|
On August 25 2017 10:46 traxamillion wrote: 1 base play is cheese. Watch any pro game ZvP they will always either forge fast expand or 1 gate fast expand. It's meta. 1 base is gimmicky cheese.
Tbh I'd advise playing zerg and if not at least Terran. Toss is for scrubs
No offense, but even someone at my Level knows how much horsecrap that post is.
Might want to think twice in the future
|
|
Show me any pro games on FS or CB where toss 1 bases (or even other maps where they aren't just 2gate ai)
Maybe my 2ND paragraph you can disagree with but it's pretty much true. Toss has highest food per unit so it's easier to control their armies not to mention the way they build buildings. So much of what protoss has to do is just gimmicky; hiding cannons vs 11hatch, zealot ai, zealot harass, sair harass, DTs, storm drops. All so they can get the death ball up to not get crushed. Not even saying it's good Toss is the weakest race it's just cheesy/easy. At a mediocre skill you will get the highest MMR with Toss but get to a higher level and you will just get continually smashed by good zergs.
|
On August 25 2017 11:31 traxamillion wrote: What's untrue about it? Just because cheese is not meta doesn't mean not meta is cheese.
|
I'd appreciate if you wouldn't derail this thread. If you, for whatever reason, feel the urge to argue with someone, feel free to PM me.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2017 10:46 traxamillion wrote: 1 base play is cheese. Watch any pro game ZvP they will always either forge fast expand or 1 gate fast expand. It's meta. 1 base is gimmicky cheese.
This is completely and utterly wrong. All progamers use 1 base builds here and there. Source? Go watch all progamers on a regular basis. You can start from BisuOf course this doesn't mean they use 1 base builds more than 10-15% of the time, or that it is not weaker than fast expanding, but what you said is far from the truth. Also, since it was mentioned, Free beat Soulkey on CB in SSL with one base reaver, also Best beat Soulkey on Outsider(ASL3) with goon/reaver push. Can't think of more games right now but i think there was more goon/reaver on Outsider Sorry for derailing
|
On August 25 2017 12:38 ortseam wrote: Sorry for derailing
I meant Traxamillion. You just posted an objective Statement, because those games DID happen While he was clearly just trying to cause Trouble, so don't worry. And thanks!
|
Yeah, the statement is massive bullshit and probably a lot of whining in it. One base PvZ makes sense on many matches, such as Outsider for example. I wouldn't see it as cheese, especially not if you can make it work with a follow up. However, using one base on the overplayed maps like FS isn't really advisable to learn the game from scratch.
|
1 base in PvZ is not cheesy ofc (cheesy would be proxy stuff), some maps are more or less favorable to 1base strats, but they are playable on all. It's just, you generally don't want the Z to expect it (or they have a good chance to gain an advantage from that). For example, on a map like Python, 1base is potentially a little better than on FS, because a) there is a chance your opponent is close air distance b) it is quite a bit more difficult to defend nat on a early 2base strat c) you can potentially make use of island earlier with 1 base start
I think one important perk of 1base starts in PvZ is to punish Z who assume that you are going for 2 base and make a greedy start or also a aggressive start designed to break a nat wall, so it makes sense to mix it in your play for that reason already. They are interesting to play, I recommend to try, just don't forget to win with other builds because the follow ups are rather technical and you could lose a lot.
|
I am with GeckoXp on this one: Step one: stop theory crafting and start gaming. Step two: watch your own games (especially the ones you lose) and find out what are your weak points, what are your strong points, and then what you want to work on to improve. Step three: if you get frustrated because you keep dieing to the same thing, look for replays/vods of how other protoss beat it. Step four: Practice that yourself.
At this point you will probably realize that the main reason you loose a game is bad scouting/getting fully scouted yourself.
Finally, go with the mentality: I will lose a lot, but I will learn from each loss. If you go with a mentality of "I just want to win once" or something along those lines.... you're done.
|
On August 25 2017 23:33 iloveav wrote: I am with GeckoXp on this one: Step one: stop theory crafting and start gaming. Step two: watch your own games (especially the ones you lose) and find out what are your weak points, what are your strong points, and then what you want to work on to improve. Step three: if you get frustrated because you keep dieing to the same thing, look for replays/vods of how other protoss beat it. Step four: Practice that yourself.
At this point you will probably realize that the main reason you loose a game is bad scouting/getting fully scouted yourself.
Finally, go with the mentality: I will lose a lot, but I will learn from each loss. If you go with a mentality of "I just want to win once" or something along those lines.... you're done.
Yeah, I mentioned that earlier, Gecko hit the nail with the theorycrafting part. I do that in a lot of games, even those where I'm already playing on an above average Level. I always want to have the "perfect Setup" and sometimes spend days without playing until I come up with a theoretical solution to the issue I'm working on.
I've already started doing your other advice though, in one of my other Posts in this thread I listed my weaknesses (at least the ones I'm Aware of), to also visualize what I Need to work at, and now it's just spamming games while paying Attention to the Things I listed.
Something I haven't quite yet done was what you mentioned in step 3, maybe gonna do that later, just go through some VoDs and see how they handle the situations that I struggle with.
Thanks again for your help too
|
On August 25 2017 08:58 SartPls wrote:@Jealous: Had a busy day, so still didn't get around to watch your links. FeelsBadMan. It's not forgotten though! Also hey, Keep the discussion going guys, I'd be happy to read more what everyone thinks about varying build orders Quick question too: You mentioned a thread where I can upload replays and top Players critizise them, did I get that right? And if yes, would you mind sharing a link? --- Last but not least: Is there any legit way I can beat a Terran army in an open fight without 600 apm rofl? It seems like there's just way too many Things to do at the same time... Minedragging with Zealots, Goon Micro, Stasis the backline the Tanks, Shuttle Micro to drop HTs in the back and Storm, etc. etc. Here's a post I made answering a question similar to your first in the Simple Questions, SImple Answers thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/220903-simple-questions-simple-answers?page=338#6749
As for the latter question, you definitely don't need 600 APM. You did list the "perfect" engagement there, with all of its moving parts, but you have to consider that the order of operations means that you can practice it even on the trees on FS and that it will become very natural for you over time. Let's look at the clicks, at least how I do it:
Preparation: Make sure your groups make sense. For example, I generally have 1+2 being Zealots, 3+4 being Dragoons + HT/Arb (if you keep them in your own group, they get EMP'd), 5+6 for additional units and Shuttle.
1a2a3a4a5a - Perpendicular to the Terran line of attack. If you have to engage a Terran, you want to be coming in from a perpendicular angle so that 1. you get a concave naturally, 2. you don't get broadsided by the entire Tank line. Make sure your shuttle (6) is in a good place strategically (usually flying in from a different angle than your army).
1m2m* - Zealots run in through the minefield 3a4a5a - Dragoons follow shortly behind 4 - click on Arbiter icon - stasis 5 - click on HT - storm Remember, you can "preprogram" these to be where the Terran army is. 6m - Shuttle starts flying towards the engagement 11 - Jump to Zealots - split to tanks I used to use the wireframes but it made it kinda complicated and the Zealots would trip on one another I recommend using drag+drop, get as many as you can 6u + click on self - Unloads Zealot/HT I click + storm
* - M is move, but I am not telling you to click m. I am saying right-click to move here
This covers the majority of the opening of a successful battle imo, and this is all stuff you can practice if you just make a quick UMS, or hell, as I said, you can think of the doodads on FS as Siege Tank clusters and practice that way. You said "micro Dragoons" and yea, that often comes after this for me, and it is just drag+dropping to unclump. I think the most important part of PvT engagements is 1. not taking bad ones (when they are sieged up and spread out), 2. knowing when to back off (when you lost all of your Zealots and they still have a respectable army left).
TL;DR: There is certainly a lot of things you can potentially do in an engagement, but if you follow a uniform pattern for them, and use distance to "preprogram" certain actions, it will look like you have/need 600 apm but in reality it's just good timing and maybe 100-200 APM in a short burst.
EDIT: Just saw you talking about VODs. Recommend this resource:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1okfcEMbdxb9NxdcduNTipdcK27qq3070vYFXNgdnUPo/edit#gid=381685913
Click on "BIsu" tab on the bottom. The second column, where it says "korhal" are where the YouTube links are. To the right of this column you will see build orders that were used in that video. This will help you pinpoint which VODs to watch! For example, to the above query I would recommend #49 vs. Rush (from the recommended list at the bottom).
|
I feel like a broken record, thanking everyone in every post I write, but hey x) Just know that I really appreciate all your detailled help!
The 600 apm was an overexaggaration of Course, but I see your Point. I honestly think one of my biggest Problems in an open PvT fight is closely tied to one of my macro Problem, which is: not making enough production Buildings/Units. Even after taking a third base I'm often still at 3 Gates because I want to do so much other stuff, like tech, attack, defend attacks, etc. So once I actually have an army Count that can rival the Terrans, Things might not look as dire anymore with the Micro. Also another Thing I noticed is that I still have Zealots ATTACK the tanks, instead of MOVING them right infront the tanks, and this way they often stop and try to defuse mines instead of dragging them -.-
About the VoDs though, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wanted to ask if there is a thread etc. where I can post MY vods and have other People critizise them?
|
On August 26 2017 01:50 SartPls wrote: I feel like a broken record, thanking everyone in every post I write, but hey x) Just know that I really appreciate all your detailled help!
The 600 apm was an overexaggaration of Course, but I see your Point. I honestly think one of my biggest Problems in an open PvT fight is closely tied to one of my macro Problem, which is: not making enough production Buildings/Units. Even after taking a third base I'm often still at 3 Gates because I want to do so much other stuff, like tech, attack, defend attacks, etc. So once I actually have an army Count that can rival the Terrans, Things might not look as dire anymore with the Micro. Also another Thing I noticed is that I still have Zealots ATTACK the tanks, instead of MOVING them right infront the tanks, and this way they often stop and try to defuse mines instead of dragging them -.-
About the VoDs though, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wanted to ask if there is a thread etc. where I can post MY vods and have other People critizise them?
If you are attack-clicking ON the Tanks, then they should drag the mines anyway. You must be a-moving on the way there instead of regular move.
As far as macro, having 3 Gates on 3 base can actually be normal for certain scenarios. In others it is a disaster. The key is having an Observer over the Terran's Factories to see what his Factory count is. Your Gateway could should be ~1.5x his Factory count in order to have comparable macro. This means you sometimes have to delay your 3rd to not die, or until your Observer sees his Factory count.
As for posting your own VODs, I provided a link to explain how to handle this at the top of the previous post. Replays are usually recommended though, because people can move around the camera freely and speedup/slowdown easy, etc. Later in my post, I was referring to your response to Gecko, where I think it was implied that you would be looking at pro VODs to learn how to handle situations? If not, I apologize xD
|
oooh, now I get it with the link, my bad!
And yeah, I meant replays, not VoDs, sorry
|
If you guys would like to have a look at some replays to provide some additional help, I made a new thread for that: www.teamliquid.net
Would love to hear some of your opinions!
Edit: I tried to follow Jealous' advice from the other thread and analyzed the mistakes that I could spot for myself first, and listed them
|
|
On August 26 2017 01:50 SartPls wrote:
The 600 apm was an overexaggaration of Course, but I see your Point. I honestly think one of my biggest Problems in an open PvT fight is closely tied to one of my macro Problem, which is: not making enough production Buildings/Units. Even after taking a third base I'm often still at 3 Gates because I want to do so much other stuff, like tech, attack, defend attacks, etc. So once I actually have an army Count that can rival the Terrans, Things might not look as dire anymore with the Micro.
What I did to solve the gate problem was that: Every game I tried to have 1 spare probe, Probe-the-Builder. I was having it around my gates and at the end of every macro round I would use it to build one more gateway. So it would look this way: I'm on 5 gates. So I clickD clickD clickD clickD clickD and after hiring 5 dragoons I build a gateway. By the next macro round I'm already on 6 gates and after having hired 6 goons I'm building a 7th gate... The positioning of your pylons matters a lot, so organize them nicely, so that you don't have to worry about building placement later.. Also with low APM try to macro more than micro. Like, 1a2a3a and back to your base, building and hiring units. Or if it's late game and you have hts/arbs then throw storms/stasises, 1a2a3a and back to the gateways. Try not to look at your units fighting for too long, or not at all. Minimap is very helpful
|
Choose Terran. PvZ is a write off
User was temp banned for this post.
|
|
|
|
|