Koreans React to GSL Ro8 - Page 27
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Stuv
Netherlands942 Posts
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pirates
United States701 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:53 Stuv wrote: Altough I wholeheartly agree that early game T is a bit OP. Im a bit annoyed by Z expecting hatch first always to work. Its been proven to fail against early presure T's. So do a more safe build like July's build, he didnt have trouble early game. July's build isn't 'safer' because he never got 2 raxd. Pool first isn't safer than Hatch first vs 2 rax. | ||
ShadowWolf
United States197 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:42 Severedevil wrote: Excellent point! Zerg cannot afford to pump lings nonstop against a 2-Rax Terran who doesn't move out. I recommend Zerg solve this problem by not pumping lings nonstop against a 2-Rax Terran who doesn't move out. Zergs scout and adjust. A profound concept, I know. The build that jdseemoreglass floated goes 11 overlord pool 16 queen 18 hatchery. You can plant your hatch at a reasonable time. You can't realistically not pump Lings to close to that 12 mark against a 1 rax 2 depot wall you can't scout behind on Steppes, Close Position Metal, or Delta Quadrant. Both Steppes and Metal can be instant-lose if the Terran player scouts you building a round of drones out of an inject because the rush distances are too short. Unless you're cross position Metal or on Shakuras, you're just not safe doing that without some lings to control the map - and there's plenty of evidence for that in the GSL. The current maps almost lend to the strength of 2 rax pressure almost more than the build order itself does. I think 11 pool 18 hatch is undoubtedly something Ret & IdrA have probably not explored, but if those bunkers can go down before you can get enough lings out to prevent a bunker block it's probably worse than 14 pool. You might be able to get that hatch down at 16 plus have more lings earlier. | ||
emc
United States3088 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:33 Chill wrote: You must have been watching SC2 with your eyes closed. No offense, Chill. I respect all what you do in this community. But lately I find your commentaries too negative against average TL-poster and all that you pursue is too criticize everyone who says anything like "I don't like map, balance, all-in, GSL, cheese", and even bashing Jinro for trying to post his opinion, which is based on his real experience. Look how people recommend GSL games to watch... most of games are recommended NOT to watch by over 70%. Which is quite alarming and apparently SC2 is failing at viewership. Why you trying to fight facts so hard? We are the SC community and if we don't say what we feel how do you see Blizzard improving situation. When I skim through threads I see most people here disappointed and complaining. If you see some amazing interesting stuff in these games you are lucky to be in these 20% who likes current scene but it doesn't help overall. | ||
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:36 Chill wrote: Okay, let's go through this one by one: I said "Some WWE sytem" implying the show is more important than the competition. I didn't imply it was the WWE. If you want to infer that, go ahead, but it's not my intention. All-ins are very common, which is why I didn't say they were special. I said amazing, drawn-out games are made special because of the amount of all-ins we often see. If people play for show then the show as a whole becomes less amazing. I can't even understand what your "bumbling out wonderful words" sentence means so please rewrite it. And your Reaper example doesn't build your argument or contrast mine so it's completely out of place. I think there is one important difference we need to consider: The games of Hongun vs Fruitdealer were HIGHLY entertaining (imo) because both were constantly playing mindgames against each other, and one of them did basicly something unexpected in each match-up. Consequently every game PLAYED OUT DIFFERENTLY! Sorry for caps, but I think that's the crucial point: there's nothing mindgame-ish about 2 rax scv all-in. There's nothing even "unexpected" about it, everybody's seen it, every zerg has been there. There is a HUGE difference between risky cheese builds like baneling busts or proxy stargates and the 2 rax all-in. Nearly all of the cheese builds only work because you catch your opponent off-guard, you have the element of surprise on your side. The 2 rax all-in is nothing like that. The opponent can expect it and prepare all he wants, he will still lose about 50% of the games. This is what makes it boring - I do NOT want a super fast DT tech to succeed if the build is scouted. I do NOT want proxy stargate void rays to succeed if they are scouted. Consequently, fruitdealer stomped over hongun after he has scouted the stargates. Those builds are exciting because the observer is like "will he scout it in time, ohh...he scouts it but very late, will it be enough....". 2 rax all-ins are the exact opposite, the observer knows that zerg expects it and STILL has a high loss-rate. This is, what - at least - I don't want to see. | ||
Rflcrx
503 Posts
Would I have done the same? Maybe, it is a hard call. Get good over time or fast but unreliable/unstable cash-in.. | ||
pirates
United States701 Posts
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Pondo
Australia283 Posts
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chokke
Norway228 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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pirates
United States701 Posts
On December 07 2010 09:01 Pondo wrote: I can't believe there are people in this thread actually arguing with Ret on how to play ZvT. I mean... seriously... you'd be suprised how many of these people are bronze | ||
I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On December 07 2010 09:02 chokke wrote: Why do none of these people throw up one, maybe 2 spinecrawlers at their main when their opponent is all-in? Instead of just throwing lings on the SCVs. Well, that means you're sacrificing your natural hatchery. If you're saying they don't have it yet, then the zerg player is investing 300 minerals in static defense without an expansion to show for it, meaning the terran gets a free expansion and an easy win 5 minutes down the road. | ||
Rflcrx
503 Posts
On December 07 2010 09:02 chokke wrote: Why do none of these people throw up one, maybe 2 spinecrawlers at their main when their opponent is all-in? Instead of just throwing lings on the SCVs. because 2 spinecrawlers are 8 zerglings. without those the marines will just roll in. the zerglings usually cover the spine at the expo or main so that it can be finished. also, 2 spines aren't enough, in a short time there will be enough marines to snipe. if you dont spread your spines they can bypass them and snipe drones or the hatch. either way, doesn't work. people already figured out the best counter to this build (early fe + lings + 1 spine + drones) but still it isn't good enough (w/l of 40~50% for zerg). /e on a sidenote: this apology isn't going to save esport. I am more entertainted watching events like dreamhack or mlg or even streams on tl. Even if gom service were actually decent (it isn't) I still wouldn't repurchase, because the games are not very high level in my opinion. | ||
DarkRise
1644 Posts
GSL 3 was the most boring GSL out of the 2 I used to love ZVT but its just so painful to watch, i think its not Rain's fault though!! Its the game!! | ||
Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On December 07 2010 09:05 Rflcrx wrote: because 2 spinecrawlers are 8 zerglings. without those the marines will just roll in. the zerglings usually cover the spine at the expo or main so that it can be finished. also, 2 spines aren't enough, in a short time there will be enough marines to snipe. if you dont spread your spines they can bypass them and snipe drones or the hatch. either way, doesn't work. people already figured out the best counter to this build (early fe + lings + 1 spine + drones) but still it isn't good enough (w/l of 40~50% for zerg). So basically they haven't figured out the best counter to this build yet? The best counter only results in a 40-50% win rate for the zerg? I think not. | ||
DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
(2000 diamond for reference.) | ||
Rflcrx
503 Posts
/e so jinro was cheating when he completely outplayed his zerg opponent lategame doomdash? or what are you trying to say? :rolleyes: | ||
itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
Also the fact that Terran might be even spawn at close position | ||
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