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On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has.
On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio.
Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount?
I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker?
What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me.
Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal?
I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. This is pretty much the same as your previous post, you say for T 1 base builds are good for sniping, then say Z cannot win consistently vs T with ling/hydra busts etc? What a comparison. So T nowadays wins consistently with 1 base builds? And all this time I thought I have to expand to not get rolled midgame. There are plenty of ways to open up for zerg except for the standard 3 hatch muta, be it fake muta, fake lurker, lurker drop, ultra rush, guardian rush and what not. And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. And I don't think that only having the limited arsenal of ling muta/lurker (or hydra vs mech) to defend vs T can be seen as a disadvantage, because either one requires vastly different T responses as it does for Z when he faces a mech opening.
if you think this is the same as the previous post, read again then
T 1 base builds are MUCH more viable than Z hydra/ling busts ZvT. ZvT hydraling busts is almost laughable to even spell it out. T 1 base builds have been legit for many years and still are. Nobody plays them nowadays on FS because going for expo is easier and stronger, but they are still viable.
So the plenty of ways for z to open up vs T go from 2/3hatch lurk/muta to 2/3hatch fake lurk/fake muta. And the super expensive lurk drop that almost nobody does? Dude, you defend lurk drops by placing nicely supply depots in your main, lol. 2 lurks can't even kill an scv with the first shot. I understand the pain for protoss users that must react quick, but with SCVs?
answer this question: do you honestly expect zerg to do any significant damage to you until the 10th minute of the game with a unit that is different than a lurker or a mutalisk?
then answer this: can you not determine relatively quick if z is on 2 or 3 hatch a good amount of the games you play? (this question is almost rhetorical) is scan not enough for you to determine whether you are fake mutaed or fake lurkered a good amount of the time? I understand if zergs made 80% of the time den before spire everytime no matter if they went for lurkers or spire, but that's not the case in reality.
On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote:
And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building.
Is this a joke? You want the comsat scan to give you information what unit is coming out of the larva to determine whether you are being guardian or ultra rushed? From which only the guardian rush sounds somewhat viable and have seen some players do it. Why do you even include guardians and ultras in early game variations is beyond my mind... These are hive tech units, it takes plenty of time to survive until then... Do you count hive tech units as early game?
edit: do you really not understand how 1base T has realistical chances to win a good amount of the time vs the zerg openings and to transition nicely into a more standard play smoothly afterwards? While if you play zerg from 1 base or go for 2/3base hydraling you end up being beaten severely a good amount of the time?
edit2: don't you realise that 1base AND 2base T has MUCH more "fake" variations to do than z? when 2base- when you are z you have an ovie observing the exp at best? before z gets mutas, how do you know whether T is going for 2rax mnm bust? or 3rax? or 4rax? or 5rax? or speed vultures? or mnm + valk bust?
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On October 22 2016 02:22 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 01:08 noname_ wrote:On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39. As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker. I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc. On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol. Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays... T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user) How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T? Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker. The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds. Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies). Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good. Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done). Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them. Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable.
You must have missed the times where JD was bashing Terrans left and right when he was active. Flash practiced a whole lot before he started streaming that's why you see him winning games easily, it's not like he came back and instantly started beating Zergs. When JD gets back to around 80-90% of his skill trust me he's going to wreck Terrans.
Also it sounds like you've been around long enough to know that in BW the players skill matters most not race imbalance. Maps do play a significant part but we have seen players overcome that. And we're talking about God's TvZ itself you can't base racial imbalance off that.
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On October 22 2016 11:23 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote:On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has.
On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio.
Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount?
I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker?
What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me.
Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal?
I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T. This is pretty much the same as your previous post, you say for T 1 base builds are good for sniping, then say Z cannot win consistently vs T with ling/hydra busts etc? What a comparison. So T nowadays wins consistently with 1 base builds? And all this time I thought I have to expand to not get rolled midgame. There are plenty of ways to open up for zerg except for the standard 3 hatch muta, be it fake muta, fake lurker, lurker drop, ultra rush, guardian rush and what not. And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. And I don't think that only having the limited arsenal of ling muta/lurker (or hydra vs mech) to defend vs T can be seen as a disadvantage, because either one requires vastly different T responses as it does for Z when he faces a mech opening. if you think this is the same as the previous post, read again then T 1 base builds are MUCH more viable than Z hydra/ling busts ZvT. ZvT hydraling busts is almost laughable to even spell it out. T 1 base builds have been legit for many years and still are. Nobody plays them nowadays on FS because going for expo is easier and stronger, but they are still viable. So the plenty of ways for z to open up vs T go from 2/3hatch lurk/muta to 2/3hatch fake lurk/fake muta. And the super expensive lurk drop that almost nobody does? Dude, you defend lurk drops by placing nicely supply depots in your main, lol. 2 lurks can't even kill an scv with the first shot. I understand the pain for protoss users that must react quick, but with SCVs? answer this question: do you honestly expect zerg to do any significant damage to you until the 10th minute of the game with a unit that is different than a lurker or a mutalisk? No, simply because Zerg cannot build anything else until Hive? Just the fact that T can build more different units in midgame does not make it unfair for Z. Hydra muta is good vs mech, muta lurker is good vs bio.
then answer this: can you not determine relatively quick if z is on 2 or 3 hatch a good amount of the games you play? (this question is almost rhetorical) is scan not enough for you to determine whether you are fake mutaed or fake lurkered a good amount of the time? I understand if zergs made 80% of the time den before spire everytime no matter if they went for lurkers or spire, but that's not the case in reality.
Actually I don't know why Zergs don't always build both hydra den and spire, because that way T always has to prepare for both options. I would gladly invest those extra 150min/50gas for the hydra den for the chance T only scouts one and prepares for the wrong attack. And if he scouted both and doesn't skip anything, then T invested as much in defense than Z in both tech buildings.
Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 10:36 Cryoc wrote:
And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. Is this a joke? You want the comsat scan to give you information what unit is coming out of the larva to determine whether you are being guardian or ultra rushed? From which only the guardian rush sounds somewhat viable and have seen some players do it. Why do you even include guardians and ultras in early game variations is beyond my mind... These are hive tech units, it takes plenty of time to survive until then... Do you count hive tech units as early game? edit: do you really not understand how 1base T has realistical chances to win a good amount of the time vs the zerg openings and to transition nicely into a more standard play smoothly afterwards? While if you play zerg from 1 base or go for 2/3base hydraling you end up being beaten severely a good amount of the time? edit2: don't you realise that 1base AND 2base T has MUCH more "fake" variations to do than z? when 2base- when you are z you have an ovie observing the exp at best? before z gets mutas, how do you know whether T is going for 2rax mnm bust? or 3rax? or 4rax? or 5rax? or speed vultures? or mnm + valk bust? I never said I wanted scan to give that information, I just pointed out, that scan is not a maphack, and if a fake build is done correctly by Z, there is no way to know what Z goes for unless you scan at the exact moment when his units spawn. And I included ultrarush because it is the same as fake lurker or muta. Z can just build 9 drones instead of units saving his gas and rush to hive defending with sunkens and lings until ultras are out and then overwhelm T. Z cannot scout the amount of barracks usually before mutas are out but you can see from the attacking forces if he goes for a pre muta bust or not. The other tech builds you mention, they are gambles from T to counter something he doesn't know if it will come, so it is the same for both sides. The only thing I might agree on, is that Z allins decide the game faster than T 1 base openings and because of that longer period of time there are more decisions to be made so a better player has a better chance to win.
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Just gonna be fair and input that if you see a lot of larva when scanning spire/den they are really garbage or going muta, no? Sometimes the information is between the lines, right?
On the grand scale of things though, I do think that FS has a large part to play in apparent balance between T and Z but ultimately the apparent IMbalance between Z and T in the top 10 vs top 4 is from the numbers themselves - expanding it to top 10 vs top 10 would even out the % a bit for everyone below the top Terrans. Those top Terrans imo are simply better players at the moment.
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On October 22 2016 16:07 Jealous wrote: Just gonna be fair and input that if you see a lot of larva when scanning spire/den they are really garbage or going muta, no? Sometimes the information is between the lines, right? Most probably. If the zerg is really decent, he can hatch lurkers beside hatcheries, and lings in others eggs, and if scan happens before muta pop timing to see just the 9 eggs, it can be a good suprise, altough this has to be pulled of masterfully, because spawning larvas may give away the fact that it isn`t mutas. I agrree with Cryoc on that zergs should/could invest in both buildings. I`d buy 1-2 muta if I`d go lurk/ling, and I`d buy 1-2 hydras, if I`d go mutas, just for the sake of unpredictability.
On October 22 2016 16:07 Jealous wrote: On the grand scale of things though, I do think that FS has a large part to play in apparent balance between T and Z but ultimately the apparent IMbalance between Z and T in the top 10 vs top 4 is from the numbers themselves - expanding it to top 10 vs top 10 would even out the % a bit for everyone below the top Terrans. Those top Terrans imo are simply better players at the moment. I think exactly the same.
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Flash 30-4
I wonder Zerger who had lucky when he won the God!
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On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote:
No, simply because Zerg cannot build anything else until Hive? Just the fact that T can build more different units in midgame does not make it unfair for Z. Hydra muta is good vs mech, muta lurker is good vs bio.
Z can harass and do damage to T until 10th minute of the game with: 5 units - zerglings, mutalisks and lurkers mainly, maybe hydralisks and scourges
While terran can harass and do damage to Z until 10th minute of the game FREQUENTLY with: 2 buildings (bunker and ebay) 1 cc unit scv with 3 options - 1. attacking, 2. repairing attacking or defending buildings (bunkers and turrets) and 3. maybe walling off zerg with depots or buildings to stop drones from reaching the natural exp to defend a marine rush 3 barracks units - marines, medics, firebats 3 factory units - vultures, tanks and goliaths (T can do quite well with vultures and goliaths vs whatever off 2base vs whatever the z opening!) 3 starport units - wraiths, valkyries and vessels
On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote: Actually I don't know why Zergs don't always build both hydra den and spire, because that way T always has to prepare for both options. I would gladly invest those extra 150min/50gas for the hydra den for the chance T only scouts one and prepares for the wrong attack. And if he scouted both and doesn't skip anything, then T invested as much in defense than Z in both tech buildings.
Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources and time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it.
On October 22 2016 13:10 Cryoc wrote: Z can just build 9 drones instead of units saving his gas and rush to hive defending with sunkens and lings until ultras are out and then overwhelm T. Z cannot scout the amount of barracks usually before mutas are out but you can see from the attacking forces if he goes for a pre muta bust or not. The other tech builds you mention, they are gambles from T to counter something he doesn't know if it will come, so it is the same for both sides.
The additional 9 drones that Zerg hatched are not worth it because terran will see that z has no army, get good macro because not harrassed and scout the map and see that Z is only doing 2base ultra. Sorry, Cryoc, but almost nobody ever does 2base ultra rush with the intention to even snipe some decent terran IMHO. Also the drones will mine not too many additional minerals so it's really more of a waste of resources. Also drones are hatched the quickest, the chance that Z hatches these drones and terrans scans exactly when being made to not see it's drones is very low. Hard to pull it off if playing zerg IMO.
edit: After the warning, I edited some parts to not sound too rude when presenting my reasoning. Sorry to Cryoc if he felt offended here.
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Guys, get the bigger picture.
T>>Z for so many reasons and factors, whether relatively tiny or not, that compound throughout the game process and makes for the T>>Z imbalance.
IMO it's T>>Z>P ? T. But I certainly feel better for protosses vs zerg than for zergs vs terrans.
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Yea i also think that:
T>Z Z>P? Maybe yes but not really as much as T>Z
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On October 22 2016 18:12 noname_ wrote:I agrree with Cryoc on that zergs should/could invest in both buildings. I`d buy 1-2 muta if I`d go lurk/ling, and I`d buy 1-2 hydras, if I`d go mutas, just for the sake of unpredictability.
... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability
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You can't waste gas in ZvT in early game.
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i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs.
flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg.
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On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs.
flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg.
Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats.
This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva.
I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe.
What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z.
edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans?
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On October 22 2016 22:39 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 22:25 Tanzklaue wrote: i wonder how people can argue T>>Z while msot top terrans are significantly below 50% int he match up vs top zergs.
flash seems to jsut have the match up figured out to a degree never seen before. if zerg was to be buffed or terran to be nerfed jsut so flash gets a 50% winrate i'd argue that no other terran even stands a chance vs zerg. Excluding FlaSh we have 49 vs 49 stats. This is Last, Mind, Piano and Mong vs Effort, Zero, hero and Larva. I maybe don't pay attention but Mind, Mong and sSak aren't playing too seriously as of recently? Maybe I don't see them stream too much. Also sSak was playing somewhat seemingly clumsy in some of the games he played vs 424, imagine what the results would be if he practiced more. Same goes for Mind and Mong I believe. What the results show, at least to me, is that Sea is currently struggling vs Z. edit: And this is a 1 month sample. What would you say about the fact that the most dominating tournament pro players for the longest periods of the time were Terrans? i don't think comments like "they seem to not play seriously really" are of much value. maybe the zergs aren't playing seriously either, who knows?
it is right that historically speaking terran is the msot domiannt race, but it also is the race with the msot pro players and zerg historically isn't too far off. if anything, protoss is the race most struggling, as they had the least success in almost every single relevant big league from what i have gathered.
what the stats are saying is that flash is way better at tvz than any other terran to the point where no zerg is even close to threatening him in the amtch up currently. we also see that any terran that isn't among the absolute top is struggling somewhat in the match up. so i'd actually argue that the match up is pretty balanced except at the level of basically flawless play, where we see that terran/flash dominates.
EDIT: also whenever i turn into flash's stream, he jsut offraces or palys FFA or does random vs random on BGH, so he doesn't paly serious msot of the time either. what does this say about the other terrans then if they can't keep p with flash who is jsut enjoying himself?
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Japan11285 Posts
The only concrete things I can conclude right now strictly with the stats written in the OP are that FlaSh and Last have been dominating so far. And that Mind and Sea are in the area of "they suck" and "they're mediocre".
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Zerg would be unanimously manliest race, but for endless moanlng and weeping of zerg players'.
PS: as far as i understand, technics means that every zerg player is GOSU and on Flash's level of dedication, talent and skills, but stupid imba makes statistics even. That's quite nice.
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Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources AND time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Maybe at their level, but not necessarily on foreigner level. Also pros do many-many things by habit, not by actually thinking themselves our being good strategists, whatever. I`ve seen effort and zero not using the return to cargo command in zvz, that was suprising to say the least. It`s not that huge investmenet at all, considering you basically buy each of these buildings otherwise just a few minutes away from each other, so you lose a few minutes of working at most with one drone, that`s absolutely worth it, as I see...
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On October 22 2016 23:33 noname_ wrote:Show nested quote +Because the investment is relatively big - it is done very rarely by zerg users. You spent resources AND time because you have to wait for terran's scan to build your units while you could have built them earlier. Maybe it's a mistake, but if Jaedong, EffOrt, Hero don't do it 70% of the time, my guess is that it's not worth it. Maybe at their level, but not necessarily on foreigner level. Also pros do many-many things by habit, not by actually thinking themselves our being good strategists, whatever. I`ve seen effort and zero not using the return to cargo command in zvz, that was suprising to say the least. It`s not that huge investmenet at all, considering you basically buy each of these buildings otherwise just a few minutes away from each other, so you lose a few minutes of working at most with one drone, that`s absolutely worth it, as I see...
I will quote myself once again: ... and you would end up being beaten severely by a good T almost every game cuz 7 mutas barely kill an scv and 2 hydras are well just 2 hydras. and late 7 lurkers, caused by the spire investment and the sunks u will need to survive the mnms, will barely get you out of your base and maybe kill the initial bunker T lays... just for the sake of unpredictability
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On October 22 2016 23:09 c3rberUs wrote: The only concrete things I can conclude right now strictly with the stats written in the OP are that FlaSh and Last have been dominating so far. And that Mind and Sea are in the area of "they suck" and "they're mediocre".
Mind does not suck lol. 8-10 is one game away from 50%-50%. The sample is not too good. If Mind is 6-0 vs Larva while 2-10 vs Hero, Zero, Effort then he most probably sucks.
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