Flash: 30-4 (88.2%)
Last: 24-16 (60%)
Mind: 8-10 (44.4%)
Piano: 7-9 (43.8%)
Mong: 10-14 (41.6%)
Sea: 18-27 (40%)
Sharp: 7-11 (38.9%)
sSak: 6-10 (37.5%)
Light: 8-15 (34.8%)
Rush: 2-6 (25%)
Source
Forum Index > BW General |
classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
Flash: 30-4 (88.2%) Last: 24-16 (60%) Mind: 8-10 (44.4%) Piano: 7-9 (43.8%) Mong: 10-14 (41.6%) Sea: 18-27 (40%) Sharp: 7-11 (38.9%) sSak: 6-10 (37.5%) Light: 8-15 (34.8%) Rush: 2-6 (25%) Source | ||
classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19035 Posts
On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Thanks for sharing but those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Terran can be imba and they could still be winning inspite of this or terran can not be imba while they're losing versus everyone. | ||
classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. | ||
classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:09 B-royal wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Thanks for sharing but those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Terran can be imba and they could still be winning inspite of this or terran can not be imba while they're losing versus everyone. I never said they were exclusive. But, stats matter when considering imbalance. I just want them to stop whining about TvZ when they have been consistently winning against 8 other terrans. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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noname_
454 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. Vod please! | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17709 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
On October 21 2016 13:37 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I still remember what Hoejja said about Flash, "If you practice with Flash you forget how to win". 1 month later you beat every other terran out there... | ||
Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. Nothing will top Bisu vs Effort in Sino league. NOTHING! | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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abuse
Latvia1923 Posts
poor zergs. It's like every single bonjwa-level player is just extra strong vs them. We have JvZ ; we have Bisu who basically became known for his vs Zerg play, so we can name that BvZ and now we see FvZ ouch. | ||
iFU.pauline
France1389 Posts
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abuse
Latvia1923 Posts
Effort is quite amazing nontheless. Still has a losing record vs Flash tho. I think that should impress people at least somewhat. | ||
classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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abuse
Latvia1923 Posts
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aedeph
104 Posts
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abuse
Latvia1923 Posts
On October 21 2016 18:47 aedeph wrote: What about Scan? thats cute | ||
radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1389 Posts
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okum
France5776 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4495 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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_vk_
219 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. Yeah, is there a VOD anywhere? Thank you in advance. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Moridin
Bulgaria161 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4495 Posts
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outscar
2789 Posts
On October 21 2016 18:47 aedeph wrote: What about Scan? LOL, who's Scan??! Many of you thought that Flash is not who he is nowadays. But stats showing his GOD status. Let's bet he's the winner of next ASL. | ||
noname_
454 Posts
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... | ||
aedeph
104 Posts
On October 22 2016 00:24 outscar wrote: LOL, who's Scan??! You know, this guy, TL doom machine, who is better than Sea and Piano, just on the level of Shuttle and Hero. User was warned for this post | ||
oBlade
Korea (South)4616 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. Someone named MoustacheZerg apparently? I'll check for more info. | ||
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. Probably Effort + Show Spoiler + or Larva :D | ||
letian
Germany4221 Posts
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yubo56
662 Posts
On October 22 2016 01:44 letian wrote: Light used to be one of best TvZ-ers on earth, now just a bleak shadow. <dark templar voice> clever </dark templar voice> I think that's just in SC2 voice pack pls don't kill meeeee | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. | ||
LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
On October 22 2016 03:01 Cryoc wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. I mean, he's actually right. The problem is he's just whining about the current imbalance, which is a bit annoying even if right. Once maps change, t>>>z as he put it, will shift back to just t>z as it always does and the stats among the top will become more balanced. | ||
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. And you forgot probably the most important unit, which is defiler. Also: guardians, overlords, ultralisks, queens. | ||
ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
All this shows is that Flash and Last are statistical outliers | ||
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:43 noname_ wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. Vod please! Yes we will need this best game of 2016 vod. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On October 22 2016 00:19 Peeano wrote: Talking about what could be considered 'the game of the year' without posting the VOD should be a bannable offense. YES. VODs please. On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. VOD please! On October 21 2016 14:03 Wrath wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. Nothing will top Bisu vs Effort in Sino league. NOTHING! VOD PLEASE! On October 21 2016 18:47 aedeph wrote: What about Scan? Lol this guy doesn't quit. | ||
lastride
2390 Posts
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[nkc]moon
30 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 04:04 LucasWoJ wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 03:01 Cryoc wrote: On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. I mean, he's actually right. The problem is he's just whining about the current imbalance, which is a bit annoying even if right. Once maps change, t>>>z as he put it, will shift back to just t>z as it always does and the stats among the top will become more balanced. We are talking "ground" maps only here. Imagine if maps were actually changed to include a good amount of air maps. Z is performing significantly worse on these. I just don't know how I didn't realize this earlier. Seemingly Blizzard updated SC:BW balance changes until actual and serious work on WC3 was about to be put. The last update with major changes for the Balance were in 2001. They were making T stronger, while P and Z weaker until then. Then they stopped updating BW balance as the focus was to create WC3. The next updates, as you can check, are fixed bugs. At least that that's how my reasoning goes. | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On October 21 2016 21:56 c3rberUs wrote: 6 years ago, this kind of imba talk would have been shut down quickly. How things have changed Maps would have been changed and most players wouldn't be practicing all maps vs all races. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On October 22 2016 07:50 ortseam wrote: Bisu vs Effort as requested You're a hero among men. Any lead on the other nominee? | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has. On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. This is pretty much the same as your previous post, you say for T 1 base builds are good for sniping, then say Z cannot win consistently vs T with ling/hydra busts etc? What a comparison. So T nowadays wins consistently with 1 base builds? And all this time I thought I have to expand to not get rolled midgame. There are plenty of ways to open up for zerg except for the standard 3 hatch muta, be it fake muta, fake lurker, lurker drop, ultra rush, guardian rush and what not. And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. And I don't think that only having the limited arsenal of ling muta/lurker (or hydra vs mech) to defend vs T can be seen as a disadvantage, because either one requires vastly different T responses as it does for Z when he faces a mech opening. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has. On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. This is pretty much the same as your previous post, you say for T 1 base builds are good for sniping, then say Z cannot win consistently vs T with ling/hydra busts etc? What a comparison. So T nowadays wins consistently with 1 base builds? And all this time I thought I have to expand to not get rolled midgame. There are plenty of ways to open up for zerg except for the standard 3 hatch muta, be it fake muta, fake lurker, lurker drop, ultra rush, guardian rush and what not. And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. And I don't think that only having the limited arsenal of ling muta/lurker (or hydra vs mech) to defend vs T can be seen as a disadvantage, because either one requires vastly different T responses as it does for Z when he faces a mech opening. if you think this is the same as the previous post, read again then T 1 base builds are MUCH more viable than Z hydra/ling busts ZvT. ZvT hydraling busts is almost laughable to even spell it out. T 1 base builds have been legit for many years and still are. Nobody plays them nowadays on FS because going for expo is easier and stronger, but they are still viable. So the plenty of ways for z to open up vs T go from 2/3hatch lurk/muta to 2/3hatch fake lurk/fake muta. And the super expensive lurk drop that almost nobody does? Dude, you defend lurk drops by placing nicely supply depots in your main, lol. 2 lurks can't even kill an scv with the first shot. I understand the pain for protoss users that must react quick, but with SCVs? answer this question: do you honestly expect zerg to do any significant damage to you until the 10th minute of the game with a unit that is different than a lurker or a mutalisk? then answer this: can you not determine relatively quick if z is on 2 or 3 hatch a good amount of the games you play? (this question is almost rhetorical) is scan not enough for you to determine whether you are fake mutaed or fake lurkered a good amount of the time? I understand if zergs made 80% of the time den before spire everytime no matter if they went for lurkers or spire, but that's not the case in reality. On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote: And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. Is this a joke? You want the comsat scan to give you information what unit is coming out of the larva to determine whether you are being guardian or ultra rushed? From which only the guardian rush sounds somewhat viable and have seen some players do it. Why do you even include guardians and ultras in early game variations is beyond my mind... These are hive tech units, it takes plenty of time to survive until then... Do you count hive tech units as early game? edit: do you really not understand how 1base T has realistical chances to win a good amount of the time vs the zerg openings and to transition nicely into a more standard play smoothly afterwards? While if you play zerg from 1 base or go for 2/3base hydraling you end up being beaten severely a good amount of the time? edit2: don't you realise that 1base AND 2base T has MUCH more "fake" variations to do than z? when 2base- when you are z you have an ovie observing the exp at best? before z gets mutas, how do you know whether T is going for 2rax mnm bust? or 3rax? or 4rax? or 5rax? or speed vultures? or mnm + valk bust? | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
| ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. You must have missed the times where JD was bashing Terrans left and right when he was active. Flash practiced a whole lot before he started streaming that's why you see him winning games easily, it's not like he came back and instantly started beating Zergs. When JD gets back to around 80-90% of his skill trust me he's going to wreck Terrans. Also it sounds like you've been around long enough to know that in BW the players skill matters most not race imbalance. Maps do play a significant part but we have seen players overcome that. And we're talking about God's TvZ itself you can't base racial imbalance off that. | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On October 22 2016 11:23 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote: On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has. On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. This is pretty much the same as your previous post, you say for T 1 base builds are good for sniping, then say Z cannot win consistently vs T with ling/hydra busts etc? What a comparison. So T nowadays wins consistently with 1 base builds? And all this time I thought I have to expand to not get rolled midgame. There are plenty of ways to open up for zerg except for the standard 3 hatch muta, be it fake muta, fake lurker, lurker drop, ultra rush, guardian rush and what not. And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. And I don't think that only having the limited arsenal of ling muta/lurker (or hydra vs mech) to defend vs T can be seen as a disadvantage, because either one requires vastly different T responses as it does for Z when he faces a mech opening. if you think this is the same as the previous post, read again then T 1 base builds are MUCH more viable than Z hydra/ling busts ZvT. ZvT hydraling busts is almost laughable to even spell it out. T 1 base builds have been legit for many years and still are. Nobody plays them nowadays on FS because going for expo is easier and stronger, but they are still viable. So the plenty of ways for z to open up vs T go from 2/3hatch lurk/muta to 2/3hatch fake lurk/fake muta. And the super expensive lurk drop that almost nobody does? Dude, you defend lurk drops by placing nicely supply depots in your main, lol. 2 lurks can't even kill an scv with the first shot. I understand the pain for protoss users that must react quick, but with SCVs? answer this question: do you honestly expect zerg to do any significant damage to you until the 10th minute of the game with a unit that is different than a lurker or a mutalisk? No, simply because Zerg cannot build anything else until Hive? Just the fact that T can build more different units in midgame does not make it unfair for Z. Hydra muta is good vs mech, muta lurker is good vs bio. then answer this: can you not determine relatively quick if z is on 2 or 3 hatch a good amount of the games you play? (this question is almost rhetorical) is scan not enough for you to determine whether you are fake mutaed or fake lurkered a good amount of the time? I understand if zergs made 80% of the time den before spire everytime no matter if they went for lurkers or spire, but that's not the case in reality. Actually I don't know why Zergs don't always build both hydra den and spire, because that way T always has to prepare for both options. I would gladly invest those extra 150min/50gas for the hydra den for the chance T only scouts one and prepares for the wrong attack. And if he scouted both and doesn't skip anything, then T invested as much in defense than Z in both tech buildings. Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote: And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. Is this a joke? You want the comsat scan to give you information what unit is coming out of the larva to determine whether you are being guardian or ultra rushed? From which only the guardian rush sounds somewhat viable and have seen some players do it. Why do you even include guardians and ultras in early game variations is beyond my mind... These are hive tech units, it takes plenty of time to survive until then... Do you count hive tech units as early game? edit: do you really not understand how 1base T has realistical chances to win a good amount of the time vs the zerg openings and to transition nicely into a more standard play smoothly afterwards? While if you play zerg from 1 base or go for 2/3base hydraling you end up being beaten severely a good amount of the time? edit2: don't you realise that 1base AND 2base T has MUCH more "fake" variations to do than z? when 2base- when you are z you have an ovie observing the exp at best? before z gets mutas, how do you know whether T is going for 2rax mnm bust? or 3rax? or 4rax? or 5rax? or speed vultures? or mnm + valk bust? I never said I wanted scan to give that information, I just pointed out, that scan is not a maphack, and if a fake build is done correctly by Z, there is no way to know what Z goes for unless you scan at the exact moment when his units spawn. And I included ultrarush because it is the same as fake lurker or muta. Z can just build 9 drones instead of units saving his gas and rush to hive defending with sunkens and lings until ultras are out and then overwhelm T. Z cannot scout the amount of barracks usually before mutas are out but you can see from the attacking forces if he goes for a pre muta bust or not. The other tech builds you mention, they are gambles from T to counter something he doesn't know if it will come, so it is the same for both sides. The only thing I might agree on, is that Z allins decide the game faster than T 1 base openings and because of that longer period of time there are more decisions to be made so a better player has a better chance to win. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On the grand scale of things though, I do think that FS has a large part to play in apparent balance between T and Z but ultimately the apparent IMbalance between Z and T in the top 10 vs top 4 is from the numbers themselves - expanding it to top 10 vs top 10 would even out the % a bit for everyone below the top Terrans. Those top Terrans imo are simply better players at the moment. | ||
noname_
454 Posts
On October 22 2016 16:07 Jealous wrote: Just gonna be fair and input that if you see a lot of larva when scanning spire/den they are really garbage or going muta, no? Sometimes the information is between the lines, right? Most probably. If the zerg is really decent, he can hatch lurkers beside hatcheries, and lings in others eggs, and if scan happens before muta pop timing to see just the 9 eggs, it can be a good suprise, altough this has to be pulled of masterfully, because spawning larvas may give away the fact that it isn`t mutas. I agrree with Cryoc on that zergs should/could invest in both buildings. I`d buy 1-2 muta if I`d go lurk/ling, and I`d buy 1-2 hydras, if I`d go mutas, just for the sake of unpredictability. On October 22 2016 16:07 Jealous wrote: On the grand scale of things though, I do think that FS has a large part to play in apparent balance between T and Z but ultimately the apparent IMbalance between Z and T in the top 10 vs top 4 is from the numbers themselves - expanding it to top 10 vs top 10 would even out the % a bit for everyone below the top Terrans. Those top Terrans imo are simply better players at the moment. I think exactly the same. | ||
iu1nguoi0iuminh
Vietnam44 Posts
I wonder Zerger who had lucky when he won the God! | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote: No, simply because Zerg cannot build anything else until Hive? Just the fact that T can build more different units in midgame does not make it unfair for Z. Hydra muta is good vs mech, muta lurker is good vs bio. Z can harass and do damage to T until 10th minute of the game with: 5 units - zerglings, mutalisks and lurkers mainly, maybe hydralisks and scourges While terran can harass and do damage to Z until 10th minute of the game FREQUENTLY with: 2 buildings (bunker and ebay) 1 cc unit scv with 3 options - 1. attacking, 2. repairing attacking or defending buildings (bunkers and turrets) and 3. maybe walling off zerg with depots or buildings to stop drones from reaching the natural exp to defend a marine rush 3 barracks units - marines, medics, firebats 3 factory units - vultures, tanks and goliaths (T can do quite well with vultures and goliaths vs whatever off 2base vs whatever the z opening!) 3 starport units - wraiths, valkyries and vessels On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote: Actually I don't know why Zergs don't always build both hydra den and spire, because that way T always has to prepare for both options. I would gladly invest those extra 150min/50gas for the hydra den for the chance T only scouts one and prepares for the wrong attack. And if he scouted both and doesn't skip anything, then T invested as much in defense than Z in both tech buildings. Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources and time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote: Z can just build 9 drones instead of units saving his gas and rush to hive defending with sunkens and lings until ultras are out and then overwhelm T. Z cannot scout the amount of barracks usually before mutas are out but you can see from the attacking forces if he goes for a pre muta bust or not. The other tech builds you mention, they are gambles from T to counter something he doesn't know if it will come, so it is the same for both sides. The additional 9 drones that Zerg hatched are not worth it because terran will see that z has no army, get good macro because not harrassed and scout the map and see that Z is only doing 2base ultra. Sorry, Cryoc, but almost nobody ever does 2base ultra rush with the intention to even snipe some decent terran IMHO. Also the drones will mine not too many additional minerals so it's really more of a waste of resources. Also drones are hatched the quickest, the chance that Z hatches these drones and terrans scans exactly when being made to not see it's drones is very low. Hard to pull it off if playing zerg IMO. edit: After the warning, I edited some parts to not sound too rude when presenting my reasoning. Sorry to Cryoc if he felt offended here. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
T>>Z for so many reasons and factors, whether relatively tiny or not, that compound throughout the game process and makes for the T>>Z imbalance. IMO it's T>>Z>P ? T. But I certainly feel better for protosses vs zerg than for zergs vs terrans. | ||
trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
T>Z Z>P? Maybe yes but not really as much as T>Z | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 18:12 noname_ wrote: I agrree with Cryoc on that zergs should/could invest in both buildings. I`d buy 1-2 muta if I`d go lurk/ling, and I`d buy 1-2 hydras, if I`d go mutas, just for the sake of unpredictability. ... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability | ||
trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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Tanzklaue
Germany1412 Posts
flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? | ||
Tanzklaue
Germany1412 Posts
On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows? it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered. what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates. EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself? | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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aedeph
104 Posts
PS: as far as i understand, technics means that every zerg player is GOSU and on Flash's level of dedication, talent and skills, but stupid imba makes statistics even. That's quite nice. | ||
noname_
454 Posts
Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources AND time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Maybe at their level, but not necessarily on foreigner level. Also pros do many-many things by habit, not by actually thinking themselves our being good strategists, whatever. I`ve seen effort and zero not using the return to cargo command in zvz, that was suprising to say the least. It`s not that huge investmenet at all, considering you basically buy each of these buildings otherwise just a few minutes away from each other, so you lose a few minutes of working at most with one drone, that`s absolutely worth it, as I see... | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 23:33 noname_ wrote: Show nested quote + Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources AND time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Maybe at their level, but not necessarily on foreigner level. Also pros do many-many things by habit, not by actually thinking themselves our being good strategists, whatever. I`ve seen effort and zero not using the return to cargo command in zvz, that was suprising to say the least. It`s not that huge investmenet at all, considering you basically buy each of these buildings otherwise just a few minutes away from each other, so you lose a few minutes of working at most with one drone, that`s absolutely worth it, as I see... I will quote myself once again: ... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 23:09 c3rberUs wrote: The only concrete things I can conclude right now strictly with the stats written in the OP are that FlaSh and Last have been dominating so far. And that Mind and Sea are in the area of "they suck" and "they're mediocre". Mind does not suck lol. 8-10 is one game away from 50%-50%. The sample is not too good. If Mind is 6-0 vs Larva while 2-10 vs Hero, Zero, Effort then he most probably sucks. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 23:04 Tanzklaue wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows? it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered. what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates. EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself? yeah, the argument "they don't play seriously" might be flawed. But still the most number of dominating players for the longest period of time was Terrans. I didn't know that Terran is the race with most pro players. If true, this simply means that playing terran gives you the best chances to succeed when attempting to become a pro in Korea. That argument alone is pretty much sufficient to describe the terran race, at least marginally, as the best one for high level 1v1 BW. You are also correct to notice that these numbers show, to quote myself once again from this thread, "that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol." Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? In the face of the fact that EffOrt's only win in this sample is described as "The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.". | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 12:11 Dante08 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. You must have missed the times where JD was bashing Terrans left and right when he was active. Flash practiced a whole lot before he started streaming that's why you see him winning games easily, it's not like he came back and instantly started beating Zergs. When JD gets back to around 80-90% of his skill trust me he's going to wreck Terrans. Also it sounds like you've been around long enough to know that in BW the players skill matters most not race imbalance. Maps do play a significant part but we have seen players overcome that. And we're talking about God's TvZ itself you can't base racial imbalance off that. 424 played 200 games+ to become S rank on Fish last season and is currently having an very unimpressive 50-30 stats. I am not sure if 424 is only one person on this acount playing this season but the 50-30 score is not very impressive so far. Maybe he played only vs Flash/Last or smth? I guess time till tell on this one. He seemed to play way better vs Shinee in their last games, but Shinee seemed not too sharp in the games as well. Yes, I remember the times when JD had to practice almost exclusively ZvT to be able to win a good amount of the times he faced any good terran in the individidual leagues seemingly IMO at the expense of his ZvZ and ZvP skills. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote: Z cannot scout the amount of barracks usually before mutas are out but you can see from the attacking forces if he goes for a pre muta bust or not. The other tech builds you mention, they are gambles from T to counter something he doesn't know if it will come, so it is the same for both sides. I missed to just mention here that many times when Z sees what build terran does judging by the attacking forces already out well in the map usually is too late for Z to react to survive. And for the Nth time - it is not the same for both sides. SCV scouts zergs base if he is rushing or 2 or 3 hatch exp almost 100% of the time and a decent amount of the time almost the SCV is scouting until LAIR IS FINISHED, even until movement is finished in some cases. Zergs scout initially well with a drone only 33% of the time and have information for not too much time afterwards. 33% of the time Z has overlord on T's exp when he scouted from the first time and this is not too much of a scout as discussed. The last 33% of the time IF overlord doesn't die on the way to the terran's natural, then the scoutting is still poor. The other terrans builds are viable. Faking mutas or lurkers is very hard to do and the investment is significant. Who does it 70%+ of the time? You can't splurge on Hydra den and not on ling speed when lair is at 50% just becase the SCV is already in Zerg's main scouting there. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
As you know, this was not the case. I do believe there is a slight T>Z>P>T circle going around, which is corroborated by statistics, but the number of posts you made and the amount of reasons you're trying to present as facts (when really they are mostly made-up numbers and interpretations of what you perceive the game to be) is just coming off as blatant balance whine and not very substantiated whine at that. I could write a narrative in the same manner about any match-up, even the reverse (TvZ being hard for T) if I selectively pull information that supports my biased agenda. You're a Zerg, you struggle with ZvT, so you look for reasons in the game as opposed to solutions in yourself. I'm sorry to say this but there have been many great Zerg champions over the years. To become a champion you have to win consistently against the best of the best Terrans (unless you're July on his 3rd OSL). Zergs have been winning the most recent Korean SLs. The foreign scene was/is(?) completely dominated by Zergs for the past few years. And even during the KeSPA era, Zerg representation in both tournaments and teams in general was always healthy - and I trust the coaching staff + progamers' decision-making far more than I trust yours. If they didn't think Zerg was too weak against Terran, then it probably wasn't the case. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 00:46 Jealous wrote: Honestly Technics, if Terran was so overwhelmingly imbalanced all this time, then why would anyone play Zerg? At some point it would become obvious that playing Zerg is not viable, and proteams would structure accordingly - Protoss and Terran players only. Why pay Zergs money and house them when Terran is the better race, so in theory if you're raising a player from scratch then making them play Terran is the way to go? As you know, this was not the case. I do believe there is a slight T>Z>P>T circle going around, which is corroborated by statistics, but the number of posts you made and the amount of reasons you're trying to present as facts (when really they are mostly made-up numbers and interpretations of what you perceive the game to be) is just coming off as blatant balance whine and not very substantiated whine at that. I could write a narrative in the same manner about any match-up, even the reverse (TvZ being hard for T) if I selectively pull information that supports my biased agenda. You're a Zerg, you struggle with ZvT, so you look for reasons in the game as opposed to solutions in yourself. I'm sorry to say this but there have been many great Zerg champions over the years. To become a champion you have to win consistently against the best of the best Terrans (unless you're July on his 3rd OSL). Zergs have been winning the most recent Korean SLs. The foreign scene was/is(?) completely dominated by Zergs for the past few years. And even during the KeSPA era, Zerg representation in both tournaments and teams in general was always healthy - and I trust the coaching staff + progamers' decision-making far more than I trust yours. If they didn't think Zerg was too weak against Terran, then it probably wasn't the case. Tell me one number that I made up please. edit: And what % of the total amount of numbers I gave these made up numbers are? I could not write a narrative on every match up. I'm z user and won't dare to write extensively on TvP or PvT imbalances. I like playing PvT but dislike playing TvP. I don't know the game minute by minute there with all the viable variations and combinations as in ZvP, ZvT and TvZ and PvZ. While you sir? What race have you played competitively? I don't think I struggle vs foreigner Terrans. I feel fine in my abilities in all the MUs. If you are interested, my main struggle in competitive BW so far was to show the skills and abilities that I present in practice games to resemble well what I do in tournament games. I play much better in practice games than in tournament games. This distinction of two player types - one that performs significantly better in practice and another - significantly better in tournaments - was also made by Grrrr... in some interview, if that's anyhow valid. To the question - why people invested time, resources and efforts to play and sponsor/house zergs? As I said T>>Z, but Z>P IMO. But notice how I placed two times ">" for the T-Z imbalance, while only one ">" in the Z-P one. Besides that I don't know? Because they liked doing so? I played competitively for many years without even questioning this kind of stuff and now I realize how much I suffered when playing vs T for reasons like weird maps, air maps, lag on bnet, terran being made stronger by Blizz until they started work on WC3 and now the latest 2base modern variations of builds. And yes, if you are raising a player from scratch - whatever that even means - playing Terran should yield better results atm. If indeed the most pros in Korea are terrans, that itself alone speak enough, at least for me. edit2: and for the long posts and their number, it's just me when I try to defend an argument I think corresponds to the reality somewhat well. Now seems obvious that Scan shouldn't have been allowed in the last TL events right? He is a Korean offracing vs a top foreigner for a 14-0 challenge, barely pays attention to the games and wins 11-3. Claims he is tied with or better than many known top korean BW streamers atm. However, at the time, I had to post a number of lengthy posts to persuade a number of people that Scan not playig in these is the most sensible thing to do for the described for foreigners TL events. | ||
ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
"Bw balance whine in 2016 LUL" | ||
kogeT
Poland2000 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On October 23 2016 02:11 kogeT wrote: Seems like Technics is playing again on some smurf account and cannot win vs C level terrans on Iccup. ^^ Shots fired. Showmatch? Would you do 14-0? | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Interested to hear a word or two on the zvt/tvz topic from u as well. | ||
trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 04:10 trutaCz wrote: Because he never liked zvz Just edited my comment to include that thought of mine about him disliking zvz lol | ||
trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 22 2016 05:32 Jealous wrote: VOD PLEASE! | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 04:23 trutaCz wrote: Btw the other fact is that the more terran knows the map, the more imbalanced TvZ is - like TvZ at fighting spirit I guess that is also the case. But I view FS as a piece of cake for ZvT compared to the times when LT and Python were relatively frequently played. Although recently, I read somewhere here in TL somebody (was it classicyellow83?) mentioned that korean terrans like Sea or FlaSh if I recall correctly, thought FS was good for T. Maybe they did not say that, because I do not understand korean. I cannot validate this statement. | ||
HaN-
France1916 Posts
On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. FlaSh vs Effort VOD PLEASE! | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 06:31 HaN- wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. FlaSh vs Effort VOD PLEASE! Yeah, I have been expecting this all along in this thread. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9655 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On October 23 2016 07:21 FlaShFTW wrote: >counting larva in there. Larva is pretty silly haha. Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good. | ||
ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On October 23 2016 10:39 c3rberUs wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 07:21 FlaShFTW wrote: >counting larva in there. Larva is pretty silly haha. Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good. He actually beat Flash 2-0 today as well lol. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On October 23 2016 10:39 c3rberUs wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 07:21 FlaShFTW wrote: >counting larva in there. Larva is pretty silly haha. Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good. he beat jangbi, that must count for something | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On October 22 2016 03:01 Cryoc wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. Yes. I take it fairly seriously. Technics is a pretty darn good and well respected player, and to my knowledge isn't know as a particularly whiny player from to complaining. Yes, he plays Z and that likely biases his opinion to an extent, but at the same time T>Z has always been acknowledged to a degree, even more so than Z>P generally has been. I'm not sure how true it holds for foreigner level play though, especially given it only really seems to hold true for excellent, cream of the crop terrans. I suspect there it's much closer to T=Z. Now, I don't think the balance is that bad either, as even at pro level it's generally been not worse than 55/45. That's a decent discrepancy, but not enough that good play struggles to overcome it. Start talking 60-65% WR and I think we'd have a real problem on our hands. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On October 23 2016 10:58 ZeroChrome wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 10:39 c3rberUs wrote: On October 23 2016 07:21 FlaShFTW wrote: >counting larva in there. Larva is pretty silly haha. Larva may not be an elite player but he's still pretty good. He actually beat Flash 2-0 today as well lol. Welp ZvT imbalance disproved. Nothing to see here people. | ||
dr0pship
Canada520 Posts
sunken colony HP increase 50 | ||
Shalashaska_123
United States142 Posts
On October 22 2016 23:51 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 23:04 Tanzklaue wrote: On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows? it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered. what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates. EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself? yeah, the argument "they don't play seriously" might be flawed. But still the most number of dominating players for the longest period of time was Terrans. I didn't know that Terran is the race with most pro players. If true, this simply means that playing terran gives you the best chances to succeed when attempting to become a pro in Korea. That argument alone is pretty much sufficient to describe the terran race, at least marginally, as the best one for high level 1v1 BW. You are also correct to notice that these numbers show, to quote myself once again from this thread, "that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol." Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? In the face of the fact that EffOrt's only win in this sample is described as "The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.". Hello, LRM)TechnicS. I think the reason Flash is dominating is because there is no active Zerg player at the moment that matches him skill. Effort is kind of holding an even record against him (1 win and 3 losses), but 4 games is too small of a sample size to say for sure. Judging TvZ at the highest level can only be done if you compare FlaSh with Jaedong. The last televised game between them as far as I know is the following: + Show Spoiler + The player records against each other are shown at 2:50. Counting this game, the total score over their careers is 21 wins for FlaSh (53.8% win rate) and 18 wins for JD (46.2% win rate). If Terran and Zerg were evenly balanced, then the win rate should be 50% for both races after many, many games. With the FvJ record as it is, it doesn't make sense to say that T >> Z at the highest level. There can only be a slight imbalance if there is any imbalance at all. In addition, having 49 wins to 49 losses for Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva this month confirms this once more. If you think it's because certain people aren't trying so hard or are just out of form, then keep track of these players in the following months and let's see if the numbers change. Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? Haha, according to classicyellow83, each of them have taken a game off of FlaSh. But yes, I agree that it isn't normal for someone to be so dominant over other players. FlaSh is truly an exceptional athlete, making it to both starleague finals multiple times. None of the 4 Zerg players have anywhere near as many accolades, so I'm not surprised he has the record he does now. And also, he does not offrace and play BGH on his stream all the time. From the streams of his that I have watched, he takes 1v1 against other pros very seriously, concentrating on the game and not getting distracted with his chat channel. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? I would say it's due to the fact that Boxer showed everyone how to play Terran properly at a very early stage in pro-BW history. Zerg players didn't really understand how to play until the mid-2000s when JulyZerg and sAviOr came around. In the late 2000s, JD, FlaSh, Stork, and Bisu pretty much shared the #1 spot. Each of them were always favorites against anyone else, and whenever they did play against each other, they gave us some of the best, most memorable games ever. If there actually are more pro Terran players around, I would hypothesize it's because Terran was the dominant race in the early years and people were inspired to play it themselves. As far as foreign BW is concerned, most of the strongest players, including yourself, are Zerg players. If I remember correctly, Killer was really dominant for a time after KeSPA disbanded. It's a shame he's not playing now that there are so many more players around. EDIT: Also, in the final two OSL's Jangbi defeated FlaSh and FantaSy to win them. So much for Terran imbalance. EDIT 2: Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 | ||
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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Piste
6137 Posts
On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. Are you serious with your 2/3/4 ling hydra busts? Terran can win with tank vult timing attack on early to midgame on TvP like they can win vs Z with marine and medic busts, if the Z is too greedy. On the other hand, terrans does not have underground lurkers or flying mutaballs. You sound like youd want each race to have similar units and similar playstyles. Queens are used a lot these days. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 19:19 Piste wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio. Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount? I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me. Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal? I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. Are you serious with your 2/3/4 ling hydra busts? Terran can win with tank vult timing attack on early to midgame on TvP like they can win vs Z with marine and medic busts, if the Z is too greedy. On the other hand, terrans does not have underground lurkers or flying mutaballs. You sound like youd want each race to have similar units and similar playstyles. Queens are used a lot these days. I am not serious with my 2/3/4hatch hydra/ling busts. It was just an example that zerg's attacking and defending unit arsenal is less diversified than terran's in early to early-mid game. Zerg's legit early to early-midgame attacking arsenal is 3 units - lurkers, mutalisks and zerglings, which is easily and quickly enough scouted. Terran on the other hand can pick from a well-diversified amount of strategies to exploit almost all units it can build from any building and still expect a good amount to win. And I definitely don't want hydralisks to be strenghted because that will be terrible for protoss. And almost surely my imagination can't come up with a unit that "restores balance in ZvT" but is absolutely worthless in ZvP. And, for me, the investment in queens in early/earlymid game in ZvT is not well justified by the expected results. A thought experiment, on a slightly more abstract level that I came up with, is to generalize the attacks any race can do to the other in two types: dynamic and static. The dynamic way of attacking is by using units, the static is by using buildings. Zerg can do damage almost exclusively through the "dynamic" type of attacks in early/earlymid part of the game mainly by using 3 units - zerglings, mutalisks, lurkers. The only "static" way I see for Z to do damage to T is to place a gas station with its scouting drone. Theoretically we can build a hatchery on Terran's expansion to slow him down a bit, but in practice this investment is way too big. On the other hand terran can do sufficient amount of damage to zerg in early/earlymid part of the game through both the dynamic and static way. The dynamic way exploits usage mainly of 8 units- scvs, marines, medics, firebats, vultures, tanks, goliaths, wraiths. I omitted the dropship as I am unsure how to qualify it. The static ways are no less than 2: by placing attacking bunker/s, by placing manner ebays on zerg's exp, rarely building a gas station in zerg's main and even more rarely placing depots on maps like Tau Cross to wall off drone reinforcements vs some marine rushes. Perhaps the SCV repairing the attacking bunker could also be considered a static way of attacking, because I have no idea how to qualify it. I also am not sure how to describe spider mines in the example. Perhaps this type of stuff is of significance to the supposed by my experience imbalance in this MU. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 13:39 9heart wrote: 1+ mutalisk range upgrade from Spire. 150/150 mins/gas (similar to U238 Shells) sunken colony HP increase 50 I think if we try to make zerg stronger vs terran by making zerg units and/or buildings built faster or cheaper or made stronger, this will influence the ZvP imbalance too great to offset the supposed pairment of the ZvT imbalance. On top of my mind, maybe the key is in making the medic and turret more expensive. I remember the turret was being lowered in cost from 150 to 75. 100 will make sense for the turret in that case. However if my memory doesn't serve right and the turret was 100 before it was lowered to 75, then this won't be a viable solution. The possible solutions might be so many I dont even wanna think about it. We have to skim through all the buildings, units and spells and see if their building time, resource spent, health points and damage points (if any) could be altered to achieve some sort of betterment of the supposed imbalances. I don't even want to think about new units. Besides imbalance talk, to awaken the hidden riches of the BW game though, BW developers can think about making the corsair's dweb more viable as an option for p, zerg's broodling and ensare more viable for z and terran's nukes for T (although if currently T is the strongest race, not sure if that will influence this imbalance too much). That would add one more good flavour to the game IMO. | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I don't think terran has any inherent advantage (current imbalances feel very much because of fighting spirit) versus zerg. I think zerg is just not allowed to make as many mistakes because its playstyle revolves around a small number of key units (11 mutalisks, 3 lurkers, 2 scourges, 1 defiler,...) until it gets to end game. And before all of this, surviving often depends on excellent reading of the terran's opening, and the placement of the minimal amount of sunkens at the latest possible time. Add to this that any early aggression by a zerg player often is a bigger investment with more risk and you get a match up that feels in favor of terran. Just a side-note: but for some reason hydralisks are SO weak against bunkers, a single bunker is often the dead of early hydralisk zergling cheese. It might also be because of repair... | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 11:40 L_Master wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 03:01 Cryoc wrote: On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote: On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch. Yes. I take it fairly seriously. Technics is a pretty darn good and well respected player, and to my knowledge isn't know as a particularly whiny player from to complaining. Yes, he plays Z and that likely biases his opinion to an extent, but at the same time T>Z has always been acknowledged to a degree, even more so than Z>P generally has been. I'm not sure how true it holds for foreigner level play though, especially given it only really seems to hold true for excellent, cream of the crop terrans. I suspect there it's much closer to T=Z. Now, I don't think the balance is that bad either, as even at pro level it's generally been not worse than 55/45. That's a decent discrepancy, but not enough that good play struggles to overcome it. Start talking 60-65% WR and I think we'd have a real problem on our hands. Thank you for the acknowledgement, L_Master. FWIW I don't know how well the ZvT imbalance transitions from the korean to the foreigner scene. The foreigner scene nowadays, compared to the one in 2009-2010 or 2013 for instance, for me seems as unalive as ever, measured by number of visibly active players and tournament attendants in the TL events I consider relatively hard to beat. I don't know if we can derive meaningful conclusions but still... Undoubtedly, at least for me, the early/earlymid game imbalance persists (even though almost nobody starts off with 1 base bio nowadays (though it's still a viable open on many maps played throughout the years)) and is strengthened into the mid/late game by the latest mech switch. Back in 2012-2013 I was feeling good about my abilities in all MUs but the fact is that back then the top spots in foreigner TL and Defiler events were occupied by zergs - mainly sziky, trutacz, eon and me. I think though that in 2009-2010 there were many more seemingly hard to beat opponents and the mech switch was not present back then, so I cannot determine what was the case back then. But still... from 2003 until 2010 my biggest concern going into tournaments was to perform well vs Terrans. I don't remember worrying about performing well vs p or vs z (even the rock-paper-scissors). I remember I promised publicly in the PC caffe in 2006, right after I qualified for WCG 2006 Italy, that I will not drop a game vs z or vs p in the WCG games. I respected my promise... by going 1-5 in the groups (0-5 vs terrans). Little did I understand that my biggest problem was not in polished practice skills, but performing as well as in practice under stress in the actual tournaments. Overall, I view the ZvT matchup when we account for decent Z and decent T, from the Z perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from T perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 22:01 B-royal wrote: I'm a new player but I would still like to share my opinion. I don't think terran has any inherent advantage (current imbalances feel very much because of fighting spirit) versus zerg. I think zerg is just not allowed to make as many mistakes because its playstyle revolves around a small number of key units (11 mutalisks, 3 lurkers, 2 scourges, 1 defiler,...) until it gets to end game. And before all of this, surviving often depends on excellent reading of the terran's opening, and the placement of the minimal amount of sunkens at the latest possible time. Add to this that any early aggression by a zerg player often is a bigger investment with more risk and you get a match up that feels in favor of terran. Just a side-note: but for some reason hydralisks are SO weak against bunkers, a single bunker is often the dead of early hydralisk zergling cheese. It might also be because of repair... I mostly agree with all of this. I really can't comprehend why hydralisks are so good vs P and at the same time so bad vs T. | ||
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
guess not lol | ||
HaN-
France1916 Posts
On October 23 2016 06:31 HaN- wrote: Show nested quote + On October 21 2016 12:09 classicyellow83 wrote: On October 21 2016 12:05 BisuDagger wrote: On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine. Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too. one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game. FlaSh vs Effort VOD PLEASE! Is it this one? VOD | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 23 2016 15:16 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 23:51 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 23:04 Tanzklaue wrote: On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs. flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows? it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered. what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates. EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself? yeah, the argument "they don't play seriously" might be flawed. But still the most number of dominating players for the longest period of time was Terrans. I didn't know that Terran is the race with most pro players. If true, this simply means that playing terran gives you the best chances to succeed when attempting to become a pro in Korea. That argument alone is pretty much sufficient to describe the terran race, at least marginally, as the best one for high level 1v1 BW. You are also correct to notice that these numbers show, to quote myself once again from this thread, "that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol." Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? In the face of the fact that EffOrt's only win in this sample is described as "The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.". Hello, LRM)TechnicS. I think the reason Flash is dominating is because there is no active Zerg player at the moment that matches him skill. Effort is kind of holding an even record against him (1 win and 3 losses), but 4 games is too small of a sample size to say for sure. Judging TvZ at the highest level can only be done if you compare FlaSh with Jaedong. The last televised game between them as far as I know is the following: + Show Spoiler + Counting this game, the total score over their careers is 21 wins for FlaSh (53.8% win rate) and 18 wins for JD (46.2% win rate). If Terran and Zerg were evenly balanced, then the win rate should be 50% for both races after many, many games. With the FvJ record as it is, it doesn't make sense to say that T >> Z at the highest level. There can only be a slight imbalance if there is any imbalance at all. In addition, having 49 wins to 49 losses for Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva this month confirms this once more. If you think it's because certain people aren't trying so hard or are just out of form, then keep track of these players in the following months and let's see if the numbers change. Show nested quote + Do you understand that hero, ZerO and EffOrt are some of the strongest zergs to ever play the game and not being able to take a single game off whoever is NOT normal? Does this sound normal to you? In the face of FlaSh offracing and playing BGH all the time? Haha, according to classicyellow83, each of them have taken a game off of FlaSh. But yes, I agree that it isn't normal for someone to be so dominant over other players. FlaSh is truly an exceptional athlete, making it to both starleague finals multiple times. None of the 4 Zerg players have anywhere near as many accolades, so I'm not surprised he has the record he does now. And also, he does not offrace and play BGH on his stream all the time. From the streams of his that I have watched, he takes 1v1 against other pros very seriously, concentrating on the game and not getting distracted with his chat channel. Show nested quote + What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? I would say it's due to the fact that Boxer showed everyone how to play Terran properly at a very early stage in pro-BW history. Zerg players didn't really understand how to play until the mid-2000s when JulyZerg and sAviOr came around. In the late 2000s, JD, FlaSh, Stork, and Bisu pretty much shared the #1 spot. Each of them were always favorites against anyone else, and whenever they did play against each other, they gave us some of the best, most memorable games ever. If there actually are more pro Terran players around, I would hypothesize it's because Terran was the dominant race in the early years and people were inspired to play it themselves. As far as foreign BW is concerned, most of the strongest players, including yourself, are Zerg players. If I remember correctly, Killer was really dominant for a time after KeSPA disbanded. It's a shame he's not playing now that there are so many more players around. EDIT: Also, in the final two OSL's Jangbi defeated FlaSh and FantaSy to win them. So much for Terran imbalance. EDIT 2: Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 All these comments of mine presented in this thread are not instigated by this thread alone. I have these thoughts for some weeks/months now after BW HD was rumoured to come out. I view BW:HD as an opportunity to awaken the riches of BW and to bring along many new players, audiences, donators and oldfaces returning in order to make an actual BW revival. It is not hard to imagine a lively BW foreigner scene. I am most probably instantly donating for tournaments a substantial amount if I see that happening. All Blizzard needs to do is to invest time, resources and efforts into this. Judging from the past - Blizzard either puts all the work possible into a project, or they completely don't. I would have laid out all these thoughts of mine earlier this month, independently from this thread, but I decided to wait for further proofs that Blizzard actually wants to put a good amount of work and effort into the supposed BW:HD project. Nevertheless, this thread presented opportunity for me to unload all these thoughts of mine and visibly I did not miss this opportunity, however inappropriate to some that might have seemed. Nowadays we mostly have old korean pros returning and streaming, with a scene not as strictly professional as before and I certainly do not view the numbers presented as concluding for the ZvT imbalance as much. The only conclusion I made is that FlaSh can do the 14-0 challenge vs the current top 4 zergs for real and expect to win a good amount of the time. And that most probably Sea is performing very bad vs Zergs currently as he seemingly does not want to copy FlaSh's style of ZvT. Really, it's a shame that Killer isn't active anymore as he was a top performer in the Sonic leagues, while the last Afreeca leagues had seemingly mostly poor overall zerg performances. It would be interesting to see him perform on top of his shape vs FlaSh. I am not sure how to fully quantify and describe the supposed by my experience ZvT imbalance. These are all thoughts of mine on the matter that seemingly to me describe well the reality. Perhaps it's a combination of tiny influences from a vast range of factors that adds up to the feeling that ZvT is imbalanced. The numbers leave me with the feeling that FlaSh is still maintaining his top shape, while others maybe have deteriorated. Nevertheless, the unsaid feeling of the ZvT imbalance, have been around for years before FlaSh started playing, at least in my eyes. And yes, saviOr and July really had their valueable contributions to the zerg race. For example I view the muta stack discovery as a turning point in ZvT gameplay. But how do we even describe the Mutastack as an example of airstacking units? I mean is it physically realistical to even imagine, let alone place air units stacked in the air to shoot air and ground targets at the same time with the same success from the same angle every time? It's not a normal thing for sure so the question is: is it some sort of BW "bug" that was decided to be unfixed to have the air units stack when selected with a unit far from the mutas? If it weren't for the Muta stack, what would Zerg do nowadays vs Terran on FS for example? Let me tell you, nowadays mutastack ZvT is absolutely crucial. If it weren't for that, TvZ would be a astonishingly more in favour of Terran vs Zerg. If a patch fixed that "bug" perhaps disbanding zerg pros from prohouses and 2base ultra rushes become actual possibilities. Or BW Mapmaking must become much more dilligent and sophisticated. Although BW mapmaking and maybe even pathing is a whole different but very important subject that nobody seemingly thinks too deeply about for now. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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zaMNal
Mongolia384 Posts
SCV hp of 60 was one of the bigger baffles for me personally for the longest time. It takes whole 7 mutalisks to 1-shot an scv but probe and drone need just 5 mutalisks. This difference is huge, pretty unfair. Some say it's because SCV doesn't have regeneration like probes or drones. BUT it has direct manual healing(repair) available at any time, which is at least as good as regen, and is especially superb when doing bunker/scv rushes. Bringing scv to 40 hp would make it very fair, especially as it can be repaired to 100% in few seconds. Or 45 hp max (still 5 mutalisk to 1-shot it). 60 is just waay over the top as long as they can be repaired. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
But what do you mean, "no one thinks too deeply about map making and pathing" O_o ? A bit more more recognition for my accumulated sanity losses, please! | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 24 2016 00:01 Freakling wrote: Well, bots have not evolved beyond artificial stupid yet. They are nowhere near where they could actually comprehend meaning... But what do you mean, "no one thinks too deeply about map making and pathing" O_o ? A bit more more recognition for my accumulated sanity losses, please! I meant that in relation to the supposed ZvT imbalance, seemingly to me, most probably in Korea BW players and audiences are not yet visibly concerned with map and pathing issues as sources for some of the BW imbalances. Yes, they might think FS might be imbalanced in favour of T so they started playing Circuit Breakers but that might be even more T>Z. Even though I don't understand Korean and I can't read their forums and thoughts on the matter, if indeed that was of any concern to Koreans, they would put efforts and new maps would have emerged. However that is not the case. Or maybe the next Afreeca league has just this in store - new league with new maps. One of the last maps created for competitive play for the Sonic leagues I remember was heavily imbalanced - Wind and Cloud. Perhaps the mapmaking community there places more efforts on creating UMS maps. My assumption is that "the player base" in Korea do not even suspect the great benefits that can be derived from a vibrant interaction between the player and mapmaking communities. I imagine that in Korea if the map is made by Rose.of.Dream and it looks symmetrical, everyone instantly believes it's balanced and it's great while in reality there's a good chance it's not. A proof of that is how Wind and Cloud had significantly different mining rates for zerg in main bases. If a Zerg spawned top left and played vs another zerg on bottom right, he has to have bo advantage to be even with his opponent. Maybe he was negligent in just this map, but maybe not. So if the most prominent korean mapmaker Rose.of.Dream hasn't put the efforts to find out how to position mineral patches in the main base to not have visible imbalances, what should we expect about the supposed more sophisticated stuff? The case is different abroad though as we have Freaklingzerg who's deeply knowledged, willing to learn more, creative and actually puts a lot of work into his maps. After placing a lot of efforts together I came to understand that placing mineral patches correctly in the main base is not an easy task to do. Simple, though important stuff as these, might additionally influence already existing slight imbalances between races. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 24 2016 01:47 Freakling wrote: So you missed the new ASL maps then? That is, "miss" for lack of a better term, as your points are unfortunately very applicable to them again... If the points are still applicable, then they stole the wrong part of your creations - the naming of one of the maps. | ||
LML
Germany1702 Posts
On October 24 2016 03:09 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 01:47 Freakling wrote: So you missed the new ASL maps then? That is, "miss" for lack of a better term, as your points are unfortunately very applicable to them again... If the points are still applicable, then they stole the wrong part of your creations - the naming of one of the maps. Overwatch is a highly popular game, so it's definitely not stolen from his map lol | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
TvZ: 198-180 (52.4%) ZvP: 168-108 (60.9%) PvT: 197-210 (48.4%) Top places per race (1st-2nd): T: 9-10 Z:11-7 P:3-6 | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On October 24 2016 04:31 ortseam wrote: Wow can't believe this is still going on, I actually gathered stats from the most important tournaments in 2015-2016 (i started from SSL 10, including all TLPD leagues): TvZ: 198-180 (52.4%) ZvP: 168-108 (60.9%) PvT: 197-210 (48.4%) Top places per race (1st-2nd): T: 9-10 Z:11-7 P:3-6 Yea, TvZ is much worse than ZvP, guys. | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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D_lux
Hungary60 Posts
On October 23 2016 22:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 22:01 B-royal wrote: Just a side-note: but for some reason hydralisks are SO weak against bunkers, a single bunker is often the dead of early hydralisk zergling cheese. It might also be because of repair... I mostly agree with all of this. I really can't comprehend why hydralisks are so good vs P and at the same time so bad vs T. It might be because of hydra damage type, which is explosive. It deals only 50% damage against marines (small) and deals full damage against dragoons (large). Dmg/sec is also higher for marine with stim. Also if the women are around the marines the hydra clearly fails. Dmg/sec is about the same for the dragoon but because the dragoon's dmg type is also explosive it only deals75% damage against the hydra. The hydra does good against goons. I know there are more units in terran and protoss for the hydra to fight and im really bad at bw, so i dont really know any deep strategic arguments for why the hydra is bad against terran and good against p. If you want to you can check out the other units' dmg type and size and maybe it will reveal more about this. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Damage_Type | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 24 2016 03:22 LML wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 03:09 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 24 2016 01:47 Freakling wrote: So you missed the new ASL maps then? That is, "miss" for lack of a better term, as your points are unfortunately very applicable to them again... If the points are still applicable, then they stole the wrong part of your creations - the naming of one of the maps. Overwatch is a highly popular game, so it's definitely not stolen from his map lol lol, of course they did not stole anything from Freaklingzerg. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 24 2016 04:31 ortseam wrote: Wow can't believe this is still going on, I actually gathered stats from the most important tournaments in 2015-2016 (i started from SSL 10, including all TLPD leagues): TvZ: 198-180 (52.4%) ZvP: 168-108 (60.9%) PvT: 197-210 (48.4%) Top places per race (1st-2nd): T: 9-10 Z:11-7 P:3-6 Throughout the years, in my eyes, most tournaments were consisted of mostly terrans and zergs with very few protoss players. Also, to my knowledge, historically protosses are the least successful in obtaining major tournament top 1 titles. They don't even have a bonjwa. But it is somewhat comforting to have 2 protosses next to only 1 z and 1 t in the TaekBangLeeSsang. But I can't defend protosses for their weaknesess as heartedly as zergs for the supposed ZvT imbalance. Most probably that is because I haven't been playing so much PvZ throughout the years. I've had plenty of ZvT (and it's never enough) though. And I really like to offrace PvZ. I used to offrace PvZ vs the bulgarian terran LameR a lot before and he was genuinely advicing me to switch to P. Perhaps i should have listened. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
The reason Hydras rather suffer against Terran are: 1. against bio they are just not cost-efficient most of the time, as they deal less DPS than Zerglings or Marines, but for a much higher resource tag. Against mech, on the other hand, their medium unit size means they take significant damage from both tanks (die to one full plus one splash hit if tanks have +1 weapons or higher) and Vultures (not to mention mines...). They eat Goliaths for breakfast though, but you'll rarely see a pure Goliath army. Protoss simply do not have that instakill-potential in their base army composition. That's why they need storm and/or Reavers to fight Hydras. | ||
aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3687 Posts
You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them: Effort: FlaSh: + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS | ||
ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On October 24 2016 09:02 bITt.mAN wrote: Holy Moly! You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them: Effort: https://youtu.be/GUrvEFjXrp4?t=2130 FlaSh: https://youtu.be/sIXE7sESpOY?t=2137 + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS timestamp? | ||
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On October 24 2016 09:02 bITt.mAN wrote: Holy Moly! You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them: Effort: https://youtu.be/GUrvEFjXrp4?t=2130 FlaSh: https://youtu.be/sIXE7sESpOY?t=2137 + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS Wow, that was incredible. + Show Spoiler [result] + Watching the early bunker fight on both ends was taxing, haha. I thought the split engagement by Flash into the nat and the 3rd gas at the same time would finish the game but some super great timing by Effort, bringing the mutas in right as the zerglings spawn and the cleanup on the other end with the mutas. Effort seemed really insistent on the guardians. He made some more even after the first batch died to harass the bottom left. It didn't seem to be that effective though. The slow push-out of the vultures from Effort's fourth was really impressive. I would've lost my mind trying to do that. Looks like the thing that did Flash in was the end was the big two-way push by Effort, getting the timing where Flash was bringing reinforcements to the bottom left through the 6 o clock. Splitting the forces and engaging in seperate areas before the bottom left production could kick in was really cool. What a game. | ||
zaMNal
Mongolia384 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On October 24 2016 09:15 ZeroChrome wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 09:02 bITt.mAN wrote: Holy Moly! You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them: Effort: https://youtu.be/GUrvEFjXrp4?t=2130 FlaSh: https://youtu.be/sIXE7sESpOY?t=2137 + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS timestamp? 35:40ish on Effort 35:50ish on Flash's (assuming the first game is the one in question) | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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Piste
6137 Posts
On October 24 2016 05:26 B-royal wrote: Really? Bisu gets a 70% win rate, the other guys (protosses) aren't up to par at all. On the other hand, Effort, Hero and Zero are literally the BEST zergs in the world. So you're saying Protoss also is imba vs zergs? | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Problem is I don't have any of the details (how many games are versus larva, is it all on fighting spirit,...). I'm also not trying to make any generalizing statements here. I just believe that if one protoss player can get a 70% win rate in PvZ versus the best zergs in the world, there's not much of an issue in the match up. But then when you see the win rates of the best zergs in the world vs average pro terrans (sub 50% for hero one month, and almost all of the months they can't even break the 60% mark), I believe this to be more alarming. Aside from zero who figured out some ultralisk drop timing one month (I believe that was the cause, don't quote me on it), I don't think a zerg has gotten a 70% win rate versus terrans in a long time. edit: I also don't want to continue talking about balance issues since it's ultimately pointless anyway and only detrimental to your own psyche and improving. | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
Also discussing balance in the perspective of your own playing experience is totally irrelevant. I play Terran and struggle against Zergs who know how to defend their 3rd properly. Obviously that does not mean Zerg is imbalanced as I know I have a lot of areas to improve in. If everyone started talking about balance outside the Korean scene Protoss would be the most imbalanced race. 1 thing I do agree Terran has a lot more build options vs Zerg. But then again any good Zerg knows how to scout and deflect it relatively easily. If you want to talk about balance why not focus on maps? Like how FS is Terran favoured, easy access to a 3rd, short rush distances between bases, map can be easily split in half without covering a lot of distance. It's 2016, I think you've played this game long enough to know skill beats racial imbalance all day. | ||
ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On October 24 2016 23:20 B-royal wrote: I don't think a zerg has gotten a 70% win rate versus terrans in a long time. Well Effort is at ~67% vs T for this month (better than Last vs Z) so he's up there. As far as I can tell, the stats show Flash, Last, and Effort dominating in TvZ and the rest of the pack relatively even with each other. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 25 2016 00:31 Dante08 wrote: Technics, have you ever thought it might just be a coincidence that the top players right now happen to be Terran? If Flash didn't return to BW and JD was in his place and tearing Terrans apart left and right we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. Also discussing balance in the perspective of your own playing experience is totally irrelevant. I play Terran and struggle against Zergs who know how to defend their 3rd properly. Obviously that does not mean Zerg is imbalanced as I know I have a lot of areas to improve in. If everyone started talking about balance outside the Korean scene Protoss would be the most imbalanced race. 1 thing I do agree Terran has a lot more build options vs Zerg. But then again any good Zerg knows how to scout and deflect it relatively easily. If you want to talk about balance why not focus on maps? Like how FS is Terran favoured, easy access to a 3rd, short rush distances between bases, map can be easily split in half without covering a lot of distance. It's 2016, I think you've played this game long enough to know skill beats racial imbalance all day. Dante08, I am discussing balance from the perspective of my overall BW experience which includes many years of playing, discussing, watching and reading about BW in various forms, not just my playing ZvT experience. One thing I certainly disagree with in your post is in relation to zerg's scouting abilities in the ZvT matchup which I covered in my previous posts. Here's what I wrote: Zergs scout initially well with a drone only 33% of the time and have information for not too much time afterwards. 33% of the time Z has overlord on T's exp when he scouted from the first time and this is not too much of a scout as discussed. The last 33% of the time IF overlord doesn't die on the way to the terran's natural, then the scoutting is still poor. and ...many times when Z sees what build terran does judging by the attacking forces already out well in the map usually is too late for Z to react to survive. Perhaps I can add that I don't consider "scouting" the moment when I see how many marines a terran has that are seconds away from the center of the map and then to determine maybe correctly or maybe not whether the T has 4 or 5 barracks. I also wrote a little bit on the map aspect in the last post of page 6 in this thread. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what you think about it. | ||
g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
Disagree with your opinion T>>Z Z>P just by a race features. As far my experiece of playing Zerg since 2003 till 2008 all disadvantages of ZVT in favour of T comes from not good build or balanced maps. To be fair, i remember mainstream game in ZVT evolved from Hydra/Lurker T2 vs MMS TANKS to fast Lurker/Lings/Defilers. After that into nydus defence against adopted MMS VESSELS into ultra/ling/defilers. Well after terrans adoped more info late vult/tank. AS i mention now and mentioned before the only one reason i can give slightly advantage to a terran is a late vult/goliath/tank 3-3 blobs. They are supreme cost efficient and on most maps where zerg cannot maneuvre well this supreme cost efficience lead a terran to easy victory. May be now zergs are just needed to improve their style, dunno. But as for me seems late bult/tanks are slighly OP. Maps should be done to compensate this late disadvantage of ZVT. IF only terrans does not play into late mech transition i admit zerg chances vs him are pretty equal. Depends on micro moments etc. As for me FS it is not a zerg map. PS. sorry if my eng is bad xD | ||
DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
Feelings about perceived strengths and weaknesses of a race are pretty bad indicators of actual balance, especially when we're no longer considering Pro-level BW. The amateur BW scene is terrible to draw on because 90% or more of all games are played on Fighting Spirit and meanwhile CB, which means map balance is going to play a huge factor. Numerous ex-pros have already stated FS favours Terran in TvZ. Flash was/is the best player to play this game, is it surprising that someone who had that level of prowess and motivation in a pro environment is going to destroy weaker opponents in Terrans favourable matchup on a favourable map in an amateur environment? Unless we see Jaedong return in full form I doubt we'll see TvZ with him being a contentious issue. For a better understanding of Terran dominance over the years check out this thread by LegalLord which is really good and overlooked. Anyway Zerg players here should quit crying, Protoss have a much tougher lot in life in the pro scene. As for foreigners.. Remember any good foreign Terrans in the past years that could dominate zergs? Yeah me neither. | ||
g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
Idra | ||
_vk_
219 Posts
On October 24 2016 09:02 bITt.mAN wrote: Holy Moly! You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them. + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS Edited the two perspectives together if anyone's interested: | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 25 2016 09:09 DarkNetHunter wrote: The statistical evidence here is very weak on an overall scale. Feelings about perceived strengths and weaknesses of a race are pretty bad indicators of actual balance, especially when we're no longer considering Pro-level BW. The amateur BW scene is terrible to draw on because 90% or more of all games are played on Fighting Spirit and meanwhile CB, which means map balance is going to play a huge factor. Numerous ex-pros have already stated FS favours Terran in TvZ. Flash was/is the best player to play this game, is it surprising that someone who had that level of prowess and motivation in a pro environment is going to destroy weaker opponents in Terrans favourable matchup on a favourable map in an amateur environment? Unless we see Jaedong return in full form I doubt we'll see TvZ with him being a contentious issue. For a better understanding of Terran dominance over the years check out this thread by LegalLord which is really good and overlooked. Anyway Zerg players here should quit crying, Protoss have a much tougher lot in life in the pro scene. As for foreigners.. Remember any good foreign Terrans in the past years that could dominate zergs? Yeah me neither. There are no crying zergs here. You should read more carefully what has been written in this thread. The article that you linked to pretty much confirms most of what has been said so far here that T>Z. Some map issues have also been discussed. Zerg's dominance in the foreigner scene in 2012-2013 has also been mentioned by me. Even though that the thread is mostly about T-Z, it has been mentioned that Z>P. That FlaSh can do the 14-0 challenge vs the top4 zergs on FS and CB and expect to win a good amount also. LegalLord did a fine work there but quantitative data is not everything. When addressing issues like these, qualitative data is also important, if not even more important. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 25 2016 18:44 _vk_ wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 09:02 bITt.mAN wrote: Holy Moly! You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them. + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS Edited the two perspectives together if anyone's interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdy5hBCEcYY Thanks for that, i posted it to reddit so more people can enjoy it | ||
DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On October 25 2016 16:13 g0rynich wrote: Androide Idra Maybe last few years wasn't specific enough, I meant after SC2 was released. For fun check out http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Defiler_Tournaments/Results since that was the most regularly played foreign based tourney (although Korean participation was allowed). If Scan were discounted and his wins given to the runner up + Show Spoiler [see list of runners up here] + 3 Sziky 1 Jumper (p) 1 Bakuryu 1 Pro7ect 1 Mr. Chi-city (P) 1 Terror 1 Orz (another Korean terran) 1 Eonzerg 1 Cryoc 2 Trutacz 1 Djem5 then we'd reach the following stats - 71 Tourneys played: 40 Zerg wins (56.3% winrate) 18 Terran wins (25.3% winrate) 13 Protoss wins (18.3% winrate) On October 25 2016 19:30 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2016 09:09 DarkNetHunter wrote: The statistical evidence here is very weak on an overall scale. Feelings about perceived strengths and weaknesses of a race are pretty bad indicators of actual balance, especially when we're no longer considering Pro-level BW. The amateur BW scene is terrible to draw on because 90% or more of all games are played on Fighting Spirit and meanwhile CB, which means map balance is going to play a huge factor. Numerous ex-pros have already stated FS favours Terran in TvZ. Flash was/is the best player to play this game, is it surprising that someone who had that level of prowess and motivation in a pro environment is going to destroy weaker opponents in Terrans favourable matchup on a favourable map in an amateur environment? Unless we see Jaedong return in full form I doubt we'll see TvZ with him being a contentious issue. For a better understanding of Terran dominance over the years check out this thread by LegalLord which is really good and overlooked. Anyway Zerg players here should quit crying, Protoss have a much tougher lot in life in the pro scene. As for foreigners.. Remember any good foreign Terrans in the past years that could dominate zergs? Yeah me neither. There are no crying zergs here. You should read more carefully what has been written in this thread. The article that you linked to pretty much confirms most of what has been said so far here that T>Z. Some map issues have also been discussed. Zerg's dominance in the foreigner scene in 2012-2013 has also been mentioned by me. Even though that the thread is mostly about T-Z, it has been mentioned that Z>P. That FlaSh can do the 14-0 challenge vs the top4 zergs on FS and CB and expect to win a good amount also. LegalLord did a fine work there but quantitative data is not everything. When addressing issues like these, qualitative data is also important, if not even more important. Crying is maybe too strong a word, but I read complaints about not being able to 1 shot SCVs with less than 7 mutas or that scouting is imbalanced because scvs have 60hp (which they can't regenerate for free on their own). Every race in BW has a favourable matchup, including T>Z and no one has disputed that. However your posts in particular stand out in that you are pushing that T>>Z to a huge extent, when the evidence suggests that Z>>P has been a much bigger and major factor throughout BW history. FlaSh being able to do 14-0 challenge is a hypothesis, and unless you can donate enough for him to test it, there is no reason to suggest that it's real or even likely based on some random ladder games. When you say you expect him to win a good amount also, should anyone expect anything different? Wouldn't it seem like a major fuckup if the best Terran that ever played this game playing his race' let alone his own favourable matchup on maps that favour TvZ doesn't win 'a good amount also' ? Qualitative data is important, but what you're arguing isn't what I would qualify as data. If you were to look into individual Korean top level games and draw evidence from these for your arguments in TvZ, I'd understand that. Instead you're arguing that TvZ is imba because 1 Base builds are viable in your head (can you list 10 Korean tournament games in the last 2years with 1base TvZ (excluding BBS)?) and 60hp scvs and stuff are imbalanced, does that seem like evidence to you? I'll quote you here I am not sure how to fully quantify and describe the supposed by my experience ZvT imbalance. These are all thoughts of mine on the matter that seemingly to me describe well the reality. Perhaps it's a combination of tiny influences from a vast range of factors that adds up to the feeling that ZvT is imbalanced. The numbers leave me with the feeling that FlaSh is still maintaining his top shape, while others maybe have deteriorated. Nevertheless, the unsaid feeling of the ZvT imbalance, have been around for years before FlaSh started playing, at least in my eyes. And yes, saviOr and July really had their valueable contributions to the zerg race. Your thoughts are valuable, but they only reflect your personal opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that, we're all just nerds sharing BW thoughts on a forum anyway, but statistical analysis is definitely a stronger method of bringing a point across than anecdotal evidence. I think you should consider evidence presented to you, such as that of Shalashaska_123 and view facts instead of feelings more strongly. I respect the fact that you've played at a very high level for some of the longest time, but I feel like does not make your arguments stronger but rather weaker since you're more likely to be influenced by past experiences (such as recently improved map making (since you still were mentioning LT)) than results from Tournaments. | ||
aedeph
104 Posts
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
On October 25 2016 18:44 _vk_ wrote: How did that happen? + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 09:02 bITt.mAN wrote: Holy Moly! You have to watch that FlaSh vs Effort game! Watch them in new windows, synced, on top of each-other, and Alt+Tab between them. + Show Spoiler [result] + WAT So THAT is what it takes to beat FlaSh in ZvT? 450apm madness. Multiple engagements allday erryday! Look at how Effort is panting after it's over. My favorite bits are when Effort prepares and instantly splits his mutas, and when he diffuses the mine at his 3rd USING A NYDUS Edited the two perspectives together if anyone's interested: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdy5hBCEcYY Flash was up a base and +30 supply, huge turn around. He got hit with the mutas at his natural right during the factory switch which hurt a little but he seemed to recover. I noticed floating 2k minerals didn't help but still. Out-microed in engagements? | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 25 2016 23:11 aedeph wrote: Btw, probability of 88.2% player making 14-0 in 14 games is 0.882 ^ 14 ~ 17%. That's 1 to 5, not the greatest chances. 17% chance to win 14-0 some of the top zergs to ever play the game is not great chances? | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 25 2016 22:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: Maybe last few years wasn't specific enough, I meant after SC2 was released. For fun check out http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Defiler_Tournaments/Results since that was the most regularly played foreign based tourney (although Korean participation was allowed). If Scan were discounted and his wins given to the runner up + Show Spoiler [see list of runners up here] + 3 Sziky 1 Jumper (p) 1 Bakuryu 1 Pro7ect 1 Mr. Chi-city (P) 1 Terror 1 Orz (another Korean terran) 1 Eonzerg 1 Cryoc 2 Trutacz 1 Djem5 then we'd reach the following stats - 71 Tourneys played: 40 Zerg wins (56.3% winrate) 18 Terran wins (25.3% winrate) 13 Protoss wins (18.3% winrate) Show nested quote + On October 25 2016 19:30 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 25 2016 09:09 DarkNetHunter wrote: The statistical evidence here is very weak on an overall scale. Feelings about perceived strengths and weaknesses of a race are pretty bad indicators of actual balance, especially when we're no longer considering Pro-level BW. The amateur BW scene is terrible to draw on because 90% or more of all games are played on Fighting Spirit and meanwhile CB, which means map balance is going to play a huge factor. Numerous ex-pros have already stated FS favours Terran in TvZ. Flash was/is the best player to play this game, is it surprising that someone who had that level of prowess and motivation in a pro environment is going to destroy weaker opponents in Terrans favourable matchup on a favourable map in an amateur environment? Unless we see Jaedong return in full form I doubt we'll see TvZ with him being a contentious issue. For a better understanding of Terran dominance over the years check out this thread by LegalLord which is really good and overlooked. Anyway Zerg players here should quit crying, Protoss have a much tougher lot in life in the pro scene. As for foreigners.. Remember any good foreign Terrans in the past years that could dominate zergs? Yeah me neither. There are no crying zergs here. You should read more carefully what has been written in this thread. The article that you linked to pretty much confirms most of what has been said so far here that T>Z. Some map issues have also been discussed. Zerg's dominance in the foreigner scene in 2012-2013 has also been mentioned by me. Even though that the thread is mostly about T-Z, it has been mentioned that Z>P. That FlaSh can do the 14-0 challenge vs the top4 zergs on FS and CB and expect to win a good amount also. LegalLord did a fine work there but quantitative data is not everything. When addressing issues like these, qualitative data is also important, if not even more important. Crying is maybe too strong a word, but I read complaints about not being able to 1 shot SCVs with less than 7 mutas or that scouting is imbalanced because scvs have 60hp (which they can't regenerate for free on their own). Every race in BW has a favourable matchup, including T>Z and no one has disputed that. However your posts in particular stand out in that you are pushing that T>>Z to a huge extent, when the evidence suggests that Z>>P has been a much bigger and major factor throughout BW history. FlaSh being able to do 14-0 challenge is a hypothesis, and unless you can donate enough for him to test it, there is no reason to suggest that it's real or even likely based on some random ladder games. When you say you expect him to win a good amount also, should anyone expect anything different? Wouldn't it seem like a major fuckup if the best Terran that ever played this game playing his race' let alone his own favourable matchup on maps that favour TvZ doesn't win 'a good amount also' ? Qualitative data is important, but what you're arguing isn't what I would qualify as data. If you were to look into individual Korean top level games and draw evidence from these for your arguments in TvZ, I'd understand that. Instead you're arguing that TvZ is imba because 1 Base builds are viable in your head (can you list 10 Korean tournament games in the last 2years with 1base TvZ (excluding BBS)?) and 60hp scvs and stuff are imbalanced, does that seem like evidence to you? I'll quote you here Show nested quote + I am not sure how to fully quantify and describe the supposed by my experience ZvT imbalance. These are all thoughts of mine on the matter that seemingly to me describe well the reality. Perhaps it's a combination of tiny influences from a vast range of factors that adds up to the feeling that ZvT is imbalanced. The numbers leave me with the feeling that FlaSh is still maintaining his top shape, while others maybe have deteriorated. Nevertheless, the unsaid feeling of the ZvT imbalance, have been around for years before FlaSh started playing, at least in my eyes. And yes, saviOr and July really had their valueable contributions to the zerg race. Your thoughts are valuable, but they only reflect your personal opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that, we're all just nerds sharing BW thoughts on a forum anyway, but statistical analysis is definitely a stronger method of bringing a point across than anecdotal evidence. I think you should consider evidence presented to you, such as that of Shalashaska_123 and view facts instead of feelings more strongly. I respect the fact that you've played at a very high level for some of the longest time, but I feel like does not make your arguments stronger but rather weaker since you're more likely to be influenced by past experiences (such as recently improved map making (since you still were mentioning LT)) than results from Tournaments. The quantitative data provided by LegalLord is very nice done IMO but do not account for much of the in-game stuff that is going on in TvZ. Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks and is playing a bigger amount of the time "in the dark" compared to terran. The factors that influence the T>>Z imbalance perhaps are plenty, maybe even relatively tiny but they probably compound enough to make for the T>>Z imbalance. I metaphorically described that. Also the stated by you "recently improved map making" is not something that is occuring. I posted something about exactly that as well. For the second time - I think you should re-read my posts, but this time more carefully, if you ever read them. If you are going to selectively pick a sentence out of a hundred from my posts, disregarding the whole logic, I won't be replying to you. | ||
DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
As for your comment on maps, you were the one referencing your own experience on air maps or LT as evidence, rather than considering a 'recent' map such as Fighting Spirit. I did read your little back and forth with Freakling and I strongly believe that map making can provide balance that the Koreans haven't touched yet. What I'm saying though is that recent maps such as CB or FS were already vast improvements over maps in old times. Here's a few examples of your posts and some responses, just to prove I've read your stuff. LRM)TechnicS wrote: Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Attack with a medic or dropship? I'll be impressed. You forgot some viable zerg units overlord (omg it's so imba it's mobile free detection and dropship for supply you need anyway), queens, guardians, ultras, defilers. Then immediately after that you dismiss Cryocs counter-argument and say you were only referring to early game, which you didn't say anywhere in your own post. LRM)TechnicS wrote: I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? Yes, zerglings. Ever watched Kwanro play? Mutas and Lurkers require different responses from T by 6minute mark, by 10min you should have Hive already. LRM)TechnicS wrote: I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has. The combination of units a Zerg needs to defend anything a terran can throw at him early game is..zerglings and sunken colonies. If you count Siege into early game, then zerg can expand possibilities to hydra/muta to counter anything. If 1 base builds were good you'd see pro players playing them in tournies. Your response to Cryoc suggesting you place Hydra Den and Spire LRM)TechnicS wrote: Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources and time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Well I guess by this logic if Flash, Last etc. don't do 1base builds 95% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. ... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability 7 Mutas kill an scv, using the a + m-click method you're almost always going to kill one. Either way the Terran doesn't know if you have 7mutas or 9, he has to build full complement of turrets and keep mnm to defend. You can add more muta with the next larva if you want to harass harder or not. 2 Hydras can be used for lurkers, which you want anyway. LRM)TechnicS wrote: Overall, I view the ZvT matchup when we account for decent Z and decent T, from the Z perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from T perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). Imagine I replaced ZvT with TvP here, read this, sounds pretty normal for most Terran players. Overall, I view the TvP matchup when we account for decent T and decent P, from the T perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from P perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). which leads me to what Jealous wrote and your response where you just go off on tangents about your own experience, how foreigner terrans are not a problem to begin with and Scan shouldn't have been allowed to play in TL tourneys (relevant to the topic, how?) What Jealous wrote is 100% true, anyone can come up with a convincing narrative, you didn't make up numbers because you don't have any numbers or vods to backup any of your statements to begin with. On October 23 2016 01:16 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 00:46 Jealous wrote: Honestly Technics, if Terran was so overwhelmingly imbalanced all this time, then why would anyone play Zerg? At some point it would become obvious that playing Zerg is not viable, and proteams would structure accordingly - Protoss and Terran players only. Why pay Zergs money and house them when Terran is the better race, so in theory if you're raising a player from scratch then making them play Terran is the way to go? As you know, this was not the case. I do believe there is a slight T>Z>P>T circle going around, which is corroborated by statistics, but the number of posts you made and the amount of reasons you're trying to present as facts (when really they are mostly made-up numbers and interpretations of what you perceive the game to be) is just coming off as blatant balance whine and not very substantiated whine at that. I could write a narrative in the same manner about any match-up, even the reverse (TvZ being hard for T) if I selectively pull information that supports my biased agenda. You're a Zerg, you struggle with ZvT, so you look for reasons in the game as opposed to solutions in yourself. I'm sorry to say this but there have been many great Zerg champions over the years. To become a champion you have to win consistently against the best of the best Terrans (unless you're July on his 3rd OSL). Zergs have been winning the most recent Korean SLs. The foreign scene was/is(?) completely dominated by Zergs for the past few years. And even during the KeSPA era, Zerg representation in both tournaments and teams in general was always healthy - and I trust the coaching staff + progamers' decision-making far more than I trust yours. If they didn't think Zerg was too weak against Terran, then it probably wasn't the case. Tell me one number that I made up please. edit: And what % of the total amount of numbers I gave these made up numbers are? I could not write a narrative on every match up. I'm z user and won't dare to write extensively on TvP or PvT imbalances. I like playing PvT but dislike playing TvP. I don't know the game minute by minute there with all the viable variations and combinations as in ZvP, ZvT and TvZ and PvZ. While you sir? What race have you played competitively? I don't think I struggle vs foreigner Terrans. I feel fine in my abilities in all the MUs. If you are interested, my main struggle in competitive BW so far was to show the skills and abilities that I present in practice games to resemble well what I do in tournament games. I play much better in practice games than in tournament games. This distinction of two player types - one that performs significantly better in practice and another - significantly better in tournaments - was also made by Grrrr... in some interview, if that's anyhow valid. To the question - why people invested time, resources and efforts to play and sponsor/house zergs? As I said T>>Z, but Z>P IMO. But notice how I placed two times ">" for the T-Z imbalance, while only one ">" in the Z-P one. Besides that I don't know? Because they liked doing so? I played competitively for many years without even questioning this kind of stuff and now I realize how much I suffered when playing vs T for reasons like weird maps, air maps, lag on bnet, terran being made stronger by Blizz until they started work on WC3 and now the latest 2base modern variations of builds. And yes, if you are raising a player from scratch - whatever that even means - playing Terran should yield better results atm. If indeed the most pros in Korea are terrans, that itself alone speak enough, at least for me. edit2: and for the long posts and their number, it's just me when I try to defend an argument I think corresponds to the reality somewhat well. Now seems obvious that Scan shouldn't have been allowed in the last TL events right? He is a Korean offracing vs a top foreigner for a 14-0 challenge, barely pays attention to the games and wins 11-3. Claims he is tied with or better than many known top korean BW streamers atm. However, at the time, I had to post a number of lengthy posts to persuade a number of people that Scan not playig in these is the most sensible thing to do for the described for foreigners TL events. On October 24 2016 07:01 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 04:31 ortseam wrote: Wow can't believe this is still going on, I actually gathered stats from the most important tournaments in 2015-2016 (i started from SSL 10, including all TLPD leagues): TvZ: 198-180 (52.4%) ZvP: 168-108 (60.9%) PvT: 197-210 (48.4%) Top places per race (1st-2nd): T: 9-10 Z:11-7 P:3-6 Throughout the years, in my eyes, most tournaments were consisted of mostly terrans and zergs with very few protoss players. Also, to my knowledge, historically protosses are the least successful in obtaining major tournament top 1 titles. They don't even have a bonjwa. But it is somewhat comforting to have 2 protosses next to only 1 z and 1 t in the TaekBangLeeSsang. But I can't defend protosses for their weaknesess as heartedly as zergs for the supposed ZvT imbalance. Most probably that is because I haven't been playing so much PvZ throughout the years. I've had plenty of ZvT (and it's never enough) though. And I really like to offrace PvZ. I used to offrace PvZ vs the bulgarian terran LameR a lot before and he was genuinely advicing me to switch to P. Perhaps i should have listened. Again all you're saying is that your personal experience is that ZvT is imbalanced, when tournament results and statistics suggest that ZvP is more imbalanced. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
The best 3 zergs in the world have win rates barely breaking 50-60% against average pro terrans (People are probably going to object but here it goes: sea, mong, sharp, piano, sSak). Hero had a sub 50% win rate one particular month and seeing Effort's, hero's and zero's win rates these past few months against terran has been quite depressing (around the 55% mark). This win rate is against all the pro terrans, so not exclusively against Flash and Last who are the best of the best currently. On the other hand you have Bisu, who manages to get a 70% win rate against the top 3 Zergs albeit it did include a 16-0 series against larva (lol). Whenever I watch PvZ I see tons of mistakes by the protoss players that I often don't see being made by Bisu (overstaying with the remainders of an attacking force, not doing enough storm drops or other forms of harassment, bad corsair control,...). + Show Spoiler [Bisu's win rates etc in September] + On October 02 2016 20:46 classicyellow83 wrote: #1 Bisu PvZ: 39-12 (76.4%) PvT: 61-35 (63.5%) PvP: 7-2 (77.7%) Overall: 107-49 (68.5%) Opponents: Zerg: Zero 4-3, Miso 2-0, Hero 9-5, Effort 8-4, Larva 16-0 Terran: Last 14-16, Light 0-2, Flash 8-8, Mong 2-1, Ample 1-0, Piano 1-0, FireBatHero 2-0, Hiya 3-0, Sharp 3-0, ssak 5-0, Mid 5-0, Sea 17-8 Protoss: Sky 0-1, Movie 2-1, Shuttle 1-0, Zeus 1-0, Tyson 1-0, Guemchi 2-0 | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 26 2016 03:23 DarkNetHunter wrote: I don't have the time or interest to pick apart all of your posts individually, the only 'whole logic' stemming from them is that you're pulling statements out of nowhere and are not providing evidence besides your own experience to support your statements. There's again nothing wrong with this, but quit making it out like I've not read your stuff or that you have anything else to back it up that you've posted. As for your comment on maps, you were the one referencing your own experience on air maps or LT as evidence, rather than considering a 'recent' map such as Fighting Spirit. I did read your little back and forth with Freakling and I strongly believe that map making can provide balance that the Koreans haven't touched yet. What I'm saying though is that recent maps such as CB or FS were already vast improvements over maps in old times. Here's a few examples of your posts and some responses, just to prove I've read your stuff. Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Attack with a medic or dropship? I'll be impressed. You forgot some viable zerg units overlord (omg it's so imba it's mobile free detection and dropship for supply you need anyway), queens, guardians, ultras, defilers. Then immediately after that you dismiss Cryocs counter-argument and say you were only referring to early game, which you didn't say anywhere in your own post. Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? Yes, zerglings. Ever watched Kwanro play? Mutas and Lurkers require different responses from T by 6minute mark, by 10min you should have Hive already. Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has. The combination of units a Zerg needs to defend anything a terran can throw at him early game is..zerglings and sunken colonies. If you count Siege into early game, then zerg can expand possibilities to hydra/muta to counter anything. If 1 base builds were good you'd see pro players playing them in tournies. Your response to Cryoc suggesting you place Hydra Den and Spire Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources and time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Well I guess by this logic if Flash, Last etc. don't do 1base builds 95% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Show nested quote + ... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability 7 Mutas kill an scv, using the a + m-click method you're almost always going to kill one. Either way the Terran doesn't know if you have 7mutas or 9, he has to build full complement of turrets and keep mnm to defend. You can add more muta with the next larva if you want to harass harder or not. 2 Hydras can be used for lurkers, which you want anyway. Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: Overall, I view the ZvT matchup when we account for decent Z and decent T, from the Z perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from T perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). Imagine I replaced ZvT with TvP here, read this, sounds pretty normal for most Terran players. Overall, I view the TvP matchup when we account for decent T and decent P, from the T perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from P perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). which leads me to what Jealous wrote and your response where you just go off on tangents about your own experience, how foreigner terrans are not a problem to begin with and Scan shouldn't have been allowed to play in TL tourneys (relevant to the topic, how?) What Jealous wrote is 100% true, anyone can come up with a convincing narrative, you didn't make up numbers because you don't have any numbers or vods to backup any of your statements to begin with. Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 01:16 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 23 2016 00:46 Jealous wrote: Honestly Technics, if Terran was so overwhelmingly imbalanced all this time, then why would anyone play Zerg? At some point it would become obvious that playing Zerg is not viable, and proteams would structure accordingly - Protoss and Terran players only. Why pay Zergs money and house them when Terran is the better race, so in theory if you're raising a player from scratch then making them play Terran is the way to go? As you know, this was not the case. I do believe there is a slight T>Z>P>T circle going around, which is corroborated by statistics, but the number of posts you made and the amount of reasons you're trying to present as facts (when really they are mostly made-up numbers and interpretations of what you perceive the game to be) is just coming off as blatant balance whine and not very substantiated whine at that. I could write a narrative in the same manner about any match-up, even the reverse (TvZ being hard for T) if I selectively pull information that supports my biased agenda. You're a Zerg, you struggle with ZvT, so you look for reasons in the game as opposed to solutions in yourself. I'm sorry to say this but there have been many great Zerg champions over the years. To become a champion you have to win consistently against the best of the best Terrans (unless you're July on his 3rd OSL). Zergs have been winning the most recent Korean SLs. The foreign scene was/is(?) completely dominated by Zergs for the past few years. And even during the KeSPA era, Zerg representation in both tournaments and teams in general was always healthy - and I trust the coaching staff + progamers' decision-making far more than I trust yours. If they didn't think Zerg was too weak against Terran, then it probably wasn't the case. Tell me one number that I made up please. edit: And what % of the total amount of numbers I gave these made up numbers are? I could not write a narrative on every match up. I'm z user and won't dare to write extensively on TvP or PvT imbalances. I like playing PvT but dislike playing TvP. I don't know the game minute by minute there with all the viable variations and combinations as in ZvP, ZvT and TvZ and PvZ. While you sir? What race have you played competitively? I don't think I struggle vs foreigner Terrans. I feel fine in my abilities in all the MUs. If you are interested, my main struggle in competitive BW so far was to show the skills and abilities that I present in practice games to resemble well what I do in tournament games. I play much better in practice games than in tournament games. This distinction of two player types - one that performs significantly better in practice and another - significantly better in tournaments - was also made by Grrrr... in some interview, if that's anyhow valid. To the question - why people invested time, resources and efforts to play and sponsor/house zergs? As I said T>>Z, but Z>P IMO. But notice how I placed two times ">" for the T-Z imbalance, while only one ">" in the Z-P one. Besides that I don't know? Because they liked doing so? I played competitively for many years without even questioning this kind of stuff and now I realize how much I suffered when playing vs T for reasons like weird maps, air maps, lag on bnet, terran being made stronger by Blizz until they started work on WC3 and now the latest 2base modern variations of builds. And yes, if you are raising a player from scratch - whatever that even means - playing Terran should yield better results atm. If indeed the most pros in Korea are terrans, that itself alone speak enough, at least for me. edit2: and for the long posts and their number, it's just me when I try to defend an argument I think corresponds to the reality somewhat well. Now seems obvious that Scan shouldn't have been allowed in the last TL events right? He is a Korean offracing vs a top foreigner for a 14-0 challenge, barely pays attention to the games and wins 11-3. Claims he is tied with or better than many known top korean BW streamers atm. However, at the time, I had to post a number of lengthy posts to persuade a number of people that Scan not playig in these is the most sensible thing to do for the described for foreigners TL events. Show nested quote + On October 24 2016 07:01 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 24 2016 04:31 ortseam wrote: Wow can't believe this is still going on, I actually gathered stats from the most important tournaments in 2015-2016 (i started from SSL 10, including all TLPD leagues): TvZ: 198-180 (52.4%) ZvP: 168-108 (60.9%) PvT: 197-210 (48.4%) Top places per race (1st-2nd): T: 9-10 Z:11-7 P:3-6 Throughout the years, in my eyes, most tournaments were consisted of mostly terrans and zergs with very few protoss players. Also, to my knowledge, historically protosses are the least successful in obtaining major tournament top 1 titles. They don't even have a bonjwa. But it is somewhat comforting to have 2 protosses next to only 1 z and 1 t in the TaekBangLeeSsang. But I can't defend protosses for their weaknesess as heartedly as zergs for the supposed ZvT imbalance. Most probably that is because I haven't been playing so much PvZ throughout the years. I've had plenty of ZvT (and it's never enough) though. And I really like to offrace PvZ. I used to offrace PvZ vs the bulgarian terran LameR a lot before and he was genuinely advicing me to switch to P. Perhaps i should have listened. Again all you're saying is that your personal experience is that ZvT is imbalanced, when tournament results and statistics suggest that ZvP is more imbalanced. I referenced Scan defending the length of my posts, it has nothing to do with the T-Z theme here. It is obvious to just everybody now that he shouldn't have been allowed, while back then a lot of people were defending him so I was writing lenghty posts, as I am now. Could you also please give some opinion on the matter that Blizzard were making terran stronger in the last patches where they changed balance, while making zerg and protoss weaker? Or this is not a fact to you? Also I am not sure that I am the one "pulling statements out of nowhere here". From LegalLord "On the aggregate, we get the favorable matchups with ZvP (54.7%) > TvZ (54.4%) > PvT (52.6%)". Judging from these numbers it's more like TvZ is as imbalanced as ZvP. But this data do not account for all the risks a zerg is taking throughout the whole game to survive and fair well. This doesn't account for the fact that terran scouts zerg well early while zerg does not and zerg is "in the dark" a bigger amount of the time while Terran has a lot of viable options to attack and defend cheaply with. Did you know that a 12hatch build on a 2 player map by a zerg could very well be considered a gamble? Do you know why? If you can provide numbers and statistics to answer these questions, I would be pleased to see them. But for now, the "data" does not answer these questions. The "data" won't answer you why Jaedong, without doing a single mistake vs FlaSh on Match Point on that WCG, lost in that game. Qualitative interpretations become a good tool to explain imbalances. Even though I do not consider my opinion on the TvP issue of not as much value. The methaphor I used to describe the ZvT perspective is not as valid for the TvP match perspective. Terran has cheap and strong static defence - turrets, bunkers, mines, tanks. Terran just builds a bunker and 6 turrets in total and you deny all possible harass by protoss in early game. The worries for defence are nowhere near as big as the ones a zerg have vs Terran. Also there's the early marine, tank, vulture push that is done very frequently and gains quite a lot of intelligence, where as with zerg I don't think that is the case. Also you don't have hive by 10th minute of the game unless you want to sacrifice your eco a lot to make guardian and ultra rushes. This only shows that you haven't experienced ZvT at high level of play and don't know the timings of the ZvT matchup. This is some of the kind of experience I am talking here. Well, Terrans use in almost all their attacks medics against zerg up until the 20th minute of the game. It's just a unit frequently used in attacking. While zergs dont send overlords to tank damage for example? Also dropships are pretty frequently used for harrass, dropships are usually the way terrans get back into the game when behind. I hope you have watched such games, because in the, belittled by you, experience of mine, there are plenty of TvZ games where Terrans use the dropship in their attacking arsenal SIGNIFICANTLY more often than zergs use overlord for drops and/or anything else considered part of an attack. And for the Nth time - you can't make queens, guardians and ultras viable pre 10th minute on FS and use it super often. On the other hand T is better off hiding its build order pretty well and go for whatever he wants inside his ling tight walls in the main or on the natural. Faking lurker and mutalisk rushes is very hard to pull off and it is also very expensive. This is a very big and real risk for zerg to not prepare attacks and defences at proper moments. Harassing with 7 mutas is not viable vs decent T. When was the last time you saw somebody do it? Link to the game or rep please? Almost nobody does it or has been doing it throughout time on a relatively high level of play. Waiting for the opponent to scan to trick him is not viable. While on the other hand Shinee does 1 base builds all the time, 2base fac and 1base 2port wraiths and he is top 1 fish since ever. Does that evidence fit your criteria? More recently "stranger" builds have been employed by Light and Fantasy. 2 port wraith from 1 base - is that frequently used build order a good evidence to you? 3port wraith by Light (I believe) vs Jaedong is fine for you? Even Advokate almost took down Jaedong in a bo3 with a mix of build orders that is very well in line with my arguments - T 1 base builds are viable and have been played throughout the years in tournaments and in competitive play in general. Map making is significantly better than 10 years ago, but if Rose.of.Dream does not know how to balance mineral patches in the main base, why can we trust him for the rest? | ||
DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On October 26 2016 03:40 B-royal wrote: I don't have the time right now, but I just wanted to add that there have been some useful numbers. The best 3 zergs in the world have win rates barely breaking 50-60% against average pro terrans (People are probably going to object but here it goes: sea, mong, sharp, piano, sSak). Hero had a sub 50% win rate one particular month and seeing Effort's, hero's and zero's win rates these past few months against terran has been quite depressing (around the 55% mark). This win rate is against all the pro terrans, so not exclusively against Flash and Last who are the best of the best currently. On the other hand you have Bisu, who manages to get a 70% win rate against the top 3 Zergs albeit it did include a 16-0 series against larva (lol). Whenever I watch PvZ I see tons of mistakes by the protoss players that I often don't see being made by Bisu (overstaying with the remainders of an attacking force, not doing enough storm drops or other forms of harassment, bad corsair control,...). + Show Spoiler [Bisu's win rates etc in September] + On October 02 2016 20:46 classicyellow83 wrote: #1 Bisu PvZ: 39-12 (76.4%) PvT: 61-35 (63.5%) PvP: 7-2 (77.7%) Overall: 107-49 (68.5%) Opponents: Zerg: Zero 4-3, Miso 2-0, Hero 9-5, Effort 8-4, Larva 16-0 Terran: Last 14-16, Light 0-2, Flash 8-8, Mong 2-1, Ample 1-0, Piano 1-0, FireBatHero 2-0, Hiya 3-0, Sharp 3-0, ssak 5-0, Mid 5-0, Sea 17-8 Protoss: Sky 0-1, Movie 2-1, Shuttle 1-0, Zeus 1-0, Tyson 1-0, Guemchi 2-0 Your avg pro Terrans are all tournament winners in the post Kespa era, if I'm not completely mistaken. Why should the best zergs have more than 50-60% winrate in a matchup that doesn't favour them vs good opponents? Bisu is obviously the most gifted PvZ player of all time, nothing to argue there, but even he lost to Effort in the 2015 VANT36.5 National Starleague. Since laddering is pretty random (as a lot of the streamers tend to do random shit and not take their win rates too seriously) I just checked out TLPD Broodwar Amateur Tournaments (First page of 20 Tournaments) + Show Spoiler + Protoss - Shuttle - 2016 Afreeca Starleague Terran - Last - 2016 Kim Carry Starcraft Myeongin League Zerg - Larva - 2016 41 Ranking Tournament Season 1 Zerg - ZerO - 2016 Terror NINUS Starleague Terran - Mong - 2015 41 Starleague Season 4 Zerg - Zero - 2016 GaePpulBae SikSin League Zerg - EffOrt - 2015 VANT36.5 National Starleague Zerg - ZerO - 2015 Spotimes Starleague Season 2 Protoss - Shuttle - 2015 Spicy Rice Cake Tournament Season 2 Terran - Sea - 2015 KDS Starleague Season 2 Zerg - by.hero - 2015 Bisu Blind League Terran - Sea - 2015 Spicy Rice Cake Tournament Season 1 Zerg - EffOrt - 2015 Spotimes Starleague Zerg - by.hero - 2015 SBENU 11th SonicTV BJ Starleague with OnGameNet Terran - Sea - 2015 Draemong Starleague Zerg - by.hero - 2015 Seaside Super Tournament Protoss - Bisu - 2015 Terror TEMPTS Starleague Zerg - EffOrt - 2015 41 Maki Starleague Season 1 Terran - Mind - 2015 HoSic BJ Starleague Season 2 Zerg -ZerO - 2015 PianO Starleague 20 Tournaments 11 Zerg 55% 6 Terran 45% 3 Protoss 15% really looking bad for Zergs these days right? | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Or how do you imagine 100 mutalisks stacked 1 over another in the air shooting at the same time at the same target from the same angle? | ||
DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On October 26 2016 04:49 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2016 03:23 DarkNetHunter wrote: I don't have the time or interest to pick apart all of your posts individually, the only 'whole logic' stemming from them is that you're pulling statements out of nowhere and are not providing evidence besides your own experience to support your statements. There's again nothing wrong with this, but quit making it out like I've not read your stuff or that you have anything else to back it up that you've posted. As for your comment on maps, you were the one referencing your own experience on air maps or LT as evidence, rather than considering a 'recent' map such as Fighting Spirit. I did read your little back and forth with Freakling and I strongly believe that map making can provide balance that the Koreans haven't touched yet. What I'm saying though is that recent maps such as CB or FS were already vast improvements over maps in old times. Here's a few examples of your posts and some responses, just to prove I've read your stuff. LRM)TechnicS wrote: Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable. Attack with a medic or dropship? I'll be impressed. You forgot some viable zerg units overlord (omg it's so imba it's mobile free detection and dropship for supply you need anyway), queens, guardians, ultras, defilers. Then immediately after that you dismiss Cryocs counter-argument and say you were only referring to early game, which you didn't say anywhere in your own post. LRM)TechnicS wrote: I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker? Yes, zerglings. Ever watched Kwanro play? Mutas and Lurkers require different responses from T by 6minute mark, by 10min you should have Hive already. LRM)TechnicS wrote: I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has. The combination of units a Zerg needs to defend anything a terran can throw at him early game is..zerglings and sunken colonies. If you count Siege into early game, then zerg can expand possibilities to hydra/muta to counter anything. If 1 base builds were good you'd see pro players playing them in tournies. Your response to Cryoc suggesting you place Hydra Den and Spire LRM)TechnicS wrote: Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources and time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Well I guess by this logic if Flash, Last etc. don't do 1base builds 95% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. ... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability 7 Mutas kill an scv, using the a + m-click method you're almost always going to kill one. Either way the Terran doesn't know if you have 7mutas or 9, he has to build full complement of turrets and keep mnm to defend. You can add more muta with the next larva if you want to harass harder or not. 2 Hydras can be used for lurkers, which you want anyway. LRM)TechnicS wrote: Overall, I view the ZvT matchup when we account for decent Z and decent T, from the Z perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from T perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). Imagine I replaced ZvT with TvP here, read this, sounds pretty normal for most Terran players. Overall, I view the TvP matchup when we account for decent T and decent P, from the T perspective as suffering to survive for a good amount of time to then maybe win, excessive worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with very few "easier and relatively quick " wins (that are not all-ins). While from P perspective as pressuring all game to then maybe win, little worries for proper defending most of the time, mixed with frequent amount of "easier and relatively quick" wins (that are not all-ins). which leads me to what Jealous wrote and your response where you just go off on tangents about your own experience, how foreigner terrans are not a problem to begin with and Scan shouldn't have been allowed to play in TL tourneys (relevant to the topic, how?) What Jealous wrote is 100% true, anyone can come up with a convincing narrative, you didn't make up numbers because you don't have any numbers or vods to backup any of your statements to begin with. On October 23 2016 01:16 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 23 2016 00:46 Jealous wrote: Honestly Technics, if Terran was so overwhelmingly imbalanced all this time, then why would anyone play Zerg? At some point it would become obvious that playing Zerg is not viable, and proteams would structure accordingly - Protoss and Terran players only. Why pay Zergs money and house them when Terran is the better race, so in theory if you're raising a player from scratch then making them play Terran is the way to go? As you know, this was not the case. I do believe there is a slight T>Z>P>T circle going around, which is corroborated by statistics, but the number of posts you made and the amount of reasons you're trying to present as facts (when really they are mostly made-up numbers and interpretations of what you perceive the game to be) is just coming off as blatant balance whine and not very substantiated whine at that. I could write a narrative in the same manner about any match-up, even the reverse (TvZ being hard for T) if I selectively pull information that supports my biased agenda. You're a Zerg, you struggle with ZvT, so you look for reasons in the game as opposed to solutions in yourself. I'm sorry to say this but there have been many great Zerg champions over the years. To become a champion you have to win consistently against the best of the best Terrans (unless you're July on his 3rd OSL). Zergs have been winning the most recent Korean SLs. The foreign scene was/is(?) completely dominated by Zergs for the past few years. And even during the KeSPA era, Zerg representation in both tournaments and teams in general was always healthy - and I trust the coaching staff + progamers' decision-making far more than I trust yours. If they didn't think Zerg was too weak against Terran, then it probably wasn't the case. Tell me one number that I made up please. edit: And what % of the total amount of numbers I gave these made up numbers are? I could not write a narrative on every match up. I'm z user and won't dare to write extensively on TvP or PvT imbalances. I like playing PvT but dislike playing TvP. I don't know the game minute by minute there with all the viable variations and combinations as in ZvP, ZvT and TvZ and PvZ. While you sir? What race have you played competitively? I don't think I struggle vs foreigner Terrans. I feel fine in my abilities in all the MUs. If you are interested, my main struggle in competitive BW so far was to show the skills and abilities that I present in practice games to resemble well what I do in tournament games. I play much better in practice games than in tournament games. This distinction of two player types - one that performs significantly better in practice and another - significantly better in tournaments - was also made by Grrrr... in some interview, if that's anyhow valid. To the question - why people invested time, resources and efforts to play and sponsor/house zergs? As I said T>>Z, but Z>P IMO. But notice how I placed two times ">" for the T-Z imbalance, while only one ">" in the Z-P one. Besides that I don't know? Because they liked doing so? I played competitively for many years without even questioning this kind of stuff and now I realize how much I suffered when playing vs T for reasons like weird maps, air maps, lag on bnet, terran being made stronger by Blizz until they started work on WC3 and now the latest 2base modern variations of builds. And yes, if you are raising a player from scratch - whatever that even means - playing Terran should yield better results atm. If indeed the most pros in Korea are terrans, that itself alone speak enough, at least for me. edit2: and for the long posts and their number, it's just me when I try to defend an argument I think corresponds to the reality somewhat well. Now seems obvious that Scan shouldn't have been allowed in the last TL events right? He is a Korean offracing vs a top foreigner for a 14-0 challenge, barely pays attention to the games and wins 11-3. Claims he is tied with or better than many known top korean BW streamers atm. However, at the time, I had to post a number of lengthy posts to persuade a number of people that Scan not playig in these is the most sensible thing to do for the described for foreigners TL events. On October 24 2016 07:01 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 24 2016 04:31 ortseam wrote: Wow can't believe this is still going on, I actually gathered stats from the most important tournaments in 2015-2016 (i started from SSL 10, including all TLPD leagues): TvZ: 198-180 (52.4%) ZvP: 168-108 (60.9%) PvT: 197-210 (48.4%) Top places per race (1st-2nd): T: 9-10 Z:11-7 P:3-6 Throughout the years, in my eyes, most tournaments were consisted of mostly terrans and zergs with very few protoss players. Also, to my knowledge, historically protosses are the least successful in obtaining major tournament top 1 titles. They don't even have a bonjwa. But it is somewhat comforting to have 2 protosses next to only 1 z and 1 t in the TaekBangLeeSsang. But I can't defend protosses for their weaknesess as heartedly as zergs for the supposed ZvT imbalance. Most probably that is because I haven't been playing so much PvZ throughout the years. I've had plenty of ZvT (and it's never enough) though. And I really like to offrace PvZ. I used to offrace PvZ vs the bulgarian terran LameR a lot before and he was genuinely advicing me to switch to P. Perhaps i should have listened. Again all you're saying is that your personal experience is that ZvT is imbalanced, when tournament results and statistics suggest that ZvP is more imbalanced. I referenced Scan defending the length of my posts, it has nothing to do with the T-Z theme here. It is obvious to just everybody now that he shouldn't have been allowed, while back then a lot of people were defending him so I was writing lenghty posts, as I am now. Could you also please give some opinion on the matter that Blizzard were making terran stronger in the last patches where they changed balance, while making zerg and protoss weaker? Or this is not a fact to you? Also I am not sure that I am the one "pulling statements out of nowhere here". From LegalLord "On the aggregate, we get the favorable matchups with ZvP (54.7%) > TvZ (54.4%) > PvT (52.6%)". Judging from these numbers it's more like TvZ is as imbalanced as ZvP. But this data do not account for all the risks a zerg is taking throughout the whole game to survive and fair well. This doesn't account for the fact that terran scouts zerg well early while zerg does not and zerg is "in the dark" a bigger amount of the time while Terran has a lot of viable options to attack and defend cheaply with. Did you know that a 12hatch build on a 2 player map by a zerg could very well be considered a gamble? Do you know why? If you can provide numbers and statistics to answer these questions, I would be pleased to see them. But for now, the "data" does not answer these questions. The "data" won't answer you why Jaedong, without doing a single mistake vs FlaSh on Match Point on that WCG, lost in that game. Qualitative interpretations become a good tool to explain imbalances. Blizzard was obviously buffing Terran, presumably based on ladder evidence, but who knows why. The buffs for Terran are in the patch notes, most of it in patch 1.04, but even in the last balance patch 1.08 they decreased costs for queens and supply for ultra to make these units more viable, so the narrative that they're only weakening Zerg and Protoss isn't a fact. Why would we discuss Blizzard who as you yourself said had no interest beyond 2001 in balancing BW and maps were still in their infancy then? The scouting deficit for Zerg can be improved by having better overlord placement spots on maps (you basically get to see T nat/movement til way past vessel if correctly). Anyway I'm not arguing that Zerg doesn't have a scouting deficit. 12 Hatch is a gamble on 2player maps because proxies for T become much more viable if he knows Z starting position, the same for ebay block shenanigans etc. I don't need numbers or statistics to answer that question since I'm not making huge claims that TvZ is so imbalanced compared to other matchups, which you have no evidence to support. On October 26 2016 04:49 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Even though I do not consider my opinion on the TvP issue of not as much value. The methaphor I used to describe the ZvT perspective is not as valid for the TvP match perspective. Terran has cheap and strong static defence - turrets, bunkers, mines, tanks. Terran just builds a bunker and 6 turrets in total and you deny all possible harass by protoss in early game. The worries for defence are nowhere near as big as the ones a zerg have vs Terran. Also there's the early marine, tank, vulture push that is done very frequently and gains quite a lot of intelligence, where as with zerg I don't think that is the case. Also you don't have hive by 10th minute of the game unless you want to sacrifice your eco a lot to make guardian and ultra rushes. This only shows that you haven't experienced ZvT at high level of play and don't know the timings of the ZvT matchup. This is some of the kind of experience I am talking here. Zerg has stronger static defense than Terran, (mines and tanks are not static defense, though they can be used defensively). By your logic, zerg can build a sunk or two and thus deny 99% of harass in early game. The worries are equal to those Zergs have vs Terrans, not to mention you are put behind economically if you spend too much on defense, the same as in every matchup. If you're referring to the FD push in TvP, yes it gains intelligence, but it will still be too late to save you vs some proxy builds, with zerg you can scout T marine count with ling, you can usually even sneak a ling into nat mineral line to force him to send some rines so you can count. If you haven't got hive by 10 minute mark then you're not playing optimally, see Jaedong vs Flash on Tau Cross here for evidence. I did not state you have hive units out harassing or doing things by 10min, but hive options are available then. I never claimed to have high level experience of play nor of timings, but I'm perfectly capable of observing games and replays and basing sound conclusions from them. I think arguing experience is fruitless, none of us have played in pro circles in Korea during the KeSPA era (exceptions to this would be Idra, Draco etc.), so there is no reason to base anything off our own experiences. On October 26 2016 04:49 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Well, Terrans use in almost all their attacks medics against zerg up until the 20th minute of the game. It's just a unit frequently used in attacking. While zergs dont send overlords to tank damage for example? Also dropships are pretty frequently used for harrass, dropships are usually the way terrans get back into the game when behind. I hope you have watched such games, because in the, belittled by you, experience of mine, there are plenty of TvZ games where Terrans use the dropship in their attacking arsenal SIGNIFICANTLY more often than zergs use overlord for drops and/or anything else considered part of an attack. And for the Nth time - you can't make queens, guardians and ultras viable pre 10th minute on FS and use it super often. On the other hand T is better off hiding its build order pretty well and go for whatever he wants inside his ling tight walls in the main or on the natural. Faking lurker and mutalisk rushes is very hard to pull off and it is also very expensive. This is a very big and real risk for zerg to not prepare attacks and defences at proper moments. Harassing with 7 mutas is not viable vs decent T. When was the last time you saw somebody do it? Link to the game or rep please? Almost nobody does it or has been doing it throughout time on a relatively high level of play. Waiting for the opponent to scan to trick him is not viable. While on the other hand Shinee does 1 base builds all the time, 2base fac and 1base 2port wraiths and he is top 1 fish since ever. Does that evidence fit your criteria? More recently "stranger" builds have been employed by Light and Fantasy. 2 port wraith from 1 base - is that frequently used build order a good evidence to you? 3port wraith by Light (I believe) vs Jaedong is fine for you? Even Advokate almost took down Jaedong in a bo3 with a mix of build orders that is very well in line with my arguments - T 1 base builds are viable and have been played throughout the years in tournaments and in competitive play in general. Map making is significantly better than 10 years ago, but if Rose.of.Dream does not know how to balance mineral patches in the main base, why can we trust him for the rest? Medics still can't attack, they participate in engagements, you were the one nitpicking over unit usage, I was just pointing out your flawed argumentation and use of language. Dropships again don't attack, they provide an avenue of attack. I never said you could make queens or anything else viable before 10minutes on FS, quit arguing things that aren't even being discussed. You're right it is difficult to pull off, but it's not expensive as you need the buildings and tech anyway. You don't need the 7mutas to harass immediately, you just need to have the threat so that T is forced to build turrets/stay in base, with your next round of larva you can still get enough mutas to make normal harass viable if that is what you want to pursue. Again you're referring to ladder games by Shinee, which are a bad indicator as their seriousness can't be judged, unless you have a tournament game you'd like to point out? Generally referencing anything in the 'amateur' time of BW for a race balance argument isn't very strong, but you should at least focus on offline/online tournaments with prize pools and significant players participating. 2port wraith is a viable build on specific maps and I never claimed that 1base builds were completely impossible, just their lack of appearance in tournament play suggests they're not nearly as viable as you make them out to be. Advokate won a single game vs Jaedong using a 2base surprise build, while Jaedong was going Hydra/Lurk. (There are also rumors that Jaedong threw that game since he went visiting the Russians in the dorm the night before, maybe someone else can find the TL post/video related to that). There are no recent tournaments with evidence of 1base builds being very successful. I have no faith in Rose or any other Korean mapmaker to provide better maps until there is a call for it by the Korean community. You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding our conversation here, I'm not trying to prove anything to you because I have no argument to prove. I am just pointing out flaws in your argumentation. You're the one making bold claims about how imbalanced ZvT is compared to other matchups. On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. Or how do you imagine 100 mutalisks stacked 1 over another in the air shooting at the same time at the same target from the same angle? Mutastack is a bug, you can read about the bug and its origins in the CodeofHonor Blog on Teamliquid. Whether it could or should have been removed is open to your own interpretation, other bugs were discovered and not removed (such as infinite stack/attack glitch, gas walk), but they were banned from tournament play. If there had been evidence to suggest air-stacking was going to break the game, then tournaments would have denied its usage. Why would I imagine 100 mutas stacking and shooting, I'm confused what this has to do with anything? If you want to continue our discussion then let us move it to PM. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9363 Posts
On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. Mutastack is not a "bug". It's simply an unintended consequence of a very intended game logic code. BW is full of them, which is what makes it a great game. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
One more thank you for admitting that the scouting deficit for Z is present and is not only in my thoughts. And no, the overlord (if it survives to reach the destination) watching the natural is useful but to a very small degree when looking at the broader picture. I would be really interested in seeing maps that will account for that because it seems hard to be imagined. I can only hope Blizzard wants to put actual work into BW HD, then we have a revival maybe and then we have Freaklingzerg or other talented mapmakers coming out with great map solutions for this idea that you proposed. Also thank you for admitting that the mutastack might be a bug. To me, it's not normal that without airstacking, I will almost be barred from winning decent Terrans. Understand that I want to experiment and play differently - pure hydras, queen's ensnare, guardians play or muta/ling/defiler play but this is just pure theory/fantasy and in reality it's really hard to pull of and zerg gets beaten pretty badly vs good Ts a decent amount. Also Advokate won 1 game vs Jaedong but was interestingly close to winning any of the other two games, perhaps rewatch them. So nowadays nobody's opinion on anything won't count because they are not in pro teams and playing mostly ladder games? For instance the top4 zerg complaints accompanied by FlaSh and Sea admitting that T op vs Z seriously on FS are worthless to you? Thank you also for admitting that T 1base is viable. When Zerg is on any number different than 2 and doing unit different than ling, lurk or muta, maybe hydra and scourge, it is not even viable, let alone you can find it in serious games' archives. Yes, I've seen ZerO win off 1hatch Muta vs decent T but how many times to do u see 1 base Z or 2base hydra play vs T doing miracles in comparison to T1 base builds? Please replay or vod of that 7muta 2 hydra play though. This is complete non-sense of a build for now, nobody has ever done it throughout the years. There are interesting builds that are not standard and could be practiced and polished to achieve good results, but I won't share those. But then again, it's all lurk or muta. Terran has much more options to do well vs Z throughout the whole game. This also accounts for the T>Z imbalance IMO. Also I have to disagree that zerg's static defence is the best represented by buildings. I really do not see how any 1100 mineral - 1100 gas Terran attack investment can be completely denied at whatever the place by a 675 mineral investment by the zerg in static defences. (11 mutas vs 9 turrets). Consider that in this example T has defended 2 bases here, while for zerg there's no such thing as "defending everywhere". Yes, the bunker does need units to be filled up but the bunker can do miracles, like real miracles. Decent terran can kill as many zerglings as he wants to if he has a bunker and a proper walloff which is easy to achieve on most natural expansions. It's very hard to overdefend for T. Zerg has to has just about enough to survive, if he doesn't - he is being taken out of the game early, if he overdefends - he is taken out of the game later. I hope I don't have to provide replays or youtube links to account for that. Please remember that in relating to the supposed T>Z imbalance, I haven't mentioned even once the latest mech switch. I am not even talking mid or late game here to account for the picture at that point in the game. I also suspect that the data that describe the T>Z imbalance as equal to the Z>P cannot account for the latest mech switch as well. As for the discussion, if I had to come up with assumptions about numbers, I am not claiming that T>Z (75%) or something high like that. If it's Z>P (54%), then T>Z must be higher than that. But I guess time will tell on that number. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 26 2016 06:49 2Pacalypse- wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. Mutastack is not a "bug". It's simply an unintended consequence of a very intended game logic code. BW is full of them, which is what makes it a great game. Might be a bug, might be not, I don't like the fact that ZvT now revolves almost exclusively on zerg being able to mutastack. I want to be able to play hydra/ling/ensnare/plague style ZvT for example and not be beaten severely. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Although I agree with most of the things you're saying, and T>Z>P>T isn't that big (54-54-52 is good imo) to be argued over 9 pages in 2016, I just want to disagree with the 7 muta thing. 7 mutas are not going to do anything 7 mins into the game. Terran will always look for engagements even against 9 mutas, if he sees you are weak he can march straight to your 3rd and easily defend any harassment. 7 mutas will very often fail to kill marines with H micro. Also 3 hatch muta needs to have the potential to do damage. It's quite often that Terran misses turret timing by few seconds (at least at pro level where they try to cut it close) which creates a window for harrassment, but 7 mutas will not be able to exploit that. The only way it could be useful would be against a Terran that makes too much defense due to early marine losses imo (and you're still gambling on that) or maybe against 2 rax tech which is almost never seen anymore. Note that the situation is competely different from 6 mutas with 2 hatch timing, because they spawn almost a minute earlier, when Terran will have significantly less of a bio force, making them stronger | ||
DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On October 26 2016 08:58 ortseam wrote: DarkNetHunter + Show Spoiler + Although I agree with most of the things you're saying, and T>Z>P>T isn't that big (54-54-52 is good imo) to be argued over 9 pages in 2016, I just want to disagree with the 7 muta thing. 7 mutas are not going to do anything 7 mins into the game. Terran will always look for engagements even against 9 mutas, if he sees you are weak he can march straight to your 3rd and easily defend any harassment. 7 mutas will very often fail to kill marines with H micro. Also 3 hatch muta needs to have the potential to do damage. It's quite often that Terran misses turret timing by few seconds (at least at pro level where they try to cut it close) which creates a window for harrassment, but 7 mutas will not be able to exploit that. The only way it could be useful would be against a Terran that makes too much defense due to early marine losses imo (and you're still gambling on that) or maybe against 2 rax tech which is almost never seen anymore. Note that the situation is competely different from 6 mutas with 2 hatch timing, because they spawn almost a minute earlier, when Terran will have significantly less of a bio force, making them stronger Thanks, I don't know about the viability either and I was not the one who came up with it, it was just a derivative of the discussion Technics and Cryoc were having that I decided sounded interesting since it was a discussion focused on scouting information. Basically creating unforced errors on the Terran by using his scan limitation (2scans to scout 3 locations). You would only be restricted to 7mutas during the first few seconds though, just as you reinforce your 9mutas to 11 or more you could reinforce the 7 to more as well to defend your third or whatever. I guess it would be more of a gamble that T will commit to same level of defense/stay at home while you transition to lurkers faster instead. I am aware of the differences between 3hatch and 2hatch play =) | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On October 25 2016 02:18 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2016 00:31 Dante08 wrote: Technics, have you ever thought it might just be a coincidence that the top players right now happen to be Terran? If Flash didn't return to BW and JD was in his place and tearing Terrans apart left and right we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. Also discussing balance in the perspective of your own playing experience is totally irrelevant. I play Terran and struggle against Zergs who know how to defend their 3rd properly. Obviously that does not mean Zerg is imbalanced as I know I have a lot of areas to improve in. If everyone started talking about balance outside the Korean scene Protoss would be the most imbalanced race. 1 thing I do agree Terran has a lot more build options vs Zerg. But then again any good Zerg knows how to scout and deflect it relatively easily. If you want to talk about balance why not focus on maps? Like how FS is Terran favoured, easy access to a 3rd, short rush distances between bases, map can be easily split in half without covering a lot of distance. It's 2016, I think you've played this game long enough to know skill beats racial imbalance all day. Dante08, I am discussing balance from the perspective of my overall BW experience which includes many years of playing, discussing, watching and reading about BW in various forms, not just my playing ZvT experience. One thing I certainly disagree with in your post is in relation to zerg's scouting abilities in the ZvT matchup which I covered in my previous posts. Here's what I wrote: Zergs scout initially well with a drone only 33% of the time and have information for not too much time afterwards. 33% of the time Z has overlord on T's exp when he scouted from the first time and this is not too much of a scout as discussed. The last 33% of the time IF overlord doesn't die on the way to the terran's natural, then the scoutting is still poor. and ...many times when Z sees what build terran does judging by the attacking forces already out well in the map usually is too late for Z to react to survive. Perhaps I can add that I don't consider "scouting" the moment when I see how many marines a terran has that are seconds away from the center of the map and then to determine maybe correctly or maybe not whether the T has 4 or 5 barracks. I also wrote a little bit on the map aspect in the last post of page 6 in this thread. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what you think about it. I was thinking of making a long post but I think it'll be never-ending. Let's just hope JD comes back officially soon and starts destroying Terrans left and right. | ||
Shalashaska_123
United States142 Posts
On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. For example I view the muta stack discovery as a turning point in ZvT gameplay. But how do we even describe the Mutastack as an example of airstacking units? I mean is it physically realistical to even imagine, let alone place air units stacked in the air to shoot air and ground targets at the same time with the same success from the same angle every time? It's not a normal thing for sure so the question is: is it some sort of BW "bug" that was decided to be unfixed to have the air units stack when selected with a unit far from the mutas? If it weren't for the Muta stack, what would Zerg do nowadays vs Terran on FS for example?. You can stack air units of any race by grouping them with a distinct unit. Stacking is not something that was just a lucky accident for Mutalisks (a bug), but rather it is a feature of the game that players of all races can exploit. Whether or not it was intended is irrelevant; what is relevant is that it makes the game balanced. Without stacking, the Mutalisk harassment wouldn't be nearly as effective, and this means the Terran player would have more initiative in the mid-game. I think this initiative would translate to more wins over Zerg players in general. On October 26 2016 07:48 LRM)TechnicS wrote: So nowadays nobody's opinion on anything won't count because they are not in pro teams and playing mostly ladder games? For instance the top4 zerg complaints accompanied by FlaSh and Sea admitting that T op vs Z seriously on FS are worthless to you? The pros can whine and complain until they're blue in the face, I still won't believe there's a TvZ imbalance unless I see that Terran is winning significantly more games than Zerg. Since those 4 Terrans you mentioned (Last, Mind, Piano and Mong) have 49 wins collectively against the 49 wins of those 4 Zerg players (Effort, Zero, hero and Larva) this month, I'm disinclined to think T>>Z. Also, according to TLPD on FS for the leagues in 2009-2010, TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%), which further disproves this. EDIT: Also, if the pros claim that TvZ is imbalanced on Fighting Spirit, then why do they continue to play on it? The Zerg players can simply insist on playing another map, but they don't. LRM)TechnicS wrote: The quantitative data provided by LegalLord is very nice done IMO but do not account for much of the in-game stuff that is going on in TvZ. Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks and is playing a bigger amount of the time "in the dark" compared to terran. The factors that influence the T>>Z imbalance perhaps are plenty, maybe even relatively tiny but they probably compound enough to make for the T>>Z imbalance. If it's true that Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks than Terran, then why don't Zerg players lose significantly more games than Terran? How can these "risks" be considered disadvantageous if Terran players can't capitalize on them to win more games? Even though Zerg cannot see what's in the Terran base, he can usually see how many Marines the Terran player has (and thus how many Barracks) by poking in with the Zerglings. There are even tricks to sneak a Zergling in and get a full scout of the Terran base. Once the Mutalisks are out and harassment begins, the Terran's base will be revealed. On October 23 2016 23:57 zaMNal wrote: Because people are talking about TvZ issues.. SCV hp of 60 was one of the bigger baffles for me personally for the longest time. It takes whole 7 mutalisks to 1-shot an scv but probe and drone need just 5 mutalisks. This difference is huge, pretty unfair. Some say it's because SCV doesn't have regeneration like probes or drones. BUT it has direct manual healing(repair) available at any time, which is at least as good as regen, and is especially superb when doing bunker/scv rushes. Bringing scv to 40 hp would make it very fair, especially as it can be repaired to 100% in few seconds. Or 45 hp max (still 5 mutalisk to 1-shot it). 60 is just waay over the top as long as they can be repaired. Repair is not better than auto-regeneration. How often do you see pro Terran players repairing their SCVs during Mutalisk harassment? They're too busy microing the Medic/Marine army and building stuff to have the APM to do that. If an SCV gets injured, it will usually stay injured indefinitely. You're also forgetting that the Mutalisk attack does splash damage, so even though one volley may not kill one SCV, the next volley may be enough to kill 2 SCVs. Also, the SCV attack is not ranged, which means the outcome of a Probe/Drone vs. SCV battle is unclear--only the one with the best micro will win it. My point is that the SCV hp is good as it is. Who knows how a decrease in SCV hit points would affect TvZ? LRM)TechnicS wrote: Thank you also for admitting that T 1base is viable. When Zerg is on any number different than 2 and doing unit different than ling, lurk or muta, maybe hydra and scourge, it is not even viable, let alone you can find it in serious games' archives. Yes, I've seen ZerO win off 1hatch Muta vs decent T but how many times to do u see 1 base Z or 2base hydra play vs T doing miracles in comparison to T1 base builds? Please replay or vod of that 7muta 2 hydra play though. This is complete non-sense of a build for now, nobody has ever done it throughout the years. There are interesting builds that are not standard and could be practiced and polished to achieve good results, but I won't share those. But then again, it's all lurk or muta. Terran has much more options to do well vs Z throughout the whole game. This also accounts for the T>Z imbalance IMO. Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. + Show Spoiler + Game 3 of JD vs FantaSy in the Batoo OSL in April of 2009 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I imagine that in Korea if the map is made by Rose.of.Dream and it looks symmetrical, everyone instantly believes it's balanced and it's great while in reality there's a good chance it's not. A proof of that is how Wind and Cloud had significantly different mining rates for zerg in main bases. If a Zerg spawned top left and played vs another zerg on bottom right, he has to have bo advantage to be even with his opponent. Maybe he was negligent in just this map, but maybe not. So if the most prominent korean mapmaker Rose.of.Dream hasn't put the efforts to find out how to position mineral patches in the main base to not have visible imbalances, what should we expect about the supposed more sophisticated stuff? The case is different abroad though as we have Freaklingzerg who's deeply knowledged, willing to learn more, creative and actually puts a lot of work into his maps. That's a very interesting point. It seems because he was the creator of Fighting Spirit, people automatically trust that his other maps are just as good. Would it be possible for Freakling to present his maps so that they can be considered for future starleagues? It would be a shame if all his hard work went unnoticed. Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6324 Posts
this build is just terrible for any 4 rax +1 or 5 rax +1 and 85% bad vs 3 rax,i can only think this build working vs 2 rax fast tech but even so the number of mutas is not high enough to keep him far from your expos or front attacking you,is recommended in the late game to have always 7-8 mutas so from time to time u kill some scvs from supplies and future CC scvs and why not cleaning mines. Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. idk if you are joking ,but this a totally different situation from what technics was talking about the 7 mutas 2 hydra play. i have tried this build also,and usually terran just bust kill me with brute force,timings are off,no enough mutas no enough lurkers to do real damage,i manage to defend my third base but no way to defend my main. | ||
Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12914 Posts
On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? Kwanro Also don't make me fly back to Sofia and steal your kidneys for all this balance whine Dimitar, I swear I'll do it | ||
Shalashaska_123
United States142 Posts
On October 26 2016 16:34 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. idk if you are joking ,but this a totally different situation from what technics was talking about the 7 mutas 2 hydra play. i have tried this build also,and usually terran just bust kill me with brute force,timings are off,no enough mutas no enough lurkers to do real damage,i manage to defend my third base but no way to defend my main. I was joking. I've never seen this 7 Muta/2 Hydra play in a pro game before (and for good reason I suppose), but this 5 Muta/5 Hydra play was the closest thing I could think of to that. I'm sorry you didn't find it funny... The tone I had in my head when I was writing that bolded part must not have been the same tone that you read it in. | ||
aedeph
104 Posts
On October 26 2016 00:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Show nested quote + On October 25 2016 23:11 aedeph wrote: Btw, probability of 88.2% player making 14-0 in 14 games is 0.882 ^ 14 ~ 17%. That's 1 to 5, not the greatest chances. 17% chance to win 14-0 some of the top zergs to ever play the game is not great chances? While they show that event can actually happen, I wouldn't bet until 5-1 pot odds. But also, it's Flash we are talking about, that's why he is called "God" and he is unanimously considered the greatest ever. Besides, Bisu has already accomplished challenge by making it 16-0 vs Larva in September. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/514536-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-september So, I guess, you should also start crying on ZvB imba. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 26 2016 20:37 aedeph wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2016 00:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On October 25 2016 23:11 aedeph wrote: Btw, probability of 88.2% player making 14-0 in 14 games is 0.882 ^ 14 ~ 17%. That's 1 to 5, not the greatest chances. 17% chance to win 14-0 some of the top zergs to ever play the game is not great chances? While they show that event can actually happen, I wouldn't bet until 5-1 pot odds. But also, it's Flash we are talking about, that's why he is called "God" and he is unanimously considered the greatest ever. Besides, Bisu has already accomplished challenge by making it 16-0 vs Larva in September. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/514536-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-september So, I guess, you should also start crying on ZvB imba. I am not crying. I also think that Z>P. Bisu did it vs Larva but will he be able to do it vs EffOrt, HerO and ZerO as well? Doubt so... While FlaSh, on the other hand, might have significantly better chances at this. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 26 2016 14:05 Shalashaska_123 wrote: Hello again, guys. Show nested quote + On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. For example I view the muta stack discovery as a turning point in ZvT gameplay. But how do we even describe the Mutastack as an example of airstacking units? I mean is it physically realistical to even imagine, let alone place air units stacked in the air to shoot air and ground targets at the same time with the same success from the same angle every time? It's not a normal thing for sure so the question is: is it some sort of BW "bug" that was decided to be unfixed to have the air units stack when selected with a unit far from the mutas? If it weren't for the Muta stack, what would Zerg do nowadays vs Terran on FS for example?. You can stack air units of any race by grouping them with a distinct unit. Stacking is not something that was just a lucky accident for Mutalisks (a bug), but rather it is a feature of the game that players of all races can exploit. Whether or not it was intended is irrelevant; what is relevant is that it makes the game balanced. Without stacking, the Mutalisk harassment wouldn't be nearly as effective, and this means the Terran player would have more initiative in the mid-game. I think this initiative would translate to more wins over Zerg players in general. Show nested quote + On October 26 2016 07:48 LRM)TechnicS wrote: So nowadays nobody's opinion on anything won't count because they are not in pro teams and playing mostly ladder games? For instance the top4 zerg complaints accompanied by FlaSh and Sea admitting that T op vs Z seriously on FS are worthless to you? The pros can whine and complain until they're blue in the face, I still won't believe there's a TvZ imbalance unless I see that Terran is winning significantly more games than Zerg. Since those 4 Terrans you mentioned (Last, Mind, Piano and Mong) have 49 wins collectively against the 49 wins of those 4 Zerg players (Effort, Zero, hero and Larva) this month, I'm disinclined to think T>>Z. Also, according to TLPD on FS for the leagues in 2009-2010, TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%), which further disproves this. EDIT: Also, if the pros claim that TvZ is imbalanced on Fighting Spirit, then why do they continue to play on it? The Zerg players can simply insist on playing another map, but they don't. Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: The quantitative data provided by LegalLord is very nice done IMO but do not account for much of the in-game stuff that is going on in TvZ. Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks and is playing a bigger amount of the time "in the dark" compared to terran. The factors that influence the T>>Z imbalance perhaps are plenty, maybe even relatively tiny but they probably compound enough to make for the T>>Z imbalance. If it's true that Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks than Terran, then why don't Zerg players lose significantly more games than Terran? How can these "risks" be considered disadvantageous if Terran players can't capitalize on them to win more games? Even though Zerg cannot see what's in the Terran base, he can usually see how many Marines the Terran player has (and thus how many Barracks) by poking in with the Zerglings. There are even tricks to sneak a Zergling in and get a full scout of the Terran base. Once the Mutalisks are out and harassment begins, the Terran's base will be revealed. Show nested quote + On October 23 2016 23:57 zaMNal wrote: Because people are talking about TvZ issues.. SCV hp of 60 was one of the bigger baffles for me personally for the longest time. It takes whole 7 mutalisks to 1-shot an scv but probe and drone need just 5 mutalisks. This difference is huge, pretty unfair. Some say it's because SCV doesn't have regeneration like probes or drones. BUT it has direct manual healing(repair) available at any time, which is at least as good as regen, and is especially superb when doing bunker/scv rushes. Bringing scv to 40 hp would make it very fair, especially as it can be repaired to 100% in few seconds. Or 45 hp max (still 5 mutalisk to 1-shot it). 60 is just waay over the top as long as they can be repaired. Repair is not better than auto-regeneration. How often do you see pro Terran players repairing their SCVs during Mutalisk harassment? They're too busy microing the Medic/Marine army and building stuff to have the APM to do that. If an SCV gets injured, it will usually stay injured indefinitely. You're also forgetting that the Mutalisk attack does splash damage, so even though one volley may not kill one SCV, the next volley may be enough to kill 2 SCVs. Also, the SCV attack is not ranged, which means the outcome of a Probe/Drone vs. SCV battle is unclear--only the one with the best micro will win it. My point is that the SCV hp is good as it is. Who knows how a decrease in SCV hit points would affect TvZ? Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: Thank you also for admitting that T 1base is viable. When Zerg is on any number different than 2 and doing unit different than ling, lurk or muta, maybe hydra and scourge, it is not even viable, let alone you can find it in serious games' archives. Yes, I've seen ZerO win off 1hatch Muta vs decent T but how many times to do u see 1 base Z or 2base hydra play vs T doing miracles in comparison to T1 base builds? Please replay or vod of that 7muta 2 hydra play though. This is complete non-sense of a build for now, nobody has ever done it throughout the years. There are interesting builds that are not standard and could be practiced and polished to achieve good results, but I won't share those. But then again, it's all lurk or muta. Terran has much more options to do well vs Z throughout the whole game. This also accounts for the T>Z imbalance IMO. Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. + Show Spoiler + Game 3 of JD vs FantaSy in the Batoo OSL in April of 2009 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffw7hAs_B1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcJL80AqHaw Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: I imagine that in Korea if the map is made by Rose.of.Dream and it looks symmetrical, everyone instantly believes it's balanced and it's great while in reality there's a good chance it's not. A proof of that is how Wind and Cloud had significantly different mining rates for zerg in main bases. If a Zerg spawned top left and played vs another zerg on bottom right, he has to have bo advantage to be even with his opponent. Maybe he was negligent in just this map, but maybe not. So if the most prominent korean mapmaker Rose.of.Dream hasn't put the efforts to find out how to position mineral patches in the main base to not have visible imbalances, what should we expect about the supposed more sophisticated stuff? The case is different abroad though as we have Freaklingzerg who's deeply knowledged, willing to learn more, creative and actually puts a lot of work into his maps. That's a very interesting point. It seems because he was the creator of Fighting Spirit, people automatically trust that his other maps are just as good. Would it be possible for Freakling to present his maps so that they can be considered for future starleagues? It would be a shame if all his hard work went unnoticed. Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 Yes, all race can airstack, but the whole ZvT matchup revolves around the mutastack. No other matchup race is as influenced by that IMO. Also the numbers that DarkNetHunter pointed to (LegalLord's article) suggest that it's T>Z (54%). As just about everyone seemingly sees that it's T>Z. If you see absolutely no T>Z imbalance then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On October 26 2016 17:44 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Show nested quote + On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? Kwanro Also don't make me fly back to Sofia and steal your kidneys for all this balance whine Dimitar, I swear I'll do it No balance whine, sir. It's T>Z. I've played enough through the pain that match up is. I can discuss it here, it's relevant. As for the stealing of body parts - when I get that money from that guy, I will pay you to not steal my kidneys, but to host an awesome, hopefully BW:HD, tournament. Deal? | ||
Rainalcar
Croatia321 Posts
On October 26 2016 07:48 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Zerg has to has just about enough to survive, if he doesn't - he is being taken out of the game early, if he overdefends - he is taken out of the game later. This is true. ZvT is really an edge of a knife for Zerg. Terran can bunker rush and if it fails continue as if nothing happened, he can sunken break and if Zerg is 3 seconds late it is over (and Z can almost never see the number of rax), if the Zerg misses a dropship (also very difficult to spot on route in midgame) it could be curtains as well. While the Zerg has no realistic way to kill Terran fast. Heck, not even to scout him (unlike PvZ). Most Zerg wins lately are unhampered economy and 4 gas Ultraling on Terrans 4th and 5th. In comparison to PvZ, it is also very difficult for P to kill Zerg early (2 gate, which is risky, or a misread by Z of a +1speed attack on the 3rd when awaiting Starport, could kind of qualify) - but - it is also difficult for Z to kill P early, save Hydra busts (the only case for scouting is problematic for P) or rare ling break-ins. All in all, I've always had a feeling that even the best Ps can easily fall to decent Zs or, a little less easily, but still it's not uncommon, to decent Ts, best Zs can very easily fall to decent Ts and can fall to decent Ps but best Terrans cannot fall easily to anything and can recover from situations where a Z or P would already be out of his booth. In the long run, helps a lot to win tournaments and become the greatest ever. | ||
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