Koreans React to GSL Ro8 - Page 37
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BC.KoRn
Canada567 Posts
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Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:27 Plexa wrote: haha i did not know that. thanks for clearing that up PlexaNo, he was hated for bunk rushing there was MASSIVE netizen rage at the boxer vs yellow incident - they were expecting the bo5 of a lifetime and instead all they got was x3 bunker rush. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On December 07 2010 13:26 Reason.SC2 wrote: Really? You think 15 hatch is the best way to deal with a marine/scv cheese? Can we have the elitist forums where people actually need to earn posting privileges please? and then it would be you arguing with idra and ret over this viability of 14/15 hatch so i don't know why you are just disregarding this poster's position? | ||
thisblindman
Philippines50 Posts
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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:27 Plexa wrote: No, he was hated for bunk rushing there was MASSIVE netizen rage at the boxer vs yellow incident - they were expecting the bo5 of a lifetime and instead all they got was x3 bunker rush. True - but we aren't talking about boxer vs yellow "most amazing bo5 in the world" - we are talking about Nestea vs Rain; nowhere near close to being the most amazing series in sc2 - so i don't get why people are so mad? | ||
FataLe
New Zealand4407 Posts
MKP does it 1/2 his games? Baller. Rain does it 1/2 his games and apologizes? Noob. To me, Rain played it perfectly as a competitor and not as an entertainer. He came to win, he won, how is irrelevant. | ||
mookku
Finland39 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:34 Moonwrath wrote: Do you really think there is no solution to combat a 2 rax all in as zerg then? If so, that would mean something needs to be patched, however I'm inclined to believe that perhaps not enough time and practice has passed since this strat has become more popular and widely used. I mean what is Blizz going to do, patch the game every 2 months when a new strategy comes up that people can't figure out a way to stop in a couple months? I don't mean to be hostile or anything like that, it's just the game doesn't seem so broken that a terran will auto win with a certain build and Blizz doesn't know about it. I think 2 months is too soon to conclude that a certain build is unbeatable with how deep this game is. I have to say that there just is not too much depth in to this particular scenario since it happens so early in the game that the decision making involved is just whether to go hatch first and get a spine up asap or try some 1 base stuff. And sadly, neither really works in those short rush distance maps since it is not possible to transition well from 1 base builds against a terran that does not have to sacrifice economy to pull his strategy off. That means the 1 basing zerg is deciding to go all in himself, and because the 2 rax strategy is all but weak to early aggression, the zerg will lose miserably. EDIT: Actually there is one more thing a zerg could try, which is a fast inbase hatchery, which would be a little (not much though) easier to defend early on, but... not very optimistic about that solution either... not sure if the pro's have put much thought to this possibility? | ||
Eternalmisfit
United States643 Posts
All TvZ GSL game spoilers + Show Spoiler + RO64 NesTea - Jys Game1: Macro game Game2: Macro game Game3: Early pressure build Littleboy - JookToJung Game1: 2 base Banshee/Viking Game2: Marine-Maruader timing push (all-in) Maka - Sleep Game1: fake 2 Rax into expo Game2: Zerg fail 6-pool Rain - Dreamiz Game1: Marine-SCV all-in Game2: Fast expo Rainbow - NewDawn Game1: Two rax Marine/SCV into 2 port Banshee Game2: Two Rax into 4-Rax push Bitbybit - haypro Game1: Marine/SCV allin Game2: Marine/SCV allin JSL - Kyrix Game1: Fast expo Game2: Fast factory/port followed by tank cliff drop MarineKing - Nexline Did not happen Leenock - Clide Game1: Fast expo Game2: Thor drop on cliff Game3: Fast expo Hyperdub - Max Game1: Proxy 2 Rax + base Rax + bunker at natural (did not bring SCVs) Game2: Fast expo Game3: Bunker block Alive - Zenio Game1: Expo into Marine/Tank push (Macro game) Game2: Blue flame hellions into macro game Polt - Joon Game1: 3 Reapers into Expo in Timing Push Game2: Reactor Hellions into macro game Jinro - Drug Game1: Marine-hellions into Tank cliff drop Game2: Two Rax pressure into Expo into macro game Moon - ButterflyEffect Game1: E-bay block into single Hellion/Basnhee into MMM timing push Game2: 1 base reaper into macro Game3: 2 Rax pressure to force lings into Marine/Tank Check - Destination Game1: Early Stim/Fast expo into 5 rax MM Game2: Reaper into 5 Rax mass marine allin RO32 Bitbybit - NewDawn Game1: 2 Rax Marine/SCV allin Game2: 2 port basnhee into some weird everything all-in Fruitdealer - Sc Game1: 2 Rax + bunker block into macro Game2: Expansion build Game3: Macro game Ret - Best Game1: 1 Barracks FE into macro game Game2: Marine/Hellion/Medivac harass into 2 port banshees Game3: MMM 1-base all-in (SCVs not pulled) MarineKing - Monster Game1: 1 rax expo into mass MM Game2: Marine/SCV attack into MM (not sure how many SCV's pulled i.e. allin or not) Game3: 2 Rax marine pressure into expand into 4 rax marine attack July - Alive Game1: Hellion harass into macro game Game2: Attempted 4 marine/1 hellion harass into expo Jinro - Moon Game1: Fast expo into macro game Game2: 4 Marine/1 hellion harass into m acro game MVP-Idra Game1: Early marine pressure into Expo into macro game Game2: 2 Rax + bunker block Game3: 2 Rax marine pressure into expo into MM stim timing attack Ro16 BitbyBite - FD AFAIK, both games were Marine/SCV allins NesTea - Maka have yet to watch these games and no summaries available MarineKing - Leenock have yet to watch these games and no summaries available People, in general, seem to be exaggerating the amount of games involving Marine/SCV all-ins. Only Bitbybit and TSL_Rain have used that strategy on a regular basis. Apart from that we have seen a wide range of strategies/builds employed be terrans which have a healthy mix of bunker block/early game pressure/timing attacks/expo builds. The SCV allins seemed to have worked better for the two players who used it while other people got eliminated. This might be coincidental or cor-relational on which I am no expert to comment. Unfortunately, the community seems to have a short-term memory and can only remember the latest few series. For e.g., if the Clide-Leenock series had happened in Ro8 swapping places with Rain-NesTea series, a big chunk of the same community which is now heralding this GSL as the worst would have said it is the best GSL till date. I am not debating the TvZ balance issues but debating the overall quality of the games in this GSL will be at par with the games in previous GSL but people tend to give weightage to later rounds which skews the 'quality' of this GSL. | ||
theqat
United States2856 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:47 bkrow wrote: True - but we aren't talking about boxer vs yellow "most amazing bo5 in the world" - we are talking about Nestea vs Rain; nowhere near close to being the most amazing series in sc2 - so i don't get why people are so mad? here is why: nestea, a former champion, is taking on rain, who is perceived by the community at large as the inferior player. Yet Rain won using a build that can be pressure, all-in, or high-econ at the drop of a hat, including attacking with a large number of workers twice--a move that is widely regarded as acknowledging that you cannot beat the other player straight up. zerg cannot scout or predict which form the build will take and what's more, zerg cannot compete without 14h if the terran chooses the high-econ form. it's a rotten situation for a best-of-x--you can do something drastic to counter 2rax on ladder and keep winning as long as you don't hit the same player twice or more, but in a BOx they're gonna catch on really quick, particularly at gsl level for all that, i don't fault either nestea or rain in particular. the fault is more likely with the maps, mules, and the difficulty of playing straight up TvZ | ||
STenSatsu
United States31 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:19 pieisamazing wrote: If there's a good thing coming out of this new patch, it'll be that 2 pylons at the ramp bullshit being removed. Is there some reason every zerg decided to stop doing the 1 drone patrol this GSL? | ||
andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I find it appalling that people are blaming players for using cheese, all-ins, or other "gimicky" strategies to win games. It's a tournament. You play to win. Period. If I knew for a fact that I would win every game in the GSL if I worker rushed, I would absolutely worker rush enough times to win each best of X series. I may try other strategies once in a while, but only if I knew I could still pull an auto-win with my worker rush strategy. If the crowd is going to be pissed at any players for crappy games, they should be pissed at the players who are notoriously good but underestimate their opponents. Players who lose to cheese because they don't scout. Players who get too greedy. Those types of players. This. Fruitdealer and Nestea are both at fault for these things. Perhaps they are the better players on average... but in those series, it didn't show at ALL. Nestea didn't even TRY to adapt.. in a game of strategy, FD lost the last game because he didn't even TRY to scout his opponents base. Please, all you zerg players QQing out there, it's time to wake up to the fact that, maybe, JUST maybe, these players were actually outplayed? Oh and PS - no one was ever sure that 14 hatch was safe against all ins... until NesTea defended it against Foxer's play in the GSL 2 Finals. Now no one thinks 14 hatch is safe... until someone figures out a new timing or a new way of defending. It's a dynamic game that has changed so many times in just these 4 months that it BLOWS my mind, all the people saying the game or matchups are broken are just acting stupid. | ||
tournamentnow
Australia111 Posts
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2424136 | ||
Selith
United States238 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:11 tournamentnow wrote: anyone wanna translate a portion of this like a brief summary? it concerns this thread http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2424136 It's just a quick recap of what's been going on. If anyone really wants to, I will translate it. | ||
zalu
United States10 Posts
It then follows that spectators should want to watch players playing to win. You were not happy with the result this time? That's life. It happens. A spectator should never ever want players to not play to win, even if a given result isn't to your liking; or even if the manner of which that result was attained isn't to your liking. The integrity of competition should be maintained. Cheese doesn't exist. There are games. There are game players. There are winners and losers. The end. I'm all for balance talk. I'm all for discussing the state of the game. But to criticize Rain or any player playing to win is absolutely and utterly absurd. If a large portion of the SC2 community is prone to criticizing players that play to win, then the community has a lot of growing up to do. | ||
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:48 Eternalmisfit wrote: All builds attempted by Terrans in TvZ from Ro64 through Ro16 All TvZ GSL game spoilers + Show Spoiler + RO64 NesTea - Jys Game1: Macro game Game2: Macro game Game3: Early pressure build Littleboy - JookToJung Game1: 2 base Banshee/Viking Game2: Marine-Maruader timing push (all-in) Maka - Sleep Game1: fake 2 Rax into expo Game2: Zerg fail 6-pool Rain - Dreamiz Game1: Marine-SCV all-in Game2: Fast expo Rainbow - NewDawn Game1: Two rax Marine/SCV into 2 port Banshee Game2: Two Rax into 4-Rax push Bitbybit - haypro Game1: Marine/SCV allin Game2: Marine/SCV allin JSL - Kyrix Game1: Fast expo Game2: Fast factory/port followed by tank cliff drop MarineKing - Nexline Did not happen Leenock - Clide Game1: Fast expo Game2: Thor drop on cliff Game3: Fast expo Hyperdub - Max Game1: Proxy 2 Rax + base Rax + bunker at natural (did not bring SCVs) Game2: Fast expo Game3: Bunker block Alive - Zenio Game1: Expo into Marine/Tank push (Macro game) Game2: Blue flame hellions into macro game Polt - Joon Game1: 3 Reapers into Expo in Timing Push Game2: Reactor Hellions into macro game Jinro - Drug Game1: Marine-hellions into Tank cliff drop Game2: Two Rax pressure into Expo into macro game Moon - ButterflyEffect Game1: E-bay block into single Hellion/Basnhee into MMM timing push Game2: 1 base reaper into macro Game3: 2 Rax pressure to force lings into Marine/Tank Check - Destination Game1: Early Stim/Fast expo into 5 rax MM Game2: Reaper into 5 Rax mass marine allin RO32 Bitbybit - NewDawn Game1: 2 Rax Marine/SCV allin Game2: 2 port basnhee into some weird everything all-in Fruitdealer - Sc Game1: 2 Rax + bunker block into macro Game2: Expansion build Game3: Macro game Ret - Best Game1: 1 Barracks FE into macro game Game2: Marine/Hellion/Medivac harass into 2 port banshees Game3: MMM 1-base all-in (SCVs not pulled) MarineKing - Monster Game1: 1 rax expo into mass MM Game2: Marine/SCV attack into MM (not sure how many SCV's pulled i.e. allin or not) Game3: 2 Rax marine pressure into expand into 4 rax marine attack July - Alive Game1: Hellion harass into macro game Game2: Attempted 4 marine/1 hellion harass into expo Jinro - Moon Game1: Fast expo into macro game Game2: 4 Marine/1 hellion harass into m acro game MVP-Idra Game1: Early marine pressure into Expo into macro game Game2: 2 Rax + bunker block Game3: 2 Rax marine pressure into expo into MM stim timing attack Ro16 BitbyBite - FD AFAIK, both games were Marine/SCV allins NesTea - Maka have yet to watch these games and no summaries available MarineKing - Leenock have yet to watch these games and no summaries available People, in general, seem to be exaggerating the amount of games involving Marine/SCV all-ins. Only Bitbybit and TSL_Rain have used that strategy on a regular basis. Apart from that we have seen a wide range of strategies/builds employed be terrans which have a healthy mix of bunker block/early game pressure/timing attacks/expo builds. The SCV allins seemed to have worked better for the two players who used it while other people got eliminated. This might be coincidental or cor-relational on which I am no expert to comment. Unfortunately, the community seems to have a short-term memory and can only remember the latest few series. For e.g., if the Clide-Leenock series had happened in Ro8 swapping places with Rain-NesTea series, a big chunk of the same community which is now heralding this GSL as the worst would have said it is the best GSL till date. I am not debating the TvZ balance issues but debating the overall quality of the games in this GSL will be at par with the games in previous GSL but people tend to give weightage to later rounds which skews the 'quality' of this GSL. What? The ones that aren't marine/scv all-ins are those plays that rely on not being scouted (aka can never become standard). The rest are almost exclusively timing attacks that are essentially all-in. And guess what. The others that do heavy tank marine play are the ones that do fine... up until they can't transition at all into the late game! Which is the entire point! As the game progresses, it starts tipping in the favor of Zerg, assuming neither side inflicted serious economic blows on the opponent. The exception has really been Moon vs Jinro, where I would argue that Jinro simply outplayed Moon, and many agree with me (and it seems many disagree as well). This is coming from a former Zerg player (from the start of the beta) that felt that balance was heavily tipping in favor of Zerg (ASSUMING you could hold off any all-in) since Terran could no longer do certain strats viably (aka Roach range KILLED mech strats entirely). Consequently I switched to Terran on ladder, and my opinion hasn't changed, I still feel the same way. Terran needs to rely on causing significant economic damage through strategic plays or lose to an equally competent opponent. I'm not commenting on the balance on ZvP whatsoever. | ||
Eternalmisfit
United States643 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:32 FabledIntegral wrote: What? The ones that aren't marine/scv all-ins are those plays that rely on not being scouted (aka can never become standard). The rest are almost exclusively timing attacks that are essentially all-in. And guess what. The others that do heavy tank marine play are the ones that do fine... up until they can't transition at all into the late game! Which is the entire point! As the game progresses, it starts tipping in the favor of Zerg, assuming neither side inflicted serious economic blows on the opponent. Nestea - Jys G1 and G2 Clide - Leenock G1 and G3 Jinro most games Maka - Sleep G1 JSL - Kyrix G1 Hyperdub - Max G2 Alive - Zenio G1 and G2 Polt - Joon G2 MarineKing - 1 Rax Expo builds (which are not all-in) July - Alive G1 and G2 These games are mostly macro-oriented games. There are other games which I did not list which were more of early pressure into timing attack (which were not all ins) like MVP-Idra G1. Note that I never said that I was commentating on the state of the balance of TvZ match-up. I clearly stated that I am not expert on that. I am commenting that GSL 3 has had a lot of different TvZ builds some of which won while others lost. In this thread alone, multiple posters are said that they only see T's doing all-ins which is clearly not the case. It is not a Marine/SCV all-in fest (or even an all in fest). People are just having a selective memory of the games that are happening in GSL. | ||
Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On December 07 2010 14:42 bkrow wrote: Quoted for truth; Comparing cheese and all-in strategies to "cheating? Maphacking, match fixing, paying people off?" that is the most fucking ridiculous thing i have read on TL in a while I actually couldn't help but laugh out loud when reading that post. According to the best zerg players, there is no legit way to counter this at a reasonable rate, thus they are abusing a broken strategy while it works to win money (5rax reaper anyone?). How is that different from cheating? And it's not a strawman, stop spouting that bs "play to win" line if you don't want to answer my question. Anything goes, right? Sorry that I am playing to win my argument. | ||
Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
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positron.
634 Posts
On December 07 2010 15:46 Fa1nT wrote: According to the best zerg players, there is no legit way to counter this at a reasonable rate, thus they are abusing a broken strategy while it works to win money (5rax reaper anyone?). How is that different from cheating? And it's not a strawman, stop spouting that bs "play to win" line if you don't want to answer my question. Anything goes, right? Sorry that I am playing to win my argument. This is the most twisted logic I have seen in awhile. There is no rule banning marines scv all in therefore it is not cheating. Maphacking or fixing is obviously against the rules. What is wrong with you? | ||
Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
Injustice, I say! | ||
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