Larva has been playing a variation against toss and terran I have not seen before.
v Protoss
9 - Gas Trick 10 - Overlord 10 - Hatchery 11 - pool 13 - gas 100% Spawning Pool - 2-6 lings
v T
Things of note, Zerg larva are spent fluidly. Hatchery comes down about 75 minerals earlier, Pool at the same time as 12 Hatch/ 11 Pool. Compared to the 10 Hatch before pool, Hatch is 100 minerals slower, but there is no long wait to build drones, economy seems dramatically healthier in trade.
I have seen it mostly against Terran, so perhaps the goal is earlier expansion creep without sacrificing economy to prevent bunker rushes.
Or earlier 3rd Hatch and later gas v T.
9 - Gas Trick 10 - Overlord 10 - Hatchery 11 - pool 13 - Hatchery 12 - gas 100% Spawning Pool - 2-6 lings
I like how you have broken down the build. It is important to note that Larva's Larvae are actually being spent "fluidly" as you put it. So none are being wasted. But with that being said, when he is using those Larvae is still very relevant.
The 10 Hatch is cute, but I do not think it is as efficient as a normal 12 Hatch economically speaking. You are shifting drone production to a later point in the game, and your income will suffer ever so slightly for it. You are not producing enough Drones quickly enough to spare one to scout, either. Which is a massive weakness, especially on large maps, and against Terran. I believe the main strength of the build (and hence why Larva is opting for it) is that the timing of your expansion Hatchery is a little earlier (duh). Which allows for an earlier Sunken, and more spread-out creep. This enables you to deflect early harass better, such as Vulture harass from the "1-1-1" Terran build.
The 10 Pool is very interesting to me. Let's keep in mind that people have been using this open for many years. Back in the day, a Zerg player from Taiwan called Sen, was really showing it's strength versus Terran. He was part of ToT I think? Anyway, he was doing 10 Pool into 3 Hatch Muta in ZvT for a while. It really left an impression on me.
I think the 10 Pool is a very strong open in both ZvT and ZvP, and it can be stronger than Over Pool on 3 player maps due to a scouting drone not being necessary. Those early Zerglings will give you all the scouting information you need, you assume total map control immediately, and being able to deny your opponent scouting information is just so fucking sweet as Zerg. Then on top of that, your Hatchery isn't being delayed by that much, compared to other Pool first opens. Your economy will suffer a bit compared to 12 Pool or even Over Pool, obviously. But the point is to abuse early Zergling pressure to the maximum.
I have won so many games versus Terran over the years by abusing 10 Pool lol. I usually build 8 Zerglings for the rush, and if they scout it and manage to defend, I simply prevent them from scouting. I go into 2 Hatch Lurker or Mutalisk after that usually, but you can do whatever variation you want.
I would really like a summary of below builds that can transition into 3 hath:
9 pool speed 10 pool over pool 12 pool 9 hath 10 hath 12 hath 11 pool 12 hath 12 pool 12 hath 12 pool 3 hath 1st
E.g you need to make ling speed / 12 ling (6 lings initially with pool first builds and 4 lings initially with hath pool builds) and have to make 9 muta when spire finishes, 3 hatheries. Comparison on timing of 6-12 zerglings, 9 mutas and how many drones you have when you order mutas. Anyone willing to do? :D
Same could be done on 2 hath build obviously, and there you should have 6 lings with speed and you need to order 6 mutas when spire finishes.
On February 13 2018 15:39 GunSlinger wrote: I like how you have broken down the build. It is important to note that Larva's Larvae are actually being spent "fluidly" as you put it. So none are being wasted. But with that being said, when he is using those Larvae is still very relevant.
The 10 Hatch is cute, but I do not think it is as efficient as a normal 12 Hatch economically speaking. You are shifting drone production to a later point in the game, and your income will suffer ever so slightly for it. You are not producing enough Drones quickly enough to spare one to scout, either. Which is a massive weakness, especially on large maps, and against Terran. I believe the main strength of the build (and hence why Larva is opting for it) is that the timing of your expansion Hatchery is a little earlier (duh). Which allows for an earlier Sunken, and more spread-out creep. This enables you to deflect early harass better, such as Vulture harass from the "1-1-1" Terran build.
The 10 Pool is very interesting to me. Let's keep in mind that people have been using this open for many years. Back in the day, a Zerg player from Taiwan called Sen, was really showing it's strength versus Terran. He was part of ToT I think? Anyway, he was doing 10 Pool into 3 Hatch Muta in ZvT for a while. It really left an impression on me.
I think the 10 Pool is a very strong open in both ZvT and ZvP, and it can be stronger than Over Pool on 3 player maps due to a scouting drone not being necessary. Those early Zerglings will give you all the scouting information you need, you assume total map control immediately, and being able to deny your opponent scouting information is just so fucking sweet as Zerg. Then on top of that, your Hatchery isn't being delayed by that much, compared to other Pool first opens. Your economy will suffer a bit compared to 12 Pool or even Over Pool, obviously. But the point is to abuse early Zergling pressure to the maximum.
I have won so many games versus Terran over the years by abusing 10 Pool lol. I usually build 8 Zerglings for the rush, and if they scout it and manage to defend, I simply prevent them from scouting. I go into 2 Hatch Lurker or Mutalisk after that usually, but you can do whatever variation you want.
Thanks for the insight. I am by no means the best person to start a build or strategy discussion, but seemed likely no one else would.
i remember testing this a while back iirc pool comes a few seconds later, hatch finishes about 10~15s faster you end up with -25ish minerals and +1 larva by the time 12hatch would've finished
On February 15 2018 15:01 Dead9 wrote: i remember testing this a while back iirc pool comes a few seconds later, hatch finishes about 10~15s faster you end up with -25ish minerals and +1 larva by the time 12hatch would've finished
Wait, really? Thats it?? -25 is basically nothing...depending on how much more effective over 10 hatch is at defending bbs/early rine bs/vultures etc, why even go 12 hatch ever again? +25 minerals for the risk doesnt seem worth it...
On February 15 2018 15:01 Dead9 wrote: i remember testing this a while back iirc pool comes a few seconds later, hatch finishes about 10~15s faster you end up with -25ish minerals and +1 larva by the time 12hatch would've finished
Wait, really? Thats it?? -25 is basically nothing...depending on how much more effective over 10 hatch is at defending bbs/early rine bs/vultures etc, why even go 12 hatch ever again? +25 minerals for the risk doesnt seem worth it...
It would be better to quantify it in terms of timing at slightly later points in the game .. like lair timing, muta timing, etc. The very small differences early game can compound exponentially as a game progresses, and make or break certain timing attacks/defenses.
But sometimes the difference isn't enough by itself to affect any major timings, or the risk-reward ratio is too much otherwise. I don't know what the case would be here, but itd be very interesting to see someone break it down in comparison to all the common timings, compared to the standard builds
On February 15 2018 15:01 Dead9 wrote: i remember testing this a while back iirc pool comes a few seconds later, hatch finishes about 10~15s faster you end up with -25ish minerals and +1 larva by the time 12hatch would've finished
Wait, really? Thats it?? -25 is basically nothing...depending on how much more effective over 10 hatch is at defending bbs/early rine bs/vultures etc, why even go 12 hatch ever again? +25 minerals for the risk doesnt seem worth it...
the 25 minerals slow down your third hatch and gas so the 1 larva advantage disappears to a certain point (it's not a full larva either AFAIK)
I'm going to test it myself. I'm doing 12h 12p 13h 12g vs. 10o 10h 11p 13h 12g
EDIT: it's only 7 seconds earlier second hatchery, and 8 seconds delay on third hatchery/gas so when the third hatch is finished for the 12 hatching playing it's a wash
you actually can't spend that larva right away either because you are mineral blocked, while the 12 hatch player is actually larva blocked
it's about 51 minerals behind the 12 hatch player at 3 minute mark
if you're getting 3 hatch muta you will actually have one more larva since you won't get larva blocked, you can go up to 34/35 with 10 over 10 hatch but something like 4 seconds later
the 12 hatch player has to wait at 33/35 for his spire to finish because it finishes faster so he doesn't get to spend his larva
Here's a build that actually offers a more substantial larva advantage:
9 hatch 9 overlord gas trick 11 pool 13 hatch 12 gas
you float 3 larvae for 7 seconds, but you get your hatchery done by something ridiculous like 26 seconds earlier, so a whole larva cycle earlier, then your third hatch goes down like 10 seconds later, but you still have 10 seconds of larva time advantage that persists
pool is done 3 seconds later
by 3 minutes, you're 77 minerals down
overall, you trade 1 larva for ~6 seconds later 9th muta this is because 12h 12p 13h 12g floats one larva at 33 supply waiting for the spire to finish and has to still wait a few seconds to get 900 gas (if you get zergling speed before second gas)
with the 9h build you have 2 more supply 7 seconds later (so 1.5 larva more) when you start your 9th muta (you can go up to 35/35 and still have enough larva for 9 muta)
In both of the linked videos larva transitions into 2 hatch lair. Is that a coincidence or does this opening specifically benefit 2 hatch play? (i.e. extra larvae to partially offset the lack of a 3rd hatch). I can't really tell if this choice was planned from the start or reactionary.
Well, it should be obvious that the key to any 10 Hatch variation is "spending your larvae fluidly", of it is just a build that skimps on both economy and aggression, whereas a 10 Hatch done right gives you both the option of either some strong surprise early aggression, like a 12 ling rush, or a mid to long term economic advantage due to more available Larvae. A 3rd Hatch will usually be delayed due to the weaker early economy, so that at least part of the Larva advantage gets lost again that way, though. I think that is mostly the reason why 10 Hatch cannot really be considered a good economic build. One main advantage I personally like about 10 Hatch builds in ZvP is that in many cases you can get the Hatch down before it is scouted/can be denied by a Probe/Pylon (which will give you the economic advantage of a Hatch first build, compared to the more standard Overpool).
I dislike 10 hatch in ZvP, the timing of the first zealot means you want an earlier pool. I like EffOrt's 11 hatch/10 pool build. It has a slight larva block, but the earlier hatchery mitigates this and you end up even.