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I have signed up just to write this post. I have played many games now on ladder with all three races, but specifically with mech Terran. I play all three races, but my main at the moment is Terran and i exclusively play Mech. Thats why I was curious to find out whether the new patch made significant changes to make mech more viable.
TERRAN:
Cyclones - first i had hope that the Cyclone changes were positive, but as pointed out by the previous users, the Cyclones are way too squishy, they only have an early game role. If not backed up by blink-stalkers or sentries, they can snipe single immortals which is good. BUT they dont have a mid game/late game role as suggested by blizzard. They have way too low HP and the Lock-On range is too small which means having 10 cyclones doesnt have an advantage over 4, because simply they cant get in range to shoot before being totally destroyed (because of their low hp). Cyclone change = fail
Widow Mines - good change, makes them more viable overall. Without being overpowered in early game (cause in early game you wont have drilling claws)
Thor - what sounded like a buff is actually a nerf, i have not managed to defeat Brutelords or any sort of Skyarmy (from Toss) with it. Maybe 2-3 carriers ok. But as soon as Voids and Tempests are in the Mix they are total trash mostly because their armor is greatly reduced (same is true against brutes, Mix in a few swarmhosts and the reduced armor kills them immideatly). They feel like the new cyclones - too squishy. Thordrops or Thorpushes against Zerg? Forget it, they die way too quickly now. The Thor is almost being eliminated out of the game with the recent patch which is very sad. It is a big, chunky, slow Unit that gets countered by almost everything, what is the point of that? Big, clunky units are supposed to be strong. With the reduced range and Armor even smaller swarms of Mutas just snipe Thors.
Protoss: Carriers - good nerf, Carriers used to be too strong, especially in Teamgames.
Tempest - If you play Protoss youll like the change they are very fun to use BUT they are the new carriers. Once theres Storm and a few tempests its literally impossible to push against the Protoss army being Terran. Vikings can get in range because they get stormed. Thors just get sniped and kited by the tempest. BCs well you know the answer, outranged by them.
Disruptor - fun change back to the previous state, they are harder to use but generate greater damage
OVERALL: decent patch for Bio-Terrans with the widow mines. Complete failure for Mech-Players. win for all Protoss players.
Speaking for MECH Terran:
Swarmhosts need a fix. Tempests need a fix, Thors need a fix (not reduce its armor and range). I really wonder if the people that make the changes have feedback from users that actually play the game.
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Cyclone feels good for defensive TvP openers. Eschew the starport for a while.. Reaper FE into reactor with tech lab factory for cyclone and if needed a tank, otherwise swap rax to tech lab for stim and get 3 rax and +1 going. Very safe, defensive, macro oriented play leading very well into a 3rd base. Can hit a very strong ground based timing against greedy thirds too. If P opts for 3 base 8 gate, turtling with upgrades is still a viable option.
basically my opinion of the cyclone is it lets you "save money" by not getting the starport (safe from nearly everything without starport now) and can put that money into more long term focused things. Can't play too defensive because then protoss gets a ton of splash. Definitely reminds me of hots era play somewhat. This is just how i've been approaching the matchup - YMMV
also cyclone change has done wonders for TvT. Really cool builds out there right now revolving around the early game defensive capabilities of Cyclone.
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On November 25 2018 04:10 julhart69 wrote: I have signed up just to write this post. I have played many games now on ladder with all three races, but specifically with mech Terran. I play all three races, but my main at the moment is Terran and i exclusively play Mech. Thats why I was curious to find out whether the new patch made significant changes to make mech more viable.
TERRAN:
Cyclones - first i had hope that the Cyclone changes were positive, but as pointed out by the previous users, the Cyclones are way too squishy, they only have an early game role. If not backed up by blink-stalkers or sentries, they can snipe single immortals which is good. BUT they dont have a mid game/late game role as suggested by blizzard. They have way too low HP and the Lock-On range is too small which means having 10 cyclones doesnt have an advantage over 4, because simply they cant get in range to shoot before being totally destroyed (because of their low hp). Cyclone change = fail
Widow Mines - good change, makes them more viable overall. Without being overpowered in early game (cause in early game you wont have drilling claws)
Thor - what sounded like a buff is actually a nerf, i have not managed to defeat Brutelords or any sort of Skyarmy (from Toss) with it. Maybe 2-3 carriers ok. But as soon as Voids and Tempests are in the Mix they are total trash mostly because their armor is greatly reduced (same is true against brutes, Mix in a few swarmhosts and the reduced armor kills them immideatly). They feel like the new cyclones - too squishy. Thordrops or Thorpushes against Zerg? Forget it, they die way too quickly now. The Thor is almost being eliminated out of the game with the recent patch which is very sad. It is a big, chunky, slow Unit that gets countered by almost everything, what is the point of that? Big, clunky units are supposed to be strong. With the reduced range and Armor even smaller swarms of Mutas just snipe Thors.
Protoss: Carriers - good nerf, Carriers used to be too strong, especially in Teamgames.
Tempest - If you play Protoss youll like the change they are very fun to use BUT they are the new carriers. Once theres Storm and a few tempests its literally impossible to push against the Protoss army being Terran. Vikings can get in range because they get stormed. Thors just get sniped and kited by the tempest. BCs well you know the answer, outranged by them.
Disruptor - fun change back to the previous state, they are harder to use but generate greater damage
OVERALL: decent patch for Bio-Terrans with the widow mines. Complete failure for Mech-Players. win for all Protoss players.
Speaking for MECH Terran:
Swarmhosts need a fix. Tempests need a fix, Thors need a fix (not reduce its armor and range). I really wonder if the people that make the changes have feedback from users that actually play the game.
Well my experience using only mech on the new patch is the following:
TvT is the same, both mech and bio works.
TvZ mech is slightly better in the late game now, thors do excellent against smaller number of broodlords. I do not think Swarm Hosts are OP vs mech, they are a bit to cost efficient but they can be managed either by a) counter attacking OR b) Go up to 200 supply and taking advantage of Swarm Hosts not being supply efficient.
The key to neutralize Swarm Hosts is placing your army in the middle of the map, if you place your army too defensively you will eventually lose the game.
TvP mech is the same as pre patch. Mech can handle ground units, even tripple robo immortals or zealot/archons can be handled by tanks, hellbats and mines.
But sky Protoss is still impossible to fight. Carriers are still OP vs all mech units except BCs. And BCs get even more hard countered by new Tempest.
Basically mech can only work vs Protoss if the Protoss player is polite enough to stay on ground units.
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New patch was great to play
+ Show Spoiler +I played a few games. Protoss blink build against a terran going 4 2 rax fact. Messed his business up with 3 blink stalkers as he moved out. He took out my natural, and traded well against my blink stalkers back at home. I was at a 3k resource disadvantage, but I had +1 upgraded, and almost +2, and I still had some blink stalkers. And, my 3 retreating blink stalkers caught 3 empty medivacs. His widow-mine drop did 8 probes of damage and I killed the mines and his medivac. I retook my natural at my 3rd. As he drove me back from his 3rd, where I killed a CC and a few scvs with chargelots, he kept stimming to gun down a few zealots at a time. All the way back to my base, where I took a good engagement. I destroyed supply depots and an upgrading Ebay at his main with 8 blink stalkers. With +3, I was very efficient and got ANOTHER medivac (#9). All I did was get blink and charge and have good blink timing. I was at 46 supply, and he was at 84 but he said GG and left because he overestimated my economy from the 3rd. Lol.
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I am glad Blizzard is willing to make changes to improve the game as much as possible even if it may mean reverting changes that were once needed, but with this patch I am worried about many things especially regarding mech.
1) Thor armor and splash revert
Back then Mutas started to be really strong especially vs Mech so they increased the thor splash and thor armor. Honestly even back then, I was thinking the thor splash was perhaps too good, since 0.6 radius means it will splash a lot more even if magic box'd than compared to 0.5 radius. The armor was helpful too because as others said, it really helped the Thor not die to a buncha low tier units like zerglings, marines, and also helped against carriers and BCs. The 2 armor change for the Thor made a ton of sense.
I'm really not feeling the armor revert on the thor. Perhaps the splash revert to 0.5 from 0.6, but maybe keep the armor as 2? That would be a decent middleground I think. The thor would be much more durable that way and be able to fight the big units it's supposed to take down like BCs, Carriers, and Broodlords, while also not being countered as hard against things like zerglings, zealots, and marines. I think the 2 armor buff was very elegant at addressing several issues with the thor at once and I am sad to see it back to 1 armor.
2) Ghost mineral/gas cost revert to 150/150 from 200/100 (from a previous patch) The cost was changed to 200/100 way back then when Terrans started to really abuse EMP vs protoss and it was deemed too strong. So the cost was changed to 200/100 from 150/150 because bio does not need the gas as much but they need the minerals, while mech needed ghosts and didn't need minerals. So this was elegant because it helped mech get the support units it needs while making it less dominant for bio. Now after many years, it is reverted back. It is even harder to use Ghosts with mech, since you have to tech to them and they cost more gas. It is already harder to get ghosts in time compared to HotS because now you expand and tech up faster in general, and mech already needs to focus as many resources as it can into getting enough army to defend against Protoss and take a third base. Back then mech TvP was fine and even had time to comfortably add in ghosts once you got 3 base, now I don't feel like adding ghosts until 4 base.
Another thing that makes ghost change hurt even more for mech, is that the new Immortal shields now being temporary ~350 already makes ghost and EMP much less effective than back then. The old hardened shields which reduced damage to 10 was too polarizing indeed, but in terms of early-mid fights against mech, a couple EMPs made a huge difference because you can immediately get rid of the hardened shields. Now, you can't do that anymore.
3) Cyclones now no longer being a reliable and multi-purpose units early and mid game (TvP and TvZ at least) Being able to add cyclones early game really helped not just terran but especially mech players to have a solid opening. It didn't mean you were automatically safe against everything, as you still had to scout, position your cyclones to catch harass, decide whether to poke their expansion or keep them at home, whether to try to micro vs the stalkers, etc. I really miss the interactions of having the previous cyclones, and all the little action happening across the map as you try to fight for an advantage going into mid game.
Now you have less flexibility and in general you don't have as good of an all-rounder unit anymore. Perhaps other races prefer this as cyclones were probably a little too oppressive/polarizing though.
I also liked that Cyclones had use in mid game as well, as they did pretty fine vs Protoss armies. They didn't instantly die to immortals; sure they take huge damage, but they also dish huge damage back at the Immortals. They weren't the best unit in all situations but they were nice to have and made sure that protoss can't surprise you with just a few air units and crush your army. They were a nice unit to consider adding to your army, which really helped considering the ghost is less useful and more gas expensive now. But now we have lost this role of the cyclone too and TvP mech has even less options now.
4) Tempests being a polarizing unit now I really don't like the idea of super long ranged units doing so much damage while also being mobile. I think the old/previous idea of it having 6 supply and thus not being a deathball-massable unit, but being a useful support unit for the range, was good. I understand it had pretty niche uses in many situations and that it could be improved, but I do not think making a unit like this have mobility makes sense. It further speeds up the game and lessens the importance of careful, positional play. I think that takes away a lot of the suspense and fun when it comes to late game compositions with these powerful units.
I can understand giving it a little more speed, but I do not get making them cheaper and weaker, but keeping the long range and damage with increased speed. Sure they are weaker and can be killed much easier, but it just seems polarizing to me, and polarizing interactions should be avoided. If we want to make them 5 supply and cheaper to make, then can't we maybe nerf the damage slightly if you want to also make it much faster? Because as is, if the Terran can't even approach or engage your army without losing a ton to storm and tempest fire, then the Tempest being more fragile really doesn't matter. The lower durability only matters once an engagement happens, and I thought a direction SC2 had a lot of success in taking was lessening the commitment needed to engage, because it resulted in deathball situations where no one wanted to fight because of the risk in WoL especially but also HotS to a lesser extent. And tempests being 5 supply instead of 6, also contributes to the polarizing nature because you can now have even more tempests shooting before the terran gets to engage and take advantage of the lower durability.
Giving the tempests so much speed while keeping its high range and damage output simply will help cause the return of the old tempest/HT compositions that we got rid of for a good reason. I think buffing the speed to make them even better at kiting and picking stuff off, lowering the supply and cost thus allowing them to be more massable, all without reducing the damage doesn't make much sense and will force the opponent to run away or go all-in because it would hurt more to re-engage.
This kind of polarity applies to the new Cyclones as well. Sure with the upgrade they can do 800 damage to armored over 14 seconds, but... you need to be within 5 range to start lock on, and realistically you need to be closer than that to get all your cyclones to cleanly lockon. So it's an all or nothing thing, you go all the way in and get the lock ons, or you just avoid battle and try to turtle up to a more comfortable deathball because you're afraid to engage and make a wrong call.
A good example of reducing polarity though, is the new Carrier change. They made them more of a high durability support unit that can harass and poke and control space, rather than a deathball unit that just bursts things down before they get to return fire. It is less committal to engage with the carriers, making things like pokes much more viable and that leads to more player interactions. You don't have to run away, try to turtle to get the deathball you need to fight the carriers, and then go all-in on one fight.
I would like this direction to be kept in mind with the Tempest change and the Cyclone changes too. And if it was intentionally decided against, I would like to understand Blizzard's thoughts better.
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Extremely disappointed with the patch thus far. The Cyclone removal gutted terran early game and the thor nerf made mech much harder to play. The Zerg Creep and transfuse changes were completely unnecessary and nerfed Zerg for no reason. They weren't performing that well before except for Serral. I think it's clear at this point that Blizzard has no "vision" for the game anymore and just keep making random changes to "shake things up". Wish they would've abondoned balancing multiplayer earlier. At least Disruptor, Carrier, Infestor and thor AA splash changes are good.
Oh the Cyclone removal also ruined TvT because it's so much more volatile now.
Also they have done the opposite of what they promised in terms of lategame. they said they wanted to equalize lategame but instead they've left terran lategame unchanged and buffed P/Z lategame (Ultra and tempest buff).
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On November 25 2018 19:13 Charoisaur wrote:The Cyclone removal gutted terran early game
✧・゚: *✧・゚.* terran mothership core *:・゚✧*:・゚✧
On November 25 2018 19:13 Charoisaur wrote:Oh the Cyclone removal also ruined TvT because it's so much more volatile now.
♥*♡+:。.。 make a bunker 。.。:+♡*♥
On November 25 2018 19:13 Charoisaur wrote:they've left terran lategame unchanged
**✿❀ invisible mines, move & fire battlecruisers ❀✿**
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Early cyclone is amazing early game people need to learn to use again since theres no unit that has any comparable micro in the terran arsenal.
That being said they are indeed too weak because the removal of the MsC gave protoss much faster tech paths, either an HP buff (to help them in midgame) or shorter build times (to help tech to them faster) would be ok. Making them buildable withouth a tech lab its also a choice but its too soon to say if they would be too strong in such a situation.
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On November 26 2018 01:39 Lexender wrote: Early cyclone is amazing early game people need to learn to use again since theres no unit that has any comparable micro in the terran arsenal.
That being said they are indeed too weak because the removal of the MsC gave protoss much faster tech paths, either an HP buff (to help them in midgame) or shorter build times (to help tech to them faster) would be ok. Making them buildable withouth a tech lab its also a choice but its too soon to say if they would be too strong in such a situation. If they end up being too weak mid-late (still TBD IMO), giving lock-on +1 range with hi-sec autotracking would be a good option.
They look quite good in TvZ so far though.
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Did you link the wrong image? Haha
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On November 26 2018 09:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Did you link the wrong image? Haha
umm,what do you mean by "wrong image"?
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On November 26 2018 13:41 FBTsingLoong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 09:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Did you link the wrong image? Haha umm,what do you mean "wrong image"?you can't open that website? Do not use baidu pic as a reliable image source.
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On November 26 2018 13:48 Paulfirelordmu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 13:41 FBTsingLoong wrote:On November 26 2018 09:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Did you link the wrong image? Haha umm,what do you mean "wrong image"?you can't open that website? Do not use baidu pic as a reliable image source.
Oh,sorry,I didn't know that.So what image source should I use?
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I like the design changes for Tempest (faster, less hp, cheaper, less supply, better acceleration).
Problem is that the new Tempest is simply too good. They are so fast and have such long range that the units that are supposed to counter them can not do their job.
Vikings do not work since Tempest can kite them from 15 range and need to travel over half the map until they finally reach them, eating storms, archon splash and stalker fire in the meantime. Basically Viking do not work at all against Tempest.
Thors while beating Tempest in a straight up a-move battle does not work if the Tempest user kite. Since both units have the same ground range only a few of the Thors can get in range but almost all Tempest can due to how air units can stack.
15/10 range made sense back when Tempest were slow. Now when they are so fast the range need to be adjusted so that counter play is possible.
I suggest lowering the ground range to 9 and the air range to 13.
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I agree. I play mech, and to be honest, new tempest, while on paper looks squishy has given me a lot of trouble. Good protoss players will just start massing them and defending if they see mech. And to be honest it is such a good unit when produced en mass.
I haven't found a way to counter them, they are almost insta gg for mech player. Vikings should in theory counter them, but not really. Tempest superior range nullifies kiting. Thor can do some good if only 2-3 tempest are present, but if not they are easily sniped by tempest. Battlecruiser while good at countering carrier, is not cost effective vs tempest.
Mech needs some way to deal with this. And if your advice is just kill him before he goes tempest, that doesn't really do it for me. I like long macro games, that are back and forth.
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On December 02 2018 02:27 megamanx32 wrote: I agree. I play mech, and to be honest, new tempest, while on paper looks squishy has given me a lot of trouble. Good protoss players will just start massing them and defending if they see mech. And to be honest it is such a good unit when produced en mass.
I haven't found a way to counter them, they are almost insta gg for mech player. Vikings should in theory counter them, but not really. Tempest superior range nullifies kiting. Thor can do some good if only 2-3 tempest are present, but if not they are easily sniped by tempest. Battlecruiser while good at countering carrier, is not cost effective vs tempest.
Mech needs some way to deal with this. And if your advice is just kill him before he goes tempest, that doesn't really do it for me. I like long macro games, that are back and forth.
the problem is the overlap between goliaths, thors, vikings and liberator AA. if I was the big dick at blizz, I'd make the following changes:
1) remove thors from the game 2) new unit: goliaths + charon booster upgrade (+3 AA range) 3) replace the viking's lanzer torpedoes with a splash weapon (similar to the liberator's old AA weapon) 4) replace the liberator's lexington rockets with an aerial liberation zone (via the advanced ballistics upgrade)
the goliath would become the core AA mech unit, fulfilling the role of high impact payload. the charon boosters upgrade would fulfill the role of lanzer torpedoes.
the viking needs a different gimmick. you could give them a splash weapon, fulfilling the role of explosive payload. perhaps this would make vikings preferable vs mutas, phoenix and interceptors.
nobody builds liberators for AA splash. lexington rockets is a pointless attack and should be reworked to make the liberator's AA role more meaningful. I'll start with the crazy suggestions first:
advanced ballistics could be reworked to allow liberation zones to target air units. with the current range stats, advanced liberators would have 14 AA range in defender mode. this means tempests would only out-range them by 1. this is probably OP vZ... perfect opportunity to make the corruptor more interesting, or give it an upgrade. I hear that zergs also struggle vs the golden armada! if that's no good, make liberation zone AA also target friendly units. it's a crazy idea, but who knows? the liberator is a new unit after all... brand new technology for the terrans. write in the lore that they haven't mastered AA radar systems yet. and finally....... if liberation zone AA is completely unworkable, just give the liberator a simple move-and-fire (or scoot-and-shoot) 10 range, single-target, high-damage AA weapon and be done with it. liberators are pretty beefy, faster than the golden armada, and would do strong focus fire. basically, it would be a much stronger (and more expensive) version of the current viking's AA.
this would also fix the rock / paper / scissors shit that happens with bio / liberator vs lategame toss deathball + tempests. once tempests are on the field, bio terrans become desperate to end the game quickly because there is no answer to the tempests. well... the bio terran already invested so much in liberators to make him safe from the toss ground deathball. it doesn't make sense that those liberators should be rendered completely useless once toss climbs one rung higher in the tech tree. the real choice should be: how many liberators do I keep in siege mode (vs ground)? and how many should I keep flying, to help zone out the tempests? no more panic to mass vikings which inevitably get slaughtered by storms, archons, tempests and stalkers.
the cyclone has its own unique role which the goliath cannot imitate. lock-on is strong vs zerg ground units and as an early-game defense tool in the other match-ups. the goliath, on the other hand, is mediocre vs ground units and super strong vs long-ranged air units.
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Some GM streamers claim that Swarm Hosts are OP vs mech. At my lower level (Diamond) I find that Swarm Hosts (and Zerg in general) is quite easy to deal with.
So is there consensus that Swarm Hosts are OP vs mech at higher levels? And if so, how come Swarm Hosts are no problem at lower level? Why is Diamond level mech vs Diamond Level Swarm Host easier compared to GM level mech vs GM level Swarm Host?
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After playing the patch more same conclusions:
Swarmhosts have needed a hotfix since they came out with flying locust. Why this is still not removed from the game is disgusting, it's OP vs mech.
Mech changes are all bad - thor got - 1 armor for no reason, also dmg nerf to mutas....pretty bad. It is just as bad vs Protoss air as before.
Tempest now also are basically OP late game and replaced the carrier. I've played Protoss and against Protosses - it's laughable that BCS got "buffed" but it doesn't matter because as Protoss i can mass 15 tempest late game and 1 shot every BC while my tempest now move faster than before.
Cyclone change also screwed over TvT, more random cheese builds early game.
Overall, a pretty horrendous patch, mostly because of mech nerfs all across the board while not fixing mech issues (AKA SWARMHOSTS) while making mech counters worse (TEMPESTS).
I don't know how anyone can like the patch after over a week of playing, it's pretty bad considering there was no patch for 1+ yr and now we're stuck dealing with the game in a worse state.
But there's still people here that will claim it's fine because they like watching every Terran pro game be 5 barracks double reactor double tech lab reactor starport 1 factory every single game.
So, summed up:
-Mech worse because of random nerfs that were unnecessary (thor, cyclone nerfs) -Swarmhosts left unaddressed after 1.5+ yrs -tempests hyper buffed to be worse than carriers were last patch
Those are my thoughts.
Also, forgot to add they basically removed the raven from the game. Ravens went from being one of the most overpowered units in the game to being useless. Terran currently has no late game unit vs two races that have hyper scaling units (swarmhosts, broods, vipers, templar, tempests, carriers). Someone explain to me how this is good balance.
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I can't say I'm enjoying this patch very much. Lategame PvZ is not fun at all. If the game last past the chargelot/archon/immortal vs. hydra/ling/bane phase it turns into a turtlefest while aiming for mass tempest with archon and storm, which is borderline as broken as mass carriers were before, but way more passive since tempests can't chew through stuff in the way the old carrier did. I've yet to have a lategame PvZ be less than 35-40 minutes, and it's never an exciting, fun lategame.
Same with PvT versus mech. The only effective option is tempest compositions. Nothing ground-based works once enough hellbat/tank is out, voidrays still suck, carriers are bad now (liberators can basically nullify them now since they can kill interceptors so fast and then it's over a minute to get the carriers back to full strength), so all that's left is tempests.
To me, the new tempest feels way too strong, but it's also kinda the only option available in the lategame now. I've noticed I've been playing substantially less since the patch came out, and I wouldn't be shocked if I stop again like I did in Heart of the Swarm when the old swarmhost was a thing. The game just feels stale to me now. The tempest is such a boring unit, and making it the key unit for protoss was a huge mistake.
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