The Averatech-Intel Classic finals are finally coming up this Sunday and it is one of the most anticipated matches of the year because of the finalists: Jaedong and Flash.
As we all know, Flash and Jaedong are the top 2 Kespa ranked players. With Flash’s win percentage at 66.8% and Jaedong’s at 67.5%, they will finally meet at the Averatec-Intel Classic finals to prove who the best Starcraft Player truly is. The Korean fans have nicknamed this final as the “LissangDaechup" which means “The Two Mr.Lee’s big match” in Korean.
Now, while Flash is a little bit better at head-to-head matches, Jaedong can still boast about how he had won against Flash at a best-of-five, which is going to be the same format as the Averatec-Intel Classic finals. It's gonna be a close call and hard to say who will win the game.
At the beginning of this year, Flash proved to be an amazing talent by winning the GOMTV Star Invitational and received prize money of $20,000. If he wins Sunday’s match, he will receive yet another $70,000 from GOMTV as his prize. His performance at GOMTV has always been top-notch so now the question is: Can Flash win this GOMTV Starcraft Classic Final and bring home the prize again? Or will Jaedong repossess his pride from Flash and reclaim his #1 Ranking position?
Flash stated, “I was unsatisfied in the first half of this year. However, I just got a great chance now because of the GOMTV finals. I’m also excited that I can have matches against Jaedong who I really wanted to meet at the finals and we can show an even performance” to which Jaedong replied, “I will win the GOMTV finals against Flash, who is one of best, to overcome my latest failures to win in the Proleague, and to maintain Kespa’s #1 rank as the player with the most-wins".
This is definitely a match you can't miss! The Averatech-Intel Classic finals will be live-broadcasted at KST (GMT+9) 18:00, Sunday, August 10 by our very own Nick "Tasteless" Plott. You can also enjoy the show at Sindorim Technomart for free. GOMTV will also live-broadcast for a day on Saturday, Aug. 9, a day before the finals, with highlights of the Averatech-Intel Classic 2008 season 1, and special VODs of Flash & Jaedong.
In addition, for those of you who want to try imitating Tasteless or discover your underlying talent in casting, GOMTV is offering clean sources of the previous matches. Mind you, this is still in production so it might be buggy, but give it a shot.
On August 07 2008 20:51 lilsusie wrote: GOMTV will also live-broadcast for a day on Saturday, Aug. 9, a day before the finals, with highlights of the Averatech-Intel Classic 2008 season 1, and special VODs of Flash & Jaedong.
This is awesome !!
And the matchup is the best of all 3 big league. Talk about the best way to start a league to have both #1 and #2 player fighting in the Final !!!
On August 08 2008 02:16 bubblegumbo wrote: Two young legends in a desperate fight for their only title this season. I just hope the loser doesn't end up in a slump after this epic fight.
I really pray this turns out as the super awesome match everyone is expecting. Otherwise it will be just another letdown like the other finals, atlest scorewise were. Dont get me wrong July´s allin strats were awesome but having somthing more than just another 3 - 0 would be more exciting.
best of luck to both player :D i hope flash wins (lol i am such a t fan) but for some reason i really want flash to come out of the wcg korea so i can see him stump some p lol, seriously tho if flash gets to play in the grand final i can only pray for the p players out there cos i know there r lots lol
I just don't know who to root for, ever since savior's reign I've wanted a terran star back on top of the scene, but jaedong at his best is just amazing!
I guess I just miss the boxer and oov of the good ol days :p
On August 07 2008 20:51 lilsusie wrote: The Korean fans have nicknamed this final as the “LissangDaechup" which means “The Two Mr.Lee’s big match” in Korean.
LissangDaechup sounds awesome, the translation isn't so catchy :p
This is gonna be awesome. As a terran player of course I'm going to be biased and pick Flash. I have however liked Jaedong for longer and I wont be disappointed whichever the outcome. But I also hope Flash takes it so we can have a player to talk about in the future and how he dominated GOMTV back in the day lol.
Poll: Flash or Jaedong ftw? (): Jaedong (): Flash (): Screw them MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Both players got beat by ForGG, so confidence is probably quite similar right now. Their lifetime matchup percentages are about the same. And they both are in semi slumps. This is probably the most even Bo5 in a long time, and should produce some epic games. But in the end, i hope Flash wins.
Yes, both lost to ForGG. However, Jaedong has the advantage of actually training WITH ForGG, something Flash obviously doesn't have. I dont think we can overlook this advantage seeing as how good forgg is with research (he owes jaedong after embaressing him at MSL), and with him as a training partner I feel Jaedong has a huge edge going in.
On August 08 2008 10:36 On_Slaught wrote: Yes, both lost to ForGG. However, Jaedong has the advantage of actually training WITH ForGG, something Flash obviously doesn't have. I dont think we can overlook this advantage seeing as how good forgg is with research (he owes jaedong after embaressing him at MSL), and with him as a training partner I feel Jaedong has a huge edge going in.
According to Plexa's latest blog post, the maps will be ZvT imbalanced and Flash will pwn. Jaedong's ZvT has been lacking lately and it's probably because of the maps. =D
On August 10 2008 03:45 Narrator wrote: According to Plexa's latest blog post, the maps will be ZvT imbalanced and Flash will pwn. Jaedong's ZvT has been lacking lately and it's probably because of the maps. =D
I don't care as long as Jaedong loses.
gotta love this.
if jaedong wins it's a testimony to his great skill overcoming zvt imbalanced maps.
if jaedong loses it's excusable because of imabalanced maps.
On August 10 2008 03:45 Narrator wrote: According to Plexa's latest blog post, the maps will be ZvT imbalanced and Flash will pwn. Jaedong's ZvT has been lacking lately and it's probably because of the maps. =D
I don't care as long as Jaedong loses.
gotta love this.
if jaedong wins it's a testimony to his great skill overcoming zvt imbalanced maps.
if jaedong loses it's excusable because of imabalanced maps.
talk about a win/win
thats a odd way to phrase it
its not that "win/win" if you just state plainly that the maps are terran favored and thus jaedong will have a tougher time than flash to win. So of course its cool if the underdog wins and not as exciting if he loses, but that doest mean Flash wont get plenty of credit (and $70,000!) if he won.
I've got my bet placed on Flash, but i had to force myself not clicking Jaedong - all my spidersenses are telling me he'll take it but my lefthalf just can't see how.. !
Watched Flashes recent TvZ games and he's looking strong as ever.
Will be tuning in for sure to catch this though, just wish GOM would find a co-caster for Tasteless. Say what you will about DJ Wheat and his knowledge about the game, but ever time he talked, Tasteless had a chance to gather his thoughts and make some observations.
On August 10 2008 12:11 Civil wrote: how can i watch this? im noobie
use the daum playe search in the tl search thing for daum u should see guide which has link to install and what buttons to click since the player is in korean
On August 10 2008 12:11 Civil wrote: how can i watch this? im noobie
use the daum playe search in the tl search thing for daum u should see guide which has link to install and what buttons to click since the player is in korean
On August 10 2008 12:11 Civil wrote: how can i watch this? im noobie
use the daum playe search in the tl search thing for daum u should see guide which has link to install and what buttons to click since the player is in korean
dude this is GOM finals, so you have to use GOM player. Daum won't have it I think...
On August 10 2008 12:11 Civil wrote: how can i watch this? im noobie
use the daum playe search in the tl search thing for daum u should see guide which has link to install and what buttons to click since the player is in korean
uh isn't this going to be on the gom player? seeing as how it's the gomtv tournament...
I think you can dl and find the button for the stream at gomtv.net.
On August 10 2008 03:45 Narrator wrote: According to Plexa's latest blog post, the maps will be ZvT imbalanced and Flash will pwn. Jaedong's ZvT has been lacking lately and it's probably because of the maps. =D
I don't care as long as Jaedong loses.
gotta love this.
if jaedong wins it's a testimony to his great skill overcoming zvt imbalanced maps.
if jaedong loses it's excusable because of imabalanced maps.
talk about a win/win
thats a odd way to phrase it
its not that "win/win" if you just state plainly that the maps are terran favored and thus jaedong will have a tougher time than flash to win. So of course its cool if the underdog wins and not as exciting if he loses, but that doest mean Flash wont get plenty of credit (and $70,000!) if he won.
I don't really know how unbalanced the maps are in Flash's favor.
Bluestorm is played twice and is pretty Z>T (not completely, but it definitely favors Z)
Then Katrina which, unlike the way it's being made out to be, is not T>Z at all. It's definitely T=Z. The only reason it's being made to be "unbalanced" is because Flash>Jaedong consistently on this map... and that means the fault is on Jaedong, not the map.
Othello is definitely T>Z but, like Bluestorm, it's not totally in one races favor. Jaedong can overcome if he is a champion
Colosseum is the only map that is very T>Z and unbalanced.
Overall I'd say if Jaedong loses the maps were in his favor moreso than Flash. Playing Jaedong on Bluestorm twice is going to be hard as hell for Flash if Jaedong plays like he used to.
Blue Storm winrates include both versions of Blue Storm so it's a little misleading I think. Terrans have been a lot more successful against Zerg on Blue Storm this season (7-6, 53.8%) than they were last season (18-38, 32.1%). Not saying it's a completely balanced map, but going by this season's results, the maps favor Flash (with Katrina SE being the only 50% TvZ map in the pool).
On August 10 2008 03:45 Narrator wrote: According to Plexa's latest blog post, the maps will be ZvT imbalanced and Flash will pwn. Jaedong's ZvT has been lacking lately and it's probably because of the maps. =D
I don't care as long as Jaedong loses.
gotta love this.
if jaedong wins it's a testimony to his great skill overcoming zvt imbalanced maps.
if jaedong loses it's excusable because of imabalanced maps.
talk about a win/win
thats a odd way to phrase it
its not that "win/win" if you just state plainly that the maps are terran favored and thus jaedong will have a tougher time than flash to win. So of course its cool if the underdog wins and not as exciting if he loses, but that doest mean Flash wont get plenty of credit (and $70,000!) if he won.
I don't really know how unbalanced the maps are in Flash's favor.
Bluestorm is played twice and is pretty Z>T (not completely, but it definitely favors Z)
Then Katrina which, unlike the way it's being made out to be, is not T>Z at all. It's definitely T=Z. The only reason it's being made to be "unbalanced" is because Flash>Jaedong consistently on this map... and that means the fault is on Jaedong, not the map.
Othello is definitely T>Z but, like Bluestorm, it's not totally in one races favor. Jaedong can overcome if he is a champion
Colosseum is the only map that is very T>Z and unbalanced.
Overall I'd say if Jaedong loses the maps were in his favor moreso than Flash. Playing Jaedong on Bluestorm twice is going to be hard as hell for Flash if Jaedong plays like he used to.
that doesnt really make sense so there are 2 balanced maps and 1 map that somewhat favors terran and 1 map that dominantly favors terran
how does that mean the maps are in jaedong's favor?
On August 10 2008 03:45 Narrator wrote: According to Plexa's latest blog post, the maps will be ZvT imbalanced and Flash will pwn. Jaedong's ZvT has been lacking lately and it's probably because of the maps. =D
I don't care as long as Jaedong loses.
gotta love this.
if jaedong wins it's a testimony to his great skill overcoming zvt imbalanced maps.
if jaedong loses it's excusable because of imabalanced maps.
talk about a win/win
thats a odd way to phrase it
its not that "win/win" if you just state plainly that the maps are terran favored and thus jaedong will have a tougher time than flash to win. So of course its cool if the underdog wins and not as exciting if he loses, but that doest mean Flash wont get plenty of credit (and $70,000!) if he won.
I don't really know how unbalanced the maps are in Flash's favor.
Bluestorm is played twice and is pretty Z>T (not completely, but it definitely favors Z)
Then Katrina which, unlike the way it's being made out to be, is not T>Z at all. It's definitely T=Z. The only reason it's being made to be "unbalanced" is because Flash>Jaedong consistently on this map... and that means the fault is on Jaedong, not the map.
Othello is definitely T>Z but, like Bluestorm, it's not totally in one races favor. Jaedong can overcome if he is a champion
Colosseum is the only map that is very T>Z and unbalanced.
Overall I'd say if Jaedong loses the maps were in his favor moreso than Flash. Playing Jaedong on Bluestorm twice is going to be hard as hell for Flash if Jaedong plays like he used to.
that doesnt really make sense so there are 2 balanced maps and 1 map that somewhat favors terran and 1 map that dominantly favors terran
how does that mean the maps are in jaedong's favor?
I wasn't really counting Bluestorm as too balanced. But I'd say Othello is to ZvT as Bluestorm is to TvZ.. so those balance out.
So really I take back saying Jaedong had a slight map advantage, because Colosseum is almost a sure win for Flash... but other than Colosseum I would say it's a completely fair map pool for Jaedong since he gets to play Bluestorm twice.
Please allow Gretech to stream this without fail despite their continued incompetence in the matter. My sleep schedule is completely the opposite of a normal human this summer to watch live BW, so I beseech you, stream wrk plz!
I guess I can always watch KOR but I want to maximize hits on Tasteless stream!
I really hope Flash takes this, but then it would probably be 10 pages of whining about maps. Would be cool if they both won on the maps they werent supposed to. Hoping for 5 games atleast
Oh man I'm not sure I should post this...I don't know if anyone will take it seriously...
fuck it.
Map advantage breakdown:
Othello has a 17-10 tvz record, whereas Colosseum has a 6-2 tvz record. Relatively small sample size for Colosseum, so lets just combine the two records, as we can all agree the maps are terran advantageous - 23-12 tvz for these two maps combined. This gives terran a 65.7% advantage over two maps.
Now, with the changing season, and the map tweak, it seems the former zerg advantage on Blue Storm is gone. But... though the map changed slightly, we can't know by how much, for sure, because of the 13 game sample size is quite small. So we have to count the original iteration, but regress it.
Here, I borrow from baseball, where the seasonal regression formula is r=.9994^days (which gives an r of .8 for one season prior, .6 for two seasons, and so on). Now because Starcraft is so volatile, I believe you have to regress a previous season by around 50% (noting that seasons are 90 days instead of 365). It is considerable amount, but the output looks safe: the regression equation would be r=.9924^days; at 90 days, one season, r=.499; at 180 days, two seasons, r=.249; at 270 days, r=.124; and at 365 days, r=.06. Basically what this means, is one season ago has 50% predictive value, two seasons has 25% predictive value, and so on. Only way to get an exact formula is to model the entire tlpd database, so this could be highly inaccurate...but this looks pretty good, and if i had to guess very close to reality.
As we have the methodology out of the way, regressing the previous season for Blue Storm gives us an effective 9-19 tvz, and combined with this season gives us 16-25 overall tvz. Effectively, terran has a 39% win percentage twice. Now because we regressed for Blue Storm, we have to do the same thing for Katrina. So its 20-16 tvz last season is effectively 10-8 relevant, and added to 3-3 this season we get 13-11 for a 54.2% advantage.
So the maps' win influences for terran (it should also be noted that race advantage, if one exists, is automatically factored into this, so you do not have to adjust further if such is your belief) are 39%, 65.7%, 54.2%, 65.7%, and 39%. If we simulate a series between equals, this gives Terran a 13.9% chance of sweep, a 26.7% chance of a 4 game win, and a 14.6% chance of a 5 game win, for a 55.3% expectency. For reference, zerg has a 9.6% chance of sweep, a 12.3% chance of a 4 game win, and a 22.9% chance for a 5 game win, for a 44.7% expectancy.
For fun, if Jaedong has a 5% skill advantage: terran victory: 3 games: 0.10153896 4 games: 0.223186082 5 games: 0.131477806 total: 0.456202847
On August 08 2008 10:36 On_Slaught wrote: Yes, both lost to ForGG. However, Jaedong has the advantage of actually training WITH ForGG, something Flash obviously doesn't have. I dont think we can overlook this advantage seeing as how good forgg is with research (he owes jaedong after embaressing him at MSL), and with him as a training partner I feel Jaedong has a huge edge going in.
Yeah, cause Flash wants to train with a terran to prepare against Jaedong. "Crap, my aren't my mass tanks working?!?!"
On August 08 2008 10:36 On_Slaught wrote: Yes, both lost to ForGG. However, Jaedong has the advantage of actually training WITH ForGG, something Flash obviously doesn't have. I dont think we can overlook this advantage seeing as how good forgg is with research (he owes jaedong after embaressing him at MSL), and with him as a training partner I feel Jaedong has a huge edge going in.
Yeah, cause Flash wants to train with a terran to prepare against Jaedong. "Crap, my aren't my mass tanks working?!?!"
On August 08 2008 10:36 On_Slaught wrote: Yes, both lost to ForGG. However, Jaedong has the advantage of actually training WITH ForGG, something Flash obviously doesn't have. I dont think we can overlook this advantage seeing as how good forgg is with research (he owes jaedong after embaressing him at MSL), and with him as a training partner I feel Jaedong has a huge edge going in.
Yeah, cause Flash wants to train with a terran to prepare against Jaedong. "Crap, my aren't my mass tanks working?!?!"
just wait for katrina ....
jk (I hope because jd does poorly against metal EVERY TIME)
On August 08 2008 10:36 On_Slaught wrote: Yes, both lost to ForGG. However, Jaedong has the advantage of actually training WITH ForGG, something Flash obviously doesn't have. I dont think we can overlook this advantage seeing as how good forgg is with research (he owes jaedong after embaressing him at MSL), and with him as a training partner I feel Jaedong has a huge edge going in.
Yeah, cause Flash wants to train with a terran to prepare against Jaedong. "Crap, my aren't my mass tanks working?!?!"
What other zergs can Flash train on? Lux?
To be honest the way JD is playing any zerg in the top 30 ZvT will be pretty close .. Lux ZvT is more stable at the moment ...
Either the winner will have amazing godly play, or the loser will be playing abnormally shitty, or the winner will be Flash in standard level play (for the respective parties anyways). Still, I hope Jaedong wins cause zerg are just sexy. And he has such a better picture on the screen right now in the stream. Flash looks like he's nervous or something.
On August 10 2008 15:57 Ancestral wrote: God, Jesus, Vishnu, Allah, Satan, Odin, Zeus, BoxeR, whoever will listen...
Please allow Gretech to stream this without fail despite their continued incompetence in the matter. My sleep schedule is completely the opposite of a normal human this summer to watch live BW, so I beseech you, stream wrk plz!
I guess I can always watch KOR but I want to maximize hits on Tasteless stream!
just go to the korean stream whenever lags spikes on the english one. Thats why I only watch tastesless commentarys as post-viewing. The lag is to terrible.
flash with a very early scout, around 10scout. going right down the middle, sees OL comign down, jaedong 12 hatch, and as it goes down, he gets the scv past.
On August 10 2008 18:31 thedeadhaji wrote: flash with a very early scout, around 10scout. going right down the middle, sees OL comign down, jaedong 12 hatch, and as it goes down, he gets the scv past.
jaedong had no sunks, started one asap when flash moved out, flash arrives to jaedong's nat before sunk finishes, but flash took the route thru the small choke, 1 rine dies from lings, the rest back off seeing sunk finish up.
jaedong goes into flash's main, wow NO TURRETS, gets like 4 scvs, then murders about 10 rines as they come to help, no meds lolol where are your meds!?!?!?!?
jaedong killed turrets at the raxes, delaing starport, OMG STarport almost dead barely finishes, jesus they RAPE the nat turrets with utter ease just queue clilcing
wow jaedong going PURE MUTAS rallied outside flash's nat has like 10 more that arrive and lol jaedong just attack moves into flash's mnm as he moves out lololol
On August 10 2008 18:39 GeZZa07 wrote: How long do you think before they host these games as vods? Because my stream is too laggy, but I've got people over to watch the games.
eh, i wouldnt dismiss flash's decision to go 14cc as a generic "omg flash being greedy and predictable again", b/c 14cc on a close position 2 player map is a large and calculated risk that he took after taking into consideration jaedong's style and tendencies and assessing the map and what he can do to make the 14cc work.
1 rax 2 marine FE or whatever would be the "generic greedy flash opening" that you're referring to.
On August 10 2008 18:44 sMi.SyMPhOnY wrote: the fuck olympics are 2
is that the olympics for pornstars or something?
really odd play from Flash. No adaptation to 2 hatch that I could see. Late turrets, and late acad which then means late stim & range. How are you going to battle Jaedong's mutas like that
It's fun watching without commentary. Often when I watch games, I just follow along with what the commentators are saying. Watching without it makes me actually analyze what's going on to see who's ahead.
But really though, Flash needs to change up his play, he's been doing the same greedy fucking macro builds in every single game in every single match up for way too long...
On August 10 2008 18:48 Piste wrote: why do they ally another player always in the start of the game? does they ally the one who won last game or something?
So when they choose the allied players building or unit it has a yellow circle around it and not a red one.
6 lings out, 1 ling chases scv, and hmm OH WOW scv went to the left of the map, turned around towards the middle but jaedong internepted with the rest of his llings, very nice.
jaedong kills 3 rine sright away that were kinda astray!! going into the mn mgroup itself now, kilsl a few more than backs off!!
now the lings come in as well, muta ling attack but not too good, as bats murder the lings.
jaedong gathering more and more mutas though, and flash doesnt have nearly enough turrets, losing lone turrets here and there as jaedong goes from main to nat back and forth, picking off scvs with ease.
This is like watching Bisu vs savior all over, Flash getting owned by same strat again and again, most likely, he will get pummeled in the next game as well, by low eco muta again
Two hatch muta rules! Jaedong really fended Flash with this strategy, and Flash timings are completelly screw up, because he prepared for 3 hatch muta as usually happens.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
On August 10 2008 18:56 Tinithor wrote: Lol, has Flash never played against a 2 hatch build? Ever? Well i guess the only decent Z on his team is 815 and he ALWAYS goes macro heavy...
It's gotta be running through JD's mind. A 4pool next game is like a >50% chance of victory, especially if Flash decides to go 14cc or some shit again.
Yeah, lack of good practice partners really hurt Flash, he only has 815 while Jaedong has (in order of skill) fOrGG, Lomo, and Hiya, all three with different styles of play.
On August 10 2008 18:57 xenero wrote: Yeah, lack of good practice partners really hurt Flash, he only has 815 while Jaedong has (in order of skill) fOrGG, Lomo, and Hiya, all three with different styles of play.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
On August 10 2008 18:57 tracer wrote: It's gotta be running through JD's mind. A 4pool next game is like a >50% chance of victory, especially if Flash decides to go 14cc or some shit again.
Especially on Katrina where Flash is pretty much always going 14cc unless he cheeses.
I request a 4 pool, but execute it badly so we can see more matches.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
I never even mentioned fOrGG in my post, what are you talking about? Also, 2hatch Mutas aren't allin.
Does anyone know the direct link to the live game? (so that I can view via vlc on a ibook/mac*...) read almost every page here and didn´t find link, sorry if it is already posted..
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
lol, have you ever played this game?
Are you saying that mutalisks are all in?
wut
He is agressive, yes. But that is not even near an all-in or even a cheese, its a standard ZvT playing style.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
2 hatch muta is NOT an all in, its just not completely standard. Its basically the same as losing to a 2 rax or early tech build as zerg.
game 1 was simply massing and going +1 attack on muts. game 2 was simply a muta all in. Low-econ 2 hatch, with early lings to thin down marine count. It's not just Flash mindlessly losing to common mutalisks, both of these builds are uncommon and insanely aggressive. If Flash defended those muta's, JD was screwed. No drone count, no third hatch/gas. Flash should not feel that bad losing to an all-in muta harass by JD.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
lol, have you ever played this game?
Are you saying that mutalisks are all in?
wut
He is agressive, yes. But that is not even near an all-in or even a cheese, its a standard ZvT playing style.
you are so wrong it's unbelievable. That _was_ an all-in. Sorry bro.
There's no way Flash was "timing for 3hatch muta" that game. He clearly saw JD's early gas build and fast Lair yet still didn't time his turrets. That kind of mistake doesn't happen at this level, so it was most likely Flash trying to save some eco by cutting turrets. He won't make the same mistake in game 3 (HE'D BETTER NOT I WILL BE SO ANGRY AGKH:DSLGHDG).
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
2 hatch muta is not an allin at all, he can just cut mutas and go tech, on BS he had 4 bases while pumping mutas, he was more like keeping on the tech that was working than all ining
Second game i watched it with just one eye.... so im not pretty sure, but 2 hatch muta is standard old school game.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
lol, have you ever played this game?
Are you saying that mutalisks are all in?
wut
Last game was pretty much all-in as far as I saw.
Well you must consider 2 rax an all-in then, too?
Jaedong went for quite alot of early zerglings and as far as I saw he used all his eggs to reinforce his mutalisks.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
lol, have you ever played this game?
Are you saying that mutalisks are all in?
wut
He is agressive, yes. But that is not even near an all-in or even a cheese, its a standard ZvT playing style.
you are so wrong it's unbelievable. That _was_ an all-in. Sorry bro.
Well I must confess I'm not the biggest ZvT expert, but I've always understood all-in as something that you have to succeed at or you're going to lose the whole game.
Do you really think he couldn't have survived had those mutalisks not finished the game? :o
On August 10 2008 19:01 Nintu wrote: game 1 was simply massing and going +1 attack on muts. game 2 was simply a muta all in. Low-econ 2 hatch, with early lings to thin down marine count..
Both games were 2 hatch muta. Only second game Jaedong made a ton of lings instead of drones because Flash had no bunker while in game 1 JD took a third gas.
On August 10 2008 18:59 sMi.SyMPhOnY wrote: jaedong is cutting his drones to create a quicker spire. Flash is anticipating a different timing for mutalisks. Is this a revolution build?
no its flash being a greedy mother fucker and everybody knowing it
It's a slightly looser and less literal use of the term all-in. If Flash defended, but still lost a lot, JD was still in the game, but only a low rank player would look at his drone count, his lack of third gas/hatch, and consider that build to be standard. That was as close to an all-in as you can get without literally being all-in.
On August 10 2008 19:03 sMi.SyMPhOnY wrote: 2 hatch is an all in BECAUSE it is done vs Fast CC macro build. If it doesn't kill the terran, the terran rolls over the zrg
Wrong. 2 hat muta can easily turn into a 3-4 hat lurker/ling 3 gas vs 2 gas game ..
rofl, this is how starcraft is. JD has adapted to the Terrans VERY strong midgame (he's surely not afraid of lategame), with faster mutas (tweaked builds) and better harass early on.
Flash simply isnt prepared for this, and expect to get to mid/late and do the standard imbaness and kill the zerg before he gets fully upgraded ultas with defilers.
This is StarCraft.
I feel the build he's used here gives him more options, and more control, rather than waiting and beeing afraid of a sunken break. So rather than beeing all in, it feels to simply be better and more safe.
On August 10 2008 19:05 AttackZerg wrote: Wrong. 2 hat muta can easily turn into a 3-4 hat lurker/ling 3 gas vs 2 gas game ..
You know what 'all in' means right. 2 hatch muta puts all your money on mtuas. It's like saying 5 pool isn't all in because if you hurt his econ a lot but he is still alive you will still get a longer game.
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
lol, have you ever played this game?
Are you saying that mutalisks are all in?
wut
He is agressive, yes. But that is not even near an all-in or even a cheese, its a standard ZvT playing style.
you are so wrong it's unbelievable. That _was_ an all-in. Sorry bro.
Well I must confess I'm not the biggest ZvT expert, but I've always understood all-in as something that you have to succeed at or you're going to lose the whole game.
Do you really think he couldn't have survived had those mutalisks not finished the game? :o
It obviously depends what flash had left, but JD did NOT expand with his mutalisks as is standard. There was absolutely no end-game view for JD, if there was, he would have put up the third gas as his muts came up. Even after they were up, he didn't expand. This clearly showed his intent to finish the game immediately, and by doing so, he relied entirely on it to work. If it failed, 2 base Terran to 2 base zerg, where Zerg has 10 drones per base... Trust me, that was pretty much an all-in.
Jaedong did lots of damage with his lings and he knew that. With that, mutas would be safe and very effective. If he saw that Flash got really anti air and made like shittons of turrets, he would have just powered drones and got lurkers. So its not all in but it was very very risky.
On August 10 2008 19:08 AttackZerg wrote: I love JD, but he isn't doing that awesome, flash is playing purely stupid. His passion/zeal for bw is over. He is washed up.
symphony people 2 rax 14 nexus ... and people 14 nexus pvp? .... I had no clue
definitely a little premature to say flash lost passion for BW.
yeah all-ins refer to attacks where, if they fail, the opponents swift counter-attack will win the game. just cause someone chooses a particular build, doesnt meant its an all-in. the guy has to choose a build, knowing the opponent has a possible counter build, then choose to make an attack which leaves him vulnerable
On August 10 2008 18:55 xenero wrote: Every time they've played a macro/long game Jaedong's won, so I'm sure it's more about exploiting Flash's greediness.
You think Forgg has better TvZ than Flash?
Flash is playing standard, Jaedong is doing all ins.
lol, have you ever played this game?
Are you saying that mutalisks are all in?
wut
He is agressive, yes. But that is not even near an all-in or even a cheese, its a standard ZvT playing style.
you are so wrong it's unbelievable. That _was_ an all-in. Sorry bro.
Well I must confess I'm not the biggest ZvT expert, but I've always understood all-in as something that you have to succeed at or you're going to lose the whole game.
Do you really think he couldn't have survived had those mutalisks not finished the game? :o
It obviously depends what flash had left, but JD did NOT expand with his mutalisks as is standard. There was absolutely no end-game view for JD, if there was, he would have put up the third gas as his muts came up. Even after they were up, he didn't expand. This clearly showed his intent to finish the game immediately, and by doing so, he relied entirely on it to work. If it failed, 2 base Terran to 2 base zerg, where Zerg has 10 drones per base... Trust me, that was pretty much an all-in.
Thank you for spending some of your time to explain this to me, I learned something new here.
On August 10 2008 19:09 xenero wrote: I forsee many debates about Jaedong's Bo.
Not much to debate. Standard 12/11/10 hatch/pool/gas 2 hatch mutalisks. Second game, gas and pool were switched and a few lings were thrown in, but more or less the same.
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
On August 10 2008 19:09 xenero wrote: I forsee many debates about Jaedong's Bo.
Not much to debate. Standard 12/11/10 hatch/pool/gas 2 hatch mutalisks. Second game, gas and pool were switched and a few lings were thrown in, but more or less the same.
I believe it was 12 hatch 12 gas 11 pool. IF I SAW CORRECTLY
On August 10 2008 19:08 AttackZerg wrote: I love JD, but he isn't doing that awesome, flash is playing purely stupid. His passion/zeal for bw is over. He is washed up.
symphony people 2 rax 14 nexus ... and people 14 nexus pvp? .... I had no clue
definitely a little premature to say flash lost passion for BW.
Yeah, he's only 16, if anyone's lost their passion, it's Sa... crap *goes into hiding*
I have to say, I like Tasteless' viewpoints much better than this forum's. I prefer to think of Jaedong as being good rather than flash being bad. Especially since flash will still roll all (most) of us 100% of the time.
Jaedong played with great timing. The build order was nice. saw the damage he did to the early marines, then pumped mutalisks to finish the job. fantastic.
On August 10 2008 19:11 blagoonga123 wrote: I have to say, I like Tasteless' viewpoints much better than this forum's. I prefer to think of Jaedong as being good rather than flash being bad. Especially since flash will still roll all (most) of us 100% of the time.
well he's pro and we are not..he's ranked #1 on KESPA and we are not
On August 10 2008 19:08 AttackZerg wrote: I love JD, but he isn't doing that awesome, flash is playing purely stupid. His passion/zeal for bw is over. He is washed up.
symphony people 2 rax 14 nexus ... and people 14 nexus pvp? .... I had no clue
definitely a little premature to say flash lost passion for BW.
Yeah, he's only 16, if anyone's lost their passion, it's Sa...
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
Well, I think it's safe to say a 5pool will ALWAYS be an all-in build. How much damage you do with the lings really determines whether you're all-in worked or not (all or nothing), not whether if its an all-in or not.
On August 10 2008 19:08 AttackZerg wrote: I love JD, but he isn't doing that awesome, flash is playing purely stupid. His passion/zeal for bw is over. He is washed up.
symphony people 2 rax 14 nexus ... and people 14 nexus pvp? .... I had no clue
definitely a little premature to say flash lost passion for BW.
He is the one that made Mutas sucks ZvT, with his turret placement + macro timming, he is the one that made carriers suck PvT, yet he can't do anything other then fuck up anymore. Its very sad, but his passion must be gone to drop so quickly. He is the first terran Savior imo.
Jeadong did not commit to an all-in. He just responded to the situation. He picked off many scvs and marines and decided he can win this so he did. If the situation was bad for him he would have expanded while containing with the mutas. It was all on the situation and how his harass turned out. He was not doing an all-in guys...
On August 10 2008 19:11 blagoonga123 wrote: I have to say, I like Tasteless' viewpoints much better than this forum's. I prefer to think of Jaedong as being good rather than flash being bad.
This should be obvious.
That is just like people on TL usually are; very little respect for the players. Especially if they get owned. You see this over and over.
Why would you put yourself in denial, flash has been getting worse and worse all season. His play is fucking PREDICTABLE, jaedong is exploiting it and flash isn't doing anything about it.
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
Well, I think it's safe to say a 5pool will ALWAYS be an all-in build. How much damage you do with the lings really determines whether you're all-in worked or not (all or nothing), not whether if its an all-in or not.
Best Vs July Game 1 was a 5 pool if i remember correctly....
July's initial rush was deflected, yet he took the game to mutalisks.
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
Well, I think it's safe to say a 5pool will ALWAYS be an all-in build. How much damage you do with the lings really determines whether you're all-in worked or not (all or nothing), not whether if its an all-in or not.
---- July vs BeSt? 5 pool -> into a 'semi-standart' game i would say?
On August 10 2008 19:08 AttackZerg wrote: I love JD, but he isn't doing that awesome, flash is playing purely stupid. His passion/zeal for bw is over. He is washed up.
symphony people 2 rax 14 nexus ... and people 14 nexus pvp? .... I had no clue
definitely a little premature to say flash lost passion for BW.
He is the one that made Mutas sucks ZvT, with his turret placement + macro timming, he is the one that made carriers suck PvT, yet he can't do anything other then fuck up anymore. Its very sad, but his passion must be gone to drop so quickly. He is the first terran Savior imo.
There is clearly something wrong with Flash nowadays, but I feel its just that his greediness got out of hand and he tries perfecting his build more and more and actually making it just more vulnerable.
I think the same happened to savior, who started making hive earlier and earlier and it got out of hand, too.
On August 10 2008 19:10 StrikeFLOW wrote: A Flash Slump.
You heard it here first.
Flash doesn't slump. Every player that beats him just becomes ridiculously good for that one game, and then they return back to how they normally play (unless they face Flash again).
On August 10 2008 19:13 Rucky wrote: Jeadong did not commit to an all-in. He just responded to the situation. He picked off many scvs and marines and decided he can win this so he did. If the situation was bad for him he would have expanded while containing with the mutas. It was all on the situation and how his harass turned out. He was not doing an all-in guys...
On August 10 2008 19:11 blagoonga123 wrote: I have to say, I like Tasteless' viewpoints much better than this forum's. I prefer to think of Jaedong as being good rather than flash being bad. Especially since flash will still roll all (most) of us 100% of the time.
that's b/c the majority of the pple posting are retards.
On August 10 2008 19:14 Gustav_Wind wrote: Losing to ForGG so brutally really reignited Jaedong's ZvT.
That series he goes 3 hatch mutas every game and gets destroyed, and he redesigns his builds to this more aggressive strategy that puts him up 2-0.
I seriously think it would be a lot closer if Jaedong hadn't played ForGG in MSL finals.
No Jaedong just practiced with FoRGG all day and night and figured that if he can beat someone that 3-0ed him, he would be able to beat Flash quite easily.
The real surprise is that Jaedong doesn't do this more often. His Muta control is godlike and if the Terran insists on fast expanding then he should go for this strategy because he's going to win most of the time.
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
Well, I think it's safe to say a 5pool will ALWAYS be an all-in build. How much damage you do with the lings really determines whether you're all-in worked or not (all or nothing), not whether if its an all-in or not.
---- July vs BeSt? 5 pool -> into a 'semi-standart' game i would say?
With two proxy gateways, July denying access to Best's natural completely, and Best gging after losing his zealots?
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
Well, I think it's safe to say a 5pool will ALWAYS be an all-in build. How much damage you do with the lings really determines whether you're all-in worked or not (all or nothing), not whether if its an all-in or not.
If you're that ridiculous with the terminology, 1-fact into fast expand in TvP is an all-in, in the sense of, if it works, you win, if it fails, you lose... You can't realistically use that term like that. Instead of getting caught up in semantics and junk, let's just agree that his build was relying on the muta harass to end the game, something which you don't normally rely on. In that sense, it was a risky gambit relying on 1 tactic alone, with no room for failing. In that sense, I consider it an "all-in."
On August 10 2008 19:14 Gustav_Wind wrote: Losing to ForGG so brutally really reignited Jaedong's ZvT.
That series he goes 3 hatch mutas every game and gets destroyed, and he redesigns his builds to this more aggressive strategy that puts him up 2-0.
I seriously think it would be a lot closer if Jaedong hadn't played ForGG in MSL finals.
No Jaedong just practiced with FoRGG all day and night and figured that if he can beat someone that 3-0ed him, he would be able to beat Flash quite easily.
Yes, but SC isn't a "A beats B, B beats C so A beats C" kind of game.
On August 10 2008 19:08 RowdierBob wrote: All-in is an all or nothing strat.
Either you win or you don't. 2 hatch muta is a standard zerg build =/
You can't be that literal with the term. 95% of the community consider a 5-pool to be an "all-in" build, when in reality, it depends how much damage you do with the lings. In the community, the term is usually used to describe a very risky build, where you rely on a certain strategy to work, where if it is countered effectively, you're screwed, as apposed to playing standard and safe.
Well, I think it's safe to say a 5pool will ALWAYS be an all-in build. How much damage you do with the lings really determines whether you're all-in worked or not (all or nothing), not whether if its an all-in or not.
---- July vs BeSt? 5 pool -> into a 'semi-standart' game i would say?
On August 10 2008 19:11 blagoonga123 wrote: I have to say, I like Tasteless' viewpoints much better than this forum's. I prefer to think of Jaedong as being good rather than flash being bad.
This should be obvious.
That is just like people on TL usually are; very little respect for the players. Especially if they get owned. You see this over and over.
Shut the fuck up. You of all people on this forum cannot say the word respect in any of your posts ever. You are the most combative prick on this entire forum.
On August 10 2008 19:16 Klive5ive wrote: The real surprise is that Jaedong doesn't do this more often. His Muta control is godlike and if the Terran insists on fast expanding then he should go for this strategy because he's going to win most of the time.
He does this alot, and it works 50/50 of the time, except Flash is playing so greedy he is getting raped pretty hard.
You call yourself a starcraft player? pathetic. You know that starcraft builds are always subject to game options and what your opponent does. It should be common sense that if 2 hatchery mutalisk does not do the damage that is equivalent to the time and resources the zerg has put into it, in this case 1 racks expansion terran, then the zerg will lose to the terrans over whelming economy. This is only subject to this situation because 1 barracks is a macro heavy build. The hatchery cut and drones not created cannot keep up with the terran going into mid-game. Ofcourse you can add three-fourth hatches to the equation but you're going to end up putting those hatcheries MUCH later than you would have with a third hatch build. It is different ifi you damaged the terran greatly, because then those two hatches would be up to par with terran's economy. So this is why 2 hatch against FE build is an "all-in" build , but only against a FE terran.
Now you can make an argument that it is flash's decision to make this game this way, rather than defending it the optimum way. But that's flash's style, and decision.
On August 10 2008 19:21 sMi.SyMPhOnY wrote: You call yourselves starcraft players? pathetic. You know that starcraft builds are always subject to game options and what your opponent does. It should be common sense that if 2 hatchery mutalisk does not do the damage that is equivalent to the time and resources the zerg has put into it, in this case 1 racks expansion terran, then the zerg will lose to the terrans over whelming economy. This is only subject to this situation because 1 barracks is a macro heavy build. The hatchery cut and drones not created cannot keep up with the terran going into mid-game. Ofcourse you can add three-fourth hatches to the equation but you're going to end up putting those hatcheries MUCH later than you would have with a third hatch build. It is different ifi you damaged the terran greatly, because then those two hatches would be up to par with terran's economy. So this is why 2 hatch against FE build is an "all-in" build , but only against a FE terran.
Now you can make an argument that it is flash's decision to make this game this way, rather than defending it the optimum way. But that's flash's style, and decision.
well um, no idea if flash scouting 11, but i think from what tasteles sis saying he did scout it. jaedong muta harassing. jaedong going hive now, has an evo.
On August 10 2008 19:21 sMi.SyMPhOnY wrote: You call yourselves starcraft players? pathetic. You know that starcraft builds are always subject to game options and what your opponent does. It should be common sense that if 2 hatchery mutalisk does not do the damage that is equivalent to the time and resources the zerg has put into it, in this case 1 racks expansion terran, then the zerg will lose to the terrans over whelming economy. This is only subject to this situation because 1 barracks is a macro heavy build. The hatchery cut and drones not created cannot keep up with the terran going into mid-game. Ofcourse you can add three-fourth hatches to the equation but you're going to end up putting those hatcheries MUCH later than you would have with a third hatch build. It is different ifi you damaged the terran greatly, because then those two hatches would be up to par with terran's economy. So this is why 2 hatch against FE build is an "all-in" build , but only against a FE terran.
Now you can make an argument that it is flash's decision to make this game this way, rather than defending it the optimum way. But that's flash's style, and decision.
It's an all-in build that requires a great deal of skill to execute, and with it you're hardly ever able to kill the terran outright even if it's successful. I guess that's why it isn't looked down upon as much as a 4 pool.
Now this is the game I'm talking about. Clash of the titans, rather than 1-sided rape (although, JD still seems to have such a huge advantage in both strategical and tactical aspects).
flash goes around and comes into jaedong's 3rd from teh north, jaedong goesin with ultra ling, defiler is late late late, units melt, like 5 uultras left.
vessle cloud still alive scourge cant get to them.
maybe now the flash fanboys will finally disappear. jaedong destroyed flash like july did to best. good season for zerg players, despite the unfavorable map pools
really nice played by jaedong, now the "always vote for terran" backfires but oh well, i think it was jaedongs really good play that made flash look so bad
good finals but would ve liked to see 1 or 2 more maps
On August 10 2008 19:37 brjdrb wrote: maybe now the flash fanboys will finally disappear. jaedong destroyed flash like july did to best. good season for zerg players, despite the unfavorable map pools
On August 10 2008 19:37 brjdrb wrote: maybe now the flash fanboys will finally disappear. jaedong destroyed flash like july did to best. good season for zerg players, despite the unfavorable map pools
Why should the Flash fanboys disappear? Fanboyism never dies, it's what drives this whole business
I think this really shows strong character from Jaedong, I mean right after losing to ForGG he came back and changed up his play and defeated Flash convincingly.
JD and Flash talking to each other. That's always nice to see. Flash is probably telling JD about the strats he was gonna do in the first two games, haha.
hopefully flash wasnt thinking less about this tournament since its not kepsa sacntioned. that would be disrespectful towards the hosts and sponsors with his behavior.
very well played by jaedong, im glad he won. now i just have to see the first game, which is missed due to not getting out of bed. ah, and then of course i will watch the second game again, ...and the third. omg, i gotta see all this ownage again! gomtv plz upload fast!
On August 10 2008 19:40 Tinithor wrote: I think this really shows strong character from Jaedong, I mean right after losing to ForGG he came back and changed up his play and defeated Flash convincingly.
Jaedong did win the MSL after losing to flash in the OSL and Gom Invitational.
I think he may be the one guy slump proof, at least at this point in his career.
I do not think the finals have been bad just because it has been one sided. Jaedong vs Forgg 1 game and july vs best 3 game are really great games. Ofcourse it is more exciting if the games goes to a decisive fifth game, but the games itselfs arent necessary bad.
On August 10 2008 20:03 sh02hp0869 wrote: I do not think the finals have been bad just because it has been one sided. Jaedong vs Forgg 1 game and july vs best 3 game are really great games. Ofcourse it is more exciting if the games goes to a decisive fifth game, but the games itselfs arent necessary bad.
But its Jaedong and Flash. Its already epic, and it would be even more epic if it was a 3-2
Watching Flash get so badly beaten was depressing. Seriously, I hope he bounces back, but what are the chances he's even going to meet Jaedong in a final again? Not very high if he keeps up this uninspired play...........
On August 10 2008 20:23 Kyuki wrote: Give Flash some cred... He has a great future ahead of him, and I'm sure he has the mental state to just become better and better.
Your right. I'm gay for Flash and I gotta hold the faith. He definitely has the potential and time/ability to bounce back.
I think Flash's TvZ is better than ForGG yet ForGG 3:0 Jaedong. However Jaedong is so good at adapting and Flash is so predictable, lol.
All 3 games, all greedy builds! Flash's 0:3 lost against both Jaedong and ForGG was well deserved. Jaedong and ForGG shows that the game is still about strategy, and not always about being an action game.
Some compared Flash to Boxer, but Boxer can adapt and mix up his strategies. Flash is more like Iloveoov. Once someone counter his 1 dimensional strategy, it's over.
On August 10 2008 21:16 [X]Ken_D wrote: Some compared Flash to Boxer, but Boxer can adapt and mix up his strategies. Flash is more like Iloveoov. Once someone counter his 1 dimensional strategy, it's over.
He's nicked the "Little Monster", so I'm not sure what you're on about?
Hey guys - I just got home. There was a little bit I wanted to translate but couldn't during the intro - both Jaedong and Flash have these little voice over intros that they say before they come out and walk onto that fire spinning thing...
Jaedong:
"People say that we are "Leesang". Also they often ask who is the Bonjwa. Me? I don't care about any of that. Many people really wanted to see us play against each other but actually, I think I'm the one who wants it to happen the most. Flash, let's play this one for real. We won't bother with who will win; let's just play to play. I am Lecaf Oz's Jaedong Lee".
Flash:
"In the beginning people saw me and called me the "Little Monster". Nowadays, they call me the "Last Generation". Since the days when they called me the Little Monster, I have grown and every game that I play, I grow a little more. Today I will grow some more and I will have a great game versus Jaedong. I am KTF MagicN's Young-Ho Lee".
I'm really starting to get irritated with GOM... the video dosn't even work. I'm all pumped up to see this epic final, and then the damn thing freezes. So I scroll down to see what the deal is, and of course there are spoilers so now the whole thing is ruined for me. I know people are going to say "just give them time. blah blah" but I'm just saying it would be nice if they actually tested these things to make sure they work before they post them. I mean they're making this big effort to reach out to the foreign community, yet it seems they aren't making much of an effort to make sure everything is working right. (this isn't the first time I've run into problems)
I guess I'm just pissed off right now... I do think it's awesome that they are providing the foreign community this SC content... and I think tasteless is great too.. i just had to bitch about this though...
On August 10 2008 23:12 lilsusie wrote: Hey guys - I just got home. There was a little bit I wanted to translate but couldn't during the intro - both Jaedong and Flash have these little voice over intros that they say before they come out and walk onto that fire spinning thing...
Jaedong:
"People say that we are "Leesang". Also they often ask who is the Bonjwa. Me? I don't care about any of that. Many people really wanted to see us play against each other but actually, I think I'm the one who wants it to happen the most. Flash, let's play this one for real. We won't bother with who will win; let's just play to play. I am Lecaf Oz's Jaedong Lee".
Flash:
"In the beginning people saw me and called me the "Little Monster". Nowadays, they call me the "Last Generation". Since the days when they called me the Little Monster, I have grown and every game that I play, I grow a little more. Today I will grow some more and I will have a great game versus Jaedong. I am KTF MagicN's Young-Ho Lee".
Thanks for that translation lilsusie
I saw them two talk on the stage during the ceremony aswell, and both of them seem to really respect eachother and enjoy playing vs eachother.
On August 11 2008 00:57 flag wrote: can a mod remove meegrean's post please? i came here to try to figure out how to watch the damn thing not get spoiled
haha <3 to see Flash fanboys unhappy. Live it up fairweather fans!! It's okay, soon you'll just run off to find a new winner to cheer for!! I'll be here... cheering for Stork T_T... hoping one day he gets the gold!
Gomtv website fails. Its already this long after they finished and their videos still aren't up or aren't working. Seeing as how this is the only game in weeks for their tournament, and all the hype leading up, pretty pathetic proffesionalism on their part to drop the ball on getting the vods up.
On August 10 2008 21:16 [X]Ken_D wrote: I think Flash's TvZ is better than ForGG yet ForGG 3:0 Jaedong. However Jaedong is so good at adapting and Flash is so predictable, lol.
All 3 games, all greedy builds! Flash's 0:3 lost against both Jaedong and ForGG was well deserved. Jaedong and ForGG shows that the game is still about strategy, and not always about being an action game.
Some compared Flash to Boxer, but Boxer can adapt and mix up his strategies. Flash is more like Iloveoov. Once someone counter his 1 dimensional strategy, it's over.
On August 11 2008 00:06 stk01001 wrote: I'm really starting to get irritated with GOM... the video dosn't even work. I'm all pumped up to see this epic final, and then the damn thing freezes. So I scroll down to see what the deal is, and of course there are spoilers so now the whole thing is ruined for me. I know people are going to say "just give them time. blah blah" but I'm just saying it would be nice if they actually tested these things to make sure they work before they post them. I mean they're making this big effort to reach out to the foreign community, yet it seems they aren't making much of an effort to make sure everything is working right. (this isn't the first time I've run into problems)
I guess I'm just pissed off right now... I do think it's awesome that they are providing the foreign community this SC content... and I think tasteless is great too.. i just had to bitch about this though...
well at least the stream was near perfect. just one short period of downtime but other than that it was smooth AS HELL.
Considering the fact that Flash has never beat Jaedong in a straight up traditional TvZ and relied on mostly on specific builds cough* cheese cough* to beat him in the past I don't why anyone would be surprised with the results.
Others posted in the past about how if Flash tries to go straight up vs JD he would get tooled but these posts were never heeded due to the fact that the Flash HYPE TRAIN was careening out of control and shitting all over Jaedong's skill and ability.
I mean if Flash can't even beat Luxury how is he going to beat JD?
So nice to watch JD put Flash in his place. Sadly this thread is awful quiet, where have all the fanboys gone? Have they switched trains and jumped aboard the ForGG express?
the GOMTV site is some bugged up shit atm. I was away for the weekend, came home and wanted to watch the finals, but the VODs on their site keep getting stuck at certain moments and I can't get past them.
Are there any downloadable VODs or otherwise uploaded to youtube (altho I know it's policy not to)?
I'm a Terran lover and I've always disliked Flash for his irritating one trick pony type play style. I'm kind of glad to see that he won't be the next big hope for Terran.
On August 12 2008 02:28 Indreide wrote: Does anyone know the song they were playing when Jaedong and Flash were epic rotating around the flames? Please and thank you. >>
I know Planet Hell by Nightwish was playing when they walked out, dunno if it was still that song when they were spinning around.
lol @ all the people who are disappointed by this series, weren't you the same people who were like "omg fOrGG beat Flash now we won't get our epic finals?"
Flash should just drop out of all leagues and take some time to get his act together.
Okay, I just watched games 2 and 3 of the Finals, since Game 1 wasn't working for me on the GomTV.net website.
My first reaction is disappointment: disappointment that Flash didn't play better and at least make this a competitive series. Considering all the hype that surrounded this event, it was a bit of a let-down for Flash to go down so quickly. It's not a total surprise to me, though. Recall Flash's interview after beating Stork in the GomTV Star Invitational. I can't find the exact quote right now, but Flash said something like: "I didn't prepare at all for this event."
At the time, it didn't bother me that much, and I wrote it off to different priorities. Flash was preparing to fight Stork in the 2008 Bacchus OSL Finals as well.
But for this match, it also seemed like Flash didn't prepare at all. He obviously didn't prepare to fight against a 2-hatch mutalisk build, losing both games 1 and 2 to what is now a fairly common build.
In game 2, the only explanation I can come up with is that Jaedong disguised his build well, building an unusually high number of zerglings early on. Perhaps Flash relaxed after fighting off that initial zergling rush, and mistakenly thought Jaedong had sacrificed the economy necessary to produce mutalisks so soon.
For game 3, the clearest turning point of the game was Flash not being able to take out Jaedong's top left expansion. I think Flash really could have taken out this expansion. Consider that Jaedong defended this expansion with 3 sunkens, 1 above the hatchery and 2 below it. Flash had 8 marines, 1 firebat, 1 medic, and 1 SCV sent to attack the expansion. For whatever reason, Flash chooses to build a bunker to assault the extractor of this expansion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but why wouldn't Flash assault this expansion head on? He should know that Jaedong's spire isn't done and Jaedong has no reinforcing mutalisks. If Flash didn't want to risk a head-on confrontation, a far more clever move would have been to attack the top sunken and quickly take it out, then control the expansion from above the extractor.
Instead, Flash builds a bunker, gives Jaedong time to counter with a sunken, and the top left expansion is safe. Jaedong keeps 3 gas, and the tide is quickly against Flash.
On August 12 2008 13:07 Random_0 wrote: Okay, I just watched games 2 and 3 of the Finals, since Game 1 wasn't working for me on the GomTV.net website.
My first reaction is disappointment: disappointment that Flash didn't play better and at least make this a competitive series. Considering all the hype that surrounded this event, it was a bit of a let-down for Flash to go down so quickly. It's not a total surprise to me, though. Recall Flash's interview after beating Stork in the GomTV Star Invitational. I can't find the exact quote right now, but Flash said something like: "I didn't prepare at all for this event."
At the time, it didn't bother me that much, and I wrote it off to different priorities. Flash was preparing to fight Stork in the 2008 Bacchus OSL Finals as well.
But for this match, it also seemed like Flash didn't prepare at all. He obviously didn't prepare to fight against a 2-hatch mutalisk build, losing both games 1 and 2 to what is now a fairly common build.
In game 2, the only explanation I can come up with is that Jaedong disguised his build well, building an unusually high number of zerglings early on. Perhaps Flash relaxed after fighting off that initial zergling rush, and mistakenly thought Jaedong had sacrificed the economy necessary to produce mutalisks so soon.
For game 3, the clearest turning point of the game was Flash not being able to take out Jaedong's top left expansion. I think Flash really could have taken out this expansion. Consider that Jaedong defended this expansion with 3 sunkens, 1 above the hatchery and 2 below it. Flash had 8 marines, 1 firebat, 1 medic, and 1 SCV sent to attack the expansion. For whatever reason, Flash chooses to build a bunker to assault the extractor of this expansion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but why wouldn't Flash assault this expansion head on? He should know that Jaedong's spire isn't done and Jaedong has no reinforcing mutalisks. If Flash didn't want to risk a head-on confrontation, a far more clever move would have been to attack the top sunken and quickly take it out, then control the expansion from above the extractor.
Instead, Flash builds a bunker, gives Jaedong time to counter with a sunken, and the top left expansion is safe. Jaedong keeps 3 gas, and the tide is quickly against Flash.