European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1212
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Sent.
Poland8967 Posts
On December 08 2018 01:31 ShiaoPi wrote: Also quite glad that AKK beat out Merz. Some Merz-fans are now saying that the AfD will easily collect 20-30% now, but somehow I doubt that their favorite would be a better choice to combat the right-wing populists Nobody expected him to do that, he was supposed to convert some AfD supporters by being more right wing than Merkel. Exactly, thought it would be funny to make a comment about the situation in France without mentioning it explicitly | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Also Poland and being under foreign rule. | ||
Artisreal
Germany9227 Posts
What a big fucking jock and joke, that guy. | ||
zatic
Zurich15240 Posts
This result makes me rather pessimistic about politics in Germany in the near future. | ||
Artisreal
Germany9227 Posts
This country doesn't need a new fuhrer. This country needs more discourse about its political and social direction. Coming back from Scotland, it's incredibly sad how people treat each other on the street in everyday life (Berlin). This really makes me sad. But I'm curious as to how Merz actually embodies Christian and Conservative values? | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
That's the reason why he could skyrocket so fast, that's the reason why he has chances of taking back AfD-voters (because they read and trust in Bild)+ Show Spoiler + although I don't believe he can halve the AfD, the AfD also wins from other parties like TheLeft, the SPD or from non-voters | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
The State does not like being beaten. The images of the Arc de Triomphe “desecrated” and Paris burning were too much, France's international image (something which matters a lot for macronists, more than the lives and bodies of demonstrators) is at stake. Besides, pundits asked for “order” (i.e. in practice, protestors' blood) all the week in the press. So tomorrow, the State is heading for a full display of power to remind serfs who the boss is. One quote is enough to sum up the state of mind of the sociopaths who govern us: “if there are 10 deaths this week-end, it's not sure that we can keep the minister of Interior” (says “someone close to Macron”, source (in French)). Notice how the guy, casually considering the worst slaughter in demonstrations since 1961, is merely bothered by the fact that they might have to replace the minister of Interior. Luckily, “it's not sure”. The government will mobilize 8 000 cops tomorrow in Paris (up from 4 600 last Saturday) and 89 000 across France (up from 65 000). This is the biggest police device since May 68. Paris will pretty much be a dead city in the targeted areas, shops will be closed, events have been cancelled, no metro, etc. The government also proudly announced that 12 blinded vehicles will be used. + Show Spoiler + This has little concrete impact, but it was highlighted by the government's communication: see, we are determined to do the maximum to tame the thugs. It was announced that Macron would finally talk early next week. It was said that “he won't talk before Saturday as to not pour more oil on the fire”. This means two things: first, he's aware of the intense hate he concentrates (perhaps a bit dramatically, some newspaper reported that he had mentioned the possibility to “end like Mussolini” …); second, he has nothing to announce to appease the protestors, otherwise he would have used it to defuse the crisis. This probably means that he does not intend to make further concessions, and that his next address will likely be about condemning violences and “restoring order,” i.e. essentially a middle finger to the movement of the “yellow vests”. The government has warned all week that thousands of people will come Saturday in Paris to “riot and kill”. They asked “reasonable” people not to come because of “extremists”. Several police unions had warned that at some point, cops might have to fire with real bullets. They have done pretty much everything to prepare people with the ideas that protestors will die tomorrow. And I will be very surprised if it doesn't happen. On top of the general will to avenge last week's defeat, they have allowed the police to go at melee range tomorrow (usually they try to keep protestors at bay), and like all policing specialists know (and said) this rises the risk of severe injuries or deaths. The government cannot ignore this, thus they made that choice on purpose. Given all those warnings and this week's provocations (firing at minors' heads with flashballs), the government is playing the “maximum scare” card. They are a bit desperate to separate the determined people on the field with the “silent majority” in the background (so far the popular support holds, despite the images of mayhem). With its strategy of tension (radicalize people, then repress them) the government probably expects to smother the movement with “me or the chaos”. It has failed so far, but with better staging and more blood perhaps it will work tomorrow for this “act IV”? Historically in France, whenever the lower classes loudly jump on the political scene with egalitarian demands, the class in power loves to shout “the Republic is in danger!” and stomp popular revolts. Since macronists have absolutely no talent, I imagine they will simply opt for this age-old scenario. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3155 Posts
b) countrysiders who take it out on Parisians and the city like we are not in the same boat What did we do? Those hooligans smash banks, destroy the city property, delay/stop the trains/subway from running. Who pays for that? The local taxes and insurances keep rising, it s already hard to find a job as it is, and then you cant even go to work. Do you think Macron and his folks care? Meanwhile our image is tarnished more and more by the day, that means less tourists, less investment, and overall less money to pay for whatever the poor regions need, because dont forget we are paying for pretty much every other region (and that s ok, that s how a normal country works). I left the country because of this, such a waste of money. You think macron is responsible for everything? How about the previous guys? Do you really think wauquiez/le pen/melenchon would be good? Let s face it they are all equally as bad. Violence is not the way, you forget than after the revolution came the empire then the restoration ( not to mention 20yrs of war) Edit: TheDwf, i dont disagree with you. Most of your points are very valid. And the state has acted horrendously, i m just saying calls for violence and destruction and revolution are dangerous | ||
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On December 08 2018 03:39 Artisreal wrote: The supposedly strong leader, no thank you. This country doesn't need a new fuhrer. This country needs more discourse about its political and social direction. Coming back from Scotland, it's incredibly sad how people treat each other on the street in everyday life (Berlin). This really makes me sad. But I'm curious as to how Merz actually embodies Christian and Conservative values? I'm more interested in the contrast with Scotland. Tell me more. I'd always had the impression Germans were organised and polite, while we generally view the Scottish as our rowdier northern neighbours. | ||
Mafe
Germany5917 Posts
On December 08 2018 03:39 Artisreal wrote: The supposedly strong leader, no thank you. This country doesn't need a new fuhrer. This country needs more discourse about its political and social direction. Coming back from Scotland, it's incredibly sad how people treat each other on the street in everyday life (Berlin). This really makes me sad. But I'm curious as to how Merz actually embodies Christian and Conservative values? I'm normally very careful to confirm any prejudices. However, my few visits to Berlin tended to confirm the "Berlinians are not nice people and even proud of it"-stereotype (that I believe to be common within the rest of germany). Imho it is rather different in the other parts of germany which I know. | ||
iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4254 Posts
Interested to see if any cops refuse to follow Govt orders. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GNh0fXOhy4M Make France great again! User was warned for this post. | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On December 08 2018 22:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Make France great again! Posts like this isn't needed. The situation in France has nothing to do with Trump. | ||
Artisreal
Germany9227 Posts
On December 08 2018 22:05 iamthedave wrote: I'm more interested in the contrast with Scotland. Tell me more. I'd always had the impression Germans were organised and polite, while we generally view the Scottish as our rowdier northern neighbours. I'm gonna quote a part of my post from the offtopic thread (typos included ) People are more approachable and much more friendly in general. Though I can only speak from my experience in Edinburgh. Sometimes it's the way things are set up. For example you can only get out of or into the bus through the same door. So people wait in line (yes!) for the bus, have to let everyone out and then go into the bus in that order they arrived at the station. Except if you have elderly, people with buggies, toddlers, etc. or if anyone says/signs "after you". Can't imagine that in Berlin at all. It's me first most of times. That became apparent to me when I landed in Berlin the last time and took bus and underground to get home. I think it's in part some kind of shell people put up to get through the commotion of transport, rush hour. I used to avoid public transport when I was studying cause it was so stressful with all the grumpy people and the waiting and standing around in a bad moody atmosphere of people going to a workplace where they didn't really wanted to be. As we Germans are difficult to embrace strangers anyway, this is exacerbated by the hectic of a relatively big city. I don't know how people cope in Tokyo or NY or Mexico City. I think big citites just arn't for me. I'm madly in love with edinburgh and the people here, long time residents or expats from different countries. Random chats at the supermarket cashier or in the café or while on a walk are the norm here in Edinburgh. It might play a role that I live in morningside, but the locals that I talk to make me believe that is not the case. On December 08 2018 22:19 Mafe wrote: I'm normally very careful to confirm any prejudices. However, my few visits to Berlin tended to confirm the "Berlinians are not nice people and even proud of it"-stereotype (that I believe to be common within the rest of germany). Imho it is rather different in the other parts of germany which I know. I've lived in a couple of bigger cities in eastern and western Germany. Of course most of my experience of Germany is shaped by growing up in Berlin. That's a whole different Germany compared to basically the rest of the country. And while I've got incredibly kind people as friends, that doesn't mean these people, or even myself when I'm in the city, behave in a way that I condone when in public. I'm quite shocked by myself to be honest when I was again accustomed to using the public transport. Putting up blinders and ignoring everyone else. As soon as I realized that I tried to change it to be more aware of my surrounding, e.g. when people want to leave the underground, I open the door for them when I'm near it, same for when people want to enter, give up the seat for someone who needs it more, shift over a seat so friends / a couple / parent+kid can sit next to each other. Hold a door for someone. While I do see other people do that, it's not that common and most of the friendliness vanishes in rush hour anyways and then it's everyone for themselves. It's anectdotal, but my mom got shoved out of the way by a twen as she was looking where to go at the train station. There was space left and right of her. I am missing respect and common decency very much in Berlin. If you're a biker, car drivers and pedestrians suck. If you're a pedestrian, bikers are crazy and disrespectful and if you're a driver cyclists are suicidal, pedestrians too slow to cross the street and other drivers are idiots. Generally I feel that people talk in a condescending way and even if they might actually be in the wrong, they double down and it's their right to use the whole expanse of the shared bike+footpath and the biker can go fuck himself. This is in part, I think, to people being incredibly defensive when they might have erred on something. Overgeneralizing here, but making mistakes is not something that is acceptable, we are perfectionists and if mistakes happen, it's because of someone else. And of course it's not like this everywhere (see my post above that I quoted) When I worked in Frankfurt am Main, the general mood was a lot brighter compared to Berlin, albeit in a less affluent neighbouring city where I lived, I felt just like in Berlin. When visiting my family in a small city in the south, people are more open, chatty, respectful, though still very much short of the warmth and open and friendliness that I've experienced here in Edinburgh (and during a 5 week trip through Scotland a couple years back). Also my impression is, that in private there is little difference between people here or there. But how we treat each other on the street seems way different. As always, these are my personal impressions of everyday life that fall into different, observable patters depending on the region or country where I am. They might vastly differ from individual to individual, though my wife has a very similar impression of living in Scotland compared to Berlin. The rudeness of Germans was also very apparent to me after living in Brazil for haf a year a couple years back. The cliché of Germans being difficult to approach and generally direct to unfriendly until you breach through their shell to actually get to know their friendly side is not for naught, in my opinion. To be clear, I don't want to shit on the people, because there are good and idiotic ones as everywhere, but some parts of our culture seem to support being more self centered when acting in a non professional, public setting. I will observe this more closely when moving back to Berlin next year. | ||
pmh
1344 Posts
250 people have also been arrested "pre-emptivly" | ||
Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On December 09 2018 08:40 pmh wrote: 1400 people arrested at the protests in france today. No clue about the total number but it must be way over 2k by now. Are these people still in jail and being charged with anything? Arrests being made in these numbers is a bit worrying tbh. The protests are anything but peaceful I guess but 1400 people seems a bit over the top. Why so many? 250 people have also been arrested "pre-emptivly" About 1000 out or 1400 have been kept for questionning (can be kept up to 48h). If they follow the pattern of the last protests, ~15% end up with light suspended sentences and ~5% sent to jail. Most should be out by monday, but wouldn't be surprised if >50 end up in jail for 3-6months. | ||
Makro
France16890 Posts
On December 08 2018 09:20 WGT-Baal wrote: I m so tired of seeing my city degraded every time by a)the cgt and other unions repeatedly destroying things for no reasons b) countrysiders who take it out on Parisians and the city like we are not in the same boat What did we do? Those hooligans smash banks, destroy the city property, delay/stop the trains/subway from running. Who pays for that? The local taxes and insurances keep rising, it s already hard to find a job as it is, and then you cant even go to work. Do you think Macron and his folks care? Meanwhile our image is tarnished more and more by the day, that means less tourists, less investment, and overall less money to pay for whatever the poor regions need, because dont forget we are paying for pretty much every other region (and that s ok, that s how a normal country works). I left the country because of this, such a waste of money. You think macron is responsible for everything? How about the previous guys? Do you really think wauquiez/le pen/melenchon would be good? Let s face it they are all equally as bad. Violence is not the way, you forget than after the revolution came the empire then the restoration ( not to mention 20yrs of war) Edit: TheDwf, i dont disagree with you. Most of your points are very valid. And the state has acted horrendously, i m just saying calls for violence and destruction and revolution are dangerous i guess it's easy to vote since 40 years for the same political caste and falling for the same lies then take the street to try to change everything in 2 weeks insteaf of acknowledging that maybe we (the people) should have been more concerned overall, but at this point the people and the pliticians being short sighted is no news france gonna france, the situation being more complicated nowadays since the second and third political power in france are the far right and far left due to previous years of bullshitery whoever would have been president, things would have turned like this anyway | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
It is much easier to just say: "well, we did vote for that party, right? So after all I must not complain. I am probably in the minority with my opinion anyways." From my personal experiences it turns out I am hardly truely in the minority, but most people just tend to say "yeah, but what are you gonna do about it?". Until they don't. | ||
nojok
France15837 Posts
On December 09 2018 22:50 Makro wrote: i guess it's easy to vote since 40 years for the same political caste and falling for the same lies then take the street to try to change everything in 2 weeks insteaf of acknowledging that maybe we (the people) should have been more concerned overall, but at this point the people and the pliticians being short sighted is no news france gonna france, the situation being more complicated nowadays since the second and third political power in france are the far right and far left due to previous years of bullshitery whoever would have been president, things would have turned like this anyway Except it's not far left. It's becoming ridiculous, the rich control absolutely everything. Just check the Greek situation, it's mind blowing that some vulture funds could risk the stability of Europe while putting hundreds of thousands of people in poverty. They control almost all medias, they spend hundreds of millions on subconscious manipulations and somehow if you say we should share wealth a bit more you are far left? The traditional left was not different from the right except on social issues (gay rights, women rights, migrant issues can't think of more tbh). | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
“Not as bad as expected” was globally the verdict in mainstream medias. The government's propaganda about thousands of people coming in Paris to “kill” was just that: propaganda. The “yellow scare” project failed badly. 10 000 people still came in a barricaded Paris (vs 17 000 for the climate, 25 000 according to organizers). Many less cops were wounded, but according to Paris' mayor and merchants the material damages were actually superior yesterday. The demonstrations turned into clashes in several other cities as well. We are more and more gliding towards a police state. Before 09:00 hundreds of protestors had already been arrested, I think I saw the figure of 300 when I got up… Before mid-day the count was 500, at the end of the day the count of people arrested was almost 2 000. Two. Thousands. Including 1 082 in Paris. So according to its own numbers, the Interior claimed that they literally arrested 10% of the demonstrators. And Mr. Interior was proud of it—those are exceptional figures, he said; and they're still going up! (He was at 1 385 when he said that…) Out of those 2 000 arrests, 1 700 people were held into custody. So what did most of those people do? They had respirators. According to the State, if you have a respirator so that you can breathe when cops decide to spray the whole street with gas tears, you're a thug. Some people were arrested with weapons or projectiles, fine; but many had only respirators and had to stay the whole day in custody, only to be released after the demonstration. Public liberties? Only a fair weather concession to serfs. Cops won the roulette yesterday, no one died. But the brutes in uniform showed again their strong attachment to deontology and proportionality: + Show Spoiler + Notice how they keep firing grenades when people retreat… One journalist said that a cop fired at the back of his neck with a flashball (source in French) from a distance of 2 meters. He lost consciousness a few seconds, then was sent to the hospital. Luckily his helmet had not been seized by cops the morning, otherwise he would probably be at the morgue instead. Many photojournalists reported that cops had deliberately targeted them or broken their equipments. + Show Spoiler + Shooting dem like pigeons: O young fool, did you think you could exercise your constitutional rights in the street? 2018 France says: denied! This 20 years old woman lost the use of an eye (source in French). Erdogan even had the luxury to criticize cop violence in France... In many places, people knelt in solidarity with the high school pupils humiliated by cops in a suburb (see here). + Show Spoiler + Macron will speak tomorrow evening on TV. Before that he receives unions (bosses and workers) and the president of both chambers. I was wrong, according to the press he does intend to make further concessions. Paris being turned into a ghost town every Saturday in December and the various blockages elsewhere cost too much anyway. Out of the many demands of the yellow vests, I bet he will pick what best fits his own neoliberal agenda—tax cuts or stuff like that. No way he grants a general rise of wages or rises the taxes of his oligarch and bankers friends who funded his campaign, and got all the tax cuts as an investment return. And of course the demand for more democratic institutions—rather than this joke system when you can get full powers with 1 voter out of 5—will be ignored. If Macron is clever he will apologize, at least for his attitude; otherwise his words won't even be heard. As his catastrophic approval rating shows in the last polls + Show Spoiler + Elabe: 23 (-4) TNS-Sofres: 21 (-5) Yougov: 18 (-3) An “act V” is scheduled for next Saturday (15/12). The day before, the biggest trade union scheduled a national demonstration, but given the lack of solidarity from the direction with the yellow vests and how late it is (almost one month after the beginning), I'm not sure it will be a success. Anyway the fun part of this moment is that fear has switched sides. Now people in power are the ones under the unpleasant pressure of time, they're the ones who have to hold their breath every week. So refreshing given the usual daily spectacle of their arrogance. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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