|
On December 03 2010 18:45 Tobberoth wrote: Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something? Why did it take protoss 6 years to realize corsair/dt was a great pvz opening? Why did it take zerg players almost 3 months of beta/release to realize that mutas raped thors? Why did it take terran players a month+ after patch 1.1.2 to realize you can punish hatch first with marine+scv?
Starcraft is complicated, we don't figure everything out right away. Also, there's always a tendency in SC to assume that the current builds/strategies are the best way of doing things, and as such, people don't spend much time theorycrafting about stuff like this.
|
On December 03 2010 18:17 genopath wrote: I've played quite a few with this build. It does very good in 2 things: fends off early rushes such as 6 pool and 2 rax and does well mid to late game since you will have an expo running almost as good as 14/15 hatch.
There is a small window when you are saturating your expo. A strong marine push or a strong sling harass can take you down really quick. Your hatch compared to 14/15 hatch goes a bit later which means spines are also delayed. You usually need 1 or 2 to properly defend your expo. I was discussing this with Skraj but I don't we got to a optimal point of where you ought to make your spines without losing your economic advantage which is by essence what a 14/15 hatch does.
Furthermore there is another problem I've encountered. I have to say this is also a natural problem with 14/15 hatch and of course i mean Gas I've also been running tests to see when is the best time to get your first gas under this build. It seems that either after your queen is done might be best solution for now.
Has anyone else experienced similar problems? Start the spine in your main and you'll have no problem getting spines up in time.
|
On December 03 2010 18:58 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:45 Tobberoth wrote: Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something? Why did it take protoss 6 years to realize corsair/dt was a great pvz opening? Why did it take zerg players almost 3 months of beta/release to realize that mutas raped thors? Why did it take terran players a month+ after patch 1.1.2 to realize you can punish hatch first with marine+scv? Starcraft is complicated, we don't figure everything out right away. Also, there's always a tendency in SC to assume that the current builds/strategies are the best way of doing things, and as such, people don't spend much time theorycrafting about stuff like this. I know this, but it's not really comparable IMO. One thing that makes it so that new builds come out a lot later in SC1 is because of metagame, it's more of a rotation than completely new builds. This is not the case here. As for the muta raping thors, that's because the magic box was "invented". marine+scv punishing hatch isn't anything new from what I know, bunker rushing has been a strong tactic since beta. The difference is that this 11 pool build consists of nothing new and it's nothing really complicated. IMO, it makes perfect sense for any pro to take a build and make it as safe as possible, and it makes no sense that it would take this long for someone to realize that there's no reason to build the pool at 14, it can be built at 11. There's no magic box to invent, there's no patch. It's just an earlier pool with the same economic advantage. Take your 14 pool and build it earlier to potentially have earlier lings.
The argument that "you don't actually get lings early, that will hurt the economy" isn't important either, the same is true for 14 pool, you don't actually want to build lings when it finishes.
Bear in mind, I'm not criticising the build or the OP, i'm questioning how no one came up with this earlier... why has everyone blindly played 14 pool if 11 pool is just as strong?
EDIT: Just want to say, I'm SO trying this build since it sounds awesome. It looks extremely safe and PERFECT for 2v2, 3v3 etc since it gives you so much flexibility.
|
i just canot believe this is the most economic pool first opening. It seems weak, i have to try but i have strong doubts.
ok, i watched a rep, the 4 gate. What level is this? Silver? The guy has energy maxed out on nexus before the warpgate finishes, he used like 3 chronoboosts in the entire game, 1 on the warp tech, 2 on the probes, could be 1. Also he had like 40 apm. He attacked at ~8:10, just FYI the 4 gates i'm dealing with come around 6th minute mark, had even at 5:30, 9th minutes is even late for 4 gate blinkstalker attack. So i have no idea if this build actually suffers from early agression so far. Gonna watch some more, really not impressed so far
|
So when I saw the post where this build originated from I decided to do a bunch of leg work and test things for myself.
I took data at the beginning of the second of the 6:00 mark. It's very important that it's consistantly at the beginning of the second. Note that the amount for the 11 pool is taken from the only replay that the OP provided in the post where the build originated. He has a table that claims 4620, but I believe that he got that number by taking data at the end of the second. Unless I see a replay otherwise I have to believe 2530 is the correct number at the beginning of the second since I have gotten about that every time I have done the build. Here are the results for different build orders.
+ Show Spoiler +11P/18H + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4539 Pool Placed: 1:33 Hatch Placed: 3:00
16H/15P + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4780 Pool Placed: 2:35 Hatch Placed: 2:15
14H/13P + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4685 Pool Placed: 2:26 Hatch Placed: 2:05
14H/14P + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4670 Pool Placed: 2:32 Hatch Placed: 2:05
15H/14P + Show Spoiler +NOTE: I messed up slightly on this one, but the numbers are still better than 11 pool so it's relevant Mineral Mined: 4665 Pool Placed: 2:30 Hatch Placed: 2:11
13P/15H + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4630 Pool Placed: 1:46 Hatch Placed: 2:38
For anyone that thinks an 11 pool doesn't affect your economy, just take note that pretty much every hatch first build under the sun performs better by at least 100 minerals, which is not that small.
Also, note that a 13P/15H also performs better. I don't know how many other builds perform better than the 11 pool, but I thought that that was relevant because the pool time on that build was only 13 seconds slower than the 11 pool build, and the hatch was quicker than the 11 pool.
Here are all the replays mentioned for you to double check things and get a more precise idea of the build orders. I also included the replay that the OP gave in his post about the 11 pool build order for convenience. Some of the replays of the hatch first builds I just winged the overlord timings, so don't follow those too closely. The only ones with planned overlord timings are the 16 Hatch 15 Pool and the 11 Pool 18 Hatch replays.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On December 03 2010 19:09 Tobberoth wrote:
Bear in mind, I'm not criticising the build or the OP, i'm questioning how no one came up with this earlier... why has everyone blindly played 14 pool if 11 pool is just as strong?
EDIT: Just want to say, I'm SO trying this build since it sounds awesome. It looks extremely safe and PERFECT for 2v2, 3v3 etc since it gives you so much flexibility.
There are other similarities here. For example, 2 rax pressure builds were popular against zerg back when you could do low econ pressure by throwing down the barracks before depot, only later realizing 2 rax pressure is much stronger with a higher econ with depot first. Or how months after baneling busts were popularized, zergs started experimenting with high econ baneling play which are arguably more effective.
As for why it is that professional players haven't discovered simple early game ideas--korean pros still tend to 10 overlord or 10 overlord with extractor trick even though it's well documented for >10 pools that 9 overlord is the most economical. Or how after so much time, mineral boosting wasn't discovered by a pro in korea, but by a more casual player on team liquid. One reason for this is possibly that pros may be thinking "14 pool seems the best. if an earlier pool is more economical, someone else would have discovered it by now." Honestly I believe it's due to the zerg optimizer which gave the analytical tool to carefully examine the overpool (minerals mined, drone count, larvae numbers, etc.).
|
On December 03 2010 19:09 Geo.Rion wrote: i just canot believe this is the most economic pool first opening. It seems weak, i have to try but i have strong doubts.
ok, i watched a rep, the 4 gate. What level is this? Silver? The guy has energy maxed out on nexus before the warpgate finishes, he used like 3 chronoboosts in the entire game, 1 on the warp tech, 2 on the probes, could be 1. Also he had like 40 apm. He attacked at ~8:10, just FYI the 4 gates i'm dealing with come around 6th minute mark, had even at 5:30, 9th minutes is even late for 4 gate blinkstalker attack. So i have no idea if this build actually suffers from early agression so far. Gonna watch some more, really not impressed so far
The 6 minute 4-gate attacks are typically the 1-gas zealot/stalker only attacks. This player wanted some sentries, mostly to range against roaches. The timing of the 4 gate being slower doesn't mean the attack is weaker. Whether or not the play or micro was great I don't know, but normally with pool into hatch builds you can hold off the 4-gate with 2-5 spines, roaches, lings, and stalling for hydra tech. with an earlier pool, I imagine this would even be easier to deal with as your queen's out even earlier, with even more larvae to use (compared to say a 14 pool/15 hatch).
|
On December 03 2010 18:45 Tobberoth wrote: Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something? The reason the Extractor Trick 11 Pool came up in the first place was because of Evochamber.
I do like this build, as a Platinum player it gives me counters to cheeses but still lets me play my economic playstyle Tbh, it looks like a Standard build but it actually the most diverse build there is, because it is so open! Thanks @ OP
|
this shit got me scared yesterday when i played toss I overracted and walled myself with forge and pylon when he was droning LOL
|
On December 03 2010 22:01 Providence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 19:09 Geo.Rion wrote: i just canot believe this is the most economic pool first opening. It seems weak, i have to try but i have strong doubts.
ok, i watched a rep, the 4 gate. What level is this? Silver? The guy has energy maxed out on nexus before the warpgate finishes, he used like 3 chronoboosts in the entire game, 1 on the warp tech, 2 on the probes, could be 1. Also he had like 40 apm. He attacked at ~8:10, just FYI the 4 gates i'm dealing with come around 6th minute mark, had even at 5:30, 9th minutes is even late for 4 gate blinkstalker attack. So i have no idea if this build actually suffers from early agression so far. Gonna watch some more, really not impressed so far The 6 minute 4-gate attacks are typically the 1-gas zealot/stalker only attacks. This player wanted some sentries, mostly to range against roaches. The timing of the 4 gate being slower doesn't mean the attack is weaker. Whether or not the play or micro was great I don't know, but normally with pool into hatch builds you can hold off the 4-gate with 2-5 spines, roaches, lings, and stalling for hydra tech. with an earlier pool, I imagine this would even be easier to deal with as your queen's out even earlier, with even more larvae to use (compared to say a 14 pool/15 hatch).
On a map like metalopolis. This isn't happening. 6 minutes is awfully fast you don't have time to get both roaches and spine crawlers. The 4 gate with 1 gas is far more powerful, but far more "allin" since with sentries you can defend an expo against mass lings.
The OP tried to tell me that 11 pool is ahead in minerals over a 15 hatch 15 pool up to 4:30. To me this indicates some gross error because delaying drones to get an 11 pool, and losing a drone for 30 or so more seconds for the faster pool means it must necessarily be behind in minerals mined. Now it seems its not that big, there's no way it should be ahead until the first inject drones come, unless the 15 hat 15 pool is saving a lot of larva.
The reason the pros haven't found this is because they don't spend their day theorycrafting, they just play the game and hone their skills.
|
On December 03 2010 18:45 Tobberoth wrote: Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something?
I'm not familiar with the specifics how the 14 pool was settled on as the "best" pool first build was settled on, but I imagine that any experiments with a relatively early cutoff time would not allow for the 11 overpool build to catch up to the 14 pool in terms of economy.
Zerg economy is about managing larvae, minerals and supply. I know that the 9 OV was shown to be the "best" in an old thread where they measured economy shortly after making the overlord. A reasonable method to develop a build is to start with this "best" overlord timing, then find the "best" pool or hatch timing after that. So step by step, you can piece together a very good build order, with each step verified by some testing.
Recently, however, we've had a nice development with the build order optimizers. These run a large number number of simulated games, varying builds and testing their fitness according to a genetic algorithm. What's cool about this is that it doesn't work off of preconceived rules of thumb for builds, it can find these nice sweet spots. In this case, the lack of drone production while saving for the pool is folded into waiting for the 11/10 overlord to pop.
Will this build become standard? I guess we will have to see. It does have some compelling qualities, such as the ability to transition into either an aggressive 1 base build or strong economic 2 base build. I have some concern in that this build's economic strength lies in the ability to drone hard once the queen is out. If the opponent applies or feints early pressure, causing you to make units, then you slow yourself down in terms of catching up in economy. If you went with a later pool build, you should have more drones early on - even if you lose some drones in an attack those drones at least get some mining time in early on.
|
On December 03 2010 15:16 Terrifyer wrote: so, I'm not sure what to think of this build. Tried it at the ~2.4k level (which honestly doesnt mean much) and had my friend try a 4wg rush against me. I did win, and before I was having trouble with some blink warp gate rush builds on ladder, mostly because I am just a greedy zerg in general.
anyway, I noticed the late speed was sort of a bummer, but at the same time I FELT like i was further ahead economically because I was pumping drones pretty hard for a wee bit before the rush was coming.
anyway, after I win the game I watch the replay and notice my drone count was only around 20-21 before i started pumping the zlings, which is ridiculous for me, since I usually pump the zlings a bit later, around 26-27.
so, does the only reason why this build is "working" is because it makes you feel like you are droning harder than you actually were?
I mean, If i stopped producing at 20 drones with a 14 gas 13 pool build I could win just as easily, however in my head I would feel real bad about cutting drones so early, so I usually don't.
I don't know, just a thought.
I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong if you only have 20 drones when the 4gate push comes. I've always had a lot more, both with 14 hatch 15 pool and with 11 overpool 18 hatch. I'm not 2.4k though, so perhaps my opponents do delayed pushes.
With 15 hatch 14 pool I droned until ~31 supply before building an army. With 11 overpool I do exactly the same. This works very well for me, now more so than before, since I don't need to worry about cannons etc. I see no reason why you should stop droning earlier than you did before, unless you're doing something silly like building a far too early RW, spine crawlers, or many lings. (And even then, if you did the same for 15 hatch 14 pool, you shouldn't be behind now.)
If I know it'll be a 4WG push I only build 2 lings as the pool pops for scouting; the rest of the army starts building closer to the 6-minute mark. Spine crawlers are great here since they don't need larvae and they are good to stall the push slightly to reinforce units; my timings are usually fairly tight against 4WG so that my last line of defense is only spawning as his units move towards my base.
Hope that helps.
|
On December 03 2010 23:00 Slayer91 wrote: The OP tried to tell me that 11 pool is ahead in minerals over a 15 hatch 15 pool up to 4:30. To me this indicates some gross error because delaying drones to get an 11 pool, and losing a drone for 30 or so more seconds for the faster pool means it must necessarily be behind in minerals mined. Now it seems its not that big, there's no way it should be ahead until the first inject drones come, unless the 15 hat 15 pool is saving a lot of larva.
I think 15 hatch 15 pool IS saving a lot of larvae, I don't see how you could build 500 worth of minerals with only 1 drone in between without accumulating larvae. I agree that it is counter-intuitive for 11-pool to be ahead early on; I never compared builds at the 4:30 stage so I can't comment beyond what was already stated.
|
|
I`m not good, but I use this every game at this point. Everything the OP says is right, it`s flexible, good long term, and holds off most early pressure builds comfortably.
|
On December 03 2010 23:00 Slayer91 wrote:
The OP tried to tell me that 11 pool is ahead in minerals over a 15 hatch 15 pool up to 4:30. To me this indicates some gross error because delaying drones to get an 11 pool, and losing a drone for 30 or so more seconds for the faster pool means it must necessarily be behind in minerals mined. Now it seems its not that big, there's no way it should be ahead until the first inject drones come, unless the 15 hat 15 pool is saving a lot of larva.
The reason the pros haven't found this is because they don't spend their day theorycrafting, they just play the game and hone their skills.
Guys, please just open the replay, press the "I" button, and take a look. You've always been told early pool must delay drones, why not just take a look to see? From my experience watching these, I am ahead at 11 to 10 for a short bit, and then quickly catch-up and even surpass most of the time at 14 drones. Take a look at the replays and note I am often ahead in drones by 15+ supply.
It is simply a misconception that this build delays drones. For a few seconds, it does, but then quickly surpasses in drones. To be honest, it takes a hell of a lot more drone delay to put down a hatch at 15 supply than to put it down at 18 when you naturally have more minerals and can delay the less critical overlord.
It is a misconception that this build catches up due to earlier queen. It catches up before the queen even begins. Take a look, I am not making this up.
Also, this build did not come from Evo Chamber or any other program. Lomilar claimed he took the 7RR build and simply replaced roaches with drones and a hatch. I came up with the extractor trick and overlord timing myself after testing the build over and over trying to maximize economy. It makes sense intuitively since more time is spent near 11 supply waiting for the overlord and pool than other builds. Yes, I did test the double extractor trick, and it was behind. I don't think it is ever a good idea to double extract.
Regarding why this hasn't been discovered before, I think a lot of it has to do with it being an overpool build. Most people will test simply going 10pool because that seems more efficient than making an overlord and then building the pool. Clearly from testing the 10pool is a very inefficient build, so many people simply discarded it. Getting that 11th drone and the overlord first is the crucial difference in making this a viable economic build.
|
On December 02 2010 08:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: Submitted by Lomilar, modified by jdseemoreglass 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Pool (finishes @ 2:38) 16 Queen 18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:44) 17 Overlord 18 Overlord 21 Queen 28 Overlord 28 Maynard 7 drones 36 Overlord
[...]
So tell me what you think. Will you be trying this yourself on the ladder? Yes. I played some time around different 11-Overpool build. I use the same start (11-Overpool, 16-Queen) for a 7RR, but I will try this FE build in the ladder. I agree that the 11-Overpool generally offers a lot of flexibility.
|
On December 03 2010 23:39 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 08:20 jdseemoreglass wrote: Submitted by Lomilar, modified by jdseemoreglass 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Pool (finishes @ 2:38) 16 Queen 18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:44) 17 Overlord 18 Overlord 21 Queen 28 Overlord 28 Maynard 7 drones 36 Overlord
[...]
So tell me what you think. Will you be trying this yourself on the ladder? Yes. I played some time around different 11-Overpool build. I use the same start (11-Overpool, 16-Queen) for a 7RR, but I will try this FE build in the ladder. I agree that the 11-Overpool generally offers a lot of flexibility. The quite early Queen compensates most of the economic disadvantage while the 11-Overpool allowes early defense.
WHAT economic disadvantage? I am tired of this being repeated with absolutely nothing to back it up.
I have a replay with 11pool side by side with a 13 pool. I am ahead 11 to 9 at one point, ahead again at 14 to 13 through to the rest of the game. Take a look at minerals mined, at any point in the game you want. Everyone stop repeating and believing these things when I have shown them to be false.
|
On December 03 2010 23:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Guys, please just open the replay, press the "I" button, and take a look. You've always been told early pool must delay drones, why not just take a look to see? From my experience watching these, I am ahead at 11 to 10 for a short bit, and then quickly catch-up and even surpass most of the time at 14 drones. Take a look at the replays and note I am often ahead in drones by 15+ supply.
It is simply a misconception that this build delays drones. For a few seconds, it does, but then quickly surpasses in drones. To be honest, it takes a hell of a lot more drone delay to put down a hatch at 15 supply than to put it down at 18 when you naturally have more minerals and can delay the less critical overlord.
It is a misconception that this build catches up due to earlier queen. It catches up before the queen even finishes. Take a look, I am not making this up.
jd, until I see a new replay that you say does better with minerals, nothing you say about this build holds any weight with me.
A simple 13 pool 15 hatch beats the replay of this build you posted on the original thread it came from while only delaying the pool by 13 seconds. Also, every hatch first build I tested beat this build by at least 100 minerals. I posted replays for all of this for anyone to check earlier in this thread. This build just sets you back economically. The only reason people like it is because they feel comfy and safe having the pool sitting around doing nothing really early.
|
For everyone who says the OP must be wrong because you delay drones:
Keep in mind that you also get the 9th, 10th and 11th drone FASTER.
So by your logic this build must be economically ahead of 15h14p builds that delay those very drones.
|
|
|
|