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On December 07 2010 03:54 Volshok wrote:I can understand the frustration of viewers, especially foreign ones who tune in during odd hours to watch the games for entertainment. It's obnoxious to see an "unskilled" player beating a "better" player, especially when you were hoping for awesome matches. However, I agree with Chill's take on the issue, the desire to win at any cost should be the primary reason for playing games. Playing for showmanship isn't what we should be encouraging in a fledgling scene. The drive to win, and the results it produces should be the focus. If NesTea had acknowledged TSL_Rain's constant early aggressive play/all'ins and adapted his play style to them, the games would have been very different. For American's I'll liken the results to Football (not soccer, America football). In the old days, teams lined up with perception of "we'll go head to head, and may the best man win." As the sport naturally developed, teams began to scheme against specific players and try to shut them down. Quarterbacks need pressure applied to them to reduce their throwing potential, Defenses choke up to prevent runs, etc. While it limited the potential of certain favorite players of the time, it pushed the overall sport further along, evolving it into something greater. Now bring this back to Broodwar/gaming. Most teams have players who are MU specific "snipers." It's the job of the "more skilled" player to demonstrate the gap in their abilities and overcome whatever the threat is. Cheezing also isn't entirely indicative of a player's potential or skill set, and I would be careful about drawing preemptive conclusions. Remember when Flash cheezed our favorite players out of MSL/OSL? God what a scrub, kid had no skill and wasn't going anywhere. Go back and read the LR threads of those games, and compare them to this GSL match. Remember when a legendary rivalry series( BoxeR vs YellOw) was decided with Bunker rushes? What kind of scrub would do that? No respect for the game. Cheezing is a valid part of the game that adds an early dynamic, and shouldn't be restricted but embraced. If anything, the blame should be shifted to NesTea for failing to react to the obvious.
The differance is that BW T could equally fight an end game Z. In fact late game TvZ BW was insanely entertaining as it was such a blood bath style MU with battles occuring all over the map. Imagine you have your football team, but theres a problem. your guys are all the best players but they have no stamina and theres just a slight chance of you winning in the end game what are you going to do?
For people who are suggesting bigger maps.. cmon really? Lets let Z get end game every time that will fix the problem just about as much as blizzard releasing 10 second away distanced maps( I wonder who would benefit there)
The issue is balance, give T back their late game and nerf their early game. Once you fix that then apply bigger maps and we will see some epic TvZ.
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On December 07 2010 04:19 Jantix wrote: I can't believe this is even a conversation.
Its a big money paying tournament and people are complaining because players are trying to win instead of entertain?
WTF?????
As you noticed maybe - this thread immidiately switched to Zerg vs Terran balance issue. So, no big deal.. Of course, this is no brainer.. Rain shouldnt apologize for winning games, there is something wrong.
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On December 07 2010 04:17 dasanivan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.
I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity. right now carriers motherships and battlecruisers are what i want to look forward to in those "amazing drawn-out" rare games, not a macro game that frankly should be the norm. what you say about the WWE system is silly. it's simply a matter of fixing some mechanics of the game so that the "dirtiest games" are a little less banal than marines and scvs dancing around bunkers. we're not asking pro gamers to perform a play for us here. we're asking for some rules to change.
Some people are actually suggesting Rain shouldn't have done the all-ins even though that was his best chance to win. Asking for changes from Blizzard isn't unreasonable (even though I think it's too soon), but suggesting a player shouldn't use a certain strategy because they're considered 'lame' is laughable in any serious competition.
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I dont get it. Blizzard is sleeping or what? This is clear issue and they make no change in next patch other than lowering(wtf) bunker time?
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On December 07 2010 03:17 wassbix wrote: Just cause people paid 19.99 to watch games, it shouldn't mean a player should be pressured to play a unfavorable game for themselves. If he feels like his best chances of winning are early game allins, why wouldn't he do it?
It would either mean
A) Nestea was ill prepared for the cheese or B) Balance is off and that Nestea despite being prepared and the "better" player could not stop it
If the case is B then that means we shouldn't blame the player but instead blizzard for bad balance.
Seriously, its insane that we're getting angry at players for trying to win; this is their job, unlike BW pros, they don't have steady salaries and their only form of income is winning tournaments.
Agree here
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On December 07 2010 04:19 Jantix wrote: I can't believe this is even a conversation.
Its a big money paying tournament and people are complaining because players are trying to win instead of entertain?
WTF?????
what people are complaining about is that it turns out that you don't need to use 90% of the units in SC2 in order to win most games. props to players playing to win.
i'm kind of worried that people who are angry at Rain and people who are angry at people who are angry at Rain are missing the big picture here.
if kicking balls in boxing were legal people would do it. thank heavens it's not legal.
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Why should they complain about cheesy builds? sc1 had bunker rushs that yellow hated hehe. Zergs will learn how to adapt, no worries.
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On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.
I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity. This... In American Football and other sports all teams in the league are professionally coached and have some of the best players available... Are you going to see blowouts? Yes! Are you going to see lopsided games? Yes! Does that mean we should change the balance of the game to make the danger of all-ins and the adjustments that have to be made because of that disappear? I don't think so. Anything that restricts the number of options each player has in an RTS is bad for business.
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United States238 Posts
So I was looking through this, and one guy comments:
"Good thing [TSL_Rain's] the opponent wasn't idra."
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I agree.. bigger maps + nerf terran early and buff late. I think that would fix all match ups..
Anyway.. that was a dumb series lol.. but I dont blame rain. I hate cheese junk but even I wouldve done that 3 times in a row if I knew I had like 75%+ chance of winning with it. Even if that game was like a best of 11 and he did the same thing 6 times in a row I dont think nestea wouldve ever stopped it because he cant micro.
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decrease marine base speed so regular lings and drones can catch up and surround, problem solved, kthanksbye.
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On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote: I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat...
Thats actually a bullshit. Marine/SCV all in isn`t stoppable by 14 hatch and u have to go 14 hatch because pool first is even worse.
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Rain shouldn't have to apologise, but I really hope that zergs can find an answer to 2-rax play. It doesn't make for entertaining matches, and TvZ is becoming a frighteningly shallow matchup.
I know that if I was looking to win a TvZ, I'd be going 2-rax early pressure simply because it's potentially a huge payoff (instant win or serious damage) with very little risk and hardly any economic damage.
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As much as it pains me that players who are good at rallying marines and workers into a base and being able to kite win over people who are better at the rest of the freaking game, Rain did right. He found a weakness and exploited the hell out of it.
People should be blaming NesTea for not being able to counter cliche ladder cheese.
+ Show Spoiler [RO 16 day 1 spoiler] +I'll never forget how FruitDealer bent BitByBit.Prime over his knee and spanked him like the child he is for pulling marine+SCV rushes...
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On December 07 2010 04:24 strength wrote: Why should they complain about cheesy builds? sc1 had bunker rushs that yellow hated hehe. Zergs will learn how to adapt, no worries.
imagine a game where a set of strategies were so strong that nobody could learn to play against it. everyone would be using that strategy, right?
SC2 is kind of like that game.
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zerg really is biggest QQ race in this game, wish they realized how big advantage gives them larva inject and larva stacking that nobody actually wants to go to midgame on their tearms.
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This build is very strong against 14 hatch specifically. Zerg has no good way of dealing with early marine pressure until they get speed, banelings, roaches, spinecrawlers or some combination. 14 hatch essentially says "I want an economic lead right now" and it is a gamble. If zerg can hold off the initial pressure, then they take a huge lead right away economically. For zerg it's about balancing economics against pressure and riding the line. Right now, 14 hatch is riding the thinnest line possible. I really liked fruitdealers build better getting the early gas and pool. The only difference is that I would expand at 24 food instead of 1 base all-ining.
With the addition of spawn larvae and the faster economy of sc2, expanding is important, but possibly not as important as sc1 and in fact is riskier because of how quickly someone can create an army. I'm not saying that 14 hatch is wrong, but that sc2 is a different game and rushing for an early economic boom might just be too risky for all 3 races.
In scbw, you needed more hatcheries to make units (kinda like protoss and terran need production buildings), so the idea was, just make it at your expansion, however, with the addition of the queen to provide more production, it might be possible to delay getting that expansion up until you are in a more comfortable position. A queen is essentially half a hatchery by itself. Now of course chrono boost and mules didn't exist, but regardless zerg can still saturate faster than the other two races.
I really like the idea of 11 pool/18 hatch. 11 pool gets the queen out quickly to help with defense, helps with creep spread, provides extra production, and provides significant flexibility early without sacrificing any economy. If you are forced to pull drones off of minerals while defending you are essentially losing minerals. 12 drones off of minerals averages to 8 minerals per second. If you are pulled off for 15 in game seconds, then you lose 120 minerals + 50 minerals for each drone lost. The goal of defending should always be to defend with as little as possible while still maintaining a decent income. The other idea behind the late hatch is that if they do all in with marines and scvs, it takes longer to reach the base even if it is only 5-10 seconds longer, 5-10 seconds makes a huge difference. I think another important thing is the position of the scouting overlord. Ideally it should be in a spot to spot for an all in. Positioning near the workers is one possible location, or positioning right outside the ramp is another. It's not doable on all maps, but it should be considered.
And don't take anything i take too seriously please, i'm not a pro zerg player. These are just things I think about.
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Calgary25940 Posts
On December 07 2010 04:17 dasanivan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.
I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity. right now carriers motherships and battlecruisers are what i want to look forward to in those "amazing drawn-out" rare games, not a macro game that frankly should be the norm. what you say about the WWE system is silly. it's simply a matter of fixing some mechanics of the game so that the "dirtiest games" are a little less banal than marines and scvs dancing around bunkers. we're not asking pro gamers to perform a play for us here. we're asking for some rules to change. How is that silly? You brought up a point not even touched on by my comment and then called me silly for not saying it. I don't get it.
Also, I'd like the posters here to consider that the rules are fine and just need time to develop more. A lot of people are talking as if T early game is a freewin. It may be, but I'd like to have a little more time before I could say that definitively. People want the rules changed too easily...
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On December 07 2010 03:28 Maggeus wrote: I stand to my opinion when the match finished : going hatch first in every game on every map cost Nestea the game. 2 rax into 4 rax marines is absolutely unstoppable on some maps if you are going to hatch first, coupled with some SCVs.
As Artosis said, going all-in is something every pro do. But what's important is when you do it. Just like when JD goes fast pool against Flash to punish a 14 CC, Rain went for a 2 into 4 rax against a 14 hatch. What's so wrong with that ?
^ /agree
It's not a balance issue.. it's simple reaction. If your opponent expands you attack or copy. i think Nestea has more skill but he failed to react to his opponent.
Further, I don't think this cheapens the show/event. As a big sports fan, I know that I'm not always going to get nail-biting edge-of-the-seat action. I love it when I do, but as long as there's a clear cut winner (even if it's not the better competitor) I'm satisfied.
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There are 2 issues here.
1. Terran have easy access to abusive all in strats that we have seen showcased this whole season. They are very hard to stop and do not make for fun games to watch. Both protoss and zerg have no equilivant.
2. You cannot blame Rain for doing what is needed to win the games. The point of this tourney is to win. He did what he needed to to win and I do not blame him for it. (Just like I dont blame the All-ins against ret). He would be selling himself short if he didnt do everything in his power to win.
TLDR: The point of GSL is to win - doesn't matter how.
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