ClouD vs G5 Results and Interview - Page 8
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StorrZerg
United States13906 Posts
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nicoaldo
Argentina939 Posts
And yeah ClouD, stream some of your games, u are great. | ||
Spike
United States1392 Posts
He had better build orders but both games were lost to poor decision makings and positioning. Game 1: Trying to save the right expansion (credit to G5 for timing) + slow storm. Extremely bad positioning, should have just pulled back and canceled nexus. Would have to go back and watch but at that point, I don't think Cloud would have won that battle with better positioning anyway. Game 2: Could have killed that nexus and gotten out with his army more or less intact. Mid-game was more even due to the fact that G5 was running on 2 nexus to 1 for some time. After surviving G5's little push, Cloud should have just sat on 3 bases and go for map control. Hindsight is 20/20 though. G5's timing and positioning overcame slightly worse build orders. Congrats. | ||
Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
g5-12z/20g cloud- 13z/15g/4ht no storm I quite like mass goon/speedz 10min attack. With 5gate->citadel, 1gas only and cut probes a bit one can attack with ~20g/20z. This is a really safe way to play the midgame to make sure you don't get out massed, though you may be out teched. Going for temp tech means spending 150/200 on archives, 100 on 2nd assim, 200/200 on storm, 100/300 for 2ht at least. Translate gas to possible mins and that makes >1000min cost just for first 2storms. Defensive storm player has some setup advantage and travel distance though. But g5 did attack the 3rd a bit blind. Cloud had better macro overall, but bad positioning when it mattered, less units, no storm. Units is what matters most. Game 2, cloud actually completes his 3rd this time, but again no storm, and units is what matters most. I like watching both players, and I can see why cloud is frustrated, but such is starcraft. | ||
Freezard
Sweden994 Posts
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EGMachine
United States1641 Posts
gj buddy. PVZ PRAC GOGO! | ||
StarN
United States2587 Posts
I'm so sad for our Cookie Monster Toss though :[ | ||
TT1
Canada9927 Posts
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
I can sort of understand ClouD writing that bm post earlier since he did play bad and got eliminated from a 23k tourney. G5 <3 | ||
Boblion
France8043 Posts
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
On January 08 2010 01:13 ProTech_MediC wrote: He won simply because ClouD didn't execute proper battle micro. GG. Yea that stuffs unimportant anyways, let's try to squeeze out more probes 2 base vs 2 base during battles. | ||
ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
GG to Cloud as well to get so far. Can't wait G5vsFlaF. | ||
REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2356 Posts
The secondmost important thing, once you're outside your natural, is controlling the middle bridges. An inferior army, both in composition and numbers, can crush any army in the process of crossing the bridges. Hell it'll even crush an army that has just crossed the bridge since that army will be all clumped up and the other army will have a perfect surround. This is why I believe cloud claims to have been better prepared. G5's build on desti is just a dead end in higher level play. It had no specific timing. It merely relied on hoping his opponent was stupid enough to attack into him, or that is opponent was bad enough not to cover the bridges as though his life depended upon it. With this said: Cloud was actually stupid (or nervous) enough not to cover the bridges. He was bad enough not to realise what G5 was doing (he should've been able to deduce enough with his observer intel, seeing the low probe count and enough of everything else). He was bad enough to keep 4 goons at each far corner of the map guarding against drops despite seeing what was going on. Which means what exactly? It means he didn't make the connection in game. He didn't read his opponent's build correctly. He didn't conclude from the intel that all he needed to do was survive a few more minutes. He didn't recognise his opponents bad build. Now this is one of the most frustrating feelings you can experience in brood war. You've played a game where your actions were tailored towards stopping a smart opponent, where you assumed your opponent was playing a smart game, where you tried to be on top and ahead of every little advanced and smart little trick or play your opponent might pull. Cloud puts 4 goons in each corner. In his mind G5 prolly cut some probes to storm or dt-drop earlier. Cloud has an observer watching G5's 3rd, which G5 appears to be taking like any normal and smart player, though slightly later than Cloud, which probably makes Cloud feel comfortable. Cloud also has an observer at one of the middle bridges. It sees G5 preparing to cross the bridge, it sees him cross the bridge. But, Cloud seems mentally unprepared for such a "stupid" or rather "simple" play. In his attempt to counter any move a smart player would make -- any of the tens or hundreds of advanced moves his practice partners made -- he forgot about the very basics of PvP on destination. He forgot about the possibility of an opponent doing a so called "stupid" strategy. Nowhere in his mind did he expect for G5 to cross the bridges, and that's probably why it took him almost 10 seconds to react. Once he realised what was going on it was too late. The reason these kinds of plays are so frustrating to let go is because you know you would never ever lose to it again given another chance. At least that's the immediate feeling that will overwhelm you after playing such a game. But in reality, you know you've lost to that "crap" before, and that every once in a while you need to be reminded of the fact that so called "stupid" builds still exist. Every once in a while you need to be reminded to pay attention to the basics. To not blindly assume that every possible variation of a build you're playing is within the standard variation of an optimal build for said map. This "every once in a while"-game that's so important to have faced, every once in a while, will probably last you 200 future games of caution and paying close attention to the basics of both your own play and your opponents. What I'm guessing went wrong for Cloud, was that, in his training, and in his laddering, he hadn't had one of these "every once in a while"-games for a long time. And I'm telling you, there's no worse feeling than losing because you abandoned the basics of something you know by heart. I know cloud is a good enough a player to know he should have had the bridges covered. To know that he pretty much gave away a game by overlooking the rudimentary basics. He even partially had the bridge covered with the observer (even though his army was out of position). But he simply didn't expect that move, it took him far too long to react to it even though he had ample warning from the correctly placed observer. I'm not surprised G5 played that way if he talked the games over with white-ra prior to this. But white-ra works with multiple timings. Bust timings... contain timings... Mid game army bust timings. Usually all in one and the same game. One timing usually sets him up for pulling off the next succesfully. G5 didn't have any timings really. He just cut probes, played the game like a completely normal macro game. Sat 5-6 minutes hoping his opponent would attack. Cloud didn't, G5 realised he'd lose if he didn't attack soon (absolutely the right move by him). Prayed to god the bridges were clear, and by some miracle they were. Added bonus miracle: opponent's army was still scattered once he'd crossed the bridges. 1a2a3a4a'd and won. I'm not taking anything away from G5, but this simply wasn't a very sound game plan... Get off Cloud's back. He acknowledges he didn't deserve to win, he made far too many mistakes for that. But he should still have the right to think his opponent played bad/stupid on a map. | ||
ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
Analog for your long post: A Kung Fu Master engages a street gangster, and although the Kung Fu Master is GOSU, the street gangster pulls of a gun and shoots him, this way utilising one of the lowest strategies of battle ever. GET OVER IT. The Gangsta' lives, the Kung Fu Master dies. Imagine getting CHEESED IN SOME PROGLEAGUE FINALS. Now THAT can be considered low. But not crossing a bridge and attacking at a point in time when it would sound STUPID for Cloud it's just smart not dumb. This is all about in StarCraft, surprising your enemy. Geeeesh!! | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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Spike
United States1392 Posts
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ProTech_MediC
United States498 Posts
On January 08 2010 07:32 ceaRshaf wrote: That's quite possibly the worst StarCraft analogy I've ever read.LaLuSh , lol . "At a higher level it would not work". This is the higher level for foreign. Analog for your long post: A Kung Fu Master engages a street gangster, and although the Kung Fu Master is GOSU, the street gangster pulls of a gun and shoots him, this way utilising one of the lowest strategies of battle ever. GET OVER IT. The Gangsta' lives, the Kung Fu Master dies. Imagine getting CHEESED IN SOME PROGLEAGUE FINALS. Now THAT can be considered low. But not crossing a bridge and attacking at a point in time when it would sound STUPID for Cloud it's just smart not dumb. This is all about in StarCraft, surprising your enemy. Geeeesh!! | ||
Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
On January 08 2010 07:12 LaLuSh wrote: + Show Spoiler + The reason it's stupid to cut probes on desti is because getting into a good position before battle is really hard. The natural is virtually unbreakable early mid game and this will in almost every game buy sufficient time for your macro advantage to kick in. The secondmost important thing, once you're outside your natural, is controlling the middle bridges. An inferior army, both in composition and numbers, can crush any army in the process of crossing the bridges. Hell it'll even crush an army that has just crossed the bridge since that army will be all clumped up and the other army will have a perfect surround. This is why I believe cloud claims to have been better prepared. G5's build on desti is just a dead end in higher level play. It had no specific timing. It merely relied on hoping his opponent was stupid enough to attack into him, or that is opponent was bad enough not to cover the bridges as though his life depended upon it. With this said: Cloud was actually stupid (or nervous) enough not to cover the bridges. He was bad enough not to realise what G5 was doing (he should've been able to deduce enough with his observer intel, seeing the low probe count and enough of everything else). He was bad enough to keep 4 goons at each far corner of the map guarding against drops despite seeing what was going on. Which means what exactly? It means he didn't make the connection in game. He didn't read his opponent's build correctly. He didn't conclude from the intel that all he needed to do was survive a few more minutes. He didn't recognise his opponents bad build. Now this is one of the most frustrating feelings you can experience in brood war. You've played a game where your actions were tailored towards stopping a smart opponent, where you assumed your opponent was playing a smart game, where you tried to be on top and ahead of every little advanced and smart little trick or play your opponent might pull. Cloud puts 4 goons in each corner. In his mind G5 prolly cut some probes to storm or dt-drop earlier. Cloud has an observer watching G5's 3rd, which G5 appears to be taking like any normal and smart player, though slightly later than Cloud, which probably makes Cloud feel comfortable. Cloud also has an observer at one of the middle bridges. It sees G5 preparing to cross the bridge, it sees him cross the bridge. But, Cloud seems mentally unprepared for such a "stupid" or rather "simple" play. In his attempt to counter any move a smart player would make -- any of the tens or hundreds of advanced moves his practice partners made -- he forgot about the very basics of PvP on destination. He forgot about the possibility of an opponent doing a so called "stupid" strategy. Nowhere in his mind did he expect for G5 to cross the bridges, and that's probably why it took him almost 10 seconds to react. Once he realised what was going on it was too late. The reason these kinds of plays are so frustrating to let go is because you know you would never ever lose to it again given another chance. At least that's the immediate feeling that will overwhelm you after playing such a game. But in reality, you know you've lost to that "crap" before, and that every once in a while you need to be reminded of the fact that so called "stupid" builds still exist. Every once in a while you need to be reminded to pay attention to the basics. To not blindly assume that every possible variation of a build you're playing is within the standard variation of an optimal build for said map. This "every once in a while"-game that's so important to have faced, every once in a while, will probably last you 200 future games of caution and paying close attention to the basics of both your own play and your opponents. What I'm guessing went wrong for Cloud, was that, in his training, and in his laddering, he hadn't had one of these "every once in a while"-games for a long time. And I'm telling you, there's no worse feeling than losing because you abandoned the basics of something you know by heart. I know cloud is a good enough a player to know he should have had the bridges covered. To know that he pretty much gave away a game by overlooking the rudimentary basics. He even partially had the bridge covered with the observer (even though his army was out of position). But he simply didn't expect that move, it took him far too long to react to it even though he had ample warning from the correctly placed observer. I'm not surprised G5 played that way if he talked the games over with white-ra prior to this. But white-ra works with multiple timings. Bust timings... contain timings... Mid game army bust timings. Usually all in one and the same game. One timing usually sets him up for pulling off the next succesfully. G5 didn't have any timings really. He just cut probes, played the game like a completely normal macro game. Sat 5-6 minutes hoping his opponent would attack. Cloud didn't, G5 realised he'd lose if he didn't attack soon (absolutely the right move by him). Prayed to god the bridges were clear, and by some miracle they were. Added bonus miracle: opponent's army was still scattered once he'd crossed the bridges. 1a2a3a4a'd and won. I'm not taking anything away from G5, but this simply wasn't a very sound game plan... Get off Cloud's back. He acknowledges he didn't deserve to win, he made far too many mistakes for that. But he should still have the right to think his opponent played bad/stupid on a map. WOW Awesome Review | ||
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