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On December 10 2010 18:53 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 09:25 Hurkyl wrote:On December 10 2010 09:15 Shikyo wrote:On December 10 2010 09:08 Hurkyl wrote:On December 10 2010 09:01 Shikyo wrote: ^ You can do the first one earlier... your drone will just have to stay as an extractor for a while longer. I'm not sure which way is faster.
12overpool has 0 larva downtime though, so it will have the "21st" larva referred to in the long post above out at the same time as a 14pool would. What advantage does 12 overpool have over just 12 pooling the ordinary way? IIRC 11 and 9 overlord both leave you with more minerals than 12 overlord. You get your 10th, 11th, and 12th drones way earlier and with normal 9ov build you still would need to wait a long time. The reason 12ov here doesn't give you less minerals is because you're going to be waiting for enough minerals for the pool while the overlord is building anyway, there's no downtime while you're waiting for ov anyway. I note that you haven't actually claimed to have tested it to see if the good points you are espousing outweigh the bad points you're ignoring.... I have tested it, and I just did so again -- 11 Overlord got the 200 minerals for the 12 Pool about 1.5 seconds sooner than 12 Overlord did. How on earth do you even do 11 overlord 12pool? extrick, overlord, double extractor trick, 12th drone? What the. Extractor trick, overlord, patiently wait for overlord to finish, make one Drone, then pool. All in all, I think it works out to being a tiny bit better than 9 overlord.
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On December 10 2010 18:54 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 18:53 Shikyo wrote:On December 10 2010 09:25 Hurkyl wrote:On December 10 2010 09:15 Shikyo wrote:On December 10 2010 09:08 Hurkyl wrote:On December 10 2010 09:01 Shikyo wrote: ^ You can do the first one earlier... your drone will just have to stay as an extractor for a while longer. I'm not sure which way is faster.
12overpool has 0 larva downtime though, so it will have the "21st" larva referred to in the long post above out at the same time as a 14pool would. What advantage does 12 overpool have over just 12 pooling the ordinary way? IIRC 11 and 9 overlord both leave you with more minerals than 12 overlord. You get your 10th, 11th, and 12th drones way earlier and with normal 9ov build you still would need to wait a long time. The reason 12ov here doesn't give you less minerals is because you're going to be waiting for enough minerals for the pool while the overlord is building anyway, there's no downtime while you're waiting for ov anyway. I note that you haven't actually claimed to have tested it to see if the good points you are espousing outweigh the bad points you're ignoring.... I have tested it, and I just did so again -- 11 Overlord got the 200 minerals for the 12 Pool about 1.5 seconds sooner than 12 Overlord did. How on earth do you even do 11 overlord 12pool? extrick, overlord, double extractor trick, 12th drone? What the. Extractor trick, overlord, patiently wait for overlord to finish, make one Drone, then pool. All in all, I think it works out to being a tiny bit better than 9 overlord. Oh okay I tested it, I didn't really see any difference in pool timing but might be my execution. I'm not sure if that gets to three larvae at one point, but if it doesn't and if it's faster, I guess that's the way to do it, since at least you save 6 minerals.
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im going to have to try this build, looks very interesting :D. thanks for the share
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According to my tests here, 11overlord 12pool feels a lot worse. You get the ling after the Queen way later, the larva delay feels to be at least 5 seconds. It can't be that I do the build so much worse than the 12ovpool. The drone timings are later as well. Doesn't make up for the 1 second faster pool and 6 mineral save.
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Here is some more data in graph form.
Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials.
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On December 11 2010 01:35 Obsolescence wrote:Here is some more data in graph form. Personally I'm ever more curious about the 11-OL / 12-Pool. It apparently only delays the pool by ~5 seconds, eliminates the larva waste (had to round up to 1 second), and appears to perform better economically, although I cant say for sure because I didn't run a multitude of trials.
I must say I've never liked the practice of measuring "seconds of larva waste." It doesn't take into account the timing of the queens or injections. A build that wastes 6 seconds of larva time, but then gets an injection 15 seconds earlier, is going to be WAY ahead. Maybe if you compared "seconds of larva waste" to "seconds of queen injection waste" it would make a little more sense, but even then it is not really a solid criteria for comparison imo.
I also wish you wouldn't post test results that are inferior to the results I've already provided. You should always post the better of two results imo.
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We have our final game from crixus here. I want to thank him for doing a great job showcasing this build against high-level opponents. He went 3-0 until he finally lost to HasHe. The early game clearly favored crixus to win his fourth game, but a poor battle engagement and a few macro mistakes allowed HasHe to claw his way back to a win.
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I don't get the point of posting these individual games. There are so many things that happen after the initial opening that affect the outcome that you'd need data from a crapload of games between very solid players for it to be meaningful in deciding which opening is better.
I think that a HUGE factor that's being ignored here is that, assuming your opponent wants to keep you from taking your natural expansion if at all possible, he'll be in a better position to do so if you wait until 18 food to expand because zerglings and drones fight better in low-food battles. There's a specific point in time after any expansion is started that is the opponent's optimal chance you use your temporary economic loss to bust your expansion and put you behind. You DON'T want that time to coincide with when his army is starting to get that critical mass that makes it way more effective.
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On December 11 2010 02:28 adius wrote: I don't get the point of posting these individual games. There are so many things that happen after the initial opening that affect the outcome that you'd need data from a crapload of games between very solid players for it to be meaningful in deciding which opening is better.
I think that a HUGE factor that's being ignored here is that, assuming your opponent wants to keep you from taking your natural expansion if at all possible, he'll be in a better position to do so if you wait until 18 food to expand because zerglings and drones fight better in low-food battles. There's a specific point in time after any expansion is started that is the opponent's optimal chance you use your temporary economic loss to bust your expansion and put you behind. You DON'T want that time to coincide with when his army is starting to get that critical mass that makes it way more effective.
The point of posting all these individual games is to show that this build can defeat solid diamond players from all three races going a wide range of strategies. This will certainly help put to rest whether the build is "viable" or not. Clearly with the data we have, the build is viable. Now the debate is focusing towards details like how the seconds of delayed hatch affects early pressure.
I think using supply terms really clouds the reality for some people. First of all, we have a queen building which is taking 2 supply, so really it is like a 16 hatch. And also consider that most pool-first builds would have included an early extractor anyways, decreasing their supply by 1 as well.
I'm just saying, it is more helpful to look at the game clock instead of supply.
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Mmh I must say I used the build order or at least I build my pool at eleven and then played however I felt like and it worked good. I feel it is less vulnerable to allmost any kinds of cheeses and can still be nice economywise. I am a low level diamond player if anyone is interested in this. For me it just feels alot saver than 14/15 hatch and then pool and is on the other hand still quiet fast with the economy build up. Other than that its probably just a matter of preferance...
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If you feel safe you're probably doing something bad. Zerg is about holding off attacks by the skin of your teeth! And to some extent the other races are, too.
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The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat'. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO.
The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis.
14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with.
This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game.
Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player?
Against Z, anything really works. In a perfect world, you'll just be one step or one drone ahead of your opponent. If he 14 pools, you 15 pool. If he 20 pools, you 21 pool. Basically like in BW until the queen pops out. But by that time, build orders are out of the door and it's about unit comp/unit counters/reading and reacting to your opponent.
I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input
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On December 11 2010 03:16 adius wrote: If you feel safe you're probably doing something bad. Zerg is about holding off attacks by the skin of your teeth! And to some extent the other races are, too.
By safe we are just saying we have the flexibility of defending against many possible attacks.
For example, if I hatch first, I don't feel safe because I know if he goes 2rax, my options are limited, and whoever wins depends upon how well my opponent micros. But with this build, I know I have the option of pumping tons of lings if I need to to defend the attack.
So of course, surviving by the skin of your teeth would mean building just enough lings to stop the attack without sacrificing drones. The build doesn't force anyone to overcommit to defense. The flexibility, not the units, is what makes it safe.
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On December 11 2010 03:23 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 03:16 adius wrote: If you feel safe you're probably doing something bad. Zerg is about holding off attacks by the skin of your teeth! And to some extent the other races are, too. By safe we are just saying we have the flexibility of defending against many possible attacks. For example, if I hatch first, I don't feel safe because I know if he goes 2rax, my options are limited, and whoever wins depends upon how well my opponent micros. But with this build, I know I have the option of pumping tons of lings if I need to to defend the attack. So of course, surviving by the skin of your teeth would mean building just enough lings to stop the attack without sacrificing drones. The build doesn't force anyone to overcommit to defense. The flexibility, not the units, is what makes it safe.
Please read my post above. I'm not trying to pick a fight, just seeing what you think of my argument.
What if the T decides to walk over with a few marines and forces you to make more zergling (thus taking an economic hit) and then marches back to his wall in?
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On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO. The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis. 14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with. This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game. Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player? I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input
This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings?
This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings?
I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly...
Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly...
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I've been using this build all week in every match up as a mid-diamond player and I love it. I've never had my hatch delayed or stopped enough to prevent it from going up. In-fact in most cases I defend any early aggression with lings, 2 queen, 1 spine, and still have plenty of drones. Once your 2nd hatch is up you can take an econ lead over your opponent and still have an army to pressure.
One main reason I like this build vs a hatch first build:
- in a hatch first build you may have to defend early aggression with drones + lings. What do you think this does to your economy? In the 11p18h build you can defend the exact same early aggression with your early queen + the early lings you can make while still having 16 drones mining minerals the entire time.
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On December 11 2010 03:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 03:17 Inflexion wrote:The huge glaring problem I see with this build is 'what if the T decides to build a few marines with the 2rax and decides to march over to your base to fake an attack? and then just retreat. You will be forced to use the larva to make zerglings which puts you behind the T significantly. Not only that but you'll be forced to attack with the zerglings to do damage (you'll have useless zerlging sitting around as the T is walled in) AND having a much much later hatch (due to deviating from making lings instead of drones) or the T will be miles ahead coming out of early game, IMO. The thing with 14hatch over these early pool builds against T is that it already takes into account that the enemy is 2rax-ing. If they don't bunker rush with a few SCVs, then you're AT MINIMUM (with 14hatch) on par with the T's economy. Then the rest of the game can continue on an even basis. 14hatching already takes into account a 2rax opening; therefore, the rest comes down to micro to defend. If you can defend it, you'll be only slightly behind or best case, ahead. If you early pool, any better than your average joe Terran will just apply some early 'fake' pressure, march back to his base (you are forced to make zerglings instead of drones) and then you're royally screwed for late game if the T decides to in base CC and use wallin to defend your zerglings that you must do damage with. This is my personal opinion but I can see why ret/idra both are so firm on their stance with 14hatching (vs T). Because at the pro level, if you early pool, you place the ball into the T's hands. If they play their cards right, you'll be in such a disadvantage entering mid/late game. However, if you 14 hatch, you bring the ball back into the Z's court. 'You want to try 2rax, well then i'll 14hatch, COME GET ME!!' Essentially, the Z is forcing it to come down to micro, in which whoever is better at microing, will come out ahead or, in a few cases, win the game. Against P, I think early pool builds become more viable because 1. probes can't march across the map and build a bunker in your face 2. if they cannon rush, you don't have to deal with marines. all you gotta do is scout and denyt the cannon rush 3. if they send zealots + all probes to all in = lol NO MULES wut. 4. most imporantly, early lings means you can abuse advantage that comes with zerglings > zealots in small numbers It really comes down to personal preference in ZvP. Do you want to break your P opponent mentally (ie fuck with his mind and early pool/speedling/etc.) or are you more of a read and react/type macro player? I have no emperical data to base all this on but I would just like to add some input This is very convoluted logic... So the weakness of the build is the ability to make too many lings? That doesn't make sense. And how is the 14 Hatch build surviving without having to make lings? This argument being repeated again and again just isn't thought through at all. People assume that terran is going 2rax and not attacking, and the idiot Zerg is just mindlessly pumping zerglings all game? How about putting down a couple spines and working towards banelings? I never heard ret or Idra make this argument. I don't know where it was heard or what context it was heard in. But the notion that one build is forced to build lings and the other isn't just doesn't make sense. Are you thinking that the 11 pool doesn't have an expansion? I don't get it at all honestly... Could someone please explain this to me so I can properly respond to all the people claiming that hatch first is safer against 2rax? Everything I read in the previous thread operated on the flawed assumption that pool first is for some reason forced to keep making lings. I just don't get it honestly... 100% agree with everything inflexion said.
against terran 14 hatch is better for exactly the reasons he listed. on some maps this just isnt feasible so i 11pool there. 14 hatch u can plant a spine crawler asap. it might not finish but it will distract his forces long enough for yours to pop. a spine in your main is avoidable, a spine by the ramp is not. not to mention when the first queen inject pops you can make a lot of lings+nat larva too.
if he was expoing during the attack and retreats and your nat is still up then you are at worst equal if not ahead (assuming he doesnt get past your ramp). on some maps you can make roaches that are so larva effecient you can make tons of drones too.
against toss i am leaning towards 11pool as my standard. it feels like if he does choose to rush i am better prepared to handle it. 14pool/16 hatch feels late to me, and the 18 hatch when u 11pool is not that bad.
against zerg i 11pool the majority of my games because it eats 6-7-8 pools easily.
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That is indeed very interesting, seems like 13p 15h should pretty much solve all the issues people are having with the 11p 18h builds vs 2rax. More larva than hatch first, faster spine crawler at the natural than hatch first (262s vs 267s). Of course optimal drone micro that thread uses is useful for getting consistent and comparable results but hopefully it doesn't matter too much in practice as optimal worker micro past the first 9 or so is pretty rough.
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