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On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote: I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat... True but it's very hard to defend against this type of all-in.
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On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push.
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I'm not a fan of Terran game-play either, but it's ridiculous that a pro-gamer caves into the incessant whining of the Zerg community. Rain SHOULD be ashamed, not for his tactics but FOR APOLOGIZING that he used them! Do you think a single Zerg apologized in Brood War for 4 pooling?
Edit:
On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote: Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push.
Oh forgot to address the above post which proves my point btw. Although “over a hundred” Zerg posts defends that the “greedy” build is the “safest against this push” it is not the opinion of the GSL commentators (i.e. Artosis) nor is evidenced by how other Zergs handled this through-out the tournament. As soon as you suspect the rush is coming, stop droning! Build spine crawlers and lings - defense - just like every other race has to when they FE! Elementary my dear Watson!
I can't believe I'm defending Terran!
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LOL, what the fuck. Did he cheat? Did he do something that was banned from the tournament? Was it against good sportsmanship?
Do these players try to qualify for GSL to entertain the viewers, or do they perhaps do it to WIN THAT THING? Should Jinro apology if he wins because his opponent made a mistake? o_0 Always thought Starcraft was the game that you win by making fewer mistakes.
So this is either a balance issue or a Nestea issue, but why the hell should it be a Rain issue.
These are pro player on pro teams, they play to win tournaments, because you can't chow down some fans when you are hungry.
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On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush.
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Russian Federation370 Posts
People just get that SC2 is all about cheese? Small maps, weak workers and imbalance t1 units
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On December 09 2010 12:33 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush.
Right...that works! Then the terran will suicide up your ramp, not bunker contain you and get way way ahead... At least be reasonable.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 09 2010 12:33 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush. I'm making up numbers here, but they're enough of a ballpark estimate to illustrate the point.
If you put the hatchery down with a spine crawler and save larva, you might have a 60% chance of losing to the marine/SCV attack 4 minutes into the game.
If you don't put the hatchery down and build 3 spine crawlers above your ramp instead, you'll survive the marine/SCV attack but will have a 100% chance of losing 10 minutes into the game.
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On December 09 2010 12:52 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 12:33 lowercase wrote:On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush. I'm making up numbers here, but they're enough of a ballpark estimate to illustrate the point. If you put the hatchery down with a spine crawler and save larva, you might have a 60% chance of losing to the marine/SCV attack 4 minutes into the game. If you don't put the hatchery down and build 3 spine crawlers above your ramp instead, you'll survive the marine/SCV attack but will have a 100% chance of losing 10 minutes into the game.
Exactly. It's like saying in chat "I'm going 1 base with static defense, plz macro up and beat me"
as soon as T sees that he can cut marines and macro up and go tanks or whatever.
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I see nothing wrong with his playstyle. As many have said you go into a tournament to win. Why not do whatever gives you the best chances at that?
Handicapping yourself because it is not the most exciting way to win does not sound smart to me when it is your money you might live with on the line.
This is a balance issue not a player issue.
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On December 09 2010 12:33 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush.
By doing that, guess what you're NOT doin bro. You're not building Drones. Your economy is going to be in shambles and that Terran contain as he expands is going to destroy you 10 minutes into the game.
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Russian Federation370 Posts
Don't hate the playa, hate the game. /end thread
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On December 09 2010 12:52 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 12:33 lowercase wrote:On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush. I'm making up numbers here, but they're enough of a ballpark estimate to illustrate the point. If you put the hatchery down with a spine crawler and save larva, you might have a 60% chance of losing to the marine/SCV attack 4 minutes into the game. If you don't put the hatchery down and build 3 spine crawlers above your ramp instead, you'll survive the marine/SCV attack but will have a 100% chance of losing 10 minutes into the game.
You know you are basically saying that zerg is underpowered right? If zerg at best has a 40% chance of winning then you are kinda saying that either zerg is UP or terran is OP.
I'm not sure i buy that.
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On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote: I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat...
the pros (idra,ret,nestea) claim it is actually near impossible. so maybe you know better than them and should teach them the way of the samurai
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On December 09 2010 10:48 Fwiffo wrote:I'm not a fan of Terran game-play either, but it's ridiculous that a pro-gamer caves into the incessant whining of the Zerg community. Rain SHOULD be ashamed, not for his tactics but FOR APOLOGIZING that he used them! Do you think a single Zerg apologized in Brood War for 4 pooling? Edit: Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote: Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Oh forgot to address the above post which proves my point btw. Although “over a hundred” Zerg posts defends that the “greedy” build is the “safest against this push” it is not the opinion of the GSL commentators (i.e. Artosis) nor is evidenced by how other Zergs handled this through-out the tournament. As soon as you suspect the rush is coming, stop droning! Build spine crawlers and lings - defense - just like every other race has to when they FE! Elementary my dear Watson! I can't believe I'm defending Terran!
You're so ignorant on the matter.
1. Artosis has conceded his earlier beliefs about it not being the safest. So he's an awful person to use for your argument. 2. You don't drone at ALL at the beginning vs tworax. You literally are pumping Zerglings as fast as you can. However, after you have enough to push back a tworax, then you start droning. There's two times you can die. First is when you're NEVER droning and you're making lings asap, and then there's another in a later timing window when you start droning up again. It is during this time Zerg is playing blind, and you don't know whether or not Terran decided to expo (in which you'll be behind if you're still on like 17 drones and he has more harvesters + mules, or you'll be crushed by an all-in if you started droning again).
No it's not impossible to stop. But by god, you're suggestions about utterly ignorant. Amazing you say it's "elementary."
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The marine/scv all-in has been around since pretty early in the beta. They nerfed SCV health partially because of it.
Really, it wasn't "too strong" until a high-profile Zerg lost to it. Or maybe it's because Terrans started doing it a lot after the more standard 1 rax FE started getting crushed a lot. Regardless, the build has been used for months and months, but has only become the new IMBA very recently.
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On December 07 2010 03:20 regulator_mk wrote: Rain's apology makes sense to me. He's sorry you're not getting your $20 worth. But he's not about to give up thousands of dollars to make you feel better about your $20.
this. I also appreciate the apology. Hopefully we will see some better play out of him now that he's had a few more days to prep.
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It's not hard to stop, Nestea brought it on himself for doing the ol' 14 hatch with no preparation. If he's really so great he can afford not getting a gigantic economy super quickly.
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To those saying you cant play a macro style game agianst zerg as terran, just look at most of Jinro's games, especially his Ro32 against Moon. that Scrap game was wonderfully done.
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This thread would handsomely benefit from being split into different subforums discussing specific topics, because now it's just a chaotic mixture of:
- why/why not 13 hatch vs 2bbs
- the righteousness of Rain's actions in relation to progaming
- the righteousness of Rain's actions in relation to weight of responsibility (game or player?)
- discussion about balance vs evolution of meta-game
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