On December 06 2010 02:24 icezar wrote: It is a very good build indeed. I did try to find flows but there are none. I am not using it only because i am afraid of hatch being blocked and i like the early creep from hatch first. I am using what i sow in most of FruitDealer`s games:
10 OV 13 scout 15 Hatch 14 Pool
I love to go MB Lair BN Spire with 3Q and lots of lings after base saturation.
While testing the 11Pool it is like 3 seconds behind at 9min mark so nothing.
lol I always wanna ask the hatch-first crowd what league they are in so I can understand how they aren't dying every game. Hatch first is a guaranteed loss against a properly executed 2rax or ling all-in. Against toss I'm not sure since I haven't tried in a while. Not to mention your opponent will go for a hatch block in 85% of games in diamond today, forcing you to go pool-first anyways... If hatch first was viable then I wouldn't even be looking at this 11pool build.
Versus a 2 rax You simple have to pull drones to combat his SCVs while your lings attack his marines. It is still very dangerous but its not that difficult. Your 2 queens finish very quickly and if you start a spine crawler asap at your natural its very easy. I have not yet had trouble holding off 2 rax pressure. (2100 Diamond)
The 2rax itself isn't a problem, but you can't get enough units out to defend 2rax pressure -> expand -> 5rax timing. Or you might, but then your economy is awful and they'll just sit in their base until you try to take a third.
On December 06 2010 02:39 ktimekiller wrote: I've done extensive testing on hatch first (without any proof on hand though)
From what I've tested, a cheese pool can be handled by drone micro and thus negligible
Beyond what is considered a Cheese pool, a 12 pool with 3 saved larva cannot sustain ling production to be a threat, and 6 lings can be handled by micro. a 13 pool with 3 saved larva can also be handled with queen + drone micro until two queens for ramp blocking which prevent any ling reinforcements going up the ramp after the first 8 lings. 14 pool is far too late and two queens will be able to sit on the ramp.
This is done on long distance with 14 hatch 14 pool. 15 hatch 15 pool is also possible (Machine/Idra ZvZ build), but I find it far riskier than 14/14
I guarantee you if I go 11Pool 18Hatch all-in and you go hatch first, I will win 100% of my games. But you're gonna have to take my word for this unless you want to try it out
Take a look at the two ZvZ replays. Both times my opponents went hatch-first they didn't even come close to defending my all-in. I honestly don't think it is possible to defend.
Bad representation of how you hatch first against a lingbane all in
You need to put 2 spine the moment hatch finishes, and add several more.
Based on that the distance in Blistering sands is equivalent to a long distance of metalopolis and lost temple, the first push in the replay would have come as two queens are blocking the ramp with 4 spines + 8 or more lings at the natural
You really think you can go hatch first and still get 4 spines, 8 lings, and 2 queens before my 11pool lings reach your base?
Based on the time of the replay vs time of how a 14 hatch 14 pool has two queens 2 spines and 8 lings? Yes
In the replay, the lings first hit at the 6 minute mark.
For a 14 hatch 14 pool build, by 5 minutes, you can have 2 queens blocking a ramp, with 2 spines, and 8 lings
From the testing I've done, the EARLIEST a 3 larva pooled 13 pool 6 lings hit the base is at 4.25 min mark. At this EXACT point, 2 spines are building, with 2 queens building, and with lings in production. It is common knowledge that 6 lings cannot hold against well microed drones
this build has been great i have been using for the last few days. my favorite part is that if you get proxy'd or some sort of cheese you can just delay till the pressure is gone and you will never loose to cheese due to the 11 pool. Since this is new to i have found lots of protoss's throwing down forges and walling in thinking there is a 10 pool coming, this usually gives me such a great lead aswell. Thanks for this build
On December 05 2010 20:12 GhostFall wrote: Okey dokey.
So I spent the last 2 days trying out and testing your builds.
Here are my impressions. 14 Hatch, 15 Pool is still more economical. It is however, very comparable. If you go Extractor before 18 Hatchery, you can get speed around the same time as Hatchery first builds with comparable economy. If you go Extractor before the first queen, you get speed early, but your economy is actually worse than typical builds. If you go extractor after 18 Hatchery, your speed is around 20 seconds later, with comparable economy to 14 Hatch 15 Pool
The reason this build works is because you take an economic hit with 11 pool to get an earlier queen, who makes it up with an earlier larvae inject. So you are behind until your first larvae inject finishes. However, when that first larvae inject finishes you pull ahead because of how much faster your larvae inject is compared to other builds. If you delay your first queen at all, you are behind.
Essentially if you were making a guide the build should be cut down to this 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Pool 16 Queen -----------------------Everything up to this point is completely inflexible. 18 Gas (optional but highly recommended) 18 Hatchery
How this has changed my matchups. ZvZ - heck yeah I'm changing to 11 pool -> queen. New standard in ZvZ for sure imo. ZvP - you are behind from the period your queen pops out and the 40 seconds afterwards. A 2 gate zealot rush comes before then. no creep near your natural, so no spine crawler, so easy ramp contain. If I know my opponent is going 2 gate zealot, I would not suggest using this. However, there is not enough time to scout this before a 11 pool, so a maybe overall. This build has a great time against 2 stalker rush, 4 gate, and other similiar openings however. ZvT - On paper yes definitely, but I'm holding off on saying always do this against terran because creep spread is so important in ZvT. So maybe as well, not due to economic reasons. The build has the most potential to be explored here.
I would also like to say to the OP, that while I am impressed overall with the build, you are doing a terrible job with this thread. Compared to kcdc PvT 1 Gate FE thread, you are ignoring valid questions and writing people off as trolls. kcdc was very correct when he said you are creating a hostile environment, and that is why you are facing such opposition. there are actually very few trolls in this entire thread. You continue to say how flexible this build is, and how everything looks great at the 5-6 minute mark. An economic 6 pool looks great at the 6 minute mark, so that doesn't answer anything. You post replays but you haven't really tried to understand or address one of the main issues other posters are having. If you decide or are forced to "be flexible" with this build, such as having to make early zerglings, having to take gas, having to get early lair, etc, how are you compared economically to the other already established builds if they also are in the same conditions. You have not answered that sufficiently at all, so we kind of have to assume that you're doing worse than the established builds. The burden of proof is on you, not us.
Anyway, to the others reading this post, I will say that in my experience this build works great with gas if you get it before the hatchery and after the queen, and I believe this build does have the potential to be a standard.
Are you sure he hasn't addressed the bulk of these points?
Unless you mean, he hasn't tested the build against other builds given other variables (like, if you gas steal, if you're forced to make lings, if you want to place a spine crawler early, etc etc). I'd agree with you; but I think these sorts of issues, we'll just have to play more to find out. We'd be introducing far too many variables to test, if we're trying to be scientific about it. Everyone would have slightly different results from doing the build differently, different opponents, etc, the results wouldn't be repeatable. Even with the simplified model we're working with now, people are still getting different results. With regards to this, we likely can only be approximate about it.
And when you say the 14 hatch, 15 pool (edit: corrected!) is more economical, I agree, and the OP would agree with you on this point also, as indicated in the thread linked. They are very comparable as you said, but with supposedly added flexibility/safety of an 11 pool.
That said, after testing the build out myself, I find that getting the extractor at 18 is about right to get ling speed in a reasonable amount of time. Agreed on the ZvZ, great build. Against P's and T's, I still prefer a 14 hatch, 15 pool whenever I can get away with it. Anyway enough talk, more play; see how it goes
On December 06 2010 04:40 flanksteak wrote: And when you say the 14 pool, 15 hatch is more economical, I agree, and the OP would agree with you on this point also, as indicated in the thread linked.
I'm assuming you meant to say 14hatch/15pool here? Cause if not, the OP wouldn't agree, and neither would I.
I'm looking for an alternative build to 14 hatch 15 pool against tosses that spawn in close positions. I think this would be good but I need to test it out against all sorts of builds. It does feel comfortable econmomically vs toss. Even when they FE.
On December 06 2010 02:39 ktimekiller wrote: I've done extensive testing on hatch first (without any proof on hand though)
From what I've tested, a cheese pool can be handled by drone micro and thus negligible
Beyond what is considered a Cheese pool, a 12 pool with 3 saved larva cannot sustain ling production to be a threat, and 6 lings can be handled by micro. a 13 pool with 3 saved larva can also be handled with queen + drone micro until two queens for ramp blocking which prevent any ling reinforcements going up the ramp after the first 8 lings. 14 pool is far too late and two queens will be able to sit on the ramp.
This is done on long distance with 14 hatch 14 pool. 15 hatch 15 pool is also possible (Machine/Idra ZvZ build), but I find it far riskier than 14/14
I guarantee you if I go 11Pool 18Hatch all-in and you go hatch first, I will win 100% of my games. But you're gonna have to take my word for this unless you want to try it out
Take a look at the two ZvZ replays. Both times my opponents went hatch-first they didn't even come close to defending my all-in. I honestly don't think it is possible to defend.
not trying to start a war or anything but i'd like to test it with you, i think hatch first is better.
As I said in a previous post, I think it is a little risky to put down the 18 Hatch if you are against a 1-base zerg. I have been trying to make it work however. It is certainly possible on maps that have a ramp that can be defended by a few roaches, allowing you to drone hard on two hatches.
I played this strat recently on the ladder, and it was fairly effective. Opponent opened speedling/baneling, which I held off with a few slowlings and roaches, and walled myself off. I am a very greedy zerg so I pumped tons of drones and took a slight risk against the coming mutas. Against fast mutas I like to distract them with a roach attack while I get spores and hydras in base.
Anyway, just wanted to provide some more food for thought. Here is the rep.
I've been having a lot of success with this build in general. I've won about 70% of my games since using it, and gained about 100 points on the diamond ladder. Hope you guys are having success as well.
On December 06 2010 02:39 ktimekiller wrote: I've done extensive testing on hatch first (without any proof on hand though)
From what I've tested, a cheese pool can be handled by drone micro and thus negligible
Beyond what is considered a Cheese pool, a 12 pool with 3 saved larva cannot sustain ling production to be a threat, and 6 lings can be handled by micro. a 13 pool with 3 saved larva can also be handled with queen + drone micro until two queens for ramp blocking which prevent any ling reinforcements going up the ramp after the first 8 lings. 14 pool is far too late and two queens will be able to sit on the ramp.
This is done on long distance with 14 hatch 14 pool. 15 hatch 15 pool is also possible (Machine/Idra ZvZ build), but I find it far riskier than 14/14
I guarantee you if I go 11Pool 18Hatch all-in and you go hatch first, I will win 100% of my games. But you're gonna have to take my word for this unless you want to try it out
Take a look at the two ZvZ replays. Both times my opponents went hatch-first they didn't even come close to defending my all-in. I honestly don't think it is possible to defend.
not trying to start a war or anything but i'd like to test it with you, i think hatch first is better.
AnAngryDingo 282 on NA
Sure. I will be busy today but maybe monday afternoon or evening we can practice.
On December 06 2010 04:40 flanksteak wrote: And when you say the 14 pool, 15 hatch is more economical, I agree, and the OP would agree with you on this point also, as indicated in the thread linked.
I'm assuming you meant to say 14hatch/15pool here? Cause if not, the OP wouldn't agree, and neither would I.
Woops, my bad. Yes that's what I meant, I've edited the post
On December 06 2010 02:24 icezar wrote: It is a very good build indeed. I did try to find flows but there are none. I am not using it only because i am afraid of hatch being blocked and i like the early creep from hatch first. I am using what i sow in most of FruitDealer`s games:
10 OV 13 scout 15 Hatch 14 Pool
I love to go MB Lair BN Spire with 3Q and lots of lings after base saturation.
While testing the 11Pool it is like 3 seconds behind at 9min mark so nothing.
lol I always wanna ask the hatch-first crowd what league they are in so I can understand how they aren't dying every game. Hatch first is a guaranteed loss against a properly executed 2rax or ling all-in. Against toss I'm not sure since I haven't tried in a while. Not to mention your opponent will go for a hatch block in 85% of games in diamond today, forcing you to go pool-first anyways... If hatch first was viable then I wouldn't even be looking at this 11pool build.
Versus a 2 rax You simple have to pull drones to combat his SCVs while your lings attack his marines. It is still very dangerous but its not that difficult. Your 2 queens finish very quickly and if you start a spine crawler asap at your natural its very easy. I have not yet had trouble holding off 2 rax pressure. (2100 Diamond)
The 2rax itself isn't a problem, but you can't get enough units out to defend 2rax pressure -> expand -> 5rax timing. Or you might, but then your economy is awful and they'll just sit in their base until you try to take a third.
what are you talking about defend 2 rax then expand? You have already expanded if you go 14 hatch which is what I was talking about.
14 hatch VS 2rax +scv pressure is not that difficult to hold off. And when the 5 rax gets to you, you should have spine crawlers and speedlings with bane speed on the way. Maybe other zergs need more practice dealing with 2rax scv pressure but I personally handle it without taking much if any economy lose usually. And then you can power drones for a good period of time. As long as your main is about saturated and you have both geysers and your expo has a decent amont of drones your economy is fine to handle it. You don't need that much gas to get ling speed/lair/bane speed and then banelings.
In fact facing 2 rax pressure I would prefer to have 14 hatched and not 18 hatched with 11 overpool. There is no danger of not being able to get your hatchery up and you have 2 queens and creep at your expo already.
On December 06 2010 02:02 MorsCerta wrote: I have been trying this build on and off as I see fit. I only have one replay in my recent games of it and I am pretty sure I screwed up the build order. I faced a protoss going 3gate expo but instead decided to just go all in.
The build seems to have some potential, I still prefer my hatch first versus T and 14 gas 13 pool v Z but versus protoss I think it could be very good. However the main issues with hatch first versus protoss was cannon contain and pylon block that issue is addressed next patch so I am not sure what the exact niche of this build will be.
2100 zerg
edit:
Also all of you are talking about using your first larvae injects etc. I use the earlier queen to spread creep while building another queen. Your economy isn't good enough to support constant injections that early in the game and I also value having creep between my bases and all over the map the earlier you start the better. I generally use the 1st 50 energy from my queen on 2 creep tumors and by this time my 2nd queen and 2nd hatchery is done and I then start injection both hatcheries and droning hard.
When I hatch first I use the first 25 energy from both queens on creep tumors, so it works out pretty evenly with what I normally do.
I have been doing 14h/14p a lot (not against z, and switched to 14p/16h against p) and I get my queens out at the same time, when doing this larvae inject w/ one and creap spread w/ the other and larvae spread w/ the one that did the tumor and vise versa. This evens out your larvae and still gives you the same creep abilities. As far as 14p 16h I would agree with making a tumor w/ first queen on its way to the nat and then using it again for a tumor at the nat while the main queen pukes. With the 11p/18h build I would use larvae first every time. The creep spread is nice but your scouting should tell you if he is going for a zealot rush (if he is on close positions consider replacing hatch w/ roach warren and trying to drone at same rate as P).
The problem with trying to create a build order around what the opponent is doing to the extreme is that your BO is going to be gimped. Try to get the most out of your build and then rely on your scouting, micro etc to bring you above your opponent. If you see 2 rax before gas then make lings after the 16 drone count and throw down 2 crawlers asap. While I don't have any replays atm to completely justify this response, I have played enough games w/ this build to say that you can always defend an early rush and still come out in the game.
On December 06 2010 02:24 icezar wrote: It is a very good build indeed. I did try to find flows but there are none. I am not using it only because i am afraid of hatch being blocked and i like the early creep from hatch first. I am using what i sow in most of FruitDealer`s games:
10 OV 13 scout 15 Hatch 14 Pool
I love to go MB Lair BN Spire with 3Q and lots of lings after base saturation.
While testing the 11Pool it is like 3 seconds behind at 9min mark so nothing.
lol I always wanna ask the hatch-first crowd what league they are in so I can understand how they aren't dying every game. Hatch first is a guaranteed loss against a properly executed 2rax or ling all-in. Against toss I'm not sure since I haven't tried in a while. Not to mention your opponent will go for a hatch block in 85% of games in diamond today, forcing you to go pool-first anyways... If hatch first was viable then I wouldn't even be looking at this 11pool build.
I don't know if I would say that it is always an auto loss. I think that after saturating your nat and losing the queen w/ drones it could be an auto loss. but if you know they are going for the 2 rax push w/ hatch first then you need to get 2 crawlers and start pumping lings. 2 queens, 2 crawlers and a stream of lings should defend 2 rax pushes adequately. Granted you will lose against 2 rax upwards of 50%+ (I don't know how much I lose to it, Prolly not 50% though).
This build is great. I tried it vs the high plat in my ladder. Having trouble vs P on Steppes, otherwise I've won every game. People that theorycraft should've keep their mouths shut, this is awesome. Thank you OP.
On December 06 2010 09:47 militantonZ wrote: This build is great. I tried it vs the high plat in my ladder. Having trouble vs P on Steppes, otherwise I've won every game. People that theorycraft should've keep their mouths shut, this is awesome. Thank you OP.
As some have pointed out, if you're in ridiculously close positions against toss or terran, you can always transition into a modified roach expand build or something
I hatch first every single game, and it might be that my opponents are just that much worse, but I rarely lose to 2 rax pressure. I have lost a couple games to mass lings, but a lot of times that's just poor spine crawler placement or I'm a little bit off on my timing with my build. Oh, I'm about 1800-1900 Diamond, I think.
I may not be executing the build properly, but I have a hell of a time defending that first wave of reactor hellions from someone doing a 1-1-1 or 1-1-2 build. Not having the extra creep at my natural makes it almost impossible to use queens and slow lings to defend. And I cannot get a crawler up fast enough at my natural so I can't even risk sending drones there and have to queen wall the ramp. Very frustrating...
Maybe someone has a replay of them doing better? I'm a 2100-2200d Zerg. Don't show replays of opponents who have sucky timing or poor micro... that isn't useful. That's like pretending you can hold a 2-rax simply because your opponent doesn't know how to micro and you kill him with a-move lings.
14 hatch VS 2rax +scv pressure is not that difficult to hold off.
You must be better than most of the zerg's in the GSL then...
or the terrans around 2100 don't marine/scv push as well as the terrans in the GSL?
or I am just better then 2100 (which I believe to be true since I have not plateaued at all) and I am better than the terrans I am facing.
I am sure there may be a point where 2 rax scv pressure gets more difficult but I have not yet lost to it. And considering I always 14 hatch provided cross positions or a good map I have faced quite a few of these pushes. I find it much more difficult to hold off the double bunker blocking ramp, which I believe is getting nerfed next patch along with pylon block.