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On December 07 2010 04:50 Sm3agol wrote: What i fail to understand is why zerg consistently fail to prepare for all-ins like this when they KNOW it's coming. They go 14 hatch and........start droning up preparing for the late game half the time? Seriously? I see this in streams and replays ALL the time. 14 hatch against T should go like this. Drone up, get hatch. Have second queen for second hatch ready to go. Spam your produce zergling key for every single larvae you have for the next minute. You know its farking coming, so act like you have map hacks. Its not like Ts can see exactly what you are doing. Now obviously I'm not top diamond, so I can't say I know the exact timings on all this, but it can't be that off. I see streams ALL the time of people losing to this crap with their nat almost saturated, they have gas almost up and everything. Not a spine crawler or mass zergling group in sight. QUIT DRONING UP YOU FARKING IDIOTS. If he marines scv all-ins you, and you have 25 zerglings, you win. If he doesn't, you're still up a base, just drone up from there, your zerglings don't evaporate if the push doesn't come. cut at 15 drones build 24 zerglings fail vs 2rax into cc
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GG rain. Did what he had to do to win, but his apology shows that he still has a sense of perspective on the e-sports scene. I hope he doesn't feel to bad about today. Sorry for Nestea too, he's gotta struggle with a loss like that
I hope this strat continues to be exploited to its fullest until either zergs/protoss adapt, or it is determined that they can't (and I don't care what you say, that is not yet the case), and Blizz step in.
I honestly don't think marine nerf is the way though. As they are they're possibly the most `awesome' (in the literal sense) and skillful unit in the game when used properly, and that to me is a pretty glaring tell on the state of the game.
Don't neuter the game any more yo, fix it. All that said I still enjoy 90% of games in the GSL.
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On December 07 2010 03:12 50bani wrote: I stand by my opinion: TSLrain played it correctly if he was playing to win. You have to play tvz like that, macro games get you nowhere as Terran
This is the problem. Every race should feel like they stand an equal chance against other races in a heavy macro game. Whether or not this is the case, I don't know as I only play Zerg.
It would appear though that Terrans feel like they can't win in a late game macro battle against Zerg. If terrans really are unable to compete with Zergs in a macro game I think Blizzard should adjust some things to fix this.
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On December 07 2010 04:30 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote: I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat... Actually it is quite impossible to beat since u have to go 14 hatch and 14 hatch is an auto-lose vs scv/marine all in as we saw on steppes of war. well see here's the thing.
You don't HAVE to go hatch first. I repeat, you do not HAVE to hatch first. Hatch first is a build designed to give an edge over the opponent right away. If he leaves you alone he is behind, period. Pool first into Hatchery is a lot safer but doesn't give you that edge straight away.
I would also like to state the record that most zergs nowadays don't scout with a drone if they go hatch first or plan to. If you send in an overlord in one direction and a drone at 9 in the other, you will scout both the bases in roughly the same time, leaving only the far away cross-position base unscouted. This gives you a 66% chance of scouting what he is doing for only a couple of minerals lost.
I am absolutely baffled when I watch progamers not scouting with a drone when they go hatchery first. Its like the riskiest opening you can open up with but they still believe that the 100 mineral over 2 minutes gained by keeping the drone mining is better than scouting that proxy barracks/forge first sooner which will completely destroy hatch first builds.
I can't fanthom why zergs nowadays think you have to hatch first. Infact, since most of the terrans go for aggressive economy punishing builds, its an advantage if you go pool first since you can hold off the aggression more easily.
For the record, I'm around 1800 diamond zerg ( not like it matters ) who goes pool first vs terran and dronescout on 9, and I still win a lot of my games.
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Sm3agol it's people like you that wanna make me scream sometimes.
Too bad that we "farking idiots" don't just get up both our Queens, have enough drones and then spam zerglings.
Yeah that's too bad. Perhaps because these rushes hit 5 secs after your 14 hatch finished my ass.
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On December 07 2010 03:12 50bani wrote: I stand by my opinion: TSLrain played it correctly if he was playing to win. You have to play tvz like that, macro games get you nowhere as Terran
Yeah well that was the OP's point though I assume. I think that the game is in a bit of unfortunate state at the moment in TvZ. But just because it seems this way now doesn't mean it will continue to be even without balance changes. But changes in the patch on the test realm may help improve terran mid-late game without the ability to fungal dropships and especially vikings.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
hate the game not the playa
and LOL at posting a public apology about that. what a bitch.
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for people complaining about the "value" received... I've received much better entertainment from this GSL than I've received from some $45 UFC fights. There's no guarantee of what you'll get each round.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
As much as I hate cheese.
You can't blame the guy for winning any single way he can when there is money on the line.
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On December 07 2010 04:53 Xde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:12 50bani wrote: I stand by my opinion: TSLrain played it correctly if he was playing to win. You have to play tvz like that, macro games get you nowhere as Terran This is the problem. Every race should feel like they stand an equal chance against other races in a heavy macro game. Whether or not this is the case, I don't know as I only play Zerg. It would appear though that Terrans feel like they can't win in a late game macro battle against Zerg. If terrans really are unable to compete with Zergs in a macro game I think Blizzard should adjust some things to fix this.
i'm actually beginning to think that terran macro isn't the problem so much as the fact that there's no incentive to practice it. even if terran macro were strong enough so that the chance of winning in lategame was always 60%, players would practice early game strategies that would increase the chance of winning to 61%.
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On December 07 2010 04:30 dolpiff wrote: could the solution be as simple as -1 range on marines? Yeah, along with a nerf to zerg macro that sounds fine.
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On December 07 2010 04:54 Rekrul wrote: hate the game not the playa
and LOL at posting a public apology about that. what a bitch.
Yeah I think the apology is a pretty big mistake. Much better to just remain silent about it. He even started to apologize in his interview post game, saying that he wanted to play macro games but due to a reason he couldn't disclose he couldn't practice much.
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As much as I don't like to say it,
IdrA said something very correct about this, when talking about Huk's mothership strategy being utterly stupid and unprofessional.
A progamer's main duty is to win. Period. This means: Whatever means necessary - putting on a show is only a secondary point, if at ALL.
Also, if NesTea lost to all those, it's absolutely his fault. They can't change the GAME/BALANCE halfway through the GSL, and the players have to use what they have. And plus, it's not saying that 2rax/4rax is invincible; there are counters, and NesTea FAILED to counter. He's not some GOD of progaming, he's freaking ZergBong, this guy was mediocre (at best) at BW but good at SC2, but he's not PERFECT. He made mistakes falling to simple strategies like that.
For those still angry at Rain, BW can give you some help: This is just like Shine beating Bisu (repeatedly through "cheesy all-ins") and thus everyone MASSACRING Shine on the forums (TL as well). Fact is, though, BW is possibly the most balanced game we have, and Bisu lost fair and square all those times through his own mistakes of not being able to respond to those cheesy moves. If those strategies were invincible, every single player in the world would do ONLY those moves and constantly win.
Point is!!! Don't hate the player or the game (lol). The game is what it is now, it's up to Blizzard to patch it before GSL4. The players made the best of what they had, and their goal is to WIN. No one is paid to lose spectacularly, and if they were, that would be match fixing. Give Rain a break, there is NO FAULT in his actions. He won without cheatcodes, he won with what was given to him. Him apologizing is ridiculous and unfair. He should literally TAKE BACK that APOLOGY; this sets a bad precedent for everyone in progaming.
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If he plays standard he has like 1% chance of beating nestea, I knew he would cheese and nestea should have known too and hence should be more than prepared, especially since he kicked out genius by cheesing. (still want to beat his brains out for that)
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On December 07 2010 04:49 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 04:41 Sanguinarius wrote:On December 07 2010 04:34 selboN wrote:On December 07 2010 04:30 dolpiff wrote: could the solution be as simple as -1 range on marines? Marines would be stalker bait o.o A better solution is to add a fireing delay or cooldown. The problem currently is they attack instantly and then can be micro moved away. Prevent movement for 1/4-1/2 of their firing time (like give them an actual animation you cant stop). This will prevent abusive marine micro (which is the early game problem) but not effect the ball of units late game. I think a 0.05 - 0.10 second animation delay before firing would fix the infinite kiting problem, but might bring up some other problems like being unable to kite banelings, but could be fixed by simply spreading the marines. Marines are such a vital part of the core balance of the game though.
I know, marines are so core that you have to be really careful with anything you change. But I think that short anamation will go along way in helping early game where there are just a few marines around.
Its kind of like the exact opposite of what they did in D3 - they showed a video about how changing just 1 variable (the time between the mob stopping and the attack connecting) made it alot more viable.
I think with tinkering, something similar can be done with the marine.
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The number of people who keep thinking zergs going 14-hatch are being "greedy" is fucking absurd. They are not opening 3 hatch before pool, they're opening hatch first because if they don't it leads to one of the following:
A: Zerg 1 base play is scouted by 1 scv or 1 scan and easily countered. B: A slightly delayed push with more marines/scvs. B: Terran contain at the ramp. C: Terran Expansion that gives him a huge econ advantage.
The only way opening a slower hatch is effective is if your opponent is an idiot and pushes too soon, despite it being obvious you're on one base.
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I don't know why people feel all-ins are boring to watch. Gets my adrenaline going like nothing else. Congrats to Rain for exploiting Nestea's weakness early early game which we have already seen before in his series' vs. Foxer and Maka, etc.
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I don't think its Rain's fault at all. Koreans just have to stop hatching first all the time. It's even proven that you don't really get much of an econ advantage as long as you get your 2nd hatch up before your minerals saturated and queens with inject larva gives you way more than enough larva before the 2nd hatch is up.
I mean, what's "cheesier", an all-in or a build that isn't even safe?
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On December 07 2010 04:59 Wings wrote: Also, if NesTea lost to all those, it's absolutely his fault. They can't change the GAME/BALANCE halfway through the GSL, and the players have to use what they have.
Not saying I disagree with your point, but they've done it before. They introduced a path mid-late into GSL1.
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would he have apologized if he had lost after showing such bad games? or are people only upset because nestea lost?
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