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So I've been trying to play a bit in excitement for the remaster and I can't seem to win a single game. I know I'm not good, but no amount of reading the strategy section or build orders on liquipedia or watching VoDs seems to help at all. And when you play differently but still never win, its hard to actually tell if you're even making progress or if you're going in the wrong direction. I'm really kind of at my wits end.
I've been using Terran, and I seem to just get completely dominated by both zerg and toss, and the only two wins I got this week were from a Terran mirror.
That said, is Terran actually viable if you only have around 100 apm? I know they're amazing if you're a pro, but should bad players just not use them? Are there any builds that are good for someone at my low skill level? I'm not looking to be a pro, but I'd like to get at least one win per week, and have it actually not be in the mirror match.
Any advice would be helpful, I don't want to quit, but I'm not really having any fun at the moment.
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Maybe try picking 1 strategy for each match up and practice that until you have it down. Changing your style will just add even more to your learning curve. Once you are comfortable with the strategy and build order, it's easier to focus on macro and other factors that you need to work on. And yes, terran is probably harder to do on a lower level. But all you need is practice and best if it's against equal opponents. Match making should help you with that next week.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I don't know what that strategy should even be since I haven't actually had any luck with anything. What build(s) SHOULD I focus on as a 100 apm Terran player?
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First of all, don't be discouraged by bumping into superior opponents. That is pretty inevitable for a new player. When remastered is out, you'll be able to play with people at your skill level and progress from there. It is not a question of apm. Having 100 now is fine. It will increase naturally as you progress. Don't worry about which race is better under specific circumstances either; simply play the race(s) you like the most.
When asking for advice, it's a good idea (read: mandatory) to provide a replay. Else, we have nowhere to begin.
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I can train you on Europe server, if you want to play terran on medium level. But the question is, are you prepared to raise your apm to at least 160 apm with proper training, or you have some disorders or don't want to make enough effort, which prevents you from raising it up? If so, I can train you in playing protoss on medium-higher level (yes, you can be good with 100 apm using protoss). I am available usually around 20-24 CET in regular week days, and during some weekends from 10-24
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I might be able to do that Radley, I don't have any disorders other than just being old now lol
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Ok, I can train you now. Add me on Europe server, nickname: KimLeeRadleYong
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Getting some coaching will help alot, also remember to watch and study some streams as well and then emulate the openings you watched and then deviate from those openings depending on what your opponent is doing, and how you feel to accommodate to your own style. GL HF and keep fighting, keep ya head up bro
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On August 14 2017 03:53 radley wrote: or you have some disorders?
Lol wtf? where did that come from?
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It's a reasonable question no? He's just asking whether he has any physical disabilities that would prevent him from going above 100 apm.
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Yes, it was standard question, which goal I explained in next statement. You can't be good terran with 100 apm, so either you have to work on it, or switch to protoss. You can play on C+/B- iccup level with 130-140 apm (mca64 did), but it's usually based on macro games with heavy camping (which mca64 likes so he is fine with it). And I know only one relatively good Polish zerg (GameZZZ), who played with around same apm as mca64. But he is phenomenon for me. And there are bunch of protosses who can be real threat and have 100-120 apm.
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On August 14 2017 07:38 B-royal wrote: It's a reasonable question no? He's just asking whether he has any physical disabilities that would prevent him from going above 100 apm.
I guess it's reasonable, I would personally not have thought of that question but it makes sense, I thought it was somewhat funny.
I definitely agree on the apm topic though. I play Terran and I'd also say that TvZ is usually more apm intensive than TvP, especially if you go bio. I end up hitting like 250 in TvZ (although I spam so that's inflated) during intense moments but only like 220 in TvP. And I don't play TvT often, instead opting for PvT where I can get away with like 170-180.
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Radley is probably right, you CAN'T win with terran with low apm, I think I'm done with the game, I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond, but I'm not having fun playing. TvP when you're not a pro is the dumbest, most frustrating thing I've seen in gaming.
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On August 18 2017 06:25 Paramisery wrote: Radley is probably right, you CAN'T win with terran with low apm, I think I'm done with the game, I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond, but I'm not having fun playing. TvP when you're not a pro is the dumbest, most frustrating thing I've seen in gaming. It takes a bit of time to grasp, but you'll quickly realize how paper Protoss units are when they all get annihilated in a single tank volley and start to appreciate it.
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Did you do some brutal training sessions with radley or why are you so disheartened?
Based on my memories when I started playing on ICCUP, I think 130apm is a big milestone for Terrans, where you start to be able to hold your own vs other more experienced players and the most fun parts of BW begin.
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Paramisery are you there? Which realm are you on and what's your account name?
I will record a video of me beating you in TvT with 40 APM and post it on youtube.
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there have been some excellent foreigner terrans in the past with low APM. it's true that having a higher hand speed can only help, especially if you're playing strategies that require greater multitasking, but even a baseline of 190 is good enough to play well.
and that's an APM that almost anyone can achieve.
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On August 18 2017 06:39 Cryoc wrote: Did you do some brutal training sessions with radley or why are you so disheartened?
Based on my memories when I started playing on ICCUP, I think 130apm is a big milestone for Terrans, where you start to be able to hold your own vs other more experienced players and the most fun parts of BW begin.
No, he's never sent message to me on battlenet.
I could teach you how to play Paramisery, but it's your choice whether you want to play or not. To be honest, TvP is the easiest to play from all terran matchups on that level of APM. You just needed to know how to play it. Maybe it wouldn't be most exciting style of play, but could lead to some wins.
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Lazare what does beating me in TvT with low apm have to do with me asking for help in TvP? That's like saying I'm having difficulty playing baseball and you chime in to say that you'll beat me in basketball. If you want me to say you're a better player than me, that's fine, I acknowledged that I'm not good from the start. Do you need to feel good about yourself by trying to publicly shame someone who admits they suck and is frustrated?
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and Radley, we can play later if you're still up for it, I need a break. Its bad enough that I lose to all protoss, but I also seem to almost only get paired with them.
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On August 18 2017 07:33 Paramisery wrote: Lazare what does beating me in TvT with low apm have to do with me asking for help in TvP? That's like saying I'm having difficulty playing baseball and you chime in to say that you'll beat me in basketball. If you want me to say you're a better player than me, that's fine, I acknowledged that I'm not good from the start. Do you need to feel good about yourself by trying to publicly shame someone who admits they suck and is frustrated? No, I wanted to prove that focusing on APM is meaningless at your level. Disable the APM counter because it's not what you should be focusing on.
Download the mine laying micro map Skyhigh_Vulture_Micro.scm. Place it in C:\Users\username\Documents\Starcraft\Maps\Download so you can load it in the game. Practice it until you're confident with your mine micro. It's a neat map that helps you practice killing goons that don't have an observer. Against goons you want to place them as close as possible, whereas against zealots you'll want to place them further away. Here's a video preview of the map (he's doing it incorrectly because the mines are too far, but you'll get the idea).
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On August 18 2017 07:33 Paramisery wrote: Lazare what does beating me in TvT with low apm have to do with me asking for help in TvP? That's like saying I'm having difficulty playing baseball and you chime in to say that you'll beat me in basketball. If you want me to say you're a better player than me, that's fine, I acknowledged that I'm not good from the start. Do you need to feel good about yourself by trying to publicly shame someone who admits they suck and is frustrated? If Terran doesnt work out for you the other races are easier to learn. At an early level Terran is by far the hardest race to play anyway unforgiving in all aspects even vs worse players. Though TvZ is equally as hard from a zerg perspective i'd say.
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Hello Paramisery,
All right you said that you are a beginner in using terran race . How about providing us some replays of your matchup TvX, it could be ranging from TvP,TvZ,TvT . I wouldn't be so demoralized if i were you, the amount of cheese and stupid stuff I died to protoss are countless . Lots of all ins protoss can do to you is staggering as a newbie terran you have to adapt and know what to do if situations like this happen. As mention earlier , I am sure if you provide us some demos and replays we could help take a look at your game and conclude where you are standing and what kind of a player you are and which areas you should improve . B/O wise , strategy wise, macro and micro wise and etc.
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Terran is the hardest race to play in both BW and SC2 due to having literally no units that you can a-move, but there are great rewords for playing Terran when you have high APM.
I think it's natural for a Terran player to lose a lot in the beginning.
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Wanted to chime in to say that at low levels, TvP is really frustrating, I have been playing for 7-8 years as a Terran with an average of 260 eapm and my TvP win rate is: hovering at about 32-35%.
The amount of stuff a P can throw at you in the first 8 minutes of the game is amazing, you will die to:
reavers, dt and dt drops, zealot rushes, the proxying of reavers, dts and proxying extra gateways so that when you think they are doing 1 gate FE, 15 goons come at you.
Then there is gas steal, manner pylons and building pylons where your factory add on is supposed to be.
Having all this done to me countless of times will make you a smarter player, so now, when I scout: - I know to count how many pylons a protoss has in their base (should be equal to the number of supplies you have), and this will rule out a proxy - whether or not their cybernetics core is spinning (rules out any fast tech)
- Also I have learned what to do when your gas gets stolen or how to build my buildings so that it can only leak marines but not zealots.
Doing all of the above doesn't need intense apm, just needs an ability to absorb and process information. I mean, if you do move of the above right, you won't have to worry about DTs/reavers being dropped or snuck into your base.
Once you block all that, and go into mid-late game, that's when you should worry about apm :D
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On August 18 2017 16:25 [Fin]Vittu wrote: Wanted to chime in to say that at low levels, TvP is really frustrating, I have been playing for 7-8 years as a Terran with an average of 260 eapm and my TvP win rate is: hovering at about 32-35%.
The amount of stuff a P can throw at you in the first 8 minutes of the game is amazing, you will die to:
reavers, dt and dt drops, zealot rushes, the proxying of reavers, dts and proxying extra gateways so that when you think they are doing 1 gate FE, 15 goons come at you.
Then there is gas steal, manner pylons and building pylons where your factory add on is supposed to be.
Having all this done to me countless of times will make you a smarter player, so now, when I scout: - I know to count how many pylons a protoss has in their base (should be equal to the number of supplies you have), and this will rule out a proxy - whether or not their cybernetics core is spinning (rules out any fast tech)
- Also I have learned what to do when your gas gets stolen or how to build my buildings so that it can only leak marines but not zealots.
Doing all of the above doesn't need intense apm, just needs an ability to absorb and process information. I mean, if you do move of the above right, you won't have to worry about DTs/reavers being dropped or snuck into your base.
Once you block all that, and go into mid-late game, that's when you should worry about apm :D damn are you korean pro?
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I queue up units sometimes. I might have macroed really poorly for a while when controlling something and then I sometimes just queue up my raxes or facts.
The problem is that if you queue 5 vultures after battle and then you reach his base with the push and a surprise carrier greets you then you probably want to cancel some and add Goliaths so I recommend scanning a bit before doing so.
I give you this advice so you can win more right now :-) And after you did it you have more time for adding long term solutions such as more factories, bases, upgrades etc.
I also recommend going into single player on all the maps and send one scv to each base and use the cheats for money and build time and practice base building. Or you can do it in the map editor. A pretty base is often important so macro is more smooth and you can get back in to fight mutas and recalled units.
Terran is very hard now compared to when I played in 2008. All protoss do nice walls against vultures and both zerg and terran use spell casters in a much better way.
I think I am at 12-9 on EU ladder right now and my apm is very low. About 100 I think
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On August 18 2017 16:25 [Fin]Vittu wrote: Wanted to chime in to say that at low levels, TvP is really frustrating, I have been playing for 7-8 years as a Terran with an average of 260 eapm and my TvP win rate is: hovering at about 32-35%.
260 apm or 160 eapm? No way you have an average of 260 eapm.
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So Lazare, you're going to show me that apm doesn't mean much by beating me and posting it on youtube to publicly shame me for losing to you? That'll definitely make me not only want to continue playing the game, but also really want to jump right in and be a part of a community that does stuff like that...
Anyway, thanks for the encouragement from everyone else, I'll save a few replays if I'm not completely embarassed by my play. Where should I go to upload them? Again, I played a ton when the game launched, but I really haven't touched it since maybe 2002 so I may as well call myself new again.
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Fight on !
You'll likely need more than 100 apm as a Terran player, but there certainly are adjustments to style that will work with lower requirements, and are fine to use as a beginner starting out.
Honestly, I'd suggest 1 base pressure builds for you to start with. You'd get to play with 1 base worth of production and unit amount/control, and that's an okay way to start improving your fundamentals. Will also get you some wins against opponents of your skill level, and be in general fun to play, too.
After that you can transition to various FE openings, focusing on non-stop scv production, handling various types of early aggression, etc - it'll be more fun when you already have some fundamentals developed.
Starting out with repetition of solid macro builds & learning the adjustments and proper reactions to whatever BS that can get thrown at you - that's certainly a shortcut to success, but it isn't for everyone who's picking up a new game and isn't sure if they want to commit or not. Try various things, do what you enjoy, find ways to do what you enjoy better, and expand your play style from that. I bet that's how most of us got to where we are now.
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Paramisery is still be willing to help also if you would like. I'm Hivolt on east and I'm on every evening. We played a game and then you didn't want to watch replay with me when I offered to help . I think maybe you were frustrated.
When playing this game it is like an instrument. You can't just pick it up and play ( well not great), but when you do learn it is very satisfying to win because you know what you are accomplishing.
Good luck in your endeavor and I will take time to help any way I can in the evenings eastern time.
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Soulforged thanks, one base pressure is probably at least a start for me, and Hivolt, yes I was frustrated and just wanted to stop playing after our game (kinda like most times when I play protoss anymore). I'm 0-2 vs. toss again today.
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I'm helping out a beginner friend as well, and the method that we've been trying out that works for him is setting targets based on the in-game timer.
Why? For beginners, obsessing over APM and super tight build orders are actually a distraction. You just refine it as you go on. Just open every game with the standard 8 supply 10 rax 11 refinery and move on from there. simple.
So first, make sure in the options turn your in-game timer on.
Then try this. The basic idea is that you move out with a small army around 5 minutes, with the goal of trying to end the game by 6-7 minutes.
Examples:
vs. zerg: move out at 5 minutes where you have 8 marines 2 firebats 2 medics and stimpack researched. vs. protoss/terran: move out at 5 minutes with 8 marines and 1 tank. follow up with vultures with mines
So what this does: 1. It puts you in the mindset that you have to be out on the map, putting pressure on the enemy, even ending the game early. 2. It forces you to reverse engineer things and refine a build order. To get a small army by 5 minutes, what do I need to build and how much do I need? 3. Eventually it teaches you macro. Your mindset should be prepared for mid/late game always. So when you move out, make sure to expand, macro, and such.
Hope this helps!
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On August 18 2017 23:46 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 16:25 [Fin]Vittu wrote: Wanted to chime in to say that at low levels, TvP is really frustrating, I have been playing for 7-8 years as a Terran with an average of 260 eapm and my TvP win rate is: hovering at about 32-35%.
260 apm or 160 eapm? No way you have an average of 260 eapm.
woops, you're right. meant to say 160 eapm. and 260 is just the spammy one.
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Haha I wanted to start a similar thread and was happy to find this one but after reading everything it is kind frightening tbh :D I am in EU as well btw.
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On August 18 2017 15:22 DemigodcelpH wrote: Terran is the hardest race to play in both BW and SC2 due to having literally no units that you can a-move, but there are great rewords for playing Terran when you have high APM.
I think it's natural for a Terran player to lose a lot in the beginning.
no units that you can a-move
that's funny, marines and medics do absolutely fine against sunkens when attack moved
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On August 19 2017 08:32 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 15:22 DemigodcelpH wrote: Terran is the hardest race to play in both BW and SC2 due to having literally no units that you can a-move, but there are great rewords for playing Terran when you have high APM.
I think it's natural for a Terran player to lose a lot in the beginning. that's funny, marines and medics do absolutely fine against sunkens when attack moved
Only in large enough number, for example in standard tvz you rely on the tanks to bust the sunkens.
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TLADT24917 Posts
OP, my advice to you is to play what's fun. Do more 1 base plays. Heck, go bio for a while against Protoss.
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"So I've been trying to play a bit in excitement for the remaster and I can't seem to win a single game"
as a long time terran user i can only advice you to switch to toss race. Dont thank me.
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Take it easy man. I feel your pain. Check your PM. Also, 3v3 can be pretty damn fun.
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On August 19 2017 08:32 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 15:22 DemigodcelpH wrote: Terran is the hardest race to play in both BW and SC2 due to having literally no units that you can a-move, but there are great rewords for playing Terran when you have high APM.
I think it's natural for a Terran player to lose a lot in the beginning. that's funny, marines and medics do absolutely fine against sunkens when attack moved
Technically you have to press T first so it's not counted as a move
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On August 19 2017 07:38 gTank wrote: Haha I wanted to start a similar thread and was happy to find this one but after reading everything it is kind frightening tbh :D I am in EU as well btw.
EU server also, and also a fresh starter with a lot of problems. Find me on B.net and lets try to get better in this damn game Cvitak46 #2440.
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Against P, if you are rather low level T, I would advise try the aggressive openings and get wins with them. You'll get a sense of the strength of T units and the tactics that make you win or lose advantage. 2 fact openings for example can smash a P early game, if he doesn't know and tries a 1 gate or fast nexus build and isn't that good, close to your level, I bet you will win games that way soon enough. It's not like T is weak at low level, just harder to control, and that will punish you even more in the late game especially if the opponent is better, but in the early if you get a good amount of the right units its possible to end the game right there and make your opponents have more difficulty to micro than you.
I've known good players in the past who could do a lot with low apm, barely above 100. A lot of things done right in the macro and micro, just not bothering to try and play much faster than that. And they'd get wins against good players all right. Rare but exists^^ (iirc a few pros a long time ago P users were playing in the 160 apm?). In any case you certainly don't need anything near pro levels to do lots of good things with T, I've had plenty of great games vs T when I was just decent P myself, it doesn't feel imbalanced at the lower levels. Seriously the difference in control difficulty exists, but its overstated sometimes such as P being easy vs T or whatever, even in PvZ, if you are same level or little better than the Z including at low or very low levels you will win a lot of games. There are plenty of ways in any matchups to "steal" a win with smtg kinda cheesy too, be it the most cheesy version such as building first pylon and gates in the middle of the map ; T can do this too even vs P^^ I've lost games like that. You can just make it hard for them to win by outproducing you because you're attacking that, then they have to micro and decide how to block it and it's tough for them :O
and losing to 2fact or ~100pop timings @10min on 2 bases is I think common at low/decent level for P, also at higher levels a P can lose to that
finally if you don't like T that much, you could just pick a different race for a while. T is the most mechanical playstyle. When I was beginner, I wanted to main P but I switched to Z for a while, then back to P. If you have big trouble vs P, chances are playing a little P will help you see their strength/weaknesses better, losing vs Ts.
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