If I knew that each game in the final match was going to end within 5 minutes, I wouldn't waste my time watching it. There's no suspense. No progression of style of play.
Why allow races to tech up to different units if the game could be decided by microing just 2 unit types?
I am almost certain that the GSL will lose viewers if ALL tvz matches came down to scv+marine all-in. The spirit of competition is worthless if no one cares to watch it. It kills the appeal and spells doom for e-sport community of sc2.
Quite frankly theres a super freaking easy way to stop the easy pressure... don't blow 300 minerals on a fast expand and instead /gasp when you see the double barracks you go pool first get an immediate queen and 2 spines and some lings. Extend the creep to the natural and expand.
I'm sick and tired of zerg going 15 freaking hatch into 14 pool and being pissed that the most greedy possible zerg build can be punished by an all in. WELL DUH. On game 5 nestea would have been super safe if he had made a few more spines and scouted properly by saccing speedlings.
On December 07 2010 15:32 FabledIntegral wrote: What? The ones that aren't marine/scv all-ins are those plays that rely on not being scouted (aka can never become standard). The rest are almost exclusively timing attacks that are essentially all-in. And guess what. The others that do heavy tank marine play are the ones that do fine... up until they can't transition at all into the late game! Which is the entire point! As the game progresses, it starts tipping in the favor of Zerg, assuming neither side inflicted serious economic blows on the opponent.
Nestea - Jys G1 and G2 Clide - Leenock G1 and G3 Jinro most games Maka - Sleep G1 JSL - Kyrix G1 Hyperdub - Max G2 Alive - Zenio G1 and G2 Polt - Joon G2 MarineKing - 1 Rax Expo builds (which are not all-in) July - Alive G1 and G2
These games are mostly macro-oriented games. There are other games which I did not list which were more of early pressure into timing attack (which were not all ins) like MVP-Idra G1. Note that I never said that I was commentating on the state of the balance of TvZ match-up. I clearly stated that I am not expert on that. I am commenting that GSL 3 has had a lot of different TvZ builds some of which won while others lost. In this thread alone, multiple posters are said that they only see T's doing all-ins which is clearly not the case. It is not a Marine/SCV all-in fest (or even an all in fest). People are just having a selective memory of the games that are happening in GSL.
I think they're referring to the games that Terran are advancing upon are largely due to all-ins. Aka, Zergs are getting knocked out due to SCV marine all-ins. Could be wrong though. That's what I'd assume, but I don't have anything to back it up atm. Still though, it's undeniable the marine/SCV is still seeming to be a very dominant strategy employed.
Zergs will find a way around it. Surely you cannot buff Zerg anymore, it's becoming broken. I don't know what these Zerg QQers want, to see a game where Zerg can take 5 bases easily and just roflstomp everybody? Is that their idea of fairness?
Boo-fucking-hoo, Zerg players won GSL 2 times. Just try to find a solution, even if it takes time. It's not like other races had easy time.
I would hope Kiwikaki, Huk etc. start QQing as well, so that we see a more balanced thread distribution on here. It's getting a bit ridiculous that Zerg QQ is accepted this easily due to having 1-2 progamers among QQers.
PS Also, a lot of issues are related to maps, not to rax as it is, IMO.
I think Rain played pretty well used a start that counters Nestea BO.Boxer bunker rushed yellow 3 times in a row and people cheer for him and called him a baller now Rain all-ins Nestea and he is a bad player and less skilled?! i don't think so...
Who says the hatch needs to be at your expo if larvae are the issue?[/QUOTE]
Because then you'll end up with marines at your ramp, in a choke point, with bunkers building at the bottom of the ramp, while Terran's income is higher than yours due to mules, and his probably taking his expo.
Hatch first in your own base is not the solution![/QUOTE]
Why not 14 hatch in your base right at the ramp and then immediately follow it up with a couple of spine crawlers right there? It seems like the crawlers would resolve the bunker contain issue and you wouldn't even have to make many zerglings, but it's just a thought. Comments?
On December 07 2010 15:32 FabledIntegral wrote: What? The ones that aren't marine/scv all-ins are those plays that rely on not being scouted (aka can never become standard). The rest are almost exclusively timing attacks that are essentially all-in. And guess what. The others that do heavy tank marine play are the ones that do fine... up until they can't transition at all into the late game! Which is the entire point! As the game progresses, it starts tipping in the favor of Zerg, assuming neither side inflicted serious economic blows on the opponent.
Nestea - Jys G1 and G2 Clide - Leenock G1 and G3 Jinro most games Maka - Sleep G1 JSL - Kyrix G1 Hyperdub - Max G2 Alive - Zenio G1 and G2 Polt - Joon G2 MarineKing - 1 Rax Expo builds (which are not all-in) July - Alive G1 and G2
These games are mostly macro-oriented games. There are other games which I did not list which were more of early pressure into timing attack (which were not all ins) like MVP-Idra G1. Note that I never said that I was commentating on the state of the balance of TvZ match-up. I clearly stated that I am not expert on that. I am commenting that GSL 3 has had a lot of different TvZ builds some of which won while others lost. In this thread alone, multiple posters are said that they only see T's doing all-ins which is clearly not the case. It is not a Marine/SCV all-in fest (or even an all in fest). People are just having a selective memory of the games that are happening in GSL.
I think they're referring to the games that Terran are advancing upon are largely due to all-ins. Aka, Zergs are getting knocked out due to SCV marine all-ins. Could be wrong though. That's what I'd assume, but I don't have anything to back it up atm. Still though, it's undeniable the marine/SCV is still seeming to be a very dominant strategy employed.
the thing is... the marine/scv all-ins games yielded a much better winrate than the macro games (against zerg at least).
the whole 2 rax tvz issue simply shows the problems small maps create.
If you don't expand due to marine pressure, you'll fall even further behind. If the terran went mineral only and you are building spines on one base, he's going to take his natural before you do and there isn't going to be a thing you can do to stop it. I've had them set up bunkers right outside my base, and it takes a major investment both in money, and more importantly time, to break.
He's playing to win 87,000$, I don't see why he shouldn't use every trick in his arsenal. I'm a Zerg player and seeing marine all-in is boring, but it's Blizzard's job to "fix" it, not the player's job to play honorably in an 87k USD tournament.
On December 07 2010 03:53 LazE wrote: How could you blame a player for playing the way that he believes maximises his chance of winning? Isn't that the whole point of competition? Don't you think it would be sad if e.g. fruitdealer won the GSL because terrans were too polite to do a particular strategy?
As a spectator, I want strategies like this to become rare. But I think that will only happen if players learn to play well enough against them that they're not worth doing, or Blizzard manages to patch the game so it's not worth doing.
iv been buying the GSL season tickets and love the excitement the quick pushes bring to the matches. Some engagements have the zerg just holding it by the skin of his teeth to either punish the other player for it or to setup his macro. Its one of the many things i think people make a big deal of that this is currently something that is going on and popular but within sometime people will understand it more counter it and be better for it. I feel in no way upset over rains play i think hes in a big tourney hes smart and he did what it takes to win like a real champion. Next season they will easily have my money with the hopes of even more close matches with tight pressure in either match up.
JSL - Kyrix Game1: Fast expo Game2: Fast factory/port followed by tank cliff drop
MarineKing - Nexline Did not happen
Leenock - Clide Game1: Fast expo Game2: Thor drop on cliff Game3: Fast expo
Hyperdub - Max Game1: Proxy 2 Rax + base Rax + bunker at natural (did not bring SCVs) Game2: Fast expo Game3: Bunker block
Alive - Zenio Game1: Expo into Marine/Tank push (Macro game) Game2: Blue flame hellions into macro game
Polt - Joon Game1: 3 Reapers into Expo in Timing Push Game2: Reactor Hellions into macro game
Jinro - Drug Game1: Marine-hellions into Tank cliff drop Game2: Two Rax pressure into Expo into macro game
Moon - ButterflyEffect Game1: E-bay block into single Hellion/Basnhee into MMM timing push Game2: 1 base reaper into macro Game3: 2 Rax pressure to force lings into Marine/Tank
Check - Destination Game1: Early Stim/Fast expo into 5 rax MM Game2: Reaper into 5 Rax mass marine allin
RO32
Bitbybit - NewDawn Game1: 2 Rax Marine/SCV allin Game2: 2 port basnhee into some weird everything all-in
Fruitdealer - Sc Game1: 2 Rax + bunker block into macro Game2: Expansion build Game3: Macro game
Ret - Best Game1: 1 Barracks FE into macro game Game2: Marine/Hellion/Medivac harass into 2 port banshees Game3: MMM 1-base all-in (SCVs not pulled)
MarineKing - Monster Game1: 1 rax expo into mass MM Game2: Marine/SCV attack into MM (not sure how many SCV's pulled i.e. allin or not) Game3: 2 Rax marine pressure into expand into 4 rax marine attack
July - Alive Game1: Hellion harass into macro game Game2: Attempted 4 marine/1 hellion harass into expo
Jinro - Moon Game1: Fast expo into macro game Game2: 4 Marine/1 hellion harass into m acro game
MVP-Idra Game1: Early marine pressure into Expo into macro game Game2: 2 Rax + bunker block Game3: 2 Rax marine pressure into expo into MM stim timing attack
Ro16
BitbyBite - FD AFAIK, both games were Marine/SCV allins
NesTea - Maka have yet to watch these games and no summaries available
MarineKing - Leenock have yet to watch these games and no summaries available
People, in general, seem to be exaggerating the amount of games involving Marine/SCV all-ins. Only Bitbybit and TSL_Rain have used that strategy on a regular basis. Apart from that we have seen a wide range of strategies/builds employed be terrans which have a healthy mix of bunker block/early game pressure/timing attacks/expo builds. The SCV allins seemed to have worked better for the two players who used it while other people got eliminated. This might be coincidental or cor-relational on which I am no expert to comment.
Unfortunately, the community seems to have a short-term memory and can only remember the latest few series. For e.g., if the Clide-Leenock series had happened in Ro8 swapping places with Rain-NesTea series, a big chunk of the same community which is now heralding this GSL as the worst would have said it is the best GSL till date. I am not debating the TvZ balance issues but debating the overall quality of the games in this GSL will be at par with the games in previous GSL but people tend to give weightage to later rounds which skews the 'quality' of this GSL.
You conveniently left out the maps that the games were played on, among other details.
On December 07 2010 15:32 FabledIntegral wrote: What? The ones that aren't marine/scv all-ins are those plays that rely on not being scouted (aka can never become standard). The rest are almost exclusively timing attacks that are essentially all-in. And guess what. The others that do heavy tank marine play are the ones that do fine... up until they can't transition at all into the late game! Which is the entire point! As the game progresses, it starts tipping in the favor of Zerg, assuming neither side inflicted serious economic blows on the opponent.
Nestea - Jys G1 and G2 Clide - Leenock G1 and G3 Jinro most games Maka - Sleep G1 JSL - Kyrix G1 Hyperdub - Max G2 Alive - Zenio G1 and G2 Polt - Joon G2 MarineKing - 1 Rax Expo builds (which are not all-in) July - Alive G1 and G2
These games are mostly macro-oriented games. There are other games which I did not list which were more of early pressure into timing attack (which were not all ins) like MVP-Idra G1. Note that I never said that I was commentating on the state of the balance of TvZ match-up. I clearly stated that I am not expert on that. I am commenting that GSL 3 has had a lot of different TvZ builds some of which won while others lost. In this thread alone, multiple posters are said that they only see T's doing all-ins which is clearly not the case. It is not a Marine/SCV all-in fest (or even an all in fest). People are just having a selective memory of the games that are happening in GSL.
Interesting. You conveniently left out the maps in your post too! Also, other major details such as the lengths of the games and who won.
On December 07 2010 14:48 FataLe wrote: Wait I don't get it?
MKP does it 1/2 his games? Baller.
Rain does it 1/2 his games and apologizes? Noob.
To me, Rain played it perfectly as a competitor and not as an entertainer. He came to win, he won, how is irrelevant.
MKP lost to Nestea in the end, Zergs are ok with that therefore he is baller / best player ever / a proper Terran player with great skill.
Rain knocked out Nestea and FD lost right after (to Toss "cheese"lololo) therefore Zerg fanboys butthurt and Rain is a scrub / noob / bronze.
I think Incontrol said something similar in a SotG ages ago half jokingly but probably with lots of truth behind it regarding how Artosis & Idra react to losing / winning games.
Of course I wouldn't blame Rain for doing whatever he can to win. But of course Blizzard balance team should take the blame here. Terran has overtaken Protoss as the EZ mode race with that cheesy all in builds + bunker cheese. oh god i mean seriously? After all these nerfs Terran is still..... well this is ridiculous.
How am I supposed to live with myself as a Terran PLAYER!!! RAHHH!!! oh wait
On December 07 2010 15:32 FabledIntegral wrote: What? The ones that aren't marine/scv all-ins are those plays that rely on not being scouted (aka can never become standard). The rest are almost exclusively timing attacks that are essentially all-in. And guess what. The others that do heavy tank marine play are the ones that do fine... up until they can't transition at all into the late game! Which is the entire point! As the game progresses, it starts tipping in the favor of Zerg, assuming neither side inflicted serious economic blows on the opponent.
Nestea - Jys G1 and G2 Clide - Leenock G1 and G3 Jinro most games Maka - Sleep G1 JSL - Kyrix G1 Hyperdub - Max G2 Alive - Zenio G1 and G2 Polt - Joon G2 MarineKing - 1 Rax Expo builds (which are not all-in) July - Alive G1 and G2
These games are mostly macro-oriented games. There are other games which I did not list which were more of early pressure into timing attack (which were not all ins) like MVP-Idra G1. Note that I never said that I was commentating on the state of the balance of TvZ match-up. I clearly stated that I am not expert on that. I am commenting that GSL 3 has had a lot of different TvZ builds some of which won while others lost. In this thread alone, multiple posters are said that they only see T's doing all-ins which is clearly not the case. It is not a Marine/SCV all-in fest (or even an all in fest). People are just having a selective memory of the games that are happening in GSL.
I think they're referring to the games that Terran are advancing upon are largely due to all-ins. Aka, Zergs are getting knocked out due to SCV marine all-ins. Could be wrong though. That's what I'd assume, but I don't have anything to back it up atm. Still though, it's undeniable the marine/SCV is still seeming to be a very dominant strategy employed.
the thing is... the marine/scv all-ins games yielded a much better winrate than the macro games (against zerg at least).
the whole 2 rax tvz issue simply shows the problems small maps create.
now im no expert but i think its kinda nesteas fault for trying to go 14 hatch every game. its a little too greedy and as idra found out at MLG dallas its not really very safe. but thats just how i see it, take it with a grain of salt.
I don't claim to know enough about the game to speak authoritatively on balance. I can say that it is ridiculous for people to blame Rain for winning in the manner in which he did.
I'm interested in Starcraft as a genuine contest. I not going pay $20 for tampered games.