This is DL_Raptor from warcraft 2, I also used to be NotNumbaOne-aF- . My bro is CasperTheGhost if anyone remembers us...we raped Free Castles when WC2 was still alive..
Ah Free Castles..... Never had so much fun. I think I was like 14 when I played this game and didn't go to my freshman year of high school because of it!!!
Does this guy still post here? Anyway they did an updated diablo 1 with win 10, widescreen support etc available on gog.com now and they’re doing same with war 2 soon. I’d be up for a few games.
This game is great, but the map every one plays on is trash. One of the starting locations is literally so bad that you have to leave it and build a base at an expansion instead, because it mines gold so slowly.
If people would play on the new Garden of War instead, then I'd play this game.
On March 15 2019 08:57 Amarok wrote: Is Orc still the only viable race?
Human's not that bad depending on the map. There is no defence against invisible mages blizzarding your peons. None. However, this requires a lot of money, which in turn requires that it's easy to take and wall off expansions. On open, low economy map,s the human war machine never gets going.
On March 15 2019 08:57 Amarok wrote: Is Orc still the only viable race?
Human's not that bad depending on the map. There is no defence against invisible mages blizzarding your peons. None. However, this requires a lot of money, which in turn requires that it's easy to take and wall off expansions. On open, low economy map,s the human war machine never gets going.
Human's mages are arguably a bit stronger than the death knights, however, the orc's bloodlust is absolutely insanely overpowered which makes the orcs pretty imbalanced and the only viable race if you are playing to win. If the human player has extremely high apm, knows the game inside out and the game is on a suitable map, he can outplay an orc using the mages' advantages, moreover paladins' exorcism will shut down the death knights in a spells casting game, however, this is just a theoretical scenario, which is extremely rare and usually out of the players capabilities, so at the end Orcs are just way stronger in probably around 95%+ of the time.
On March 15 2019 08:57 Amarok wrote: Is Orc still the only viable race?
Human's not that bad depending on the map. There is no defence against invisible mages blizzarding your peons. None. However, this requires a lot of money, which in turn requires that it's easy to take and wall off expansions. On open, low economy map,s the human war machine never gets going.
Human's mages are arguably a bit stronger than the death knights, however, the orc's bloodlust is absolutely insanely overpowered which makes the orcs pretty imbalanced and the only viable race if you are playing to win. If the human player has extremely high apm, knows the game inside out and the game is on a suitable map, he can outplay an orc using the mages' advantages, moreover paladins' exorcism will shut down the death knights in a spells casting game, however, this is just a theoretical scenario, which is extremely rare and usually out of the players capabilities, so at the end Orcs are just way stronger in probably around 95%+ of the time.
This. The notable differences are...
- Blizzard > Death and Decay by a narrow margin for killing units (vice versa for buildings), so peon storms are slightly more effective - Invisibility has no counters at all - Exorcism kills DKs very quick, making it more difficult to use them effectively - Bloodlust >>>>>>>> Healing - Weapon attacks at Blacksmith require more resources (800g vs 500g 150l for level 1, 2400g vs 1500g 300l for level 2) for human - IMO Holy Vision > Eye of Kilrogg for scouting - Haven’t seen any high level use of Runes
So basically, human is on relatively even (slightly below due to expensive upgrades) playing field until tier 3, at which point they need to either harass with paladins like crazy or turtle until they get mage tech online. Once mage tech is up they have more options, but using mages is very micro-intensive. Each mage needs to kill either 3 ogres or 4 peons in order to be worth it’s cost, and it’s very difficult to manage each one while also macroing and staying alive from constant bloodlust attacks.
Water maps are particularly helpful for human since the opponent Orc can’t just A-move bloodlusted ogres across the map to kill them and puts human on a more level playing field; human can also make their transports invisible for a nice advantage.
Typical human strategy involves heavy rushing, especially tier 2 knights, because this is when human is most equal to Orc and also when Orc most vulnerable teching to tier 3. In practice though, it is very difficult for human to do enough damage to Orc to allow human to transition to mage tech safely.
On March 15 2019 08:57 Amarok wrote: Is Orc still the only viable race?
Human's not that bad depending on the map. There is no defence against invisible mages blizzarding your peons. None. However, this requires a lot of money, which in turn requires that it's easy to take and wall off expansions. On open, low economy map,s the human war machine never gets going.
Human's mages are arguably a bit stronger than the death knights, however, the orc's bloodlust is absolutely insanely overpowered which makes the orcs pretty imbalanced and the only viable race if you are playing to win. If the human player has extremely high apm, knows the game inside out and the game is on a suitable map, he can outplay an orc using the mages' advantages, moreover paladins' exorcism will shut down the death knights in a spells casting game, however, this is just a theoretical scenario, which is extremely rare and usually out of the players capabilities, so at the end Orcs are just way stronger in probably around 95%+ of the time.
I don't find it theoretical as I used to do it in practice. I wasn't the best player of all time, but I was decent. I stopped playing because people accused me of smurfing because I was too good for an unknown player, and of faking getting better for attention because I got too good too quickly. I also stopped playing because Garden of War BNE got less popular than Garden of War classic, and the old Garden of War is not only worse for Human, but has a starting location that is so underpowered that people walk away from it to claim an expansion instead (which has less gold than the main base, so you get handicapped twice).
With StarCraft levels of apm, say 300+, on maps that allow for it, it is an entirely viable strategy to spam expansions and towers while you keep sending mages everywhere to kill peons, ogres, and barracks. Paladins with exorcism protect your towers (some zeppelins are needed to do this over wood, like in the middle of Garden of War). Yes, it's hard, but if you're used to defending against recalls with EMP, then you can do this, too.
If I had to play WarCraft II to save my life, I would choose Human over Orc. After practicing Human, I'm better at Human. But as I said, on some maps, Human just can't get going.
Blizzard does more damage to units than death and decay, which means that fighting ogres with blizzard is better, and even Orcs use death knights against ogres on occasion. Also, invisibility is better than haste. Once you get your economy going, the Orc is helpless. He can't stop your invisible mages. It's impossible. Blizzard also does more damage to medium sized buildings, but less damage to small and large sized buildings.
I still have my WarCraft 2 BNE disc somewhere and would love to play with any TLers. I'll show you the power of the human race! Hehe. Although, I think that the custom server has better netcode, like ICCup used to over battle.net. www.server.war2.ru is its website.
On March 15 2019 08:57 Amarok wrote: Is Orc still the only viable race?
Human's not that bad depending on the map. There is no defence against invisible mages blizzarding your peons. None. However, this requires a lot of money, which in turn requires that it's easy to take and wall off expansions. On open, low economy map,s the human war machine never gets going.
Human's mages are arguably a bit stronger than the death knights, however, the orc's bloodlust is absolutely insanely overpowered which makes the orcs pretty imbalanced and the only viable race if you are playing to win. If the human player has extremely high apm, knows the game inside out and the game is on a suitable map, he can outplay an orc using the mages' advantages, moreover paladins' exorcism will shut down the death knights in a spells casting game, however, this is just a theoretical scenario, which is extremely rare and usually out of the players capabilities, so at the end Orcs are just way stronger in probably around 95%+ of the time.
This. The notable differences are...
- Blizzard > Death and Decay by a narrow margin for killing units (vice versa for buildings), so peon storms are slightly more effective - Invisibility has no counters at all - Exorcism kills DKs very quick, making it more difficult to use them effectively - Bloodlust >>>>>>>> Healing - Weapon attacks at Blacksmith require more resources (800g vs 500g 150l for level 1, 2400g vs 1500g 300l for level 2) for human - IMO Holy Vision > Eye of Kilrogg for scouting - Haven’t seen any high level use of Runes
So basically, human is on relatively even (slightly below due to expensive upgrades) playing field until tier 3, at which point they need to either harass with paladins like crazy or turtle until they get mage tech online. Once mage tech is up they have more options, but using mages is very micro-intensive. Each mage needs to kill either 3 ogres or 4 peons in order to be worth it’s cost, and it’s very difficult to manage each one while also macroing and staying alive from constant bloodlust attacks.
Water maps are particularly helpful for human since the opponent Orc can’t just A-move bloodlusted ogres across the map to kill them and puts human on a more level playing field; human can also make their transports invisible for a nice advantage.
Typical human strategy involves heavy rushing, especially tier 2 knights, because this is when human is most equal to Orc and also when Orc most vulnerable teching to tier 3. In practice though, it is very difficult for human to do enough damage to Orc to allow human to transition to mage tech safely.
You are right overall, but the way you describe it is like Human actually has a fighting chance which is not really true except fpr some very rare cases. For example there is no even a point to compare Heal and Bloodlust or holy vision and the eye, all paladins' spells are completely useless in a competitive game. The game pace is so fast that neither healing nor holy scouting is actually applicable or useful, anyone can scout with a unit anytime, they cross the map in seconds. If the holy light was a tier 1 spell then maybe. Heal - no comments, Exorcism is also not really that useful since again the pace of the game is so fast that the knights can just right click a DK to kill it as effective as exorcism, of course there are exceptions but overall the paladin upgrade is absolutely unnecessary to invest time and money in it. In that sense Human's mages tech comes fairly as fast as the bloodlust tech, because human does not need to invest in church, paladin etc, however, this cant really stop the bloodlusted attack move ogres, which I am sure you already know. Perhaps if the humans instead of heal had mid sized aoe dispel, then perhaps there could have been some mind and micro games between the races that would have include paladins/mages/ogres/dks spell casting outplays but its whatever now:-)
On March 15 2019 08:57 Amarok wrote: Is Orc still the only viable race?
Human's not that bad depending on the map. There is no defence against invisible mages blizzarding your peons. None. However, this requires a lot of money, which in turn requires that it's easy to take and wall off expansions. On open, low economy map,s the human war machine never gets going.
Human's mages are arguably a bit stronger than the death knights, however, the orc's bloodlust is absolutely insanely overpowered which makes the orcs pretty imbalanced and the only viable race if you are playing to win. If the human player has extremely high apm, knows the game inside out and the game is on a suitable map, he can outplay an orc using the mages' advantages, moreover paladins' exorcism will shut down the death knights in a spells casting game, however, this is just a theoretical scenario, which is extremely rare and usually out of the players capabilities, so at the end Orcs are just way stronger in probably around 95%+ of the time.
This. The notable differences are...
- Blizzard > Death and Decay by a narrow margin for killing units (vice versa for buildings), so peon storms are slightly more effective - Invisibility has no counters at all - Exorcism kills DKs very quick, making it more difficult to use them effectively - Bloodlust >>>>>>>> Healing - Weapon attacks at Blacksmith require more resources (800g vs 500g 150l for level 1, 2400g vs 1500g 300l for level 2) for human - IMO Holy Vision > Eye of Kilrogg for scouting - Haven’t seen any high level use of Runes
So basically, human is on relatively even (slightly below due to expensive upgrades) playing field until tier 3, at which point they need to either harass with paladins like crazy or turtle until they get mage tech online. Once mage tech is up they have more options, but using mages is very micro-intensive. Each mage needs to kill either 3 ogres or 4 peons in order to be worth it’s cost, and it’s very difficult to manage each one while also macroing and staying alive from constant bloodlust attacks.
Water maps are particularly helpful for human since the opponent Orc can’t just A-move bloodlusted ogres across the map to kill them and puts human on a more level playing field; human can also make their transports invisible for a nice advantage.
Typical human strategy involves heavy rushing, especially tier 2 knights, because this is when human is most equal to Orc and also when Orc most vulnerable teching to tier 3. In practice though, it is very difficult for human to do enough damage to Orc to allow human to transition to mage tech safely.
You are right overall, but the way you describe it is like Human actually has a fighting chance which is not really true except fpr some very rare cases. For example there is no even a point to compare Heal and Bloodlust or holy vision and the eye, all paladins' spells are completely useless in a competitive game. The game pace is so fast that neither healing nor holy scouting is actually applicable or useful, anyone can scout with a unit anytime, they cross the map in seconds. If the holy light was a tier 1 spell then maybe. Heal - no comments, Exorcism is also not really that useful since again the pace of the game is so fast that the knights can just right click a DK to kill it as effective as exorcism, of course there are exceptions but overall the paladin upgrade is absolutely unnecessary to invest time and money in it. In that sense Human's mages tech comes fairly as fast as the bloodlust tech, because human does not need to invest in church, paladin etc, however, this cant really stop the bloodlusted attack move ogres, which I am sure you already know. Perhaps if the humans instead of heal had mid sized aoe dispel, then perhaps there could have been some mind and micro games between the races that would have include paladins/mages/ogres/dks spell casting outplays but its whatever now:-)
Excorcism is much better than melee attacks. You need it to defend the middle of Garden of War because death knights can attack from behind the wall of trees, and it instantly oneshots a death knight if done with enough mana. It's really the best defence against death knights - if you react in time. It's just like defending vs recalls with vessels. If you have flying machines or staggered towers to pre scout, then you buy yourself more time, too. The alternative to defending against death knights is polymorph, but this is inferior because you want to use mana for invisibility and blizzard. It also takes longer to get the mana for it, than it takes to get enough mana for an exorcism oneshot.
I was never at the top level, but that I managed to beat Orcs all of the time, getting somewhat high on the ladder is, I think, not evidence of me being some ultra talented monster, but that, with 300 apm on the right map, Human is strong. If anything, Human should get better at higher levels, not worse.
Many players said what you are saying, that it only works in theory, but is too hard to execute in practice, until I beat them. One of them got mad at me for tryharding and trying to be amazing at a really old game.