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On December 07 2010 05:50 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:43 PanzerKing wrote: People keep saying that you have to 14 hatch to have a chance against Terran, but Julyzerg doesn't feel that way. Why is nobody looking to him for ideas on ZvT? People are making the argument that 14 Hatch is safest against 2 Rax. JulyZerg isn't the best example since he faced only 1 Terran in the GSL. aLivefoU in the Ro32. And he went 12 Rax 13 Refinery.
The point is that July went pool first before scouting T, afaik, so he obviously feels its the better opening regardless of what T does. That merits consideration, imo.
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Blaming rain for trying to win by any cost ist the dumbest thing I ever read ( ok not THE dumbest ). It's his job too try everything neccesairy to win. Blame the balance, the maps or even the races but don't blame the player.
I also want to point out that this scv's all-ins are possible too stop. They sure are hard to defend, but nestea did also mistakes which costed him the match
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On December 07 2010 05:55 dfgman wrote: If all the fans see are 5 min games that are uninteresting, then they're not going to watch it. The tourny's prize comes from its advertising and ticket sales. If the fans don't support it, the thing collapses. I doubt they'd care about that when all they're probably thinking about is "Got a chance to win 90k this season. I could care less if next season doesn't happen. I'm gonna try and win this season's prize."
Hell, I'm pretty sure none of that runs through their heads. The only thing that might faze them would be "How would I be perceived by fans and peers?"
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On December 07 2010 05:30 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch.
How does that make any sense at all? That's like saying you can't stop a roach rush unless you 1rax reaper FE...
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If Nestea can't beat cheese/all-ins, he doesn't deserve to take the win. Only the results matter, not the way to achieve said results. If there is someone to blame it's Nestea for not being prepared or good enough to beat these strats. I mean, if Rain can get away with easy wins, good for him. It's not Rain who needs to change his strategy obviously...why fix something that ain't broken.
My 2 cents.
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On December 07 2010 06:00 GoSu] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:30 Gotmog wrote:On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch. How does that make any sense at all? That's like saying you can't stop a roach rush unless you 1rax reaper FE...
The difference be, you get more larva going into combat units with an addtionnal hatchery, Fe for zerg is the same as adding productions facilities for the other races.
Edit : let's not forget about the ramp choke and the creep advantage.
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Blah! All this talk about TvZ impossible for Terran in the late game. Just look at Jinro, he's awesome at it and he's doing very well in the GSL.
Early game is too dramatic over all IMO. That combined with the non-downvoting system in the GSL makes for a lot of boring, repetitive 2rax cheese. And I feel like even if the Zerg defends it well, he is still behind.
I agree with the previous poster who said that if you spot a cheesy all in the early stages of the build, then the favorable spot should go to the player who is not going all in. To my knowledge, hatch first is the only reasonable way to play as Zerg, any other builds has to do huge economical damage or you are way behind.
Apart from the few awesome MACRO TvZ's(Jinro, Clide), the GSL has been a very disappointing all in cheese fest.
Let's hope Blizzard realizes how boring this is to watch.
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On December 07 2010 06:00 GoSu] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:30 Gotmog wrote:On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch. How does that make any sense at all? That's like saying you can't stop a roach rush unless you 1rax reaper FE... Thats because you probably don't quite understand how zerg works.
How and Where will you plant that sunken ? How will you transfer your queen ? How will you get creep speed bonus for a slightly easier chase with lings. How will you stop bunker wall in. Where will you get your economy from when T has mules and non stop scv production ? Where will you get your production from ?
Probably some other things that i am missing.
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On December 07 2010 06:00 GoSu] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:30 Gotmog wrote:On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch. How does that make any sense at all? That's like saying you can't stop a roach rush unless you 1rax reaper FE...
I think the point they're trying to make is that you need the extra larvae from a quick hatch and the drones at your nat instead of your main, so they can be pulled when needed, as well as greater creep spread at the nat. However, as I said before, Julyzerg obviously feels that pool first is smarter in TvZ, and he's the most accomplished SC1 Zerg to have switched over to SC2.
On December 07 2010 06:04 Dudemeister wrote: Blah! All this talk about TvZ impossible for Terran in the late game. Just look at Jinro, he's awesome at it and he's doing very well in the GSL.
Jinro will have to take down a top-tier Z like Nestea, Fruitdealer, Leenock etc., before most people will put faith in his style. Like it or not, Moon is a second-tier Zerg right now, since he only plays SC2 part-time.
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Yes he should apologize for doing a build that his opponent didn't know how to stop, despite it being the most popular Terran build in the GSL so far.
It it cheesy, it is stupid, and it is also very stoppable. Sure he won't get far in his pro career by doing only abusive cheesy builds, but he sure got far in this GSL doing it = cash moneys.
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Apologizing maintains good PR for the fans who were disappointed/upset that he won all 3 games with all-in, but like most people I don't think he did anything wrong. In games where he wasn't very aggressive to Nestea's hatch opening he would lose, so he quickly learned from that and won with 3 all-ins. If my opponent did the same openings 5 times in a row and I had a strategy that would counter it every single time, I would probably use it too.
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All I ask rain is to make the transition that foxer did from ro64 gsl 2 onward. Which means he just takes me by surprise and shows he is indeed worthy of gsl caliber play
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On December 07 2010 05:55 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:50 dabom88 wrote:On December 07 2010 05:43 PanzerKing wrote: People keep saying that you have to 14 hatch to have a chance against Terran, but Julyzerg doesn't feel that way. Why is nobody looking to him for ideas on ZvT? People are making the argument that 14 Hatch is safest against 2 Rax. JulyZerg isn't the best example since he faced only 1 Terran in the GSL. aLivefoU in the Ro32. And he went 12 Rax 13 Refinery. The point is that July went pool first before scouting T, afaik, so he obviously feels its the better opening regardless of what T does. That merits consideration, imo.
It's something to consider, but not something you could use in the current argument that people are making that "2-Rax does even better against anything that isn't 14 Hatch" until you see how successful JulyZerg's build does vs. 2 Rax.
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hatch first might just turn out to be a nonviable strat
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How bout this? Lets not build bunkers against 4gate cause bunkers aren't economical.
How bout we use nothing but MULES and never scan DTs/Banshees in our base cause scanning isn't economical.
How bout we build nothing but marines against banelings, cause thats economical......... oh wait.
Seriously, zergs these days act like they're playing Farmville or "no rush 15 min" games.
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The dude is a cheesy bastard, and he won the series fair and square.
Why is this an issue?
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The Zergs are to blame for this. Hatch before pool on Steppes. Why?
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On December 07 2010 05:30 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 05:28 SpectreSOF wrote: I seem to recall a time when pool before hatchery was viable. And this was way back when early reapers or hellions were good. Now that they're nerfed somehow pool first became unviable?
As much as I hate cheese I feel like most of the people in this thread missed the real point the Nestea vs Rain matchup showed; that 2 rax all-in > 14 hatch. As soon as Z realizes that there isn't a "2 hatcheries required" line in the spawning pool tab and stops being stubborn about their build order and being to come up with new BOs then I'm sure a perfectly acceptable solution will be found to end this cheesy nonsense.
You are DEAD wrong. And i hope ppl will start reading what Idra/Ret/Jinro are saying all the time. You CAN'T stop marine/scv all in without 14 hatch.
Maybe it is the case, maybe its not. If Nestea had done something other than 14 hatch and done it competently and still failed to hold off the all-in then we could legitimately start talking about whether or not blizzard should step in and start using "can't" in all caps. But we'll never know now in the GSL3s because Nestea 14 hatched himself out of the tournament without even bothering trying something new.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the 2 rax mass marine play was used by Foxer in GSL2 for the exact purpose of exploiting the 14 hatch build. It's original and primary function is to defeat that build order. Its obviously evolved a bit more since but the fact remains 14 hatch is the 2 rax's preferred target. Is the concept of one build order designed to defeat another and working really a new mind-shattering concept?
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Here's what I don't think most people seem to understand: A competitive real-time strategy game could theoretically be perfect out of the box and it would still not be balanced. Why? Because the player base doesn't understand the game well enough and doesn't play it well enough to execute that full range of optimal strategies. Even right now, they don't. Because in three months, it's very possible Zergs may be looking back on this era of immediate-all-in play and laughing at what they discovered to beat it.
How long did it take for Brood War to find its niche? About four years. How long did it take Warcraft III to find its niche? About four years. I completely expect that Starcraft II will take about the same time. That's why I'm a bit confused by the reaction to the recent GSL games. Everybody should have known this was going to happen. There's going to be a lot of growing pains. Think everybody should go ahead and come to terms with that right now.
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I don't understand why people rage over all these "cheese", sure, losing to an scv all-in is not very fun but we talking $80k+ on the line here, if you were in Rain's shoes what would you do?
Play honorably and take it to a macro game where the chance of you losing is pretty high? Or play a shorter game relying either on scv all-ins or quick rushes?
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