|
On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4?
Have you watched the games? It was not stellar play. Looking at his overall results on paper maybe he did ok but that's turning a blind eye to how he actually played.
|
On December 07 2010 09:48 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 09:04 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On December 07 2010 09:02 chokke wrote: Why do none of these people throw up one, maybe 2 spinecrawlers at their main when their opponent is all-in? Instead of just throwing lings on the SCVs. Well, that means you're sacrificing your natural hatchery. If you're saying they don't have it yet, then the zerg player is investing 300 minerals in static defense without an expansion to show for it, meaning the terran gets a free expansion and an easy win 5 minutes down the road. Pulling all workers to the opponent's base to kill his stuff is not free. In BW, a 12 Nex'ing Protoss would be fine if Terran decided to bunker rush and pull many SCVs to kill the natural nexus, because the cost of killing it was actually higher than the cost of planting it... Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 08:54 ShadowWolf wrote:On December 07 2010 08:42 Severedevil wrote:On December 07 2010 08:28 billyX333 wrote:On December 07 2010 08:18 Severedevil wrote:So... possible Zerg alternatives to 14 hatch nat --> lose to 2 rax. - 11 Overpool. Fast queen --> very high larva count, early pool --> early opportunity to make lings. Make a couple, check your opponent out, and go from there. Your inject will be quick enough to combat a rush if he performs one, so you don't need to go all-out zergling from the get-go. - Zergling presence + runby If Terran moves out with everything, you can move in with 4 Zerglings --> no mining (even with 'OP' mules) and no more unit production until he comes back home. Now that Terran's all-in, you just have to defend. (Hell, you don't even need to protect your natural, because it's not worthwhile for Terran to march all his SCVs across the map just to kill one hatchery and go home.) - Don't plant your hatchery on the path between the Terran and Zerg bases He attacks your main? You have Zerglings streaming from your second hatch to counter or flank. He attack your other base? You have Zerglings streaming from your main hatch to counter or flank. You can force the Terran out of position relative to one of your two hatcheries if he wants to move out. On December 07 2010 07:56 Angelbelow wrote:On December 07 2010 07:48 dabom88 wrote:
I'm in this group of people. I recognize the skill of pro Zerg players. And I can see the reasoning behind the argument of "14 Hatch is safest/best against 2-Rax". I see how it COULD be true. But until I see more non-14 Hatch builds vs. 2-Rax and see how they compare in viability, I don't think it's hard to see why I would be more convinced of the argument that 14 Hatch ISN'T the best opener against 2-Rax. Youre trying to be objective. That is a good thing, but in this situation I dont think youre being objective. Do you not think its possible that Idra and Ret practiced with pool first? They cant be that stupid can they? For them to proclaim that "strategy X" is the best way we found, do you assume that thats the only thing they tried? I'm willing to bet that they tried a bunch of variations before coming to a conclusion. As far as seeing a different opener vs a 2-rax, maybe we don't see it because all the zergs feel as if hatch first truly is better. No, I do not believe that Idra/Ret have adequately practiced pool-first openers such as 11 overpool. In fact, from Ret's assertion that the first injection arrives too late to fight the first push, I'm led to believe he's doing 14+ pool builds, which exchange later injection and lings for more cash to invest in a faster second hatchery or gas. If Idra, Ret, or other pro zergs that complain of 2-Rax openings have practiced at least a few dozen matches of 11 overpool vs. 2 rax, I entreat them to share. On December 07 2010 07:47 Airfan wrote: I don't mind cheese at all. 6pool here, proxy gates there, it keeps players on their toes, makes them scout early and enables them to play mind games. But seriously, if 2 rax is going to become/stay as the new standard like 5 rax reaper was some time ago, there is something obviously broken in the matchup. Why? 2 Rax OC is a reasonable balance of aggression and economy. You get a solid early unit count without over-committing, at the expense of delaying tech/expansion by a minute or so. On December 07 2010 07:41 Lokian wrote:On December 07 2010 07:38 Disastorm wrote:On December 07 2010 07:34 Ympulse wrote:On December 07 2010 07:27 Shana wrote: Cheese or not, a win is a win. This is all that needs to be said. When thousands of dollars are on the line, you either play to win or go home a loser. People aren't complaining that he cheesed, they are complaining that the cheese is too strong. Basically blizzard nerfed the reaper cheese and also nerfed the previous scv marine all in by reducing scv hp. Well its still too strong and needs more nerfing. bring back drone range :p Please do! And for probes. The way workers fight nowadays makes me a sad panda. terrans scout and adjust. a profound concept, i know if they see 11pool and lings being pumped non stopbunker + CC = GG Excellent point! Zerg cannot afford to pump lings nonstop against a 2-Rax Terran who doesn't move out. I recommend Zerg solve this problem by not pumping lings nonstop against a 2-Rax Terran who doesn't move out. Zergs scout and adjust. A profound concept, I know. what are you going to do with 12+ slow lings and a terribly late expo when you opponent is mining faster than what he can produce out of 2 rax The build that jdseemoreglass floated goes 11 overlord pool 16 queen 18 hatchery. You can plant your hatch at a reasonable time. I think 11 pool 18 hatch is undoubtedly something Ret & IdrA have probably not explored, but if those bunkers can go down before you can get enough lings out to prevent a bunker block it's probably worse than 14 pool. You might be able to get that hatch down at 16 plus have more lings earlier. With 11 Overpool, your Zerglings should spawn at the same time as Terran's marines. I doubt he can reasonably bunker you in.
With 12 nex you were constantly pumping probes and could easily also break a bunker contain after losing your nat. More often than not also you weren't ahead, but even. Sometimes you were, depending on the amount of SCVs committed. It was highly dependent on that. Of course, in SC2 they bring a butt ton. The thing is, you abandon your nat --> you're still at a worker disadvantage because you were producing lings from that natural hat, not drones. You produce drones he'll walk into your base and roll you. Also, he can set up a costly bunker contain that you can't easily get out of (goon range upgraded > bunker range in BW), and which he could expand behind.
Not feasible at all, two completely different scenarios.
|
On December 07 2010 10:12 kaboombaby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4? Have you watched the games? It was not stellar play. Looking at his overall results on paper maybe he did ok but that's turning a blind eye to how he actually played. allright, why don't you tell me, point by point, what exactly has made moon as crappy as you think he is.
|
I thought we all agreed that Moon didn't play as well as he could have. TBH, he's playing both WC3 and SC2 at the same time, splitting his schedule. Obviously, he's not gonna play up to his 100% potential. Let's talk about the things that happened in the game against Jinro. Trying to backstab Jinro through the middle with banelings, only to attack a couple tanks with 20+ banelings = not optimal. There were many mistakes during the game, but that huge blunder to 'a move' his banelings easily costed him the game.
|
On December 07 2010 08:16 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 08:02 Kvz wrote: Heh, I figured when blizzard said at blizzcon that marines are overtuned in the early game that people would begin to start using them en masse. It's not really surprising.
As a 2500 Z (I stopped laddering 2 weeks ago) its really frustrating when people keep saying 'just go one base' or "learn to prepare for it" because in all honesty even if you see it coming, the terran can choose not to attack and just CC and expand behind a bunker. What do you do with the 24 lings you made now lol?
Btw I have been experimenting with my practice partners going 14gas/14pool and the problem with this is that they terran can actually do a slow bunker push as you lack the zerglings early to really defend against it. I"m talking about a bunker to the far side of your natural to deny a natural and then continuously pushing to your ramp with it while blocking off their own base. Hear hear! A well constructed point that explains exactly why 14 hatch is needed against 2rax pressure. Complete with detailed experience mixed in explaining why you hatch first versus this exact build. These are the kind of posts that are needed in strategy threads and across teamliquid. No mindlessly copying pro's, just straight up honest experience explained and laid out on a silver plate for us to read. I want to thank you for posting this and I feel we need to encourage people to post like this more.
Wow I just read this. Thank you for the kind words, and here's to hoping that someone finds a build that will effectively deal 2rax .
|
On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Moon is still mostly playing WC3 till the end of the year and he just recently changed to zerg. Hardly showing what WC3 players can do when others have done better even in this GSL let alone winning dreamhack. Many top players are ex WC3 players and most of the top ones havent even switched over yet.
It also takes away credit from Jinro, ok Moon made some glaring mistakes but the victories were far from easy I am sure Jinro would attest to that.
|
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
why should he be bothered about how he plays? he wins, that's it.
|
On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games.
When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house?
|
The reason why Terran is so strong early/early-mid game is because they don't have a late game really (except for BC). They can tech to and build any unit they want safely behind their wall-in, and neither Zerg nor Protoss will be able to break them. This makes it difficult for Blizzard to give Terran a strong late game simply because Terran easily reach the "late game" units during the mid game if they want to without any danger of dying, and can often opt for an early expansion rather safely as well. This forces Terrans late game to be weak, because if Terran's had strong late game units, they would just build them during the mid game.
|
Terran is going to get there mules nerfed if they keep going at it like this...
|
On December 07 2010 10:22 CanucksJC wrote: I thought we all agreed that Moon didn't play as well as he could have. TBH, he's playing both WC3 and SC2 at the same time, splitting his schedule. Obviously, he's not gonna play up to his 100% potential. Let's talk about the things that happened in the game against Jinro. Trying to backstab Jinro through the middle with banelings, only to attack a couple tanks with 20+ banelings = not optimal. There were many mistakes during the game, but that huge blunder to 'a move' his banelings easily costed him the game. you're confusing moon made mistakes with moon is horrible and jinro can't be used as an example of a successful macro terran. Would the game have been a one sided zerg rape had he not blow up those banelings on tanks? No. Take July vs Alive as another example. Alive had absolutely no plan past expanding once and still he almost got him with the final push. Can i use that as an example? Because clearly Alive was hanging in it against a zerg in a macro game, and had he implemented some sort of post natural plan he would have great chances to win in that game.
Everyone makes mistakes, but it doesnt mean that you can dismiss games just because they don't fit in with your point of view, otherwise we simply get a cycle of broken logic where t's can't hang with z in a macro game and every z who loses a macro game against terran is automatically bad.
|
The mule doesn't have to get "nerrfed" - isn't it possible that they could give Terrans an advatange similar to what the mule gives but also prevent early all ins from benefiting from that advantage? Maybe we could make the mule's mineral gain progressive as time goes on?
|
On December 07 2010 10:31 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house?
Did you even read the entire post? Good god.
|
Terran early game is good, zerg lategame is unbeatable, fans prefer watching lategames, so people assume the proper/best way to play is lategame? aka the best way to play is to let the zerg win... You play to win with what youve been given by the balance team, anything else is WWF wrestling. The fact that the terran who utilized his early game advantage (and avoided the impossible tvz lategame scenario) had to appologize for winning? wow...
The whole reason terran lategame blows are the nerfs to seigetanks and the discovery of magic box nullify thor's AA. Nerf terran early game and buff seige tanks/thor AA and suddenly you have a very balanced early/mid/lategame matchup
|
On December 07 2010 10:31 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house?
Well, if he bought the premium package for GOM, he does help pay for those things.
|
The problem is they can all in with so many scv's and there economy remains unchanged...im sorry but that is ridiculous...Granted who are we to say he shouldnt do it, there is a lot of money on the line and we have seen other zergs deal with this and come out on top....But I do think it is something that needs to be addressed.
|
TvZ is just so boring and one dimensional. The all ins make me go and watch TV. It's just rinse and repeat with short games that end anticlimactically.
|
terran all-in is not a auto win. Its only likely to be an auto win because Zerg's love to FE, before a pool.
a 13 pool, 13 extractor would hard counter any all=ins easy
|
On December 07 2010 10:41 RiceMuncher wrote: terran all-in is not a auto win. Its only likely to be an auto win because Zerg's love to FE, before a pool.
a 13 pool, 13 extractor would hard counter any all=ins easy "Oh, you didn't fast expand and you blindly made 20 lings. I guess I'll just bunker up at my natural and expand!"
|
On December 07 2010 09:01 Pondo wrote: I can't believe there are people in this thread actually arguing with Ret on how to play ZvT. I mean... seriously...
Talking about droning for 12 minutes and roflstomp T?
|
|
|
|