On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine.
Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39.
As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker.
I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol.
Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays...
T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user)
How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T?
Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker.
The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds.
Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies).
Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good.
Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main
Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc
Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done).
Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them.
Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39.
As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker.
I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol.
Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays...
T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user)
How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T?
Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker.
The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds.
Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies).
Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good.
Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main
Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc
Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done).
Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them.
Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable.
Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39.
As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker.
I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol.
Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays...
T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user)
How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T?
Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker.
The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds.
Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies).
Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good.
Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main
Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc
Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done).
Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them.
Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable.
Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch.
I mean, he's actually right. The problem is he's just whining about the current imbalance, which is a bit annoying even if right. Once maps change, t>>>z as he put it, will shift back to just t>z as it always does and the stats among the top will become more balanced.
On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine.
Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too.
one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.
On October 22 2016 00:19 Peeano wrote: Talking about what could be considered 'the game of the year' without posting the VOD should be a bannable offense.
On October 21 2016 11:55 classicyellow83 wrote: I thought this was interesting because all of these 4 zergs complain about Terran IMBA on their stream constantly, but reality is they just can't beat Flash and Alphago. They beat everyone else fine.
Yeah this is incredible. Flash is dominating. I'm curious who his four lose were too.
one of each. 3-1 vs Effort, 8-1 vs Zero, 11-1 vs Larva, and 8-1 vs Hero. lol. The game effort won was epic. One of the best game of 2016. Might be the best game.
Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has.
On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio.
Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount?
I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker?
What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me.
Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal?
I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote:T OP vs zerg historically is a known fact, nowadays included. Most tournament trophies and most dominating players for the longest period of time were T.. It's not even funny, if you calculate these same numbers for the top4 terrans vs top4 zergs it's 69:39.
As for the first part, I didn`t looked it up, maybe it`s true. As years past by it was t>>z, z>>p and p>t. Zergs struggled just as much in tvz as p`s in zvp, while t`s did okay in tvp. I wouldn`t call it op, I`d call it a very slight natural advantage, every race has it against another. But I noticed that zergs imrpoved a lot, I mean a lot. Even on iccup, which suprised me, tvz it isn`t as easy as it used to be (or maybe it has more to do with the thinning of the player pool). For the second part: can you compare their skill levels while taking into account the differences of their races? I doubt. Also, you made this statement like they (the top4 from each race) owe exactly the same level of skill (which I also doubt), and the comparison shows that T>Z. The beauty of this game is that it doesn`t matter with what race you play and against against what race, the player who plays better wins.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If you check SC:BW patches Balance changes history you will clearly notice the effort to make terran significantly stronger while zerg significantly weaker.
I did, and they don`t. Each race has got it`s fair share of changes... The thing is BW is one of the least patched games hanging around today (I mean come on, after so many years the valkyrie is still not working properly, lots of stop bugs still in the game, etc.), the map designs, the game and the players(!) made this whole thing balanced to the point that the players accepted it. What if rines would have 6 base damage, or more hp, what if 1 zergling would hatch from one egg, what is ultras would have 500 hp, etc., etc.
On October 21 2016 19:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What these numbers show that the top terran can do the 14-0 challenge for real (and for giggles) vs any of the top4 zergs and expect to win a good amount of the time lol.
Maybe it has more to do with that he is the best player on Earth right now and far less with race he plays...
T >> Z (significant advantage) Z > P (normal advantage) P ? T (can't really say, i'm z user)
How do you explain that top 4 zergs currently that are probably top 10 zergs to ever play the game, can barely win one game vs whoever it is (even Flash)? Does this sound normal to you? When FlaSh was returning he was bashing players left and right and when Jaedong supposedly returned with 424, he was losing a ton of games vs T?
Also SC:BW patches balance changes history CLEARLY show that terran is made stronger while zerg significantly weaker while protoss also weaker.
The reasons and factors for which T >>> Z are more than the ones I am stating. Terrans can choose from so many combinations of strategies to play from 1 base AND from 2 baes while in reality Z is limited to 2base play with 2hatch or 3 hatch, making either muta or lurk with the occasional ling bust while rushes are absolutely crushed by most T builds.
Zerg's scout limits zerg's knowledge of Terran's as the drone cant scout forever (30% of the time) or the drone doesnt get to the main at all, while the 60HP scv can circle around for ages to see whether it's muta or lurk (which is already a pretty limited number of viable strategies).
Terran's almost surely know what z is doing (scv scout or scan). Zergs don't know as good.
Terrans can play proxy 2rax, proxy1rax, proxy super quick 1fac (10th limit), 1base 2barracks, 1base 3 barrack play, 1base 2barrack tank push, 1base 2 barrack dropship play, 1base 1 fac, 1base 2fac, 1base 3fac, 1base 1port with drop of vultures or marines/medics, 1base 2ports, 1base 3 ports, proxy fac lifted into main
Terrans can also play 2base 2barrack bust, 2base 3 barrack play, 2base 4barracks, 2base 5barracks, 2base fac into mnm and vessels, 2base fac into mech play, 2base mnm into mnm+mech play, 2base mnm + valk, 14cc
Zergs can : 4pool (super rarely played), 9pool/ovepool (in practice rarely played), 12hatch 2hatch muta or lurk, 12hatch 3hatch muta or lurk, 3hatch before pool (in practice almost never done).
Viable terran army AND buildings for attack vs Z that frequently used: marine, firebat, medic, vulture, tank, goliath, vessel, dropship, wraith, valkyrie, bunker (which alone is super imba). Imagine the combinations between them.
Viable zerg army vs T: lings, lurks, mutas, scourge. Maybe hydras when terran is mech. The amount of combinations is laughable.
Do you really think anyone takes your comment seriously when you are so obviously biased? You list like every possible build for T no matter how bad it is, and on other hand only listing a few Z builds with comments how they suck and you can only play 12 hatch.
I mean, he's actually right. The problem is he's just whining about the current imbalance, which is a bit annoying even if right. Once maps change, t>>>z as he put it, will shift back to just t>z as it always does and the stats among the top will become more balanced.
We are talking "ground" maps only here. Imagine if maps were actually changed to include a good amount of air maps. Z is performing significantly worse on these.
I just don't know how I didn't realize this earlier. Seemingly Blizzard updated SC:BW balance changes until actual and serious work on WC3 was about to be put. The last update with major changes for the Balance were in 2001. They were making T stronger, while P and Z weaker until then. Then they stopped updating BW balance as the focus was to create WC3. The next updates, as you can check, are fixed bugs. At least that that's how my reasoning goes.
On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Cryoc, these are all viable openings either for legitimately sniping somebody significantly better than you or just whoever or just for playing and have decent chances to beat Z. I remember the days that T 1 base mnm play was the standard and terrans were still doing pretty good. These are openings/early game stuff, not late game. The combination of units that terrans can attack and defend relatively early with are just about any unit from any building T has.
On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? I mean after the year of 2000? On a relatively modern looking map? Have you ever even tried such? Because I have practiced in the past such builds with little to no success. Or go for quick 3rd with 3/4 hatches for muta/ling/queens with ensnare/broodling? There's this build 2 hatch muta into +1 carapace for lings and relatively quick ultras with a 3rd expo but if this is the first time you understand about this build, how often do you think it is actually used? I've seen 424 go for 2-3 hatch hydra busts and completely fails cuz he was blindly thinking Shinee/Sharp was going for 2base fac play where in reality Shinee/Sharp were playing bio.
Last time I used hydra/lurk was perhaps back 10 years ago when I lost 24 hydras and 10 lurkers to XellOs' 20 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel without doing any visible damage to him. I am not too ashamed of that but another question to you: have you ever seen in the past 6-7 years any legit pro Z go super frequently hydra/lurk vs pro Terrans and win a decent amount?
I mean, do you honestly expect a zerg to do any damage to you until 10th minute of the game with a unit that is not a mutalisk or a lurker?
What about Z? Why did I not involve Hive units? Before I get hive if T is decent, he is at 100 limit knocking on my door with his full arsenal of 24 marines, 5 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel. That doesn't sound as early game to me.
Queens? LOL. Besides that one game of Jaedong on Chupung Ryeong that he used ensnare and sometimes used to fight mech with a rather questionable effect in super late game, why should I include these in Z's early to mid game arsenal?
I don't even wanna talk about late game lol. Or TvZ on 2 player maps. Or if Z decides he has enough stuff and to fight a major battle without a swarm vs decent T.
This is pretty much the same as your previous post, you say for T 1 base builds are good for sniping, then say Z cannot win consistently vs T with ling/hydra busts etc? What a comparison. So T nowadays wins consistently with 1 base builds? And all this time I thought I have to expand to not get rolled midgame.
There are plenty of ways to open up for zerg except for the standard 3 hatch muta, be it fake muta, fake lurker, lurker drop, ultra rush, guardian rush and what not. And don't come with T has scan, because scan cannot look into your eggs to see what you are actually building. And I don't think that only having the limited arsenal of ling muta/lurker (or hydra vs mech) to defend vs T can be seen as a disadvantage, because either one requires vastly different T responses as it does for Z when he faces a mech opening.