Koreans React to GSL Ro8 - Page 35
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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Moonwrath
United States9568 Posts
On December 07 2010 11:49 Ryhn wrote: I sadly have no proof, but when Ret and IdrA - two of the best foreigner macro zergs - put their heads together to solve the problem of 2rax pressure, I listen to their conclusion. In this case, they seem to have agreed that it is safest to 14hatch vs 2rax. For now, until proven otherwise, that's good enough for me. That's kind of a dumb way to see it tbh. 2 players, who I admit are insanely good(but are VERY macro oriented), say that a particular build is the best defense against early 2 rax pressure, but the evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY against them. 14 hatch loses like 80% of the time to these all ins. If something is only a 20% win rate against a certain strat, I would hardly consider that the best option. I don't understand why some zerg players feel that getting an extremely fast expansion should be God given right when you play as zerg. It's a greedy build, period. The counter to greedy builds is early pressure, period. | ||
ace246
Australia360 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:16 oprandom wrote: Lastly, by this standard Fruitdealer should apologize and hand back his trophy for going 6pool against OGSInca. People who complain about marine scv all-ins have no right to unless they were against 6pool. Didn't hear a peep from most of you, guess why. It's because Zerg only considers it unfair if Terran cheeses lol. I'm a random player for the record, but it's just funny to see how biased people are. 6 pool has much much lower success rate than 2 rax allin. And the one where fruitdealer did it was on a 4 player map so it was even twice as much more lower chance of success. Your the only person in this thread who is stupid enough to integrate a player doing 6 pool with a player doing 2 rax allin. | ||
Falling
Canada10944 Posts
In this way the exploit is fixed. If people like Rain never exploit the weak beginning of the Zerg, then the exploit still exists, but everyone chooses to ignore it, but it will undoubtedly show up later. It may make for some frustrating games at the beginning of the GSL. However, this process is absolutely necessary for the longevity of SC2 as e-sports. The games should be entertaining because they are and not because of some WWE show-boating. | ||
Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:07 avilo wrote: don't see why fans are mad at the player. He does what you do to win. they should be mad more at blizard. Pretty much this. The moment people start blaming the players for playing to win is the moment you abandon your love of competition. Blame the game, not the player (also lol @ the bias, I'd like to see a zerg apologize for winning a game with the brilliant "s, hold down z" strategy) | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:38 ace246 wrote: 6 pool has much much lower success rate than 2 rax allin. And the one where fruitdealer did it was on a 4 player map so it was even twice as much more lower chance of success. Your the only person in this thread who is stupid enough to integrate a player doing 6 pool with a player doing 2 rax allin. 6 pool is only less effective because people have figured it out and it has been around for a long time. Everytime a new cheese is developed people break out their keyboard nunchuks and start begging Blizzard for a patch - "the game is broken" we cry.. Surely constant patching and changing will severely affect the stability of the game? Why not let players figure the game out; if a new strategy is developed - let those negatively affected use their 14 hours a day practice sessions to learn how to beat it! Yes all in play is pretty lame to watch - but how the fuck is this Rain's fault? Everyone seems to be convinced that Nestea is the better player; okay - well then why did he not see this coming? Why do zergs not scout this and adapt their play; dropping a 14 hatch, knowing there will be 2 rax pressure is highly risky; there has to be better ways around this because we have seen 2 rax pressure fail? (please don't quote me and say "well IdrA and Ret seem to think 14 hatch is the best response to 2 rax; despite both of them being fucking awesome players i don't see how this is true - there has to be a better choice?) I am just a bit annoyed that Rain is suffering so much backlash for this approach; the current state of the game demands this response to early hatch play. Just my 2 cents. | ||
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:37 Moonwrath wrote: That's kind of a dumb way to see it tbh. 2 players, who I admit are insanely good(but are VERY macro oriented), say that a particular build is the best defense against early 2 rax pressure, but the evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY against them. 14 hatch loses like 80% of the time to these all ins. If something is only a 20% win rate against a certain strat, I would hardly consider that the best option. I don't understand why some zerg players feel that getting an extremely fast expansion should be God given right when you play as zerg. It's a greedy build, period. The counter to greedy builds is early pressure, period. notice that almost every other zerg is going hatch first as well? you really think every single zerg is throwing away thousands of dollars out of stubborn greed? | ||
IAttackYou
United States330 Posts
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Nyx
Rwanda460 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:36 FlamingTurd wrote: Honestly I really really freakin hope Blizzard will do something about all this simple MMM crap. Have been saying it since the very beginning and it's only gotten more refined and more bs. Add in a couple siege tanks and bunkers and it's almost impossible for a zerg to beat. Honestly, I really really hope Blizzard will doing something about all this simple zergling baneling crap. I kid, I kid, that was fucking poor to watch, todays games were some of the poorest garbage I've ever seen, I just hope the rest of the round of 8 is better. It's horrible watching some smug terran make just marines, select all of his SCVs and attack. | ||
10fps
103 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:51 IAttackYou wrote: For all of the ppl who said macro against zerg doesn't work as terran, have they watched jinro play? Please understand that its not imba, it just called being good. It is just something hard to understand unfortunately. All props to Jinro for being an incredible player but do you actually believe Moons macro is anything more than average for a Zerg pro? It's a bad example. I wanna see a good Terran like Jinro win in a pure macro game against people like Fruit Dealer, Leenock, Nestea, Idra or Ret. | ||
Confuse
2238 Posts
Otherwise who knows? If this trend continues into the next GSL season it would be a little sad | ||
fainez
United States91 Posts
Leave TSL_rain alone, he deserves to be where he is; and certainly more than anyone that is talking trash on him. | ||
CursedFeanor
Canada539 Posts
don't blame Rain for exploiting a flaw in his opponent's play! props to him and shame on Nestea! | ||
RaFeStaR
United States161 Posts
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Denizen[9]
United States649 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:48 bkrow wrote: 6 pool is only less effective because people have figured it out and it has been around for a long time. Everytime a new cheese is developed people break out their keyboard nunchuks and start begging Blizzard for a patch - "the game is broken" we cry.. Surely constant patching and changing will severely affect the stability of the game? Why not let players figure the game out; if a new strategy is developed - let those negatively affected use their 14 hours a day practice sessions to learn how to beat it! Yes all in play is pretty lame to watch - but how the fuck is this Rain's fault? Everyone seems to be convinced that Nestea is the better player; okay - well then why did he not see this coming? Why do zergs not scout this and adapt their play; dropping a 14 hatch, knowing there will be 2 rax pressure is highly risky; there has to be better ways around this because we have seen 2 rax pressure fail? (please don't quote me and say "well IdrA and Ret seem to think 14 hatch is the best response to 2 rax; despite both of them being fucking awesome players i don't see how this is true - there has to be a better choice?) I am just a bit annoyed that Rain is suffering so much backlash for this approach; the current state of the game demands this response to early hatch play. Just my 2 cents. its less effective because workers can defend it with less losses for the defense to the opponent | ||
pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:49 IdrA wrote: notice that almost every other zerg is going hatch first as well? you really think every single zerg is throwing away thousands of dollars out of stubborn greed? Very fair point - but surely in amongst the hours of practice that goes into a pro gaming team there is a better solution; or are we concluding the game is broken? | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:59 GobIin wrote: its less effective because workers can defend it with less losses for the defense to the opponent Yeah - thank you for noting the obvious; the point was it needs to be figured out ingame; not just insta-patched by Blizzard; sorry if that point wasn't clear. | ||
PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:48 bkrow wrote: 6 pool is only less effective because people have figured it out and it has been around for a long time. Everytime a new cheese is developed people break out their keyboard nunchuks and start begging Blizzard for a patch - "the game is broken" we cry.. Surely constant patching and changing will severely affect the stability of the game? Why not let players figure the game out; if a new strategy is developed - let those negatively affected use their 14 hours a day practice sessions to learn how to beat it! Yes all in play is pretty lame to watch - but how the fuck is this Rain's fault? Everyone seems to be convinced that Nestea is the better player; okay - well then why did he not see this coming? Why do zergs not scout this and adapt their play; dropping a 14 hatch, knowing there will be 2 rax pressure is highly risky; there has to be better ways around this because we have seen 2 rax pressure fail? (please don't quote me and say "well IdrA and Ret seem to think 14 hatch is the best response to 2 rax; despite both of them being fucking awesome players i don't see how this is true - there has to be a better choice?) I am just a bit annoyed that Rain is suffering so much backlash for this approach; the current state of the game demands this response to early hatch play. Just my 2 cents. While I agree that 6 pool has been much more 'figured out', I have a hard time seeing a 2rax/scv rush become that much less effective by 'figuring it out'. Maybe (and I hope) I'll be proven wrong, but I think 2rax will always be significantly stronger as an all-in than any super early pool as your workers will not die as fast (range v melee) to lings and can actually fight outright against them without taking as many losses. 6-pool is also a much more legitimate 'all-in' than 2 rax, as the amount of damage a Terran needs to do is a lot less than what a 6-pool needs to do to at least break even. Also, on close 2 player maps, normal scout timing is almost always enough for Terran to throw down an extra depot/rax to finish their wall and sacrifice a slightly delayed orbital for that. | ||
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