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On December 07 2010 10:35 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:31 Digamma wrote:On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house? Did you even read the entire post? Good god.
Why would i ever waste my time to read 30 pages of inane crying about someone playing to win?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 07 2010 10:43 LoLAdriankat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:41 RiceMuncher wrote: terran all-in is not a auto win. Its only likely to be an auto win because Zerg's love to FE, before a pool.
a 13 pool, 13 extractor would hard counter any all=ins easy "Oh, you didn't fast expand and you blindly made 20 lings. I guess I'll just bunker up at my natural and expand!"
No your drone can scout and see what he does, then since Terran is going all-in, he wont have any gas. You can pretty much do anything with your tech from here
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I feel like there's an expectation by the original poster for Zerg to fast expo. The fact is, regardless of how minor patch changes affect balance issues, that your Zerg player needs to take the risky (but effective) fast expansion for two barracks pressure to be effective. If Nestea would have decided to take fewer chances, he wouldn't have been prone to the power of marines/scvs.
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On December 07 2010 10:45 RiceMuncher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:43 LoLAdriankat wrote:On December 07 2010 10:41 RiceMuncher wrote: terran all-in is not a auto win. Its only likely to be an auto win because Zerg's love to FE, before a pool.
a 13 pool, 13 extractor would hard counter any all=ins easy "Oh, you didn't fast expand and you blindly made 20 lings. I guess I'll just bunker up at my natural and expand!" No your drone can scout and see what he does, then since Terran is going all-in, he wont have any gas. You can pretty much do anything with your tech from here How are you going to tell a 2-rax scv rush, a 4-rax (with 2 hidden rax) scv timing rush, and a 2-rax expand apart? Scouting the blocked ramp isn't enough.
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my opinion is that this is a big cash tournament and you have to do all you can (by the rules of course) to win it..
If you look at fruitdealer he also all inned and it backfired.. and he messed up when he caught the other guy proxied stargates..
I watched both games and i got disapointed but not because of cheese or all-ins.. fruitdealer and nestea played poorly and lost and that's what upsets me..
Rain in my opinion is a regular terran not a foxer and not a jinro.. nada and boxer are better but he might have won against those guys if they didn't prepare for this.. i mean nestea saw his GSL games and played him before on ladder.. how come he didn't prepare enought? why first hatch all the time? because he was confident and took a risk.. what happened??
he lost end of story!
I don't pay for GSL but if i did i wouldn't be angry at them.. this was entertaning but my guys lost
hoping for a Jinro win! and he will macro up
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On December 07 2010 10:37 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:31 Digamma wrote:On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house? Well, if he bought the premium package for GOM, he does help pay for those things.
No he doesn't. GOM doesn't pay its players. They pay if you win, which is what all these people are trying to do.
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I don't see why anyone that doesn't cheat should have to apologize...
"Hate the game, not the player!"
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On December 07 2010 09:19 pirates wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 09:14 DooMDash wrote: As a Terran I can tell you that the match up is screwed up after mid-game in Zergs favor. Needs to be adjusted and the all-ins will go away. It has something to do with sling/bane/muta as a combo. I think T needs a more mobile way to deal with muta.
(2000 diamond for reference.) This is kinda true. Massing missile turrets is so brood war. Vikings, Terran's air-to-air unit gets shit on by mutaslisks in groups :/. Upgraded marines shit on Mutas but any decent Zerg can harass with mutas and have a group of marines running in circles without losing his muta ball. Thors own mutas but they are also one of the slowest combat units.
This is the question I have been wondering. Why don't I see mass turrets anymore? Is it because of the lack of mineral-only third base? Rain got raped hard after mutas are out because he has like 2 turrets in the main base.
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imo good for him. He's showing its possible that a race besides Zerg can win a GSL! I see no problem with his playstyle, its aggressive and micro heavy. I remember when Boxer was popular on SC1 years ago and he used to do a marine / medic / tank / vulture timing attack every tvp and micro his heart out. People loved it! But now the game just evolved into a macro fest.
Anyway, when theres so much money to be won, why not do the strategies you are most comfortable doing? I know I would.
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On December 07 2010 10:45 RiceMuncher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:43 LoLAdriankat wrote:On December 07 2010 10:41 RiceMuncher wrote: terran all-in is not a auto win. Its only likely to be an auto win because Zerg's love to FE, before a pool.
a 13 pool, 13 extractor would hard counter any all=ins easy "Oh, you didn't fast expand and you blindly made 20 lings. I guess I'll just bunker up at my natural and expand!" No your drone can scout and see what he does, then since Terran is going all-in, he wont have any gas. You can pretty much do anything with your tech from here Yes you can drone scout and see that he has no gas, but that's not where the difficulty lies. As soon as your drone leaves/dies, that's when the guessing game begins. Is he going to keep making marines? Is he switching to full econ mode with a cc behind his wall? Is he going completely all-in and doing 4 rax no gas? There's no way to tell, and underproducing or overproducing an army can leave you far behind or lose you the game.
One thing Artosis has been urging the players to do is to blindly get a banelings nest, which I haven't seen many of them do. This could be the answer, although the fact that GSL zergs rarely do this makes me question its viability.
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On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.
I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity.
Exactly, the players don't plan their builds according to what the viewers want to see, they do it in order to win. If you are not happy by their performance, then don't pay for the ticket.
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As Herman Edwards says, "You play to win the game!"
Rain played to win the game. He won. Now he's in the Ro8 with a greater payday opportunity. It's not a "beauty pageant" with the "most beautiful" player being able to advance. That's not how it works. There's a reason why there's qualifiers and not automatic seed-ins. People should work their way in. If this strategy is how BitByBit and Rain do it, then by all means let them do it. It is primarily the opponent's responsibility to be prepared for such strategies. You don't go crying, "THIS STRATEGY IMBA" when you know your opponent is a notorious all-in player and you were playing for the late macro game (I am not implying that Nestea knew or said this, just stating this as a general common sense fact).
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
terran is the best at macro, cheese, strategial, tactically, micro in SC2, they dont have to sacrifise anything to acomplish something, Z have to stop doing drones, P hace to stop doing Probes i dont understand why blizzard makes terran that good
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Blind baneling nest will be not be a good enough counter. The marine rush can come before your first zerglings are out. With a small enough number of banelings marines will just snipe them off. By the time you have banes down he'll likely have bunkers already. I hope every terran cashes in on this because I hate it when something imba is used once every 5-10 games and suddenly people don't think it's imba anymore. It's not how often it's used that matters, it's how effective it is. No strat should be so effective that you can consider it a sure win backup plan when it's 2:2 and you don't care how you win.
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On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4?
I don't care what his rating is. You can't deny that his performance against Jinro was in anyway representative of the right way to play Zerg. He got scared of 1 turret as if it has splash damage for god's sake. Not to mention running bling into tank line. Why don't you make a poll and see how many agree with you that Moon was a player of Jinro's caliber? Better yet go ask Idra and see what he thinks of Moon. He was no doubt a great chaos player but he has not training full time for SC2 I heard.
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Everyone is quoting Idra and Ret as if God has spoken and that 14 Hatch is the best build. That's coming from two of the greediest macro zergs around, so it's not surprising.
I don't hear anyone quoting Artosis, who is a little more balanced, when he says that 14 hatch is too risky and that the safer build is gas first for quick speedlings or, if you do go 14 hatch, blind counter with a baneling nest or 2 spine crawlers.
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On December 07 2010 10:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:37 TestSubject893 wrote:On December 07 2010 10:31 Digamma wrote:On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house? Well, if he bought the premium package for GOM, he does help pay for those things. No he doesn't. GOM doesn't pay its players. They pay if you win, which is what all these people are trying to do.
And TSLRain is guaranteed to be paid at least 10,000,000 Won (roughly $9000) for his performance in this GSL, more if he advances further. Maybe I don't understand your point, do you care to elaborate?
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There's really no reason to hate on Rain.
There's only two possibilities:
1. NesTea was capable of holding off the all-ins, he failed to do so. This is not Rain's fault.
2. NesTea was not capable of holding off the all-ins because of imbalance. This is also not Rain's fault.
I personally believe it's about 10% #1 and 90% #2 since it is much harder to defend these attacks then to execute them, and even if you defend them successfully, if they killed enough drones, you can still lose because the sheer power of MULEs allows any T player to trade workers and still come out ahead.
Either way, not Rain's fault, not his problem. Hate his playstyle, hate the game, hate Blizzard, but Rain has done nothing wrong.
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Blame blizzard on the maps and the strength of all-ins NOT the players... Anyway both Nestea and Fruitdealer played poorly imo, they weren't up too their usual standards.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On December 07 2010 10:59 out4blood wrote: Everyone is quoting Idra and Ret as if God has spoken and that 14 Hatch is the best build. That's coming from two of the greediest macro zergs around, so it's not surprising.
I don't hear anyone quoting Artosis, who is a little more balanced, when he says that 14 hatch is too risky and that the safer build is gas first for quick speedlings or, if you do go 14 hatch, blind counter with a baneling nest or 2 spine crawlers.
i think that could help a lot, with this kind of aggresive terrans, but many playes like idra, ret, dont like to change to much their way of play. i think, Z should just as he throws down the 14hatch but he should put the roach warren just in case maybe i will sacrifise some drones, i think its safe enough.
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