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This is just a shot in the dark but because of Serrals victory in GSL vs The World I just wondered: We heard from many progamers and other guys in the scene that talent is often kind of overrated and practice is the most important thing to get really good at Starcraft. But Serral being so much better than any other foreigner seems to kind of contradict this maxim.
We know that the player base in South Korea is much bigger than anywhere else. So the likelihood that great players rise from there is just a logical consequence. So could it be that we just almost never had such talented players in foreigner land like we always had a handful (or two) in South Korea? This is nothing new and the obvious counter argument would be that all foreign players combined should be as much as korean players and therefore there should be the same probability of some great talents to touch the game. So the main factors for South Koreas success must ly in their superior infrastructure and training regimen plus the density of so many players in such a small region which boosts competition, right?
But we know from the region lock that tough competition is not always the best thing to grow new talent. The region lock helped foreign talents to flourish and some new talents arised. The big competition hindered the somewhat talented players to be successful and become better while achieving that. How many of those somewhat talented players do we see in South Korea? The GSL Ro32 or former upper half of code A material? More of course but not that much more. One would assume that with the big South Korean player base (which is probably far more intrigued to compete than the foreign player base because it's probably impossible in South Korea to not get in touch with the esport scene as a starcraft player while in foreigner lands the "I just play the campaign and everything else is nonextistent for me"-attitude is a quite common thing) there would be more of them.
But the difference is: as a somewhat talented player somewhere in the nonkorean regions you will probably get some success because there are only very few players as good as you from your region. It's somewhat realistic to not get stomped everytime you get on a slightly bigger stage. You can take one step after another. And somewhere at the top you might be confronted with an unclimbable hurdle - but probably not until the Ro4 of a big tournament. Meanwhile in South Korea you'll already get stomped in the qualifiers for the only relevant tournament there is: GSL. How many of those somewhat talented players will be deterred from persevering until they break the wall because of the unbelievable superior 8 to 16 talents on the top of the SC2-olymp? Only the really stubborn guys who'll end up as those somewhat talented players and the real great talents will make it through this wall.
This would mean that the trying playerbase had to be much bigger than the 32 to 50 actual and almost GSL-players we have in South Korea seems to indicate. If we say that we have 10 talents of the calibre of Serral or almost Serral (considering ups and downs) in South Korea this would mean that we have to assume a seriously trying playerbase 10 times bigger in South Korea than in the rest of the world - IF talent is a bigger factor than we assumed so far, that is.
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Who says that Serral doesn't practice a lot and is just talented? As far as I can tell, him being at the top of ladder proves he plays a lot and consistently in Europe. Moreover, GSL used to have Code A and Code S for that very basis of being bigger than '32 to 50' actual GSL players.
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Talent was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Practice is only relevant when two equally talented players face each other
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The reason koreans are generally is due to practice, the playerbase of KR pros vs foreign pros are probably similar in number and probably have a similar number of talents.
Of course when looking at any individual player, talent may come into play. Some people are obviously better at things than others. But it's impossible to know what players actually try harder than others.
Examples like Life and Taeja, even Maru before this year, are legendary players known for not practicing that much. Hell Taeja was playing Overwatch almost full time when he knocked out Zest (the current champ) out of the GSL. You see examples in other esports of players who don't seem to try that hard yet are more successful than most.
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On August 06 2018 07:23 Fango wrote: The reason koreans are generally is due to practice, the playerbase of KR pros vs foreign pros are probably similar in number and probably have a similar number of talents.
Of course when looking at any individual player, talent may come into play. Some people are obviously better at things than others. But it's impossible to know what players actually try harder than others.
Examples like Life and Taeja, even Maru before this year, are legendary players known for not practicing that much. Hell Taeja was playing Overwatch almost full time when he knocked out Zest (the current champ) out of the GSL. You see examples in other esports of players who don't seem to try that hard yet are more successful than most.
Of course without practice nobody gets anywhere. But I highly doubt that Serral is the first foreigner who went full tryhard mode and practiced more than anybody else. Also the big number of such great talents in Korea in comparison to the nonkorean scene makes me wonder if the "playerbase" isn't took into consideration too undifferentiated. Or in other words: Could it be that the relevant playerbase is much bigger in South Korea than in the combined nonkorean regions?
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Keep in mind Serral has been playing for years. The game may have a high skill ceiling, but most players plataeu in terms of skill after a while. If foreigners started tryharding as much as koreans (like Serral clearly does), then given a couple years, it's likely for them to reach similar skill.
Also, a notable point is that sc2 has had countless korean pros given the opportunity for full time practice (tryhard mode). And only the best 1/4 or 1/5 are still playing. At this stage in korean sc2, only the best are still around.
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FlaSh also mentioned in his interviews long ago that he did a lot of mental practice, going through the decision trees that he would follow in his games. This sort of practice doesn't need practice partners and can be done just from VODs.
Of course, you can't become GM by only watching VODs, but regular practice complemented by this can make up somewhat for a practice partner deficiency. Serral's extremely crisp decision making could be a reflection of having thought through these sorts of scenarios countless times mentally already
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From watching Serrals games and reading his interviews I think he trains smarter than other people. He doesnt mass games but perfects individual skills like scouting properly every game or doing his multiprong attacks. Like he said he thinks about the game and what a certain action does to his opponent. When attacking his main goal seems to be to tax the opponent's attention. Good opponents like Stats have unit in the correct location but they cant micro everywhere at once and cant fall back like Serral's attacking forces because this usually means losing a base. Same with his counterattacks, either he forces his opponent to micro their army and then sends in the lings or he sends the lings in first to get a seconds without the opponent's attention on the army.
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never have i really believed in what talent stands for. talent describes special aptitude right? well instead, i believe that due to many different conditions, there's a difference in people for how quickly they pick up and learn something. if a skill or activity is to their liking, they're more likely to stick with it. that's about as far as that belief goes. as it is, that is the biggest outlying difference between people competing with one another passively. you could go into the general psyche of a player who does poorly across all games, and interview another player who does well instead. there will be huge differences in the way they speak about the game and treat their own progress while it is all relevant to winning over stronger opponents.
even if they make the same objective mental notes, one player does something about it, and the other does not. one player remembers the details, another would need to be constantly reminded somehow. these differences compound quickly.
in some ways there is a lot of trial and error that can be ignored entirely if you have the existing mentality to prevail through failure. if someone is satisfied with playing poorly in some aspect, you can be sure it affects the rest of their play--and in vice versa if a player learns to hate their play and constantly works towards better game states, they will almost always stress over the little details that compound into a larger difference in a game like this; even if their first ideas don't directly apply, a positive practice regimen (relatively) has already been set. in my opinion, this also has nothing to do with the idea of talent and more to do with personality and the willingness to treat a game seriously.
there's also open-mindedness and the honesty of the practice. when you are your only witness, do you really and truly practice to the best of your ability? do you treat each game with 100% of your capacity and what you understand as the ideal level of play? if you do not place the pressure on yourself and upgrade your play constantly and be good with your time, you end up wasting a lot of it. by bettering your current capacity to play 'well' but in a way that is constant and progressive, you are nearly guaranteed to be able to catch up quickly.
watching a lot of foreigners play, there are a lot of lazy portions of a game that serral cuts out, almost entirely. that is why he is more complete and is invariably better.
reynor focuses on reacting, TLO focuses on using units well and going against the norm, and serral focuses on closing out a game with his learned tools. in each of those examples there are outlying weaknesses--respectively that may be bleeding units due to movement issues, and losing focus on other regions of the map which then lowers the impact of your moves. but serral has learned to take strategies and tactics to apply peak performance to each task required of him. even if he makes mistakes, he can better apply a fix which would also require minimal change. i think the mentality is: there isn't a hole in your play that your hands and your attentiveness can't be ready for. his games are shorter on average and that tends to indicate that there are fewer mistakes and many more important cogs turning at the same time. if your opponent is ready for you at all turns, you are already lagging behind in everything you do, even if winning is possible. there needs to be something you can be ahead in some meaningful and actionable way.
so why are there many more south korean professionals than everywhere else? well there's an answer that is quite simple and could remain simple for as long as the game retains a scene. what motivation is there to devote yourself and play the game to that level? you could ask this in more broad sense to catch other demographics, like the female playerbase in all of competitive gaming. if you have to work much harder and play with a disadvantage to get adequate practice (high ping), does that not also erode your motivation over time? the koreans take the game more seriously on average... and on an objective level, being serious means winning against the contemporary best-of-the-best. you could say they're more talented, but none of that is measurable in the first place. you can not measure the impact of somebody else's practice. you really can only look at yourself and conjure up the best version/revision at all times.
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Talent IMO is a huge factor
Tesla once said : If he [Thomas Edison] had a needle to find in a haystack, he would not stop to reason where it was most likely to be, but would proceed at once with the feverish diligence of a bee, to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. … Just a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety percent of his labor.
Not saying the less talented don't try to come up with theories and reasonings but a more talented man would have done it sooner and be better in this aspect.
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The amount of practise Koreans do is probably more harmful than helpful if anything. There's only so much time you can do something with full concentration and you'll need to get enough rest afterwards. Practising through the night won't help you get any better.
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There is no substitute for hard work. Talent on top of hard work is, for me, better than mere talent. I think one of recent articles about generalising a player's skill and abilities in SC2 relates to this a great deal. We should never undermine a player's work ethic and label it as mere talent.
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On August 06 2018 07:01 Charoisaur wrote: Talent was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Practice is only relevant when two equally talented players face each other
Practice was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Talent is only relevant when two equally practiced players face each other
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i play ~10 games a week at most. even if i'd be as talented as one of the pros (i'm not) i will loose to anybody that played > 30000 games.
talent makes the practice more efficient, but without practice no talent will help you
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United States32496 Posts
I think besides a few "talent LITERALLY doesn't exist" folks, most ppl acknowledge natural talent is pretty important
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On August 06 2018 15:02 uummpaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 07:01 Charoisaur wrote: Talent was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Practice is only relevant when two equally talented players face each other Practice was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Talent is only relevant when two equally practiced players face each other ... i play ~10 games a week at most. even if i'd be as talented as one of the pros (i'm not) i will loose to anybody that played > 30000 games. talent makes the practice more efficient, but without practice no talent will help you I'm pretty sure there are some players who play 10 games a week who would just slap other players with 30k+ games. If you don't have the talent you will never reach pro level no matter how hard you practice. There are a lot of master / low GM playres who play more than most pros but aren't anywhere as good. Practice is irrelevant when the gap in talent becomes too high.
Just think of the returners like MMA, PartinG etc. Haven't touched the game in years and still are instantly better than people who have grinded endlessly during that time.
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You gotta be talented, but without a good environment you don't go anywhere
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On August 06 2018 08:57 nanaoei wrote: never have i really believed in what talent stands for. talent describes special aptitude right? well instead, i believe that due to many different conditions, there's a difference in people for how quickly they pick up and learn something. if a skill or activity is to their liking, they're more likely to stick with it. that's about as far as that belief goes.
Hmmm - I don't think that talent can be described as pure skill/ability which is lying there and just explodes when activated. So I agree with you: talent is probably a more or less complex combination of abilities which makes it easier to learn certain things. Liking this stuff is helpful of course but I don't think that you have to like something to be talented in it. A good example is being gifted for languages: you'll have to learn everything like anybody else but it will stick easier to you and you'll be better in grasping the structures of a language - I think that is talent.
so why are there many more south korean professionals than everywhere else? well there's an answer that is quite simple and could remain simple for as long as the game retains a scene. what motivation is there to devote yourself and play the game to that level? you could ask this in more broad sense to catch other demographics, like the female playerbase in all of competitive gaming. if you have to work much harder and play with a disadvantage to get adequate practice (high ping), does that not also erode your motivation over time? the koreans take the game more seriously on average... and on an objective level, being serious means winning against the contemporary best-of-the-best. you could say they're more talented, but none of that is measurable in the first place. you can not measure the impact of somebody else's practice. you really can only look at yourself and conjure up the best version/revision at all times.
So, the assumption that koreans take the game more seriously on average kind of proves my point: more seriously trying players means a bigger relevant playerbase from which statistically more talents will arise. That doesn't mean that Koreans are more talented and that never was my point. Instead my point is: talent will be evenly spread over the world and having a better infrastructure can only be helpful to find and support great talent but the Serrals, Marus, Lifes, Taejas, Innovations, Stephanos, Neebs, Rains, Zests (and so on) will make it to the top no matter in what conditions they live, as long as they're existentially secure and can play the game alot in a somewhat challenging competition. This means that we have so many more of those players in South Korea can only be caused by a much bigger player pool of people getting into the game seriously enough.
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On August 06 2018 16:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 15:02 uummpaa wrote: Talent was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Practice is only relevant when two equally talented players face each other Just think of the returners like MMA, PartinG etc. Haven't touched the game in years and still are instantly better than people who have grinded endlessly during that time. Because both of them have grinded the game for much, much longer and harder before they took a break.
Talent and practice existence both on a scale and most people won't deny their existence, but talking about this topic as if practice can't compensate for both up until a high level is wrong imo.
This entire discussion is quite worthless because we don't even got a way to separate innate talent from, for example, having a better practice schedule.
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Back in the day, Stephano was publicly admitting he barely practices, yet he was winning left and right. Some people are just prodigies. Serral doesn't seem to be the same, he talks about focusing on the game a lot.
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On August 06 2018 18:27 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 16:05 Charoisaur wrote:On August 06 2018 15:02 uummpaa wrote: Talent was always the biggest factor for how good a player is. Practice is only relevant when two equally talented players face each other Just think of the returners like MMA, PartinG etc. Haven't touched the game in years and still are instantly better than people who have grinded endlessly during that time. Because both of them have grinded the game for much, much longer and harder before they took a break. Talent and practice existence both on a scale and most people won't deny their existence, but talking about this topic as if practice can't compensate for both up until a high level is wrong imo. This entire discussion is quite worthless because we don't even got a way to separate innate talent from, for example, having a better practice schedule.
this exactly
thats why i wrote the exact inverse of the first statement, if both of them are equally true, than it oversimplifies the matter pretty hard.
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