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Russian Federation370 Posts
On December 09 2010 13:34 Darkbane wrote: To those saying you cant play a macro style game agianst zerg as terran, just look at most of Jinro's games, especially his Ro32 against Moon. that Scrap game was wonderfully done. Moon play like WC3 n00b, every average broodwar Zerg know that atack siege mode tanks and bunkers is suicide.
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From a YGosu interview with ITR on March 18th.
YGosu: In my opinion, there are too many All-in rushes in SC II, and a lot of games are decided by one major battle. What do you think about this?
IntotheRainbow: These days when top ranked players face each other, there’s way too much proxy barracks, proxy gates, zerg+baneling allins, etc. [. . .] For example, people have given me so much shit for doing the marine + mass SCV cheese rush, which means they’ve had to deal with it constantly, against many other opponents. It goes to show how strong that build is, if it keeps getting so much use. Even if you stop this all-in, it changes your late game considerably.
The build has been around forever. And it has only just been nerfed by the patches.
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On December 09 2010 13:28 OmegaSyrus wrote: It's not hard to stop, Nestea brought it on himself for doing the ol' 14 hatch with no preparation. If he's really so great he can afford not getting a gigantic economy super quickly. Nestea was greedy and he payed for it, being a pro Z player he knows what T can do during those early pivotal moments when Z is FE.
Rain had no reason to apologize, he played to win and he surely did. I prefer if it had been a macro game but a win is a win.
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Well this is the problem Its not that nestea or other zerg cant defend this but at what cost? and i agree with darkbane, Terran can macro too 3 base terran is OP lol while they can defend their 3rd and so on xp easily Zerg cant
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This is ridiculous, if scv + marine is not a reasonable strategy, then why not let stacraft 2 just have 10,000 minerals + 5,000 gas for each player at beginning so we can all "enjoy" macro game every time. Nestea's strategy had holes, shouldn't be too greedy and blame your opponent "cheese".
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I think people need to realise that this style of play is not a balance issue at all.
If the probability of rain winning with an all in is greater then the probability of winning via a macro game he will all in more often regardless of balance.
e.g. lets pretend terran was incredibly overpowered. They win 80% of match at a macro level and 90% with all in cheese. guess what? People will still all in cheese. because your more likely to win. Its not a competition about morals. Its a competitive tournament.
If Blizzard are of the opinion that they prefer long macro style games, then change terran so macro is more effective then cheese. Relative overall balances between races is irrelevant.
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On December 09 2010 14:39 ehalf wrote: This is ridiculous, if scv + marine is not a reasonable strategy, then why not let stacraft 2 just have 10,000 minerals + 5,000 gas for each player at beginning so we can all "enjoy" macro game every time. Nestea's strategy had holes, shouldn't be too greedy and blame your opponent "cheese".
Casual viewers don't understand when all of a sudden you bring your workers to battle as a meatshield. It doesn't look good, no one wants to watch it.
Average person has a basic understanding of war and battle. You don't bring your labor workers, suppliers, elders, wives or children to war.
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GUYS
Going 15 hatch is the safer build.
14 gas/pool just allows for the Terran to wait and do an even stronger timing attack. Going 15 hatch gives you the early larva count to compete with the rush, 14 pool has a hole where you either over-produce and then the Terran backs off (giving them a huge advantage) or you don't produce enough and lose.
On December 09 2010 14:39 ehalf wrote: This is ridiculous, if scv + marine is not a reasonable strategy, then why not let stacraft 2 just have 10,000 minerals + 5,000 gas for each player at beginning so we can all "enjoy" macro game every time. Nestea's strategy had holes, shouldn't be too greedy and blame your opponent "cheese". That's very ignorant. A Zerg player can know it is coming from the beginning of the game and still not be able to stop it without putting himself in a huge disadvantage, how is that fine? These types of strategies shouldn't be so powerful that they can win game after game. It's not good for the game, the players, or the spectators.
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we cant get mad at players for doing what works... its like if we got mad at home run hitters in baseball because we want to watch more exciting out fielding.
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Yeah can't blame the players when money is on the line, and quite a bit of it as they advance to later rounds.
Perhaps drop the attack speed of marines by a small amount and then increase their stim attack speed by the same amount? Keeps marines as the heavy hitters they are while slightly lowering their early cheese ability.
Other options include mule or scv changes, but those would affect other facets of the game besides just the first four minutes.
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On December 07 2010 05:20 University wrote: It's absurd to blame professional gamers for using boring, successful strategies. They are not here to entertain us, nor are they here to promote SC2 with exciting games. They are not here to have fun. They are not here to experiment with macro.
They are here to win, because they have given up hours of their lives, much of their emotional energy, and maybe even some of their relationships in order to support themselves. This is their livelihood. It's not like they get paid handsome salaries whether they win or lose, a la NBA or the MLB. These guys HAVE to win to continue. Put yourself in their shoes for one instant and you can see that so clearly. I have no idea what some of you people are thinking blaming the players. It is absurd and completely unsympathetic to them.
Sure that is true. But pro gaming wouldn't exist if it wasn't fun to watch because nobody would sponsor them. I don't blame rain, he should do what he has to. But in the long run if people are having issues with starcraft 2 being boring, it's definitely going to affect their future as pro gamers.
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On December 09 2010 14:56 SovSov wrote: GUYS
That's very ignorant. A Zerg player can know it is coming from the beginning of the game and still not be able to stop it without putting himself in a huge disadvantage, how is that fine? These types of strategies shouldn't be so powerful that they can win game after game. It's not good for the game, the players, or the spectators.
I bet you were not a BW player, at least not familiar with BW. In early stage of BW games, it's kind of standard that Zerg build at least 3 sunkens to against Terran early m+m+1 tank push. Nestea could also easily defend the rush if he had more sunkens prepared. Compared with BW zerg players, current SC2 zerg players are much more greedy in their play styles.
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It may be frustrating to see 10 games in a row, but I can't blame the players for doing a strategy that is entirely within the rules of the game. I want to see these players genuinely play the games to win them, not try to put on some sham of a macro game just because "fans don't like all-ins". The fans are not the ones who are in the running for the money and pride that comes from winning this tournament. And these same "fans" would still turn on a player if his macro games aren't good.
Play the games to win. If an SCV+Marine all-in is what will win you every game for now, then I can't blame you for doing it when this much money is up for grabs. I would just suggest that these players work on their macro as well because this wont stay the norm forever, either through Blizzard's intervention or some breakthrough in Zerg play.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 09 2010 13:12 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 12:52 Jibba wrote:On December 09 2010 12:33 lowercase wrote:On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote:On December 08 2010 04:21 SlipperySnake wrote: If I were Rain I would just tell the forums that they should be at Nestea because he did super greedy fast expands. Learn to play and stop crying about how bad it was to watch. It was Nestea's fault it was bad to watch because he lost early. Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Bullshit. Cancel the hatch and build 12 lings or 3 spine crawlers. That should hold off the rush. I'm making up numbers here, but they're enough of a ballpark estimate to illustrate the point. If you put the hatchery down with a spine crawler and save larva, you might have a 60% chance of losing to the marine/SCV attack 4 minutes into the game. If you don't put the hatchery down and build 3 spine crawlers above your ramp instead, you'll survive the marine/SCV attack but will have a 100% chance of losing 10 minutes into the game. You know you are basically saying that zerg is underpowered right? If zerg at best has a 40% chance of winning then you are kinda saying that either zerg is UP or terran is OP. I'm not sure i buy that. Make it whatever you want, I was just making it a number >50% to illustrate that it's currently in T's favor with the map pool and the way Z has been executing. I'm sure with different maps or better decisions with lings, the number could switch.
No matter what, it's still better than the guaranteed defeat later on in the game if you try to play 1base vs T.
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On December 09 2010 13:17 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 10:48 Fwiffo wrote:I'm not a fan of Terran game-play either, but it's ridiculous that a pro-gamer caves into the incessant whining of the Zerg community. Rain SHOULD be ashamed, not for his tactics but FOR APOLOGIZING that he used them! Do you think a single Zerg apologized in Brood War for 4 pooling? Edit: On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote: Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push. Oh forgot to address the above post which proves my point btw. Although “over a hundred” Zerg posts defends that the “greedy” build is the “safest against this push” it is not the opinion of the GSL commentators (i.e. Artosis) nor is evidenced by how other Zergs handled this through-out the tournament. As soon as you suspect the rush is coming, stop droning! Build spine crawlers and lings - defense - just like every other race has to when they FE! Elementary my dear Watson! I can't believe I'm defending Terran! You're so ignorant on the matter. 1. Artosis has conceded his earlier beliefs about it not being the safest. So he's an awful person to use for your argument. 2. You don't drone at ALL at the beginning vs tworax. You literally are pumping Zerglings as fast as you can. However, after you have enough to push back a tworax, then you start droning. There's two times you can die. First is when you're NEVER droning and you're making lings asap, and then there's another in a later timing window when you start droning up again. It is during this time Zerg is playing blind, and you don't know whether or not Terran decided to expo (in which you'll be behind if you're still on like 17 drones and he has more harvesters + mules, or you'll be crushed by an all-in if you started droning again). No it's not impossible to stop. But by god, you're suggestions about utterly ignorant. Amazing you say it's "elementary."
Oh, please enlighten me on the correct play-by-play moves on how this rush is stopped, because it HAS been stopped plenty of times during this GSL WHEN the Zerg had a contingency for it. Are you telling me Spine Crawlers weren't built, Zerglings weren't produced and Drone production wasn't temporarily stopped? Are you saying this a broken build that wasn't discovered until GSL 3 and thereby letting a Zerg player take the title for the first two GSLs or having the highest number of entrants for this one?
And I can't believe you're complaining about Artosis. There isn't a more visible and staunch advocate for the Zerg cause than he. Being a major commentator for currently the largest SC2 league hosting, for the longest while he unashamedly argued Zerg points to the aggravation of viewers, until he stopped recently (for some reason). And you're not satisfied?
I'll admit, my language was baiting and my 'recommendation' a little simplistic where it may have undermined the difficulty in countering this rush, however it outlined what I observed in how the rush was successfully countered. If fast-expanding against Terran, the Zerg player must consider this response. GENERALLY, it means bolstering the expansion preemptively with a Spine Crawler at the cost of early gains at macro. Build defenses for your expansion - elementary. In any case, the 27 Zergs who qualified for this GSL had to to contend with this rush at some point or another and win.
Perhaps I shouldn't have called it 'elementary' and let the MAIN POINT in my post stand – Rain shouldn't have to apologize due to the Zerg community crying. In Brood War, 4 pool was a staple and no one apologized for it. In fact I recall a MSL(I believe) between July and Best, where July brought Drones and Lings with the Drones glitching the Zealot out of the choke so the Lings would flood in. Not quite a 4 pool (if you're looking to nit-pick and you oh so want to), but very early and NO outcry when July won.
And as to trying to highlight MY ignorance, I suppose your enlightened self supports this:
On December 08 2010 15:05 Gotmog wrote: Learn to read what has been said over a hundred times about what you can "greedy" builds. They are the safest against this push.
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On December 09 2010 15:02 Polygamy wrote: we cant get mad at players for doing what works... its like if we got mad at home run hitters in baseball because we want to watch more exciting out fielding.
This, 100%. Money is on the line here, and money can be more important than "what will they think of me if I use this strategy!?"
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People who want to watch a better showing should go watch WWE and stop looking at RTS games. The main point of a RTS game is the strategy and doing what ever trick to win! Most of these people will jump up and and wistle all day for pre determined 30 minit game between sc1 wash out stars!
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On December 09 2010 18:59 Reesj wrote: People who want to watch a better showing should go watch WWE and stop looking at RTS games. The main point of a RTS game is the strategy and doing what ever trick to win! Most of these people will jump up and and wistle all day for pre determined 30 minit game between sc1 wash out stars!
i dont agree with you at all.i love to see jinro play, the way he beat moon was awesome. Jinro didn’t chose any lame builds, played a solid macro game and with good strategy (not a trick for a easy win) he took the set.
Ofc there are alot of people who want fast wins so a marine/scv all in is a nice flavor of the month, but it wil fade. once zerg get more comfortable defending all-ins like that.
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I feel that it is incredibly difficult to win long games against Zerg. I think that to expect Terran to macro up against a Zerg is simply irrational. All-ins and cheeses are just part of the game, and you have to be able to deal with them to be a top player. Also, not all of TSLRain's builds were all-in. Some were, whereas others were just rushes! I agree that if you want a bunch of long macro games, get Blizzard to change the matchup. Also Chill has a great point. Yeah long macro games are fun to watch, but it's not realistic that every game should be that way. Part of the game is the element of surprise as well. You have to be able to switch up your strategies, rushing sometimes, macroing other times. I agree with Chill 100%.
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