another location, even during a complete reinstall. In any event, I'd be curious to hear if anyone else sees anything like this
Not sure how I feel about keybinds costumization.. one of the biggest parts about BW was that it was very hard mechanically. I hope they keep it that way....
On March 29 2017 09:51 Moonsalt wrote: Not sure how I feel about keybinds costumization.. one of the biggest parts about BW was that it was very hard mechanically. I hope they keep it that way....
Pylons and overlords give you an excuse to bind to 890