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On October 31 2017 09:40 micronesia wrote: To be clear, in my case, I was referring to hitting the gym to prevent runner's knee. I see the physical therapist tomorrow though so we'll see what rehab is in order.
I did a practice fitness test on an exercise bike today and, at 175 pounds, I burned 149 Calories in the 12 minute block... not sure how good that is because you need a special calculator to convert it lol
I don't think it'll be of much help, the stabilizing muscle of your knee should be perfectly straightened by running.
I think it's a bio-mechanics issue first and foremost, something off with geometry, worn cartilage, lack of stability in the foot that causes sudden deviation in your knee joints, etc.
My girlfriend also has bad knees (playing squash and doing squats very frequently brought the problem out in her). My approach here would be to accept it, and work around it by really slowly building up intensity to give your tendons, ligaments, and muscle as much time as possible to adjust, run with an extra thick sole to absorb that impact from running, and wear a knee wrap.
I don't know your physical therapist of course, but what I do know is what people want to hear. They want to be told that something in their body needs to be strengthened, or just have something they can fix naturally. So if he advises you with something like doing quadriceps strength exercises, don't go back to him. Unless you have some major issue like a severe nutrient inefficiency, these types of issues require intervention. Athletes get surgery for almost every little issue, it's because they knows regardless of how they try to compensate for it, it becomes a liability and hindrance.
Anyway, the reason why I have such a strong opinions on this because I've been misled in the past about this stuff, and just thought I'd share what I know. Many things make me very angry in medicine, but there's little worse than doctors giving advice to patients about what kind of strength exercises they should do, you'll get better results in youtube comments. They learn next to nothing about them in med school, and the only reason they say it is because it makes people happy that they have something to do to improve their situation. Little do they know that universal healthcare doesn't find muscular issues serious enough to be worth the time and money.
I don't have much experience with physical therapists, but I know several doctors and chiropractors, and I also know several people with physical issues quite closely. There's just many conflicts of interests here, and the advice can be bad... Hopefully your guy is down to earth and someone you can really trust, best of luck!
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During strenuous exercise, we're about 25% efficient. So heavy exercise, is about 13 calories / minute, or convert to watts, 900W of heat dissipated, and of that around 225W of mechanical motion.
149 calories in 12 minutes is 12.42 calories per minute, so it would suggest you were working quite hard. I think a 135lb person and 185lb person will burn similar calories on an exercise bike at constant power output (not at constant speed though). There's too many factors though to read anything meaningful, since the +/- error is like 50% not knowing things like how the machine measures/calculates power, your bodies efficiency, your body composition, inertia of your legs/length of crank arms, etc.
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United States24343 Posts
On October 31 2017 10:12 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 09:40 micronesia wrote: To be clear, in my case, I was referring to hitting the gym to prevent runner's knee. I see the physical therapist tomorrow though so we'll see what rehab is in order.
I did a practice fitness test on an exercise bike today and, at 175 pounds, I burned 149 Calories in the 12 minute block... not sure how good that is because you need a special calculator to convert it lol I don't think it'll be of much help, the stabilizing muscle of your knee should be perfectly straightened by running. I think it's a bio-mechanics issue first and foremost, something off with geometry, worn cartilage, lack of stability in the foot that causes sudden deviation in your knee joints, etc. My girlfriend also has bad knees (playing squash and doing squats very frequently brought the problem out in her). My approach here would be to accept it, and work around it by really slowly building up intensity to give your tendons, ligaments, and muscle as much time as possible to adjust, run with an extra thick sole to absorb that impact from running, and wear a knee wrap. I don't know your physical therapist of course, but what I do know is what people want to hear. They want to be told that something in their body needs to be strengthened, or just have something they can fix naturally. So if he advises you with something like doing quadriceps strength exercises, don't go back to him. Unless you have some major issue like a severe nutrient inefficiency, these types of issues require intervention. Athletes get surgery for almost every little issue, it's because they knows regardless of how they try to compensate for it, it becomes a liability and hindrance. Anyway, the reason why I have such a strong opinions on this because I've been misled in the past about this stuff, and just thought I'd share what I know. Many things make me very angry in medicine, but there's little worse than doctors giving advice to patients about what kind of strength exercises they should do, you'll get better results in youtube comments. They learn next to nothing about them in med school, and the only reason they say it is because it makes people happy that they have something to do to improve their situation. Little do they know that universal healthcare doesn't find muscular issues serious enough to be worth the time and money. I don't have much experience with physical therapists, but I know several doctors and chiropractors, and I also know several people with physical issues quite closely. There's just many conflicts of interests here, and the advice can be bad... Hopefully your guy is down to earth and someone you can really trust, best of luck! A few things to keep in mind (most of which you had no way of knowing):
- I have had a problem with my left hip recently as well, where running seemed to make it worse. A physical therapist (at a different location) determined that there were imbalances due to the glutes and other muscles being underdeveloped. The solution was to isolate and strengthen the glutes, which has helped.
- As a result of the hip problem, I went, twice, to a running clinic where they instrument your running, videotape it, and carefully review it with you. At the second visit, my running and shoes were both considered to be good, so it's unlikely my running form is poor and causing the problem.
- From the research I've done, there are several different possible causes of runner's knee, and mine is potentially different than others you are aware of.
- I have been very slowly building up my running for months (using L_master's program actually). At no point have I pushed myself too hard.
- I am already using light stability shoes based on the evaluation at the running clinic
- "They want to be told that something in their body needs to be strengthened, or just have something they can fix naturally. So if he advises you with something like doing quadriceps strength exercises, don't go back to him." This doesn't really explain why strengthening exercises are necessarily the wrong response. Some of the literature I've reviewed on this topic have said the problem can (but not necessarily) be caused by weak quads, which is very plausible considering I've done zero lower body strengthening exercises in a long time (I should start doing those either way to be honest).
- I am going to see (for the first time) the physical therapist who visits the clinic where I work once a week ((s)he is from Quantico). If that doesn't work out for whatever reason, it's possible for me to see someone else but a huge pain in the ass in that I need to take off like half a day of work (limited to military office hours) so I'm hoping to avoid that.
I will keep you apprised of what I'm working on after my appointment, if you wish.
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Thanks for the detailed response.
If you are running, you quadriceps are getting fatigued to the point they need to be to get stronger and keep up with your running intensity was my argument. If there's a bio-mechanical problem, then it is true that potentially spending 50% of your time strengthening your quads and then the other 50% running (the reason why you strengthened your quads) is possible. The issue that you run into is prior to your strengthening exercises, your body was at equilibrium with muscle gain/muscle loss. So the moment you stop these strengthening exercises your body will go back to where it was. At that point finding an artificial aid makes more sense in my opinion.
My shoulder got better when I was doing exercises with resistance bands, but after I stopped (because spending 1 hour a week for this, no thanks), it got back to where it was. And now if I try to lift an unliftable object explosively with all my might, I will tear my shoulder and have pain in it for at least a week.
If I could put it on a 10 point scale, and say that once the difference between running is 3 or more, you'll have knee pain. Let's say at first your running is a 6 and your knee is a 3. You do this strengthening exercise, and now it allows you to push harder, so your running becomes an 8 and your knee becomes a 6 due to this. Now you stop doing this exercise, and your running stays at 8, but your knee goes back to 4 (a little higher since it has more stresses and development due to running more). But now this difference is bigger than it was before, and you'll have more pain, which will either make your injury worse, or will just bring you down to where you were before.
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United States24343 Posts
I'll make sure to have a discussion about what the plan is for AFTER the knee pain goes away, and not just focus on the quick fix, which I think is a fair point.
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You do seem like a practical, methodical and careful person (the best type of people to learn from), I'm curious what you'll come up with eventually, I can only imagine it's demoralizing to go through.
Apologies for ranting more than helping.
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you guys who run 30-50mpw, how do you do it? and how long it took for you to get to that mileage i checked back my logs and i think the week i ran the most was 32km which is only 20 miles lol
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On December 04 2017 23:18 sekishusai wrote: you guys who run 30-50mpw, how do you do it? and how long it took for you to get to that mileage i checked back my logs and i think the week i ran the most was 32km which is only 20 miles lol
The classic rule of thumb is to increase mileage by 10 percent per week. Going from 20 mpw to 30 would look like this:
Week 1: 20 Week 2: 22 Week 3: 24 Week 4: 26.4 Week 5: 29 Week 6: 32
A few caveats:
Always, always, always listen to your body. If something feels painful or weird and gets worse with use, play it safe. Hoping it will go away on its own is a fool's injury prevention strategy.
Keep in mind that more shorter runs is easier on your body than fewer longer runs. That is, if you're running 30 miles a week, making your long run 20 miles is probably not a great idea.
Give yourself the occasional "recovery" week where you run less. I like to run less every fourth week to recover and really focus on workouts.
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8716 Posts
Saw this got bumped and realized I forgot to check in with my latest race result. I ran CIM, a marathon in Sacramento, CA, that was also hosting the US national marathon championships (although ppl that can compete internationally like Rupp don't show up to this, everyone else does). But I didn't run the marathon -- they've got a 4 segment marathon relay going on too and my wife and I did it, taking 2 segments each. I did the first 2 which were 13.5 miles, but I only ran to the half marathon timing mat and then jogged the rest. I was really hoping to be able to start with the elites, find a nice pack aiming for sub 2:20, and use them to pace me to a sub 70 half. But I didn't get a great start at the line and both my shoes came untied within the first mile. I ended up running the whole thing by myself after stopping to tie my shoes, although I had a nice steady stream of people or packs to chase, so it wasn't that bad.
I paused my watch when I tied my shoes and my watch time was 1:10:22. Chip time was 1:10:54. Either way, a nice solid 1:10 to significantly improve my PR. Not quite the time I was hoping for at the beginning of the year, but training and weight loss didn't happen like I hoped, so I'm pretty happy anyway.
Next up is probably a half marathon in San Francisco on February 4 and then the Cherry Blossom 10 miler in Washington DC on April 8. I'd like to finally run sub-70 in that half and I'd like to do a big taper and have the race of my life at Cherry Blossom. But I gotta keep my head down and grind this training and watch my diet for now.
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On October 31 2017 10:26 FiWiFaKi wrote: During strenuous exercise, we're about 25% efficient. So heavy exercise, is about 13 calories / minute, or convert to watts, 900W of heat dissipated, and of that around 225W of mechanical motion.
Yep. Between about 21%-25% encompasses almost everybody for cycling. Running variance can be greater, due to efficiency, but that's based on pace. If we used power I'd expect you'd see a similar range to cycling.
On October 31 2017 10:26 FiWiFaKi wrote: 149 calories in 12 minutes is 12.42 calories per minute, so it would suggest you were working quite hard.
Cycling wise, this is about 210w.
This depends on who you are and where your fitness is. For a 75kg rider at the world tour level, this would be a very easy recovery pace. I've seen guys like Gesink or DeGendt riding around at like 110bpm at 210w.
This pace for me is endurance, but it's similar to going out for an easy run at 5k pace + 2:00 per mile or so.
For a small guy or girl, or less trained person this pace could be incredibly difficult even for a minute or two.
On October 31 2017 10:26 FiWiFaKi wrote: I think a 135lb person and 185lb person will burn similar calories on an exercise bike at constant power output (not at constant speed though). There's too many factors though to read anything meaningful, since the +/- error is like 50% not knowing things like how the machine measures/calculates power, your bodies efficiency, your body composition, inertia of your legs/length of crank arms, etc.
Yes, it's correct that a 135lb and 185 lb person will burn similar calories at a constant power output. In fact, that's true for anyone; because power (times the efficiency factor) IS the determinant of calories burned. That equation being:
Kcal = (((Avg Power (W) x Duration (s)) / 4.18 ) / Efficiency Factor (.2-.25) / 1000)
Using 200w for 1 hour we get: 172kJ/(0.2 to 0.25) = 860 to 690 kcal.
That equations holds irrespective of weight. It also holds irrespective of body composition, intertia, leg proprotions, cranks, etc. If you know power, and you know efficiency you know exactly how many calories are expended. Of the things you listed body composition, intertia of legs, crank length, all do not matter whatsoever when it comes to calculating power or efficiency. Power only requires knowing torque (or force in the case of pedal based system) at either the crank or hub, and your cadence.
How the machine calculates/measures power doesn't matter...well provided it's legitimately calculating power. Unfortunately, as you emphasized, most bikes just infer it, very poorly...usually meaning you can't believe anything an exercise bike spits out. Not too useful to know you burned somewhere between 400 and 1000kcal
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On December 10 2017 03:50 NonY wrote: Saw this got bumped and realized I forgot to check in with my latest race result. I ran CIM, a marathon in Sacramento, CA, that was also hosting the US national marathon championships (although ppl that can compete internationally like Rupp don't show up to this, everyone else does). But I didn't run the marathon -- they've got a 4 segment marathon relay going on too and my wife and I did it, taking 2 segments each. I did the first 2 which were 13.5 miles, but I only ran to the half marathon timing mat and then jogged the rest. I was really hoping to be able to start with the elites, find a nice pack aiming for sub 2:20, and use them to pace me to a sub 70 half. But I didn't get a great start at the line and both my shoes came untied within the first mile. I ended up running the whole thing by myself after stopping to tie my shoes, although I had a nice steady stream of people or packs to chase, so it wasn't that bad.
I paused my watch when I tied my shoes and my watch time was 1:10:22. Chip time was 1:10:54. Either way, a nice solid 1:10 to significantly improve my PR. Not quite the time I was hoping for at the beginning of the year, but training and weight loss didn't happen like I hoped, so I'm pretty happy anyway.
Next up is probably a half marathon in San Francisco on February 4 and then the Cherry Blossom 10 miler in Washington DC on April 8. I'd like to finally run sub-70 in that half and I'd like to do a big taper and have the race of my life at Cherry Blossom. But I gotta keep my head down and grind this training and watch my diet for now.
Good shit. Aside from the shoes. That sucks having to worry about that in a race.
Scorching times and making consistent progress. IIrc CIM isn't an especially easy course either. Don't know about Cherry Blosom, but if it's flat you'll certainly have a great shot at it. If you've got some weight you need to lose, and weren't consistent with training it goes without saying you'll easily go sub 1:10 if you can avoid those pitfalls. Hell, even a weight loss of 2lbs moves you into mid 69s.
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On December 10 2017 03:30 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2017 23:18 sekishusai wrote: you guys who run 30-50mpw, how do you do it? and how long it took for you to get to that mileage i checked back my logs and i think the week i ran the most was 32km which is only 20 miles lol The classic rule of thumb is to increase mileage by 10 percent per week. Going from 20 mpw to 30 would look like this: Week 1: 20 Week 2: 22 Week 3: 24 Week 4: 26.4 Week 5: 29 Week 6: 32 A few caveats: Always, always, always listen to your body. If something feels painful or weird and gets worse with use, play it safe. Hoping it will go away on its own is a fool's injury prevention strategy. Keep in mind that more shorter runs is easier on your body than fewer longer runs. That is, if you're running 30 miles a week, making your long run 20 miles is probably not a great idea. Give yourself the occasional "recovery" week where you run less. I like to run less every fourth week to recover and really focus on workouts.
I'll admit, I think the 10% rule is silly. It's too conservative imo increasing a couple miles per week, for most under 30 something people. If you're 50 and banged up that's different, but shouldn't be much of TL audience. Most people can add a run a week/5 miles a week or so.
Main thing is don't ramp intensity while doing so. This should be done during a base phase where you're running mostly endurance/tempo/threshold miles and maybe some short sprint stuff with huge recoveries. If you try to add 5mpw when you're doing 3 solid workouts and a long run each week, probably going to hate life and get injured.
Absolutely to everything Bonham said. I like using 20-30% of my weekly volume as long run length depending on frequency. So if you're doing 30 miles that's obviously a long run of 6-9 miles. Longer side of that if frequency is lower, and higher side of that if frequency is higher. This also works good in that if you're only running 3 times a week it doesn't really make sense to have a long run. Every run is going to be "long ish" for your mileage at that point.
Want to reiterate the recovery week thing. If you were trying to build an 8 week block might look like:
25, 30, 35, 20, 30, 35, 40, 25, 35, 40, 45, 20
Those recovery week runs should be EXTREMELY easy, at least for the first one or two. Recovery is when the real magic happens. The training primes the body and tells it "hey we need to get faster", but that actual getting faster happens during your recovery time.
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Thanks Bonham and Master, that was great. How often do you run a week? I'm used to running 3 times only but I guess in order to increase mileage I should also run more often,
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On December 10 2017 09:51 sekishusai wrote: Thanks Bonham and Master, that was great. How often do you run a week? I'm used to running 3 times only but I guess in order to increase mileage I should also run more often,
It would depend on your goals. Presumably, if you're looking for a mileage increase it's because you want to run faster, or have a long event coming up.
I personally like to add frequency first, working up to 5 or 6 days of training, then start adding the miles to the days. Most super serious runners are training either 6 or 7 days a week. For those doing 7, that extra day is always a VERY easy (think like 5k pace per mile + 3:00-4:00 min/mile). Some runners just feel better if they always do at least a little running, others prefer a day off.
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Okay TY, I'll start by adding a 4th day of running, then 5th, then maybe a 6th day. I want to increase mileage because I want to get a routine going again and also want to run faster. My PRs are pretty bad compared to the avg runner imo 5km 22:50 and 10km 54:30 or something. I have no "time" goals as of right now although sub20 5k is something that I'd like very much to do.
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What's up L_Master? What have I missed the past few years?
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On December 13 2017 13:31 AirbladeOrange wrote: What's up L_Master? What have I missed the past few years?
Long time no see!
I bike more than anything these days, but also a bit of lifting here recently since I'm super busy with school + work. Bonham was killing it, had a really long injury, and is no working back into it. NonY just crushed a half and has had some pretty steady progession over the past year+, prime candidate to go sub 1:10 half in 2018.
Yang isn't posting as much but he definitely is still doing pretty damn good at triathlon, couple of HIM top tens. Luckyfool still training as well, but not posting as much. Just ran a pretty solid marathon a month or so ago.
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On December 13 2017 13:57 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 13:31 AirbladeOrange wrote: What's up L_Master? What have I missed the past few years? NonY just crushed a half and has had some pretty steady progression over the past year+, prime candidate to go sub 1:10 half in 2018.
I'll say he has! Shoutouts to my man NonY for his sweet run at CIM. Can't wait to see what you get up to in 2018!
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Ugh. Getting back into shape is never fun. It's steady progress but still mentally sucks when you're riding at speeds/wattages that you remember as pretty comfortable cruising zones and now they are challenging for 10-20' segments.
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On December 17 2017 07:55 L_Master wrote: Getting back into shape is never fun. It's steady progress but still mentally sucks when you're riding at speeds/wattages that you remember as pretty comfortable cruising zones and now they are challenging for 10-20' segments.
Blarg, tell me about it. It can be pretty demoralizing.
Actually, I just had an idea: I'm going to switch my watch from min/km to min/mile while I'm getting back into shape here. You can't be depressed if you don't know how slow you are!
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