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On December 07 2010 11:24 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:19 arsenic wrote:On December 07 2010 10:59 out4blood wrote: Everyone is quoting Idra and Ret as if God has spoken and that 14 Hatch is the best build. That's coming from two of the greediest macro zergs around, so it's not surprising.
I don't hear anyone quoting Artosis, who is a little more balanced, when he says that 14 hatch is too risky and that the safer build is gas first for quick speedlings or, if you do go 14 hatch, blind counter with a baneling nest or 2 spine crawlers. 14 Hatch being the best build has nothing to do with being greedy or anything. It is simply the best response to the 2 rax build... And you don't have time to build a Baneling Nest. Your Spawning Pool just finished >.> O.o I'm confused you just said 14 hatch is the direct counter to the 2 rax, when the reason all the terran's are 2 raxing now to begin with is because zerg's 14 hatch. It seems that the opposite is true.
No it isn't. Terrans will 2rax before you even go 14hatch, and still would go 2rax if Zergs weren't going 14hatch. 2rax opening is just overall a solid pressure build no matter the opponent opening.
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Zergs should at least toss up a crawler or two just in case their opponent does a marine/SCV all-in.
I mean, the bloody thing can be moved somewhere else later anyway.
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On December 07 2010 10:57 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4? I don't care what his rating is. You can't deny that his performance against Jinro was in anyway representative of the right way to play Zerg. He got scared of 1 turret as if it has splash damage for god's sake. Not to mention running bling into tank line. Why don't you make a poll and see how many agree with you that Moon was a player of Jinro's caliber? Better yet go ask Idra and see what he thinks of Moon. He was no doubt a great chaos player but he has not training full time for SC2 I heard. I dont care if you don't care what his rating is. His rating speaks a ton more about the games then opinions of some platinum players who barely understand the game themselves. Same people who bash Moon for his performance against Jinro praised him for his games against butterflyeffect just a week before that when in reality he has improved a ton inbetween these games. If you are really as objective as you want to seem- look at Clide vs leenock series where clide confidently goes toe to toe with a macro zerg.
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On December 07 2010 11:56 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:57 positron. wrote:On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4? I don't care what his rating is. You can't deny that his performance against Jinro was in anyway representative of the right way to play Zerg. He got scared of 1 turret as if it has splash damage for god's sake. Not to mention running bling into tank line. Why don't you make a poll and see how many agree with you that Moon was a player of Jinro's caliber? Better yet go ask Idra and see what he thinks of Moon. He was no doubt a great chaos player but he has not training full time for SC2 I heard. I dont care if you don't care what his rating is. His rating speaks a ton more about the games then opinions of some platinum players who barely understand the game themselves. Same people who bash Moon for his performance against Jinro praised him for his games against butterflyeffect just a week before that when in reality he has improved a ton inbetween these games. If you are really as objective as you want to seem- look at Clide vs leenock series where clide confidently goes toe to toe with a macro zerg.
Hardly. You think after playing so much in general, out of nowhere he's going to experience a substantial improvement in performance? No way. Moon played poorly in both series, he's just not a representative of the top Zergs at the moment or what they are capable of in any way.
Concerning Clide vs Leenock, personally I even felt Clide could have played it quite better and even won the game. He could have utilized drops much better, and left a siege tank or so behind to take out expos like players would always do in BW at expansions.
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"look at Clide vs leenock series where clide confidently goes toe to toe with a macro zerg. "
...and got knocked out in ro64, whereas his teammate Rain is in the semi's taking out last years winner!
Don't you guys think this all-in will exist for as long as it gives wins? Zergs were whining because they were getting punished early in the beginning of release, then patches happened and zergs started winning everything, now they are being punished early again and they want more patches!
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He played to win within legitimate means, thats all that matters in sports.
In a tournament setting it doesn't matter who's the known better player, what matters is who wins the match up and players should utilize everything in their arsenal to make that happen.
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
I apologize if this link has already been posted in earlier posts, 33 pages of posts in less than a day lol.
edit: spelling
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On December 07 2010 11:49 Ryhn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:46 ArtOfRandom wrote: Some people keep claiming that 14 hatch is the safest build against 2 rax because of larvae or because of creep or because idra said so or whatever, but where's the proof? I sadly have no proof, but when Ret and IdrA - two of the best foreigner macro zergs - put their heads together to solve the problem of 2rax pressure, I listen to their conclusion. In this case, they seem to have agreed that it is safest to 14hatch vs 2rax. For now, until proven otherwise, that's good enough for me.
Problem is, if you've ever followed an RTS from the beginning, you know that the not only do top players of the beginning often don't end up the top players, build orders and strategies will evolve, refine, and change as game goes on despite what top players originally thought (and i mean without influence from the patches and the like)
Players can be top players for reasons other than their strategical prowess or inventive build orders. There are so many various skills that come into play in Starcraft, that just because someone wins a lot right now does not mean they are "doing it right" when it comes to their build orders. Indeed, a great deal of top players get their build orders and strategies from the general community, and execute them better than the average player.
Note that I'm not saying anything conclusive about Idra or Ret or their opinion, but I just don't like the attitude that "so and so said so so thats that" repeated by forum drones because it kinda closes off discussion and hinders innovation. The entire community should be finding counters to popular strats, not leaving it up to a small portion of players to tell them how their games should go in a new game that's dealing with a newly popular strategy
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Nestea got complacent and kept being greedy. If zerg decides to go hatch first to get a good economy, terran is in every right to exploit that. Nestea lost because Rain was better. Maybe he would have won if he went to mid late game, but if you don't know how to make dough, you ain't gonna be making bread.
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On December 07 2010 12:00 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:57 positron. wrote:On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4? I don't care what his rating is. You can't deny that his performance against Jinro was in anyway representative of the right way to play Zerg. He got scared of 1 turret as if it has splash damage for god's sake. Not to mention running bling into tank line. Why don't you make a poll and see how many agree with you that Moon was a player of Jinro's caliber? Better yet go ask Idra and see what he thinks of Moon. He was no doubt a great chaos player but he has not training full time for SC2 I heard. I dont care if you don't care what his rating is. His rating speaks a ton more about the games then opinions of some platinum players who barely understand the game themselves. Same people who bash Moon for his performance against Jinro praised him for his games against butterflyeffect just a week before that when in reality he has improved a ton inbetween these games. If you are really as objective as you want to seem- look at Clide vs leenock series where clide confidently goes toe to toe with a macro zerg. Hardly. You think after playing so much in general, out of nowhere he's going to experience a substantial improvement in performance? No way. Moon played poorly in both series, he's just not a representative of the top Zergs at the moment or what they are capable of in any way. who what where are those phantom zerg heroes. I am not saying that he is a zerg bonjwa but to dismiss him in his entirety is nonsense. And it is sorta hard to compare his skill level with other zerg's simply because we haven't really seen much quality zergs against quality terrans that didnt end up in an early defeat.
Concerning Clide vs Leenock, personally I even felt Clide could have played it quite better and even won the game. He could have utilized drops much better, and left a siege tank or so behind to take out expos like players would always do in BW at expansions.
well good, and i regret saying it because forum trolls don't leave objectivity unpunished, but Leenock could probably have won JB game if he played slightly better. Point is there is absolutely no evidence that terran can't hang with zerg in a macro game, because the games we have available at hand that feature two top players clearly display that both race's macro capabilities are close to even and if the losing player made slight improvements to his game the outcome could have changed.
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I'm sure all those batters screamed "cheap" at Roy Halladay when he pitched those no-hitters.
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On December 07 2010 12:01 Dingotrold wrote:
Don't you guys think this all-in will exist for as long as it gives wins? Zergs were whining because they were getting punished early in the beginning of release, then patches happened and zergs started winning everything, now they are being punished early again and they want more patches! Terran has never stopped dominating since the release(well, they have been dominating since phase 2 tbh). And GSL1 was won by a zerg pre-patch.
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It's ridiculous to blame someone for doing everything in his power to win. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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On December 07 2010 11:56 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:57 positron. wrote:On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4? I don't care what his rating is. You can't deny that his performance against Jinro was in anyway representative of the right way to play Zerg. He got scared of 1 turret as if it has splash damage for god's sake. Not to mention running bling into tank line. Why don't you make a poll and see how many agree with you that Moon was a player of Jinro's caliber? Better yet go ask Idra and see what he thinks of Moon. He was no doubt a great chaos player but he has not training full time for SC2 I heard. I dont care if you don't care what his rating is. His rating speaks a ton more about the games then opinions of some platinum players who barely understand the game themselves. Same people who bash Moon for his performance against Jinro praised him for his games against butterflyeffect just a week before that when in reality he has improved a ton inbetween these games. If you are really as objective as you want to seem- look at Clide vs leenock series where clide confidently goes toe to toe with a macro zerg.
How exactly does his rating speaks a ton about the game? Please elaborate. Nobody in their right mind bashing players for losing. Many people, myself included. merely pointed out the fact that you cannot use Jinro vs. Moon to say that Jinro's startegy is the new revolution of Terran macro play. The reason is because it has not been tested against the best Zerg yet. Every new strat needs time to be tested and people are just jumping the gun on this one out of their Zerg bias. I am disappointed that we won't get to see Jinro's TvZ until the next season or after GSL but until then people need to stop citing that game as the proof of whatever it is they want to believe. The sample size was just too small.
Clide won a macro game on the most imba TvZ map ever. I think Terran went something like 5-0 on Jungle Basin until the round of 16 or 32 not sure about that one. Did you really think that Moon's play was top notch for a Zerg player in that series? Please give me an answer on that one.
I don't need to put on a fake front of being objective so please don't make it sound like I am pretending to be objective. It adds nothing to the discussion and the weight of your argument.
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On December 07 2010 10:31 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:19 ultramafia wrote: everytime i get really upset about cheesy games (especially this deep into gsl), i remember that these are the "preliminary qualifiers" for the real league. I also try to step back, calm down, and remember that this game is less than 6 months into its lifespan as a game/sport.
As i am certainly disappointed with some of the games, i am also highly disappointed with other sporting events when they become melodramatic(e.g. world cup finals this year). I don't feel bad for TSL.Rain. He had to choose whether he wanted to go for the best probability of winning the games vs nestea or if he wanted to build fans by bringing exciting games. He isn't stupid and he knows fans want to see exciting games not early rax all ins.
Maybe I am mistaken but none of his wins today seemed as if he had any back up plan. He says he "want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that." I'm not a professional player but thats not what i saw out of his games. When was it your right to be upset in the first place? Do you pay for his meals? His house? I don't have a right to be upset that a game i paid to watch was boring to me? You don't get upset if you get really excited for a movie and then the movie sucks? I'm not even blaming it on anything i'm just saying I prefer longer more diverse games. You don't have to be upset and i certainly don't want any player to apologize. He did what he did to win and I respect that but he is not winning any fans by playing games like this and then apologizing for it after.
This is a preliminary tournament and i am sure as code s rain will have plenty of chances to win money. Maybe building a fan base with exciting play and maybe upsetting a giant favorite by playing an interesting game will bring massive amounts of fans. I believe that would ultimately favor his career even further. Again just my opinion though. That word 'opinion' seems to have little meaning on message boards.
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On December 07 2010 12:12 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:57 positron. wrote:On December 07 2010 10:09 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 10:07 kaboombaby wrote:On December 07 2010 10:06 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 07 2010 09:58 avilo wrote:On December 07 2010 09:55 Tha_Docta wrote: Didnt Jinro show us that terrans can actually macro against zergs.
I get the feeling that every terran is all-ining these days because its a fad. I think soon enough its effectiveness will wear down, and we'l see other strats coming He showed that a war3 legend's macro/decision making in SC is pretty bad. I wouldn't get your hopes up, Terrans are going to keep playing this way. Wow people are so fucking biased against zerg. Based on what exactly do you all think you can just dismiss moon? Based on how he performed in the GSL. u mean beat a 2700 korean ladder rated terran and then lost in a close series to the guy who's now top4? I don't care what his rating is. You can't deny that his performance against Jinro was in anyway representative of the right way to play Zerg. He got scared of 1 turret as if it has splash damage for god's sake. Not to mention running bling into tank line. Why don't you make a poll and see how many agree with you that Moon was a player of Jinro's caliber? Better yet go ask Idra and see what he thinks of Moon. He was no doubt a great chaos player but he has not training full time for SC2 I heard. I dont care if you don't care what his rating is. His rating speaks a ton more about the games then opinions of some platinum players who barely understand the game themselves. Same people who bash Moon for his performance against Jinro praised him for his games against butterflyeffect just a week before that when in reality he has improved a ton inbetween these games. If you are really as objective as you want to seem- look at Clide vs leenock series where clide confidently goes toe to toe with a macro zerg. How exactly does his rating speaks a ton about the game? Please elaborate. Nobody in their right mind bashing players for losing. Many people, myself included. merely pointed out the fact that you cannot use Jinro vs. Moon to say that Jinro's startegy is the new revolution of Terran macro play. The reason is because it has not been tested against the best Zerg yet. Every new strat needs time to be tested and people are just jumping the gun on this one out of their Zerg bias. I am disappointed that we won't get to see Jinro's TvZ until the next season or after GSL but until then people need to stop citing that game as the proof of whatever it is they want to believe. The sample size was just too small. Clide won a macro game on the most imba TvZ map ever. I think Terran went something like 5-0 on Jungle Basin until the round of 16 or 32 not sure about that one. Did you really think that Moon's play was top notch for a Zerg player in that series? Please give me an answer on that one. I don't need to put on a fake front of being objective so please don't make it sound like I am pretending to be objective. It adds nothing to the discussion and the weight of your argument. Clide also almost won on what many consider to be the most zerg favored map. Since you seem like a reasonable man, ill just sum up my point- we don't know. And we won't know for the longest time, simply because terrans limit themselves to one or two base plays and terran strategical development stagnates. Maybe lategame zerg does need a nerf. But Blizzard stalling terran early game nerfs, and people on forums actually supporting that delay just slows down teh development of the game. The later we'll get terran nerfs the later we can approach fixing late game zerg if so needed be.
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Is two hatch off of one base play not viable on a map like steppes? Seems like having a hatch at the top of the ramp would help zerg defend so much easier. If you are guaranteed to lose your expo to a marine scv rush it just seems more logical to atleast try some sort of 2hatch one base play.
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Coming from a Z player, Rain has absolutely nothing to apologize for. Zergs are getting greedy with hatch first openings and getting punished for it. Like 14 Hatch on Steppes of War? That is never, ever, going to beat any type of 2 rax. Zergs need to learn to adapt as Artosis has been saying. I may not be the best player (2100 D), but I don't have to be to see that lots of Zergs have been losing by going 14 hatch. In ZvZ it would be like saying that going 14gas, pool, speedling into a banelings against 14 hatch is cheesy. Its not. It is a simple build order win.
All that, are just observations from games lost and won. I think Z should start doing openings like 14 pool 16 hatch, getting gas for speed and leaving the option to tech to banelings fast open. I have been experimenting with gasing to 100, getting speed, gasing to 50 then pulling drones off gas. If I discover its marine scv all in, then I plop a bnest down and mine gas. If not, then I just do whatever I need to.
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they're not playing for your entertainment whether you paid $20 or not, they're playing just to win. and watching all-ins are fun imo..
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Okay I have to say this since I've heard a lot of you cry like sissies about the freakin $20 dollar that you paid for this GSL.
IT IS NOT A FUCKING MILLION DOLLARS YOU PAID. SHUT UP AND JUST WATCH WHAT YOU GET IN YOUR BASEMENT AND EAT YOUR NAACHOS IF THE $20 wasn't the entirety of your year's budget.
OP are you dumb! - are you saying that you demand non cheesy play if you pay for the games lol! Rain should not apologize, he exploited Nestea's weakness. Nestea might be godlike mid/late game but he lost where it mattered. So he is out.
Stop the QQ!
and seriously GSL does not really need your money. Lol you idiots think that your money runs their show. Just don't pay if you don't like it. It is that simple.
It is surprising how entitled, full of themselves, and blinded people can get as a group.
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On December 07 2010 12:26 Trajan98 wrote: Is two hatch off of one base play not viable on a map like steppes? Seems like having a hatch at the top of the ramp would help zerg defend so much easier. If you are guaranteed to lose your expo to a marine scv rush it just seems more logical to atleast try some sort of 2hatch one base play.
It is viable to an extent.
Fruit Dealer actually did it in his game on steppes and MadFrog does second hatch in base plays all the time, even when hes not walled in
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