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On December 07 2010 05:24 eggs wrote:
He's not apologising about exploiting td you don't see the San Antonio Spurs apologizing for being absolutely boring to watch yet winning. it's a competition, winning is the only thing people should care about.
You do see MMA fighters apologizing (to fans) for not putting on exciting fights...
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I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
And ultimately Rain did what he felt would give the best chance of winning, which happens to be the only reason why he is there. To win. It sucks that this has to translate into cheese that has allowed someone who is widely regarded as a lesser player to win over a better one.
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The problem i see is that we just had a worse player winning. + The player who said that he didn't even have time to practice, so he just did this. + NesTea knew what was coming.
That is a clear balance problem in my eyes. If you are a better player that is constantly practicing vs the cheese build that you KNOW that is coming. You should not lose. Thats just it. Not discussion about it.
Whether late game ZvT is imbalanced towards zerg, or it's just that T refuse to practice macro games as much as Zerg , when they have so much safer and easier time in early game is another question. And That SHOULD be addressed after some nerfs to marine/scv all ins.
I am all FOR keeping cheese/rushes/all ins in the game, but it should not be so easy/effective to do even when scouted and prepared for.
P.S I don't know why are ppl still getting impressed with marine micro. (not counting micro vs banelings)
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On December 07 2010 05:20 University wrote: It's absurd to blame professional gamers for using boring, successful strategies. They are not here to entertain us, nor are they here to promote SC2 with exciting games. They are not here to have fun. They are not here to experiment with macro.
They are here to win, because they have given up hours of their lives, much of their emotional energy, and maybe even some of their relationships in order to support themselves. This is their livelihood. It's not like they get paid handsome salaries whether they win or lose, a la NBA or the MLB. These guys HAVE to win to continue. Put yourself in their shoes for one instant and you can see that so clearly. I have no idea what some of you people are thinking blaming the players. It is absurd and completely unsympathetic to them.
i think one of the reasons people are angry is because the investment into SC2 as a spectator sport was based on expectations that it would be fun to watch. unfortunately as chance would have it right now many of the games are not fun to watch.
of course, there is no reason in blaming the players whatsoever, since we didn't ask them to perform a play for us.
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Since when do zerg deserve to have a 14 hatch. As if fast expanding with no defenses has no drawbacks
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On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch.
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Nobody seemed to care much when he did it versus protoss players in previous rounds.
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i wouldn't call nestea the better player if he thinks he could and ended up failing to stop an all in with hatch first 3 times. i wouldn't even be crying imba because all nestea did was try to hatch first every game and didn't even try to mix it up a bit
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On December 07 2010 03:12 50bani wrote: I stand by my opinion: TSLrain played it correctly if he was playing to win. You have to play tvz like that, macro games get you nowhere as Terran
im so sick of hearing this from terran noobs.
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On December 07 2010 05:28 Gotmog wrote: The problem i see is that we just had a worse player winning. + The player who said that he didn't even have time to practice, so he just did this. + NesTea knew what was coming.
That is a clear balance problem in my eyes. If you are a better player that is constantly practicing vs the cheese build that you KNOW that is coming. You should not lose. Thats just it. Not discussion about it.
By that reasoning, then it's NesTea's fault for losing, not balance. Especially when you factor in things like him making a Queen instead of a Spinecrawler.
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It doesn't make him the worse player, but NesTea absolutely deserved to lose that series. He just kept on being greedy, and he lost every time he was too greedy.
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What are the odds of a T winning vs Z in a late macro game? Its not that we dont practice it, trust me. We do... And we get sad results 80% of the time.
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On December 07 2010 05:24 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:20 kuroshiro wrote:On December 07 2010 04:54 Rekrul wrote: hate the game not the playa
and LOL at posting a public apology about that. what a bitch. He's not apologising about exploiting the game. He's apologising about not practicing and not being able to show the audience what he's capable of. There's a difference. Some people care about their fans and the fans of other professionals in the sport. you don't see the San Antonio Spurs apologizing for being absolutely boring to watch yet winning. it's a competition, winning is the only thing people should care about.
What? Where do you go about telling people (whether they are spectators or players), what they should care about?
I'm not saying you shouldn't play to win (read my posts carefully), and Rain clearly does play to win. I'm saying he cares about his fans and his career and his image because... uh... shit, cause people care about those things.
I don't know about San Antonio Spurs but Allardyce at Newcastle, Megson at Bolton, even Dunga at Brazil all got fired for not playing the style of football that the fans wanted to see; despite decent results. Maybe it's a culture thing, I dunno, but I don't think you're a `bitch' for looking after your career.
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On December 07 2010 05:33 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:28 Gotmog wrote: The problem i see is that we just had a worse player winning. + The player who said that he didn't even have time to practice, so he just did this. + NesTea knew what was coming.
That is a clear balance problem in my eyes. If you are a better player that is constantly practicing vs the cheese build that you KNOW that is coming. You should not lose. Thats just it. Not discussion about it. By that reasoning, then it's NesTea's fault for losing, not balance. Especially when you factor in things like him making a Queen instead of a Spinecrawler.
No, you probably didn't understand my reasoning.
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Seriously, I still find it worthy to pay the amount even though its an allin winning match. Instead of blaming Rain so much, why don't NesTea go for a different strategy instead of spawning queen all of the time when he sees what Rain is doing? More Spine crawlers and buy some time with his drones or something.
I'm not a pro but I still find it interesting to watch that. Allins or not, it's still a win. Cheesy or not, Rain is already in the semi.
P/s: just my personal opinion.. don't have to overreact and flame me.
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On December 07 2010 05:27 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:23 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On December 07 2010 05:20 Everlong wrote:On December 07 2010 05:16 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On December 07 2010 05:12 resilve wrote: I HATE watching repeated, boring, 'unfair' short games from TvZ - but if its the terran's best shot at winning, how can you not expect them to use that card?
Clearly the feel they cant compete past midgame with zerg, especially not with an econ beast zerg.
This is why I dont understand the bunker change, it just promotes this metagame :< This is the line of thinking that avilo just wants people to believe. "Clearly the feel they cant compete past midgame".... is simply complaining without merit. Honestly, how many top quality players have you seen go late game TvZ to actually analyze the matchup? This is the line of thinking I swear most terrans are using when they complain: Late game is hard. More decisions to make and lots of units to control. Early game is ridiculously easy. Therefore, late game favors zerg so I must end it early. I'm not saying Z isn't favored in the late game. I honestly don't know. I don't think anybody does right now. It has a feeling that zerg might be favored, but given how few quality games and players we see past the 10 minute mark in a tvz, it's not even remotely a closed case. But the argument that if it was any good to play to late game vs Zerg then more players would actually do it? I think this is a pretty strong argument.. You can argument like Idra, that this early game rax pressure is so strong, that there is no reason to avoid it.. But then again, why all Terran can come up with is cheese/all-in patch after patch? Is this race fucking doomed to play first 10 minutes and then give up? Why let the game go long when you can literally end it in less than 10 minutes with an insanely high win rate? Terran for the longest time have had no reason to go to late game with zerg. They've been doing abusive strategies on 1 or 2 base since the beta. I'm not faulting the Terrans for trying to win, but they're constantly changing and adapting and I don't think a single strat has actually focused on a late game. You are absolutely right and I agree with you.. My only question is, why there isnt a single strat that actually focused on a late game? Is it because every singe time there is a new all-in/cheese strat that means "ez mode" for Terrans? Do you really think that those pro players that are paid for results concider nothing more than 5 min all-in?
Easier to pull off and exceptionally powerful. Remember that a lot of players (all, actually) aren't playing this game close to perfectly yet. Because of that, that means there is a lot of inferior players having to play their betters. That means they have to take any advantage they have and extend it... in this case early game micro and massive amounts of aggression.
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Don't worry though, if all the changes in the PTR-patch make it, we won't be seeing any bunker rushes anymore. + Show Spoiler +Obvious sarcasm, and I am aware of the reason Blizzard lowered build time on bunkers, don't bring that discussion to this thread
Anyways, I agree with the OP, from a consumer/spectators point of view it was very unsatisfactory but Rain shouldn't be the target for hate.
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Wow, this is fucked-up as hell. The whole point is that he apologised for winning just because Korean Community doesn't like short/All-in games. So "smart"...
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On December 07 2010 03:17 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:16 Lumin wrote: The way the current meta-game is set, Top Zergs are rarely ever beaten if allowed to push and macro into late game. Their weakness is early game, everyone knows this general concept.
All the guy wanted to do was to capitalize on that weakness. Do I blame him? Nope! Like 50bani said above me, he's playing to win. IMNestea didn't have to 15 Hatch every game, greedy build, he gets punished! How is this meta-game at all? Using the word "game" makes 999999x more sense here, there's nothing meta about "this strategy is good at this point in this matchup". NOTHING.
Actually metagame is important since this rush is strongest against 14/15 hatch. He knows that he is going to 14\15 hatch based on information "outside" the game. He knows how nestea plays and is hard countering his play. I play zerg, and if you are going to 14/15 hatch every single game against a terran who has proven over and over he will just all-in, maybe it's time for a speedling expand.
More on the topic. His baneling micro was horrendous each of the games, he just kept saccing them into tanks/marauders what have you that isn't marines. He always got 2 queens when he knew the rush was coming, and didn't bother to bring both down the ramp either. The better option is to get 1 queen at the natural and a spine crawler. He was being greedy, and rain's strategy choice hard countered him.
Not only that, but he fast expo'ed on steppes. He fast expoed on Lost Temple (and the only reason he didn't get absolutely stomped early on was because rain gave him chances in how he played early). Why is this seen as something viable to the top zergs? Is there REALLY a huge economic disadvantage in the mid game from saving your expansion for a few seconds later?
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On December 07 2010 05:30 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch. Where did Jinro talk about this? I am interested in reading.
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