Star Trek: Into Darkness - Page 22
Forum Index > Media & Entertainment |
ShAsTa
Belgium2841 Posts
| ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On June 02 2013 22:30 Vorenius wrote:They got so much right, but decided to take the easy way out instead of trying to make something original. This had potential to be the first great star trek movie since for ever, but making a dumb action movie takes less effort so they did that instead. Then again, fans might complain that they messed with continuity or something if they made something entirely new. | ||
Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 03 2013 00:28 LegalLord wrote: Then again, fans might complain that they messed with continuity or something if they made something entirely new. Yeah, I know. If you try to do something hard then there is a chance that you might fail. That's why they didn't do it. In any case, complaining about continuity wouldn't make sense, as they created a new time line in ST2009. | ||
a176
Canada6688 Posts
There are some specific quirks in the writing that really irked me (spoilers): + Show Spoiler + The damned torpedos. Writing in Dr. Marcus (Kirk's wife). She just kind of appeared out of nowhere. Was never really 'questioned' or confronted for her illicit entry onto the Enterprise aside from that useless 10s scene with Spock. Physical attributes of Khan; I understand there is no written rule on how to cast roles. But this guy never screamed 'augment' to me. And I think I would have been a bit more comfortable if they found someone who had just a little color in their skin. Old Spock. Was not needed in this movie aside to pander to older star trek fans. Can we just let the new timeline stand on its own please? In the end I think they should have gone with a more character / drama driven story. That's what people enjoyed the most of Wrath of Khan, the psychological warfare between these two commanding men. Khan's character here was sufficiently mysterious, though mostly from bad writing, but not sufficiently evil. They never evolved the Kirk vs Khan conflict. There was never a true Kirk vs Khan moment in this movie. There was never a true climax to their conflict and thusly no real feeling of victory from the struggle. | ||
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Sorry guys but you can't legitimize this with "ST2009 had a new storyline start". This doesn't work. However even if I were to overlook this MASSIVE GLARING HOLE that makes all this literally impossible there's still the Khan character itself that was poorly done in this movie. Khan was supposed to make you feel helpless. You needed to feel the weight of his intellect, how he got the jump on kirk and just relentlessly hunted him. The weight of the intelligence and the ability was not felt at all in this story. There were no incredibly ingenious traps or references to things you might have to look up because they're a bit over your head. This is the very base, the core of the character Trekkies called "Khan" and a huge part of why they almost unanimously chose him as the best Trek villain ever. Haven't you heard of the butterfly effect. I'm only being 40% trolling on this. Butterfly effect can only affect the future, never the past :/ I don't know of any temporal mechanic that would allow reverse time flow or something and thus allow influences on events to travel backwards. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On June 03 2013 04:15 sCCrooked wrote: Sorry guys but you can't legitimize this with "ST2009 had a new storyline start". This doesn't work. See, even with a "new timeline" continuity is a big issue. | ||
woody60707
United States1863 Posts
On June 03 2013 04:15 sCCrooked wrote: Khan was a genetically modified warlord of the genetically modified being identified as the most superior hundreds of years before the incident with Kirk's father. It was at least 2 centuries if memory serves. Why the HELL did events hundreds of years after they set themselves adrift on the Botany Bay get changed by that black hole romulan atrocity? Sorry guys but you can't legitimize this with "ST2009 had a new storyline start". This doesn't work. However even if I were to overlook this MASSIVE GLARING HOLE that makes all this literally impossible there's still the Khan character itself that was poorly done in this movie. Khan was supposed to make you feel helpless. You needed to feel the weight of his intellect, how he got the jump on kirk and just relentlessly hunted him. The weight of the intelligence and the ability was not felt at all in this story. There were no incredibly ingenious traps or references to things you might have to look up because they're a bit over your head. This is the very base, the core of the character Trekkies called "Khan" and a huge part of why they almost unanimously chose him as the best Trek villain ever. Haven't you heard of the butterfly effect. I'm only being 40% trolling on this. | ||
Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On June 03 2013 04:15 sCCrooked wrote: Khan was a genetically modified warlord of the genetically modified being identified as the most superior hundreds of years before the incident with Kirk's father. It was at least 2 centuries if memory serves. Why the HELL did events hundreds of years after they set themselves adrift on the Botany Bay get changed by that black hole romulan atrocity? Sorry guys but you can't legitimize this with "ST2009 had a new storyline start". This doesn't work. However even if I were to overlook this MASSIVE GLARING HOLE that makes all this literally impossible there's still the Khan character itself that was poorly done in this movie. Khan was supposed to make you feel helpless. You needed to feel the weight of his intellect, how he got the jump on kirk and just relentlessly hunted him. The weight of the intelligence and the ability was not felt at all in this story. There were no incredibly ingenious traps or references to things you might have to look up because they're a bit over your head. This is the very base, the core of the character Trekkies called "Khan" and a huge part of why they almost unanimously chose him as the best Trek villain ever. The story began to change about 20 years before J.T. Kirk got his feet on the enterprise. Given that the Botany Bay has no warp drive it is likely they didn't get that far from the pov of a civ with warp drive. So there is enough time for Marcus to find Khan, abuse him for his powers and Khan going rogue. Or did I get anything wrong? PS: Afaik also Kirk found the Botany Bay by chance, same as Marcus. | ||
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 03 2013 07:21 Hryul wrote: The story began to change about 20 years before J.T. Kirk got his feet on the enterprise. Given that the Botany Bay has no warp drive it is likely they didn't get that far from the pov of a civ with warp drive. So there is enough time for Marcus to find Khan, abuse him for his powers and Khan going rogue. Or did I get anything wrong? PS: Afaik also Kirk found the Botany Bay by chance, same as Marcus. This is not an acceptable explanation either for several reasons. It still ignores the glaring problem of events hundreds of years in the past being affected by something that hasn't happened and indeed won't happen yet. I'm no temporal mechanics expert, but from a my understanding, this is impossible. Even without warp drive, the S.S. Botany Bay was sent into space along with other ships in a deep cryogenic freeze. It was discovered by Kirk almost around the same time as this movie was supposed to take place but a long way from earth out in deep space. Hence it would mean that the Botany Bay was still somewhere in deep space long away from where Carol Marcus would have any business whatsoever. Its probably the most glaring hole in the whole story and yet I don't see any sites or lists of "what went wrong" in this movie. The Romulan event would have no impact on Khan's lifetime in any way shape or form. The only way for it to make sense is if they just had re-made a newer version of Wrath of Khan with the same story points and the same doomsday weapon being fought over. What we have is an atrocity that can't possibly make sense and ultimately destroys the single greatest villain in all of Star Trek into a generic unimpressive "bad guy". Imagine if the 2nd new-age Batman movie came out with the Joker being portrayed without any sort of personality traits that made him "insane" and no sort of make-up whatsoever in any scenes. This is basically what they have done to the Trek community faithful to them as long as since the 60s. | ||
a176
Canada6688 Posts
On June 03 2013 10:32 sCCrooked wrote: This is not an acceptable explanation either for several reasons. It still ignores the glaring problem of events hundreds of years in the past being affected by something that hasn't happened and indeed won't happen yet. I'm no temporal mechanics expert, but from a my understanding, this is impossible. Even without warp drive, the S.S. Botany Bay was sent into space along with other ships in a deep cryogenic freeze. It was discovered by Kirk almost around the same time as this movie was supposed to take place but a long way from earth out in deep space. Hence it would mean that the Botany Bay was still somewhere in deep space long away from where Carol Marcus would have any business whatsoever. Its probably the most glaring hole in the whole story and yet I don't see any sites or lists of "what went wrong" in this movie. The Romulan event would have no impact on Khan's lifetime in any way shape or form. The only way for it to make sense is if they just had re-made a newer version of Wrath of Khan with the same story points and the same doomsday weapon being fought over. What we have is an atrocity that can't possibly make sense and ultimately destroys the single greatest villain in all of Star Trek into a generic unimpressive "bad guy". Imagine if the 2nd new-age Batman movie came out with the Joker being portrayed without any sort of personality traits that made him "insane" and no sort of make-up whatsoever in any scenes. This is basically what they have done to the Trek community faithful to them as long as since the 60s. I agree there's a plot hole in that they never explained how and when Khan is awoken by Marcus. But since its been well over 20 years since the timeline changed, one can assume it happened during that time. | ||
DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
I do basically agree on the Khan point though. I wish he was a little more than a generic bad guy. You could even argue he wasn't even the most dangerous or devious bad guy in the movie (Marcus). One thing I find pretty odd now when thinking back on it is how the fact that Kahn destroyed a large chunk of San Fran and killed countless people barely merits mentioning in the end. Funny how in a movie so filled with non stop action you barely even notice such a thing... | ||
a176
Canada6688 Posts
On June 03 2013 11:05 DannyJ wrote: I don't really care at all about that "plot hole". Big deal, in this version the Botany Bay wasn't as far out as in the original. If you are going to be upset over stuff like that I'd be more upset that Kronos appeared to be literally 10 minutes away. I do basically agree on the Khan point though. I wish he was a little more than a generic bad guy. You could even argue he wasn't even the most dangerous or devious bad guy in the movie (Marcus). One thing I find pretty odd now when thinking back on it is how the fact that Kahn destroyed a large chunk of San Fran and killed countless people barely merits mentioning in the end. Funny how in a movie so filled with non stop action you barely even notice such a thing... I think that's because the destruction wasn't so apparent. You never see any real large scale damage, or death. Just a lot of close-ups. Honestly, I was waiting for him to say "Activate Self Destruct Sequence" and watch a giant fucking warp core explosion on the surface of the Earth. That would have been a pretty nice end. | ||
KOFgokuon
United States14883 Posts
For all you know khans blood was used to save everyone and just not mentioned | ||
TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
If anything, previous Trek history should be easy to reconcile. Star Trek explored multiple realities before. | ||
Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On June 03 2013 10:32 sCCrooked wrote: This is not an acceptable explanation either for several reasons. It still ignores the glaring problem of events hundreds of years in the past being affected by something that hasn't happened and indeed won't happen yet. I'm no temporal mechanics expert, but from a my understanding, this is impossible. Even without warp drive, the S.S. Botany Bay was sent into space along with other ships in a deep cryogenic freeze. It was discovered by Kirk almost around the same time as this movie was supposed to take place but a long way from earth out in deep space. Hence it would mean that the Botany Bay was still somewhere in deep space long away from where Carol Marcus would have any business whatsoever. Its probably the most glaring hole in the whole story and yet I don't see any sites or lists of "what went wrong" in this movie. The Romulan event would have no impact on Khan's lifetime in any way shape or form. The only way for it to make sense is if they just had re-made a newer version of Wrath of Khan with the same story points and the same doomsday weapon being fought over. What we have is an atrocity that can't possibly make sense and ultimately destroys the single greatest villain in all of Star Trek into a generic unimpressive "bad guy". Imagine if the 2nd new-age Batman movie came out with the Joker being portrayed without any sort of personality traits that made him "insane" and no sort of make-up whatsoever in any scenes. This is basically what they have done to the Trek community faithful to them as long as since the 60s. Kirk finds the Botany 2267, Marcus finds the Botany before 2259. So there are at least 8 years difference. I still don't know what exactly the "big glaring plothole" should be? Somewhere in the movie Adm. Marcus said that they send out ships to explore space for new tools (?) to fight the Klingon menace. It seems like someone on the ship Nero destroyed altered the course of one ship that found Khan. Also Carol Marcus got involved when her father refused to give her access to the torpedoes. I'm not sure if she was aware of (the nature of) Khan. Given the few scenes she had I would conclude that her main interest were the torpedoes. Honestly, I was waiting for him to say "Activate Self Destruct Sequence" and watch a giant fucking warp core explosion on the surface of the Earth. That would have been a pretty nice end. I'm glad that they didn't do that because iirc they always have the antimatter explosions far too small. (except on one TOS episode where Kirk lures a monster into an antimatter trap) | ||
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 03 2013 22:18 Hryul wrote: Kirk finds the Botany 2267, Marcus finds the Botany before 2259. So there are at least 8 years difference. I still don't know what exactly the "big glaring plothole" should be? Somewhere in the movie Adm. Marcus said that they send out ships to explore space for new tools (?) to fight the Klingon menace. It seems like someone on the ship Nero destroyed altered the course of one ship that found Khan. Also Carol Marcus got involved when her father refused to give her access to the torpedoes. I'm not sure if she was aware of (the nature of) Khan. Given the few scenes she had I would conclude that her main interest were the torpedoes. I'm glad that they didn't do that because iirc they always have the antimatter explosions far too small. (except on one TOS episode where Kirk lures a monster into an antimatter trap) Honestly I'm quite baffled that you don't understand what the plothole is when you yourself just explained it rather eloquently. Read your first paragraph and I couldn't really have said it better. In the first one yeah they had weird ear-bugs or whatever but it set up the story! A main bridge character was affected which started the whole "its personal" feeling between Kirk and Khan. When you have such a deep rivalry and you're supposed to feel someone who is at the very least comparable to "The Joker" from Batman, you really have to take a step back and realize we all got a big steaming pile of shit when you make comparisons to what's considered "good". How are we supposed to feel intimidated by someone we haven't witnessed torturing masses and enjoying it? Now we don't even know how the hell the timeline got altered allowing Khan to even show up! Isn't the ORIGIN of how your villain and his entire army got out of cryogenic stasis a rather important plot hole to just not have shown in great detail? The best part of the Wrath of Khan was it was in fact a sequel. For those of you who don't know, there was an episode in the original series where Khan was revived after being found by the Enterprise and after they found out who he was, he went about attempting to conquer the ship and so he and his people were marooned in a system called "Ceti Alpha" which had a good class M planet on it for them to live on. That planet was destroyed and Khan lost everything except a handful of his people between that and settling on the very harsh neighboring world. There was loss and he felt hatred for decades on Kirk and Starfleet for it. This is a great origin story and starts everything nicely. Kirk and Khan are identified as clear rivals and if you want more on their past, you could just go to the episode in the original series to see more of the origin of their hatred for each other. There's torture from the bad guy in what he sees as the beginning of payment of Kirk's debt to him for causing his fate and if affects someone in the main cast and it becomes into more personal as Carol Marcus and Kirk's son come into play. Without all this in there, there's really not enough understanding of the story. As stated before, we should've gotten the Joker, we got yet another generic villain who seems to have simply come from left field without any particular details being given. | ||
Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On June 04 2013 02:07 sCCrooked wrote: Honestly I'm quite baffled that you don't understand what the plothole is when you yourself just explained it rather eloquently. Read your first paragraph and I couldn't really have said it better. In the first one yeah they had weird ear-bugs or whatever but it set up the story! A main bridge character was affected which started the whole "its personal" feeling between Kirk and Khan. When you have such a deep rivalry and you're supposed to feel someone who is at the very least comparable to "The Joker" from Batman, you really have to take a step back and realize we all got a big steaming pile of shit when you make comparisons to what's considered "good". How are we supposed to feel intimidated by someone we haven't witnessed torturing masses and enjoying it? Now we don't even know how the hell the timeline got altered allowing Khan to even show up! Isn't the ORIGIN of how your villain and his entire army got out of cryogenic stasis a rather important plot hole to just not have shown in great detail? The best part of the Wrath of Khan was it was in fact a sequel. For those of you who don't know, there was an episode in the original series where Khan was revived after being found by the Enterprise and after they found out who he was, he went about attempting to conquer the ship and so he and his people were marooned in a system called "Ceti Alpha" which had a good class M planet on it for them to live on. That planet was destroyed and Khan lost everything except a handful of his people between that and settling on the very harsh neighboring world. There was loss and he felt hatred for decades on Kirk and Starfleet for it. This is a great origin story and starts everything nicely. Kirk and Khan are identified as clear rivals and if you want more on their past, you could just go to the episode in the original series to see more of the origin of their hatred for each other. There's torture from the bad guy in what he sees as the beginning of payment of Kirk's debt to him for causing his fate and if affects someone in the main cast and it becomes into more personal as Carol Marcus and Kirk's son come into play. Without all this in there, there's really not enough understanding of the story. As stated before, we should've gotten the Joker, we got yet another generic villain who seems to have simply come from left field without any particular details being given. I'm slowly but surely getting the impression that we are talking about different events. Kirk finds the Botany 2267, Marcus finds the Botany before 2259. Wrath of Khan is set in 2285. This movie isn't meant to replace wrath of Khan but rather the events of their first meeting. Since it is set before the "original timeline" meeting there is no problem in the slightest with consistency. It might be that you didn't like the movie/storytelling/w.e. given your rant about the character of Khan but I fail to see were there is any logical contradiction between the original series and Into Darkness which can't be explained by the alternation of the timeline. It may be explained badly/shortly but I'm quite sure that Khan explains it when he is imprisoned on the Enterprise that Admiral Marcus found him and then woke him up to use him as a weapon(developer) against the Klings. Where is the timeline altered 200 year before that? Edit: Given that Kirk didn't wake up Khan by choice but to safe his life when his stasis chamber failed it is possible that another crew wouldn't wake them up at all but return them to earth within their chambers. There Khan is woken up and forced to work for Adm. Marcus. | ||
Gnosis
Scotland912 Posts
On June 03 2013 12:05 TOloseGT wrote:If anything, previous Trek history should be easy to reconcile. Star Trek explored multiple realities before. Yes. Expecting goatees in the next movie. | ||
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 04 2013 03:07 Hryul wrote: I'm slowly but surely getting the impression that we are talking about different events. Kirk finds the Botany 2267, Marcus finds the Botany before 2259. Wrath of Khan is set in 2285. This movie isn't meant to replace wrath of Khan but rather the events of their first meeting. Since it is set before the "original timeline" meeting there is no problem in the slightest with consistency. It might be that you didn't like the movie/storytelling/w.e. given your rant about the character of Khan but I fail to see were there is any logical contradiction between the original series and Into Darkness which can't be explained by the alternation of the timeline. It may be explained badly/shortly but I'm quite sure that Khan explains it when he is imprisoned on the Enterprise that Admiral Marcus found him and then woke him up to use him as a weapon(developer) against the Klings. Where is the timeline altered 200 year before that? Edit: Given that Kirk didn't wake up Khan by choice but to safe his life when his stasis chamber failed it is possible that another crew wouldn't wake them up at all but return them to earth within their chambers. There Khan is woken up and forced to work for Adm. Marcus. We're really not at all talking about different events. I must be saying something that's throwing you off then. Kirk finds it in 2267 true, Marcus supposedly happens upon it now, but once again it makes no sense given Marcus's character (if you know her from the original series, you know her field has nothing to do with Khan's people or any research pertaining to it). I understand this was supposed to be the beginning of their meeting and that's what I mean. Its pathetic The origin story in this movie is virtually nonexistent in all forms. You're not given any reason to think he's vastly superior to our heroes and thus is an incredibly difficult foe to overcome. You're not given any drama like betrayal of a crewmember during Khan's conquest, you're not given lengthy torture scenes where Khan has almost total power and is going about getting what he wants. Without all of these sorts of scenes (and this isn't even Wrath I've referred to, its just the original episode meeting), the Khan character simply does not exist. As far as I'm concerned, this villain just happened to be named Khan. Its not Khan from the original series and its not Khan from the 1982 sequel movie because this is the only way I can make it work in my head anymore. As for 200 years in the past, you're still not understanding that Khan is an ancient figure. He's not from the 23rd century at all and therefore lived an entire lifetime long before the Romulan event happened. We're meant to believe that somehow that event changed something that altered a ship's course during missions to intercept it sooner, but we're not given any clear details or the actual awakening in detail. You can't just vaguely toss your villain in there with no past. At the very least, there should've been an extensive explanation period while they're trying to figure out who this guy is so they can beat him but we didn't even get that. Its not an passable story no matter how you place it. Huge key elements of basic storytelling are missing and it completely dumbs down the Khan character until you have what we got here. A completely generic villain with no particularly interesting or emphasized qualities. Its pathetic because there's no origin story even close to what the original TV episode showed and its missing far too many pieces of the puzzle to be Wrath of Khan either. I mean ffs you're having to piece this incredibly vague scene together yourself! Shouldn't the movie kind of have done that for you so you wouldn't have to go way out of your way to make it make sense? | ||
Wordsmith
United Kingdom93 Posts
| ||
| ||