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On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed
From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order.
General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
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On December 03 2010 01:08 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:02 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:31 Roban wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
Why post a build order, just say maybe the first two numbers then use the format after X get Y. To you and me these things seem understandable, but to someone who is in lower leagues or someone whos first RTS is starcraft 2 they will read that as a plan they need to stick to, and if your really mean to aid someone in proving your point you can tell them what to get after something else and as there skill increases their ability will do it will increase and maybe a new optimal way to get things will evolve... which is what we all want for starcraft
not to mention, if something gets buffed or nerfed in a patch lowbies are going to wonder why they arent getting the things at the time they should be, which won't win your strategy any popularity as the game progresses By your logic we should all stop posting build orders because the opponent could rush you with 5 workers... The OP is describing a very very flexible opener where you get the most economy if you follow it to the letter. Nobody said to do the opener blindly, no matter what happens. If you don't understand that, then don't look at build orders anymore. But let the rest of us who DO understand how to use them post about it okay? you wouldn't be able to carry out your build order without workers now would you. Build orders stifle creativity, and adaptability, if your going to follow a build order every game you could be a million points diamond, but if you just know how to follow build orders your either going to get messed up by early pressure, or lost in the late game when the build order stops. Notice you've never seen a build order that says "if this push fails do X" because everyone is so fucking confident in their build order that they don't see if failing. If you are really so against Build Orders, just pretend the OPs post says 11 Overpool/18Hatch and leave it at that. That really is all it is. How is that different from saying 14 pool/16hatch, or something? These timings are necessary to know, otherwise you could be screwing yourself early on with suboptimal (read: bad) openers.
shit man, if you use a bad opener and win the game does that make you a good player or does that make you an optimal player? To that question there is no complex answer, maybe we should all be trying bad openers, so that when we discover what works for us individually optimally from a human perspective, not a computer perspective its something to really share.
14 pool/ 16 hatch is fine, you can follow that every game no matter what pretty much, its when the build gets past that where I have a problem, every game I go 9 pylon 12 gate then I don't play optimally (*gasp) but does it make me a bad player, does it make me some kind of build order calculator that just knows when to place buildings? does it make me 100% adaptive? fuck no. Just means that I am playing the game at a rate in which I play it, when I scout sometimes I forget to put a probe in my nexus for a few seconds, that would mean that parts of this guys build are already thrown out the window maybe I accidently put down my pylon on 10, It dosen't mean I've instantly lost. A build order is something simple, because when you play, you will make mistakes, thus trying to play optimally isn't going to happen "well the pros play optimally all the time" but your not a fucking pro and neither is anyone else on this thread.
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On December 03 2010 01:06 Dominator1370 wrote: Transition to whatever you like. Seriously. You don't need someone to spell out the transitions for a 14 hatch 14 pool because you're not restricted in any way, and can transition in any way that is appropriate. This isn't any different.
As far as gas timing, scouting, etc. it's the same: do it whenever you want, depending on what you want to do. The only time something like this should be noted is if doing so would effect the build in some way. For example, dropping down an Extractor before your Hatchery and putting 3 Drones in it likely screws up the timing of your Hatchery, but this is likely intuitive. Likewise, scouting on 10 could (I haven't checked) delay your Hatchery by a little bit. It might be beneficial to note at what time you can effectively scout without delaying your hatch, but that's something you should pick up if you play with it a few times. Once the hatch is down, though, you should be able to pretty much do whatever you want to do that makes sense. Overlord and Drone timings from then on obviously assume ideal, uninterrupted play. If your opponent is doing something you should probably react to it.
Sure, except he's relying on having no gas or a late gas to achieve his "maximum economy" with this build. That's a pretty big leave out, so the transition question is more so for how to transition to what you scout, since you're likely breaking build sequence way before 30.
Like, using the haploid build order tester, if you add in an extractor at 18 supply (and only spawn with queens, no creep), his build will have mined a total of 3431 minerals and 329 gas at 5:54. If you then alter that exact build to 14p/15h it will have mined a total of 3674 minerals and 277 gas at 5:56 and have 1 more mineral drone. In this case, the 14p/15 appears to have better economy as 340 minerals seems better to have than just over 50 extra gas. (note, I didn't even try to further optimize the second build for queen timing, etc.).
The adding of the gas is extremely important in this case, since the WHOLE POINT of his OP was to claim this is the best econ build. gas changes the picture greatly
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On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. Show nested quote + General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration.
I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost.
Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal
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On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration. I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal
what the hell is wrong with you?
I'd tell my friends to constantly build workers too.
But to make sure they weren't building 6depot7barracks8gas9factory. Id help them out with a build order to AIM FOR.
So because you cant do something properly yet? ITS BEST NOT TO TRY?
You're a fucking retard son, i'm sorry to say it.
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Just to preach a bit: obviously no build order will account for absolutely everything, and when attempting any BO, when you run into a wall, add folds to your gameplan. If you're convinced it doesn't work, find the alternative that works better, post it on TL so we can share in the glory lol. Part of the reason (most of the reason) this thread even exists is because the standard 14 hatch/whatever pool sometimes doesn't cut it on certain maps, due to (pylon wall in, pylon block, eng bay block, 2-rax marines, bunkers, CB double stalkers, etc etc), so here's an alternative that hypothetically could leave you not much worse economically, and is apparently more cheese proof. It's just the natural evolution/process of exploring new strategies.
That said, when I get home I'm going to test it more thoroughly to see how different variables would effect the build. There are some things that I typically do a lot/every game that, when taken into account, I'm uncertain as to how it effects the build. For example:
-Scouting drone/gas steal? How does removing a drone effect the build? -Can you fit one pair of early zerglings after pool? -When do you put down your extractor?
In the meantime, would like to hear from you guys who have tried it, how it effects the build (if at all!) thanks
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Sorry OriginalBeast, you're wrong.
You can't 'learn' to be optimal through trial and error except perhaps by luck. 'Optimal' is a quantifiable term. It means 'the best under some criteria'.
The OP has defined his criteria and after some local searching, has declared that his build is 'optimal'. If you want to argue, then you have to offer a counter example. The rant about execution by different level of players is irrelevant. The OP never said this was a guide for how to play or 'a build order tailored to peoples ladder ranking'. He said it was 'optimal'.
My main concern for this build is the lateness of the hatchery means you do not benefit from the extra larvae, faster queen or creep to place a defensive spine. I often wait for the queen to pop from my expansion and extra lings to crush offensive bunkers. What is your experience with that?
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On December 02 2010 15:12 Conrose wrote: I think this build is quite vulnerable to hidden tech, particularly in the case of DTs, Phoenix openings, Banshees and Vikings. ZvZ, you'll really want to catch when they put down that Baneling Nest and hotkey your Drones. I also see early Muta harass being potentially dangerous with this BO. However, vs the current FotM builds, it is flexible enough to hold up.
Isn't every build vulnerable to hidden tech? I mean, if you haven't scouted their tech, how are you going to properly prepare for it?
When your opponent scouts an 11-pool, I think they'll be reluctant to tech straight to air and focus more on defensive measures. When they're fearful of a rush, they will pour funds into their army, delaying their tech and allowing this build to 'catch up,' although it seems like you're already ahead since you're fast teching to Spawning Pool and giving you the option of attacking or macro'ing.
And also, when you scout your opponent and see them fast teching with no (or few) units, transitioning into early aggression is a lot easier when you're Spawning Pool is already completed.
When your opponent shows early aggression, it's a lot easier to defend with your Spawning Pool completed. Spine Crawlers already take eons to build - it'd take a bit longer if you're waiting for the Spawning Pool to finish.
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On December 03 2010 01:58 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration. I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal what the hell is wrong with you? I'd tell my friends to constantly build workers too. But to make sure they weren't building 6depot7barracks8gas9factory. Id help them out with a build order to AIM FOR. So because you cant do something properly yet? ITS BEST NOT TO TRY? You're a fucking retard son, i'm sorry to say it.
Listen here you stupid fuck, the thread is titled the new zerg standard, obviously in a game of infinate variables your trying to explain how doing one thing for every match is standard. Maybe you should think before you speak, and I don't give a shit what you tell your friends if they are in a low league, because when they try something that they have heard is standard and then have 1000 minerals and 1000 gas and come to you and say why isn't this standard/optimal build working for me your should feel like you forced them to play that way instead of just allowing them to spend their minerals how they see fit. So, if you weren't so fucking ignorant, and realized we were after the same thing except you want them to do it a certain way and I think they should be creative and play to what suits they style; that really makes you seem like a fucking retard unless you just make all your friends your bitch.
secondly when did I say that 6depo7barracks8gas9factory was what they should do? If you wern't such an asshole and/or taught your friends better as I see your so accustomed to they would learn over time that that wouldn't win games. However if you allow them to be creative, and allowed them to stray outside of the standards they could find something that sends you begging for their "build order" but seeing as your just a fucking faggot that would rather agree with everyone on the internet rather than provide any kind of insite to make people think in ways that would gain them further knowledge, I barely see why you feel like posting anything at all was necessary, other than to show that you and your posse of friends were complaint little bitches
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration. I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal
Your problem is obviously with build orders in general, and that's not the subject of this thread. Also to all the people saying things like : you didn't build a gas, or lings that's why this build is better economically: you are wrong. This build has been compaired to the others with the same assumptions (no lings produced / no gas). Should you chose to build lings with this build, I'm pretty sure you can have around the same amount than say a 14pool 14 gas at the same time, and probably still be ahead in workers.
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On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote: ... I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible...
...if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead...
...Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order"...
I think OriginalBeast and jdseemoreglass are working towards different purposes here. Beast has some valid points, if we remove the assumption that the player can make correct decisions. He's trying to protect the innocent newbie who can't tell good information from bad. He' trying to prevent the formation of bad habits and reliance on external crutches. It appears that jd's target audience was the more experienced crowd, who can recognize the merits and pitfalls of a proposed build order.. This explains why the points of contention between the two views seem irrelevant to each other.
I'm not sure how to address this. People will always attempt to use whatever tools they have at their disposal, even if they can't fully capitalize on their usefulness. Build Orders can be useful to the appropriate crowd, and the one presented in this thread has a lot of value to an appropriately skilled player. It will certainly be less effective, or even detrimental, to someone who doesn't have the foundation to use it.
I don't think this is grounds for dismissing it, or not posting it. The OP hasn't misrepresented any information, and he isn't responsible for someone using this information incorrectly. At best, we could put a disclaimer at the top suggesting this BO is targeted at more skilled players, but the net effect of that would likely be more attention and higher adoption. I admire your protectiveness, Beast, but I'd rather have this knowledge public and actively debated, than censored or never discussed. That's my opinion anyway.
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On December 03 2010 02:13 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration. I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal Your problem is obviously with build orders in general, and that's not the subject of this thread. Also to all the people saying things like : you didn't build a gas, or lings that's why this build is better economically: you are wrong. This build has been compaired to the others with the same assumptions (no lings produced / no gas). Should you chose to build lings with this build, I'm pretty sure you can have around the same amount than say a 14pool 14 gas at the same time, and probably still be ahead in workers.
"you are wrong." no... read my last post, incorporating an 18 gas and switching the build to 14p/15h produces more drones and more resources than this build... the timing of the gas is what makes this not "optimal" and shouldn't then be considered standard.
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On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, I'm just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration.I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal
Who's making you out to be the bad guy? You're concerned that new players will take something that is clearly stated as a general guideline, as something that's gospel and to be done rigidly?
If anything the OP would agree with you, because the entire point of the build is to add flexibility; not take it away. So unknowingly, your intentions are aligned lol. Adding folds to your gameplay is a normal part of figuring out the game, as is taking the BO the wrong way, losing because the build doesn't explicitly include gas, and then figuring it out when to add it afterwards.
Not even sure you have a point man, all that really happened here was, OP posted a build order he figured out after some strenuous testing, and then suddenly you're here standing up for the newbies who might use it incorrectly. I think you really took his post entirely the wrong way.
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Wow OriginalBeast, did you ever read the strategy forum guidelines?
Rule No 1
Everything you say must be supported by evidence
I'd love to see any evidence you have that playing bad (using unoptimized build orders) causes a player to win more games of Starcraft.
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So Lomilar has done a double win with his Evochamber. Everyone gets to try out builds, and then he creates a universal opener. It's nice to know that I can finally make a move that keeps my opponent vary, giving me opportunities to either go aggressive or build up.
While it's nice and good that the economy discussion is closed for now, how about the different varying situations that one will encounter on the ladder?
Time to log off TL, and log on to Bnet.
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On December 03 2010 02:12 OriginalBeast wrote: Listen here you stupid fuck
Stopped bothering to read and write reasonable constructive arguments at this point.
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On December 03 2010 02:16 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 02:13 Bellygareth wrote:On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration. I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal Your problem is obviously with build orders in general, and that's not the subject of this thread. Also to all the people saying things like : you didn't build a gas, or lings that's why this build is better economically: you are wrong. This build has been compaired to the others with the same assumptions (no lings produced / no gas). Should you chose to build lings with this build, I'm pretty sure you can have around the same amount than say a 14pool 14 gas at the same time, and probably still be ahead in workers. "you are wrong." no... read my last post, incorporating an 18 gas and switching the build to 14p/15h produces more drones and more resources than this build... the timing of the gas is what makes this not "optimal" and shouldn't then be considered standard.
In your test, you probably put the geiser a bit too early (hence the fact that you got more gas in the end). I would be interested of the mineral results if you delay it a bit more to have the same amount of gas than a 14p15h at 5:56. Intuitively your drone mines a bit more, allowing you to produce 1 more drone, mining a bit more himself.
However you have the right idea. Testing the build against similar builds and that's exactly what I'm saying :D.
Edit: also even though it could still be behind with a gas, I'm still a fan of this build for its hability to answer to early pushes, without being too far behind if the push doesn't come.
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On December 03 2010 01:38 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:06 Dominator1370 wrote: Transition to whatever you like. Seriously. You don't need someone to spell out the transitions for a 14 hatch 14 pool because you're not restricted in any way, and can transition in any way that is appropriate. This isn't any different.
As far as gas timing, scouting, etc. it's the same: do it whenever you want, depending on what you want to do. The only time something like this should be noted is if doing so would effect the build in some way. For example, dropping down an Extractor before your Hatchery and putting 3 Drones in it likely screws up the timing of your Hatchery, but this is likely intuitive. Likewise, scouting on 10 could (I haven't checked) delay your Hatchery by a little bit. It might be beneficial to note at what time you can effectively scout without delaying your hatch, but that's something you should pick up if you play with it a few times. Once the hatch is down, though, you should be able to pretty much do whatever you want to do that makes sense. Overlord and Drone timings from then on obviously assume ideal, uninterrupted play. If your opponent is doing something you should probably react to it. Sure, except he's relying on having no gas or a late gas to achieve his "maximum economy" with this build. That's a pretty big leave out, so the transition question is more so for how to transition to what you scout, since you're likely breaking build sequence way before 30. Like, using the haploid build order tester, if you add in an extractor at 18 supply (and only spawn with queens, no creep), his build will have mined a total of 3431 minerals and 329 gas at 5:54. If you then alter that exact build to 14p/15h it will have mined a total of 3674 minerals and 277 gas at 5:56 and have 1 more mineral drone. In this case, the 14p/15 appears to have better economy as 340 minerals seems better to have than just over 50 extra gas. (note, I didn't even try to further optimize the second build for queen timing, etc.). The adding of the gas is extremely important in this case, since the WHOLE POINT of his OP was to claim this is the best econ build. gas changes the picture greatly Haploid's build order calculator shows 11 pool 18 hatch significantly behing 14 hatch 15 pool regardless of gas. I'm more inclined to believe that this is a result of an inaccurate simulation than that players are doctoring replays of actual in-game tests with the openings.
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I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but did the economy calculator take into account the fact that the extractor trick "in reality" loses you 10 minerals (25-15), since unless you cancel another building (not supposed to happen in the early game according to the BO) you won't be able to use the other 4 minerals refunded by cancelling the extractor?
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On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: A build order is something simple, because when you play, you will make mistakes, thus trying to play optimally isn't going to happen "well the pros play optimally all the time" but your not a fucking pro and neither is anyone else on this thread.
A build order is a blue print or guideline with the goal of optimizing your Starcraft 2 play. And this thread discusses a different blue print that may (or may not) do just that. If you do not agree with it, then you are more than welcomed to refute it with facts or with a logical foundation.
But if you're going to get emotional, go watch some porn, masturbate, calm down, then we can resume this conversation as mature males. You sound like a female.
"Trying to play optimally isn't going to happen" IF you don't try. Everyone can TRY to play optimally; whether they are successful depends on the: 1) The knowledge of how to play optimally. 2) The desire to play optimally. 3) The effort put into playing optimally.
The pros are the ones who tried so hard to play optimally, that they succeeded, to some degree.
This forum is here for the discussion of #1. Please don't tell us to not discuss possible scenarios and build orders because it doesn't conform to your beliefs.
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